# The Ubuntu Forum Community > Other Discussion and Support > Ubuntu Women >  Why "Ubuntu Women"?

## ekimus

Hi there,

I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.

A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like 

"Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"

This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.

When I talk to an indivudual I don't care what sex he or she is. I try to keep my speech at the same level they do. I try to be patient when I know more on topics, and try not to aks questions where I could find the answer myself, so that I don't start annoying other people.

So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.

PS: I normally don't put in this disclaimer but this is a special topic to talk on so: I'm not a native english speaker, if there is something with a really offending wording in there:

1. tell me (and pls also tell me how it's right)
2. try not to start flaming.

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## kleeman

This is a strange post- sounds like you are a bit nervous about sex roles. Personally I just tell my wife she is full of it when I think she is and I receive the same treatment in return. This is healthy! My wife is a very strong feminist and never expects me to modify my (usually coarse) behaviour   :Smile:   :Smile:  and I don't expect her to modify hers. What's the big deal, we are all adults aren't we? Of course stupid macho aggro is another matter.

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## endy

From what I recall of my education men and women do tend to use language quite differently and situations like this crop up all the time.

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## Teroedni

Agree with Kleeman there

qoute
So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.
qoute


You dont need to care about that. It seems this is something you are making up.
 :Brick wall:   :Brick wall:   :Brick wall:

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## poptones

I rarely even read the name of the person I am replying to before replying to them. Not only do I not care if the person is a man or a woman, I don't care how old they are or even if they are a "friend" or not.

if you think you should not care... then don't. It's really as simple as that.

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## kvidell

I think what the OP is trying to ask is why did we feel the need to make a special place for our lady posters.
What makes them so "special" that they get their own forum. Why don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)

I wondered this originally but the mods posted some good reasoning for it (which is easily found since this forum is still comparitively small), and thought it was a cool networking strategy anyway.

Does that clear anything up or had you already gathered that?

And to poptones... Re: "I rarely read the name of the person who posted before": I rarely read the forum I'm in.
I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads".
I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.

Cheers,
- Kev

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## poptones

> I rarely read the forum I'm in. I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads". I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.


Ditto. But one thing I DO check is "threads I am in." And on that note I hope one of the moderators sees this and can respond: why is this not a "quick link?" In order to check up on discussion I have participated in I have to click search, advanced search, wait for THAT page to load (I am on dialup), click in "member name" and type my nick, then click "search" - every single time I visit here - just to keep track on discussion I have participated in. 

This should be a single click or at most two. Am I overlooking something here? 

I guess I could be... I didn't even know this place has a "women's forum." Are men allowed? What's to stop me from making an alt-ID and joining the fray? I must admit it does seem a bit silly and, in that it implies women need protection, I find it a bit offensive.

ROTFL. See? I didn't even know I was _in_ the women's forum...

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## ekimus

EDITED:

kvidell is right, this is my point:

ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
ubuntu for gays | lesbians
ubuntu for transsexuals
ubuntu for physically handicapped people
ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
ubuntu for SuSE users *g* (no harm ment)

why are women so special and the others not?

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## endy

Re: poptones

Going off topic here but I believe you can if go your your "User CP" on the forum, click on "Edit Options" and then locate the "Default Thread Subscription Mode" you can set how you want to subscribe to thread you reply to or start. Then use the "Quick links" button and select "Subscribed Threads".  :Smile:

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## primeirocrime

I think this section of the forums is not inteded to be a safe environment for women or a place where women adress pre-concived representations of what is being a woman. It's more of a place for discussing-promoting-devise projects, ideas and concerns in Ubuntu but with a prespective of women that continue to be in lesser number in the IT world. Realising that there is huge population of men developing software and that not always they take a perspective diferent from them. It's not that Ubuntu Women is addressing GUI stuff like more pink and more flowers or watch your language! Just read a bit what the women in ubuntu women are talking about. 

And I do not really see the need for every other spawn of ubuntu forums, we could go to a infinite number of option here and it's not about that I think. Ubuntu Women is not intended to be a kind of segregated place [«oh yeah, that is the girls club over there«] 

Women are half of humanity, and in that group there are gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world contained.

This not to say that ubuntuforums main sections are male only areas [ with gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world]

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## poptones

Aha! I did indeed miss that. Thanks endy!

Re the other stuff... I just don't agree, but I also don't think it's worth fighting over and , now that I realize where it was coming from that's probably where this will end up. I looked at that other thread where PT outlines the "reason for this forum" and the very first post pretty much confirmed exactly what I said: this forum implies women need some sort of "protection" and the messages here would be particularly scrutinized in that regard. 

