Impending Doom

[Shibblet]

Are Linux users the only people who sees the impending doom coming on the horizon?

Microsoft has been slowly changing their OS over the past few years, and are finally making one of the most difficult steps. i.e. "How to Boil a Frog."

This particular step is going to be quite a hike in temperature.

Anyone can sell the need for a faster processor, HD Resolution, and/or UEFI Bios. Those are simple.

The TPM 2.0 Chip is entirely for Microsoft to control and monitor your computer.
They can, at this point, require any software loaded, to be specifically from the Microsoft Store.
And because Mac OS, iOS, Linux, Android, and ChromeOS are available, they are not considered a monopoly. However, they do truly control most of the computers out there.

I'd be willing to bet that within the next 5 years, all computers will be data mining as part of some required update for Windows...

[grahammechanical]

The TPM 2.0 Chip is entirely for Microsoft to control and monitor your computer.
They can, at this point, require any software loaded, to be specifically from the Microsoft Store.

If that proves to be correct it will likely mean that it will be impossible to install a dual boot with Linux on machines pre-installed with Windows. People said similar things years ago when they first heard about Secure Boot. But Microsoft allowed Linux boot binaries to be verified and be given a Microsoft signed key that was registered in the machine's secure boot database. I believe that Canonical played a part in fixing up that arrangement. Perhaps Canonical will make a similar approach regarding TPMs.

Microsoft documentation says this:

Before it can be used for advanced scenarios, however, a TPM must be provisioned. Starting with Windows 10, the operating system automatically initializes and takes ownership of the TPM. That means that IT professionals should not have to configure or monitor the system.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...iences/oem-tpm

Who makes these chips? A supplier who purchases machines and then installs Ubuntu on them should not have a problem unless Windows has been previously installed on the hardware. If the chip manufacturer is willing to provide the data it might be possible for Ubuntu to be modified to do the provisioning. Then we could have a situation where a OEM supplied machine with Ubuntu pre-installed could block Windows from being installed on it. But I do not think that Canonical would do something like that.

Regards

[DuckHook]

In my opinion, the danger that you cite is very real.

20 years ago, few would have thought that Google and Facebook would grow into multi‑trillion dollar monsters whose market value is almost entirely predicated on their ability to completely strip‑mine our data. There were a few futurists prescient enough to warn us, but they suffered the fate of Cassandra.

Considering also MS's history of avarice and amorality and there is every reason to expect the worst.

I'm not willing to take your bet.

The big question remains: what to do about it?

[Tadaen_Sylvermane]

I think it's a danger. I also think that this danger is eye of the beholder. Not everyone is as paranoid about security nor do they need to be. I don't personally care much myself. Everyone has different things that matter to them. To the average user a computer is nothing more than a tool. If they can get their work / email / games done then so be it. They don't much care how it works as long as it does work. Ignorance is bliss.

Linux people naturally have a curiosity that leads us to care more about this stuff. My choice isn't ignorance as much as I just don't care. It's quite irrelevant to me because everything can be compromised and nothing is truly safe and I accept that. Just because it's Linux doesn't mean a damn thing. I think it's the nature of a global networked world. As long as people have an interest in screwing other people over then it won't change. I don't lose sleep over it. At the end of the day if you can't afford for it to be seen it shouldn't be on any network capable device.

But Microsoft allowed Linux boot binaries to be verified and be given a Microsoft signed key that was registered in the machine's secure boot database

Thankfully they don't control hardware and there is plenty of companies and people out there doing open source hardware designs that aren't locked into this crap. Pay a bit more but that is the world we live in.

[DuckHook]

…I don't lose sleep over it. At the end of the day if you can't afford for it to be seen it shouldn't be on any network capable device.

You are right of course. If we start losing sleep over it, then for all intents and purposes, we will already have lost. No one should feel so despondent that we succumb to despair or inertia. We do have some power over what data we surrender and Linux has its part to play in that.

Thankfully they don't control hardware and there is plenty of companies and people out there doing open source hardware designs that aren't locked into this crap. Pay a bit more but that is the world we live in.

Right again. It may even give OEMs like System76, Pine and Purism a good shot in the arm. You give me hope. Much appreciated.

[grahammechanical]

there is plenty of companies and people out there doing open source hardware designs that aren't locked into this crap. Pay a bit more but that is the world we live in.

These independent companies are not necessarily more expensive. Go to a big name brand and they will charge you a fortune because their idea of a Linux user is a Linux programer. So, they offer High end developer machines with a corresponding high price. But there are other companies that provide Linux machines (including Ubuntu) for a reasonable price and they are not low specified either. If you are an ordinary user and not fooled by the Developer Edition expensive trap then search OMGUbuntu. That is what I did when I wanted a Linux/Ubuntu laptop.