I'll tell you up front I'm a participant in some other online communities many here would probably find pretty objectionable, but I am _all about_ equality legal and economic equality. And that doesn't mean ignoring people's  sexuality or their gender, in fact I believe this is the biggest failing of the old school judeo-western "feminism." 

But in a this forum it was just never an issue.. or so I thought. Like I said, most of the time I don;t even look at the person's name, I address their views or their technical issue and that's it. But segregating people for whatever reason just focuses attention on the thing you are trying to "equalize." 

Also... I remember now, a few days ago, seeing something about "ubuntu women" on the front page. To be honest I thought it was just a thread about babes, like the bsd babes. Go figure!

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## poofyhairguy

> Hi there,
> 
> I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.
> 
> A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like 
> 
> "Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"
> 
> This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.
> ...



Hey you ever heard of the thing called PR? Its when you make symbolic actions for the sake of looking good, even if those actions don't do more than improve your image.

Guess what I consider the women's forum to be....

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## TravisNewman

> Hey you ever heard of the thing called PR? Its when you make symbolic actions for the sake of looking good, even if those actions don't do more than improve your image.
> 
> Guess what I consider the women's forum to be....


 I don't want you to watch what you say because there's a woman around. I want there to be a way for women to feel comfortable posting in every section of the forums. If you have to "be careful" then it's reverse sexism. I've just seen a lot of places that WILL be more sarcastic and arrogant and condescending toward women, and that's what we need to stop. I want people to speak to men and women equally.

I give a rats ass about PR. I came up with this forum when talking with a female on the forums. We thought it was a good idea so I rolled with it and brought Kassetra on board. Kassetra's opinions on the matter differ from mine to an extent.

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## poofyhairguy

> I give a rats ass about PR. I came up with this forum when talking with a female on the forums.


Fine.  I believe you.

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## rwabel

> Fine.  I believe you.


 The thing is, I even don't know if the person's entry is from a women or a man or if I help a women or a man. 
Most IMPORTANT, I don't care who the other person is (what gendre, where he comes from, etc)!
I agree, it's sometimes interesting to know more about a person.

Just out of curiousity, why should a women be uncomfortable in the ubuntu forum? It's about ubuntu, linux, computer etc and not about gendre!

I'm not against a women forum. I just hope it was not started because they feel uncomfortable here!

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## TravisNewman

" I'm not against a women forum. I just hope it was not started because they feel uncomfortable here!"

I haven't heard about any women here who feel uncomfortable, but in other linux forums, and tech forums in general, along with tech jobs, there's a lot of sexism. We just want the women who may have had previous bad experiences to feel comfortable here.

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## super

at least this thread answered some question for me:
where are all the females? and is there some weird male only rule to these forums?

consider me much comforted.   :Wink:

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## ekimus

> at least this thread answered some question for me:
> where are all the females? and is there some weird male only rule to these forums?
> 
> consider me much comforted.


that's also something interesting, in most "women"-forums i saw it seems that the only people who care about it (including me) are men.

there was also some post stating that this is about ubuntu (or whatever forum) not about women which I like more. This should be a technical section imho, not something where I need to care about political issues. but that's just a personal opinion.

I have to admit it's kind of a standard question I ask whenever I find a forum which is basically about technical stuff with a special women section. It's always interesting to hear the opinions (not starting a flamewar but talking on an somewhat objective basis).

so long
\ekimus

btw: I just convinced my girlfriend to use ubuntu  :Smile: . One more user *g*

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## poptones

I finally figured it out: Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

We're Martians. And M/A/R/R/S.. needs... women.

_Put the needle on the record when the song beats go like THIS!_

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## endy

While we're inviting more women to mars can we also put a request in to stop earth dumping their trash  here too  :Wink:

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## dataw0lf

> While we're inviting more women to mars can we also put a request in to stop earth dumping their trash  here too


I'd rather have it dumped on Mars then in my backyard.  My 2 cents (I don't plan on going to Mars soon).

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## Gnobody

Yes, but are there any hot ones out there?  :Razz:   :Very Happy:   :Razz:   :Wink:

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## gretchen

> Yes, but are there any hot ones out there?


Sadly, although you are joking and I'm sure mean no harm, this is the reason that many women don't feel comfortable posting on linux forums, asking questions on irc, mailing lists and so on.  A woman asks a question and gets asked out or put down instead of an answer.  It's extremely frustrating after the first couple times.

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## poptones

Gretchen, may I offer something from the other side? I used to work online in the MSN "comic chat help" room. And though I am a dude I tend to feel more comfortable in the company of women and so I usually adopted a femal presence. In CC help I was "babelogue" (named after a favorite piece of music by my hero, Patty Smith) and so I know pretty well how that can be. If a guy even thinks you are a woman it can change the equation.

It really comes down to standing your ground. But there are plenty of guys who get belittled and put down for asking questions too - this is the plight of the newbie and it's not a male female thing it's a "geek" thing that still attaches itself to linux most of all because linux is so much more likely to attract those who are zealous in the old school "hacker ethos." It's that "wild west" attitude Poofy was talking about in another discussion we were having. But remember: even the wild west had plenty of levi wearin, straight shootin' wimmins.

Take solace in this: those who are most likelly to put you down for asking "newbie" type questions or would take the opportunity to try to flirt... well, there's a good reason they're doing that here, online: because in real life they're too geeky to get to touch a real live girl...

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## endy

No one can find out anything about you on the internet unless _you tell them_  :Wink:

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## darkmatter

We definitely need more women. The lack of a real female presence is part of the reason why my wife is 'iffy' towards Linux.

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## manicka

> Sadly, although you are joking and I'm sure mean no harm, this is the reason that many women don't feel comfortable posting on linux forums, asking questions on irc, mailing lists and so on.  A woman asks a question and gets asked out or put down instead of an answer.  It's extremely frustrating after the first couple times.


 Well said, gretchen  :Smile:

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## poptones

> The lack of a real female presence is part of the reason why my wife is 'iffy' towards Linux.


Interesting. I know a pretty tech-illiterate mom and her teenage daughter who have been using linux more than a year now and I don't think they plan to go back. They don't hang out in tech forums because they're not interested in that stuff. Mom plays games and trades patterns and daughter surfs and chats and shops for music downloads. 

So.. what do you mean by "lack of... presence?" Lack of presence where?

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## endy

I hear alot right now about not enough women being in IT, but I was thinking that maybe they just aren't interested that much and prefer to be high fly lawyers, brain surgeons and astronauts etc... If so what's wrong with that?

I never see any women digging up the road or working for refuse collection, should we try and entice them into that too? Of course not.

My point is if there is no discrimination by employers hiring women that go for IT jobs (which can't be if the industry wants more women) and the IT industry is healthy (it could always be better but it's not exactly dying) then what exactly is wrong? Seems like nothing to me.

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## TravisNewman

What's wrong is that my wife, who works at office max, gets asked for someone who knows what he's talking about all the time, when she does know what she's talking about. People have come right out and asked her "What, you don't have any guys who know what they're talking about working today?" It's not just in linux, its everywhere.

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## darkmatter

> Interesting. I know a pretty tech-illiterate mom and her teenage daughter who have been using linux more than a year now and I don't think they plan to go back. They don't hang out in tech forums because they're not interested in that stuff. Mom plays games and trades patterns and daughter surfs and chats and shops for music downloads. 
> 
> So.. what do you mean by "lack of... presence?" Lack of presence where?


I mean the lack of the "technically literate" presence of women in the forums. Although there are plenty of technically literate ladies out there, it seems like most do not actively participate in providing assistance. (My wife seems more comfortable asking women for help - heck, she doesn't even like asking me for help, but that could just be the fact that I get far to technical about things)

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## Stormy Eyes

> From what I recall of my education men and women do tend to use language quite differently and situations like this crop up all the time.


Damned right. A great many women will, when take care to say _exactly_ what I mean in order to avoid confusion, will give me **** about being "too literal". Having had a mother who tried to raise her sons to be gentlemen, I refrain from telling them that on my planet, words have specific meanings. Other women, however, seem adept at speaking male, and my literal speech doesn't faze them.

Luckily for me, my wife speaks male.

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## Stormy Eyes

> why are women so special and the others not?


Because the loudmouths among the "fair sex" tend to make a big ruckus when they see us men get together and end up with a _de facto_ "men only" group, whether it's Linux users, gamers, or cops. It's the same sort of thinking that will have a woman going for a "girls' night out" while complaining about how her man likes to play poker (or D&D) with the guys once a week. Some women think that they deserve to be treated like queens, and get snarly when the men in their lives think otherwise.

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## manicka

guys,

Some of you are doing a wonderful job of scaring off any potential female members of this forum. Some respect for each other (male or female) wouldn't go astray.

let's cut down on the aggro and be nice to each other  :Smile:

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## TravisNewman

Amen.

Stormy, you know I love you, but I disagree with the last post here. I do agree that there are a great many women like those you mentioned, but that's not all. 

Furthermore, let it be said that women are not more special than men, as ekimus mentioned. It's just that I don't think there are many men in the ubuntu, linux, or tech communities who feel their descriminated against because of their sex. I've seen first hand the descrimination against women here (though not often) and in other communities (more than I'd like) and even in real life at work, etc, and the aforementioned example of my wife in Office Max. Some women don't make it easy, sure. People are people and they're as varied as jelly belly jelly beans. More varied, even. But when there's consistent discrimination, I think something should be done about it.