Consider this offering for innovation.

https://frame.work/gb/en

Getting back on topic, here is a link with information as to which motherboards already have a TPM

https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...pm-windows-11/

Note the links to AMD and Intel CPUs. Our defenses have already been infiltrated.

Regards

[TheFu]

TPM is recommended by the Linux Foundation along with secure boot to have the most secure Linux workstation.
https://www.linux.com/news/how-choos...tion-security/

TPM is a standard, not a MS-specific thing.

Virtual machines have virtual TPM capabilities. They aren't perfectly implemented yet, but getting better. Win11 forcing TPM will solve that for the rest of us too.

MSFT started their surveillance years ago, when they initially released the Win10 beta and changed the EULA for Win8 and Win7. That's when I stopped updating all Windows computers at home and dropped MS-Windows from consideration as an OS for the future. Not everyone can or cares to make that decision.

Remember the BSA? They still exist and visit companies looking for license problems. BSA is mainly a MSFT group and companies that use volume licensing agree to this oversight in their contract. In 2004, one CEO/Owner was made enough after a visit disrupted his business to tell his IT people to replace all Windows software - and they did: https://blog.jdpfu.com/2011/01/20/ho...s-in-small-biz

In 2015, I said that MSFT was firing all their customers. https://blog.jdpfu.com/2015/09/08/mi...heir-customers

And don't forget that "cloud computing is careless computing." https://www.networkworld.com/article...says-open.html

[forrestcupp]

I haven't been able to use Linux for a lot of years because of specialized software that I regularly use. But I was exclusively on Linux (mostly Ubuntu) for several years, starting with the second release of Ubuntu (Hoary Hedgehog). The only point I want to bring up is that people were making these same predictions 15 years ago. They were angry that Microsoft was working to stamp them out and predicting impending doom even back then.

But it never happened! From my perspective, the opposite has happened. Linux has done nothing but advance. Gaming in Linux is much better than it used to be. Hardware support is ever advancing. And other than the TPM 2.0 thing (which screwed a lot of Windows users over, too), Microsoft seems to have actually become more friendly to Linux over the years.

Microsoft is supporting Win10 for several more years for the people who don't have TPM 2.0 hardware. And it's definitely not in their best interest to force everyone to only buy software from their store. In fact, they've shown the opposite of that with their actions. That became obvious when they decided to also sell their games on Steam, as well as their own store.

Linux users have always been the "little guy" from a market share perspective. And with that comes a paranoia that everything is going to fall out from under them. But take it from a guy who hasn't been in the middle of the emotion of it, your fears of impending doom are unfounded. Microsoft isn't going to screw you over and make it impossible to run Linux. Linux will keep progressing, just like they always have.

[TheFu]

Linux users have always been the "little guy" from a market share perspective.

Only on the desktop.
On servers and phones, Linux has won, even when MSFT tried to kill the phone maker that was selling Linux-based (Debian) phones in 2008 - before Android.

MSFT being slightly nice is relatively new. I assume it is a trap, based on 40 yrs experience with that company. When they buy a company I am using, I close my accounts and wish they didn't get the data held there. OTOH, if my job depended on using MSFT stuff, my view would be completely different. Paychecks are a good thing. No paycheck is a bad thing and most other considerations don't hold the same weight for regular people during their working years.

[forrestcupp]

Only on the desktop.
On servers and phones, Linux has won, even when MSFT tried to kill the phone maker that was selling Linux-based (Debian) phones in 2008 - before Android.

MSFT being slightly nice is relatively new. I assume it is a trap, based on 40 yrs experience with that company. When they buy a company I am using, I close my accounts and wish they didn't get the data held there. OTOH, if my job depended on using MSFT stuff, my view would be completely different. Paychecks are a good thing. No paycheck is a bad thing and most other considerations don't hold the same weight for regular people during their working years.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being only on the desktop. But it's usually only the Linux desktop users that are predicting impending doom. My only point is that people have been saying that for a very long time, and it never happened. People were freaking out back when motherboards started gravitating more to UEFI instead of BIOS. They said Microsoft was trying to use that to force Linux out of existence. The reality was that UEFI was a legit evolution, and it brought progress to the limitations of a BIOS. The other reality is that the Linux world just progressed and adapted with it, and it wasn't really the end of Linux. Linux isn't going anywhere. TPM 2.0 isn't the doom of Linux any more than UEFI was.