Again, stormy eyes, I don't think you're discriminating against anyone (you're blunt and honest with everyone, and I appreciate that), I just don't agree with you on this point.

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## jdong

Umm, if you want to start a "Ubuntu Men" project, go ahead, and we'll list you here  :Smile: 

Nobody's being discriminated against!

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## endy

> What's wrong is that my wife, who works at office max, gets asked for someone who knows what he's talking about all the time, when she does know what she's talking about. People have come right out and asked her "What, you don't have any guys who know what they're talking about working today?" It's not just in linux, its everywhere.


I agree, _that_ is wrong. 

I think that it would be nice if in my lifetime men and women could truely live equally with only their abilities relevent to the task at hand being important, as opposed to any other discrimination whichever form it takes.

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## poptones

Endy, discrimination simply means telling one thing from another. Life is full of discrimination - do I buy a Ford or a chevy, do I run Windows or Linux, am I attracted to this person or that...

What PT and most of you are talking about is _bigotry_, not merely discrimination. Yeah, the world would be a lot happier place without so much of it... but look where we are now: in a "separate but equal" section of this forum. 

People segregate themselves all the time. That's not how you defeat bigotry, that's how you foster it.

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## manicka

> . People segregate themselves all the time. That's not how you defeat bigotry, that's how you foster it.


It depends on how you discriminate and the underlying issues. Positive discimination has been one of the ways that bigotry has been successfully dealt with on many issues.

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## endy

The point I was trying to make is that only the skills required for the job should be taken into account. No other factor is important, not gender, not race, not disability or anything. If the person is best qualified for the job, even if it means a department full of people from the exact same demographic, then they should get it. Idealistic isn't it?

Anyway I also think the word you may have been looking for is _prejudice_. A _bigot_ is someone who doesn't listen to anyone else's opinion when they disagree. Sounds like the average family member at christmas to me  :Wink: 

(Note to self: Proof reading is good)

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## poptones

big·ot 
    One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


Yes, it's pretty idealistic the scenario you describe. For one, because we are all human and therefore subject to a thousand different emotional _predjudices_. Example: applicant A has a college degree with great honors and several years experience. Applicant B has no degree but a few more years of experience. The boss also was a "self made man." Applicant A is a woman. Applicant B is a man. Applicant B gets the job because the boss feels more akin to this person. The fact he is a man and the other a woman has nothing to do with it, it's the _common experience_ the two share as self motivated entrepreneurial types who choose to work "outside the system" that makes the decision. Sharing common experiences is an important factor in team building - but things are not likely to appear so "understandable" to the other applicant.

Just a few panels ago in this very thread someone was talking about the way men and women use language. People *are* different, and that *is* going to impact the way we deal with one another. It's (at best) naive to pretend things can be any other way so long as we continue to be human beings. Be confident and proud in your person and others will respect that - and them that don't won't respect anyone including themselves anyway... why allow someone like that to hold power over you?

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## poptones

> Positive discimination has been one of the ways that bigotry has been successfully dealt with on many issues.


Really? In what ways? I live in the deep south. All I see from "positive discrimination" is how it breeds even deeper resentment in the segment that feels threatened. You cannot outlaw bigotry any more than you can outlaw love.

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## Stormy Eyes

> Amen.
> 
> Stormy, you know I love you, but I disagree with the last post here. I do agree that there are a great many women like those you mentioned, but that's not all.


Fair enough. It's not just the more obnoxious women, the ones who expect royal treatment at all times, that are at fault. I certainly didn't mean to imply that women deserve all the blame.

There's plenty of crow for the men to eat. There are guys who, for whatever reason, feel threatened by the presence of women in what used to be a "guys only" club. Add competence on the part of the women, and you may get insecure guys who are probably thinking, "Damn, this woman's as good as I am. She doesn't need me, but  I need to be needed, so I'll cut her down to size."

Let's face it: we guys are trained to show a stiff upper lip when there are women around. Asking a woman for help, for some guys, contradicts their macho self-image.

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## manicka

I'd like to request that this thread be closed before it gets out of hand.

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## TravisNewman

"Let's face it: we guys are trained to show a stiff upper lip when there are women around. Asking a woman for help, for some guys, contradicts their macho self-image."

Amen. That's the issue at hand I believe, or at least one issue at the core of the problems.

This section of the forums isn't a segregation. Most of us in here at this point are men. If this were a "no-boys-allowed" section, and if there were no women in the other parts of the forum, then I'd agree with this being a problem. As it is, this is no more segregation than posting topics about backports in the backports section. One major concern tsjoklat and I had when creating the idea for this was making sure segregation doesn't become a problem.

poptones, yes, I think sexism is overdiagnosed, just like ADD in kids. People like to use it because it's an easy answer. However it does exist and we're trying to work it out.

manicka, I understand your concern about this thread being closed, but I want to attempt to alleviate concerns as best I can before closing it. lets all just make a conscious effort to not let the thread get out of hand.  :Smile:

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## aveline

I've been on this forum um... what? a week? two?  In this one thread I've seen hm... *counts..* 5 posts I find either a) intimidating b) rude or c) downright stupid... and some of you wonder why women have a hard time posting on technical lists/linux forums?  Panicked thumb "gets it" as do a few others here...but for the rest...you don't seem to understand.  

I'm sorry but male privilege (sp?) exists...as does sexism and other things.  Some women find mens attitudes, literal speech, general demeanor just freaking intimidating. Period.  Not all of us do & I'm certainly putting my own little ass out here posting this & saying what I have.  But then I've dealt with men far more than women and seen alot worse behaviours from grown & teen males so my skins a lil thicker than maybe some womens.  *The ultimate hell: come out as a gay woman among teen/young male gamers... I did & I survived.*

sigh I'm rambling... so I'm gonna shut up now.

aveline

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## TravisNewman

aveline-- congrats on coming out, especially since you made it through the (I imagine)  horrid taunting of younger and more immature men. You're doubly screwed I'd imagine, because not only do you get the "stupid girl" comments but you probably get a lot of "OMG can I watch?" crap too. 

I do speak literally, but I think I have a good grasp of language, and sometimes what seems to be most literal isn't the best way to get a point across. Language is meant to be understood, and the best way to get someone to understand is the way you should say that. So I'm rambling now too. Point being, every person, not just every gender or sex, speaks and understands differently, so clarity is important and understanding is important. Sorry if my clarity is failing me, it's after 3 am.

Do try to understand people who handle this situation poorly. Tempers get heated when a controversial topic such as this comes up, but it's an important one.

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## regeya

Lamest.  Thread.  EVAR.

Guys, if you're so insecure that you need to cut women down to size to feel superior...welcome to the 21st century.  Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'...welcome to the 21st century.  Both groups, lock yourselves in a room and try to catch up with the rest of us.

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## TravisNewman

_"Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'"_

And Travis said with his dying breath, "They... missed... the... point.... *gaaack*"

EDIT: sorry if that was too over the top. It's just a bit frustrating when I've said repeatedly that this is to help women be comfortable with integrating with the community, and hell, even help men feel more comfortable with women integrating into the community if the case presents itself. There's no special place to play.

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## Knome_fan

http://people.debian.org/~dnusinow/posse.jpg

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## aveline

> _"Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'"_
> 
> And Travis said with his dying breath, "They... missed... the... point.... *gaaack*"


*falls over laughing*... so true... hehe

oh and ya I got alot of the "can I watch!?" stuff...among other stuff. *sighs*  Believe me you would not wanna hear some of the stuff I've gotten because of my sexual prefs...thats not even getting into some of hte other stuff in my life.

Ty for the welcome Thumb.  Its appreciated.

aveline

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## TravisNewman

> http://people.debian.org/~dnusinow/posse.jpg


 That's one of the most varied groups of people I've ever seen *L*

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## senorcheaposgato

Alright, here's my two cents.

*first cent:* This isn't about elitism, segregation, private clubs, or sexism.

*second cent:*  This is about comfort in what is, unfortunately, a male-dominated sphere.

For the past year, I've worked at a job that involves selling electronics--networking, drives, printers, digital cameras...standard fare computers and accessories, you know what I mean.  And yes, I can confirm that there is a prejudice against women in technology.  (_DISCLAIMER:  Not all customers have this predjudice, and some customers are just assholes to everyone.  I'm not making a blanket statement, I'm simply saying that it exists._)  In *my* experience, most men would prefer to talk to another man about their technology woes; similarly, most women prefer to talk to another woman.  

In extreme cases, I have dealt with customers who are looking to buy their first computer/set up their first network who say they don't need _my_ help with anything, but could I bring over one of the male associates?  I pride myself on the fact that I know what I'm talking about most of the time...I also know enough to ask for help when I need it.  I bust my ass at my job, but that kind of lack of respect makes me really, really happy that I'm done with them in 11 days.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that the women (or female impersonators) involved in this project aren't doing it to feel special or separate.  I really do believe that it's comfort.  For me, just knowing that there are at least a few other women who use Ubuntu and are on the forums is encouraging.  Look, isn't the entire Ubuntu forum (or any forum) a group based around a common interest?  This isn't a threat to anyone.  This is another place to discuss...whatever.  Who knows.  As far as I'm concerned, people posting here (or anywhere else) can be male, female, gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual, transgender, animal, vegetable, mineral, or any combination of the above.  _They're still people_.  

Well, unless they're vegetables or minerals.  Or some animals.  You get the point.

----------


## poptones

> And yes, I can confirm that there is a prejudice against women in technology.


The real irony there is so much of it is _made_ by women. Every electronic assembly line I have ever seen has been predominantly staffed by women. When you see the Chinese factories on tv, who are the workers? Mostly women. 

When I was first starting out professionally some twenty-odd years ago I had a boss who I love dearly to this day. He was awesome - supportive, understanding - a true friend. He valued my intellect and always stood up for me when the bean counters would try to get me canned because I wasn't typical engineer material. And one of my most shocking memories of him was once when I was overdue on a project and under real pressure to deliver a prototype I had spent the day soldering components to my one and only copy of a printed circuit board that had just come in. Ordinarily I would have given it to our line boss who would, in turn, have given it to his best tech to assemble, but I felt particularly pressured to get everything done "my way" - even though a line tech, who did this stuff for hours every day, would have been able to assemble the board quicker. 

So he comes over to me in the afternoon and asks "did you get the prototype debugged yet? " and when I said no and explained why he asked "why the hell did you spend half the day putting it together? That's women's work..."

----------


## endy

> <snip>
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, people posting here (or anywhere else) can be male, female, gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual, transgender, animal, vegetable, mineral, or any combination of the above.  _They're still people_.  
> 
> Well, unless they're vegetables or minerals.  Or some animals.  You get the point.


Hey, I'm a vegetable you insensative clod! I also think I saw a few animals roaming around here too... Anyway, if those men don't want your help because you're a woman then that's their loss. Really, how pathetic. Also I notice your location says your in the USA, I wonder if any girls from other countries could share their experiences. I wonder if this is more common in the states right now?

In reply to poptones: I'm sure you realise what I said was wishful thinking, I don't ever expect to see true equality in the world after all, we're screwed from the start; we're only human  :Wink:  However I like to think in terms of "Aim for the stars and you'll make it to the moon."

A very interesting topic so far and so I hope no one forces it to get closed.

----------


## Stormy Eyes

> I've been on this forum um... what? a week? two?


Welcome. Don't mind me; I can be harsh at times, but I try only to be harsh with people who deserve it -- regardless of gender.




> I'm sorry but male privilege (sp?) exists...as does sexism and other things.


I won't deny that sexism exists. I try not to indulge in it, myself, because my parents taught me that it's not the gentlemanly thing to do. But if being white, blue-eyed, and male confers privileges, you can be damned sure that I am going to take advantage. I'm out for myself, you see, and I try to play the hand life's dealt me with as much panache as I can muster.




> Some women find mens attitudes, literal speech, general demeanor just freaking intimidating. Period.


And some men (myself included), find womens' attitudes intimidating. What would you think and feel if you wanted to earn somebody's respect only to find out that nothing you could do would ever be good enough?

Now, I'm a man and I like women, but there are too many women who insist on telling me something's wrong and then giving me the cold shoulder when I offer to help. There are too many women who either belabor the obvious, repeat themselves _ad nauseum_, or just won't get to the frigging point.

Of course, being a man, I probably just don't understand women. But I'm trying, which is more than can be said for many women when it comes to men. Now, being a man and something of a romantic, I am going to do things that may **** some women off. I am going to hold the door for you. I am going to speak literally and precisely, and if you say something that doesn't quite make sense to me, I am going to try to figure out exactly what you mean. I will smile at you if I think you're pretty. 

What I won't do is ask you to find a man to answer my question if you're capable of answering it yourself. Nor will I deliberately patronise you. Catch me doing it, and I'll apologise. And, if you'll pardon my Arabic, I will assume that you know your **** until you prove otherwise.




> *The ultimate hell: come out as a gay woman among teen/young male gamers... I did & I survived.*


You're braver than I am. If I wasn't straight, I'd do my best to keep it on the down low. I wouldn't tell strangers, and I certainly wouldn't tell my family unless they asked me point-blank if so-and-so was a lover and not just a friend. And I certainly wouldn't tell brat gamers who aren't man enough to lose gracefully, but instead call superior players "faggots".

Personally, I don't care if you like men or women. It's none of my business, and I certainly won't ask if I can watch. If I wanted to watch two women playing together, I'd rent a porno.

----------


## senorcheaposgato

> The real irony there is so much of it is made by women.


Yes, in fact, it is.  I can't argue that.  Unfortunately, it is made by women in a manufacturing sense.  While assembly lines may be staffed in large part by women, how many are involved in the creative process?  Unfortunately, I think we all know how small that number is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way belittling their contribution.  Theory is all well and good, but without the product, it's not too much use.  However, I do find it unfortunate that the production seems to be, as your boss said, perceived as "women's work."  Hopefully that kind of attitude is changing.

The bottom line is that women are a marginalized group within technology innovation.  I think all of us have a variety of theories as to why this is; for myself, I see it in terms of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Bear with me here, I'll try to explain.

Ok, this is a theory that I hold to be true in a language/educational sense.  Take reading, for example.  In the US, kids are expected to learn the basics of reading in kindergarden, and refine those skills over the next several years.  If, however, a child does not acquire these basic skills at the "right pace," the child is almost certainly doomed to mediocre academic performance in the future, simply because so much of later education depends on strong reading abilities.

So.  The fact that women have been marginalized from the beginning of computing, as well as from our own early experiences, many women don't have the basic skills to reach a high level.  I would suppose that the beginnings of computing were male dominated simply because of the social climate of the times.  Women weren't really allowed to be in any academic field (generally speaking), so it wasn't just that we were kept out of computing.  

No foundation, no acheivement--does that make sense?

Society and history have interacted in such a way that women do not feel that technology is a field open to them.  Yes, I do think that it is a choice for women not to go into the field, conscious or not.  Unfortunate?  Yes.  Self-perpetuating?  Definitely.

So that's my theory.  Feedback, please!  What do you think?

----------


## charlieg

I think that for an 'Ubuntu Women' sub-section of the forums, an awful lot of men seem to post in it.

And just to excuse myself, I was just browsing out of interest!

----------


## TravisNewman

> I think that for an 'Ubuntu Women' sub-section of the forums, an awful lot of men seem to post in it.
> 
> And just to excuse myself, I was just browsing out of interest!


 Well, that's the beauty of it. This section of the forum deals with women in the community, but it isn't only FOR women. There are easily more men here than there are women, and they have different opinions about the subject.

I am the one who came up with the idea for this section, and I'm a man myself  :Smile:

----------


## poptones

> So. The fact that women have been marginalized from the beginning of computing, as well as from our own early experiences, many women don't have the basic skills to reach a high level.


I disagree with most of this right out of the gate. 


"Computing" is not something innate. A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother, you cannot make the argument "it's always been like this" because in every case of every individual it starts anew. There are many homes where the parents are technically phobic and so neither the males nor females have a chance to learn the technology, and I have met plenty of technically illiterate men who just never seem to "get it."

When I was young and about to marry, my ex (darn, now you know how that story ends) invited her best friend (of course) to be maid of honor at our very small, private ceremony. later we went to a restaraunt for reception and as she walked past the floodlights in front of the place she gave everyone quite a show. You see, she had never in her life worn a dress before and her mother had not told her to wear a slip! She was the only daughter in a family of boys and her mother was not a "girly girl." So, Cathy grew up learning "boy stuff." She was 17 and had a Dodge she had restored and hotrodded - when it came to cars she knew things, but when it came to "being a girl" she didn't even know how to dress.

The mom and daughter near here... mom took classes and such but still doesn't really seem to "get it." She prefers gnome and always seems a bit afraid she's going to break something. Daughter digs KDE, tweaks it out and, when she wanted to rim MP3s and couldn't figure out how to get MP3s in linux, she installed WINE and used iut to run winamp and some ripping tool she knew from windows. I didn't even tell her about WINE, much less how to go about it. But she installed it and configured all on her own. This is a 16 year old girl who lives in a home where the internet access is doled out in minutes, where dad would prefer the computer (and the TV set) were carried off to the dump, where mom has had a computer for years but still knows little more about it than what games she likes to play. They keep their only child locked away from the world like some Rapunzel. Even though she's a girl and comes from a family where gender identities are likely to be strongly encouraged (most of the family are christian fundamentalists) she's a strong willed kid who is into anime (especially yaoi - boy-boy relationship stories), has a healthy distrust of the government, and has a very intuitive sense regarding computers. She's a true geek - even though, nearly 18 now, _still_ is being kept in that tower and so has never really had the chance to embrace it.

Just two (three?) examples of the fallability of stereotype. I've met plenty of women who seem to lack confidence in computers (like mom up there) but they also just happen to lack confidence in most things. It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more _generalized_ gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence.

And by the way, this is NOT just the product of antiquated conservative thinking. When I was in my twenties I was a dancer (ok, a male stripper) and I also dj'd sometimes at the club where my girlfriend worked (who, obviously, was also a dancer). Her sister (who ALSO was a dancer) had a daughter, and that daughter was, as you might expect, being raised with values that did not fit well within much mainstream thinking. Her mother was very independant and she had raised her daughter to be that way. She was an awesome kid, very confident in herself _and_ her gender and sexuality - in other words, she didn't see being a girl as a disability, but as a source of empowerment. You might be surprised by how many of those "liberal feminists" she came into contact with took just as much offense at her attitudes and upbringing as you might expect of conservative mainstream christians.

----------


## TravisNewman

poptones, you did READ senorcheaposgato's post right? You seem to be agreeing with her.

"I've met plenty of women who seem to lack confidence in computers (like mom up there) but they also just happen to lack confidence in most things. It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more _generalized_ gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence."

This is exactly what she was saying, or at least, that's what it seemed to me.

I know you like debate and sometimes like playing devil's advocate, but you say straight out that  you disagree and then go on to show evidence of the point you're arguing against? It doesn't make sense.

----------


## senorcheaposgato

> "Computing" is not something innate. A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother, you cannot make the argument "it's always been like this" because in every case of every individual it starts anew.


I never meant to imply that computing is innate.  Some things are (basic reflexes, usually gone before adulthood).  Everything else has been sacrificed for the sake of potential.

I'm not saying that women lack a crucial gene that causes men to understand cars, computers, and professional sports.  I'm saying that women aren't encouraged to have that drive.  As you put it:




> It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence.


Yes, traditionalized gender roles are a problem.  Even though I wasn't raised to lack confidence and I don't follow stereotypical gender roles, cultural history and society still affect my life every day.

The fact is, women didn't get in on the ground floor.  No, that's not the only problem.  But it HAS had an effect.

The fact is, women are NOT encouraged to learn how things work and how to fix them.  

The fact is, women feel uncomfortable with technology because of society's reaction, as well as the sexist views held by some "computer guys."  Let me make it perfectly clear that I do not think that all men with computer skills look down on women in technology.  Some do, just as with every other field.

Look, nature vs. nurture is really a pointless debate.  It's both.  It's context.  It's interaction.  A multitude of factors contribute to any problem, and women in computing is no different.  Sure, we could argue their relative importance until the end of time.  I really don't see a huge difference of opinion, Poptones.  I don't think I was clear in my previous post:  I don't think computing is an innate skill, I don't think that the patriarchial structure of society is wholly responsible for male-dominated industries, I don't think that society's expectations are the only problem.

Everything is interaction.  Everything is context.  Yes, it's a new start with each individual--*potential*.  But no decision is made in a vacuum: it's impossible to make any choice without the influence of society, expectations, personal goals, etc.  

Free will...hm.  Not as free as I'd like to think.

----------


## poptones

> I'm not saying that women lack a crucial gene that causes men to understand cars, computers, and professional sports. I'm saying that women aren't encouraged to have that drive.


Yes, but I'm saying that doesn't matter. This argument is way too common - it's "societal" and "cultural." They said the same thing about being gay, that it's because they are "raised gay" somehow, that being molested in childhood or being taught to fear members of the opposite sex makes people gay. The same thing is also commonly said about child abusers and pedophiles when, in fact, *objective* science shows the direct opposite to be true - that people who are molested as children are less likely to molest, that people who were abused as children are more likely to police themselves to avoid repeating that mistake. (Not that this cannot follow a "tree," however - children are likely to become adults who carefully safeguard against the faults they percieve in their parents, which can cause an overcorrection - and so, _their_ children, rebelling against _those_ faults, end up making the same mistakes as the grandparents)

My mother encouraged me to pursue my interests in science and in music, but she died when I was a child. My father never encouraged me in anything, except financially, and I never asked him to buy me a doll so I have no idea how he would have reacted. Keep in mind, though, I was a child long before the pop cultural rise of anime. Were I that same boy of ten or twelve today I might indeed be asking for an  anime model kit rather than a funny car. Such things simply did not exist when I was a boy (I suppose that would have at least put his mind to rest regarding me being attracted to girls).




> The fact is, women feel uncomfortable with technology because of society's reaction, as well as the sexist views held by some "computer guys."


But... why is this seen as a "problem?" How often do we hear of special programs directed at encouraging men to settle down from their careers and become house-husbands?  

Like I said, the reason those guys often try to pick up on women is because it's just part of who guys are. Guys are driven to sex and this is not some social construct - gay men tend to be just as aggressive among one another as straight men toward women. When I was working phone support I often found myself being flirted with by gay men - and guess what? I enjoy it. I like being flirted with and I would sometimes respond in kind. I'm not gay but many of my friends are and, frankly, since I'm not twenty five any more I kind of miss being checked out not just by the cute girls but even the old men at the gym. Anyway, I'm supposed to be editing not adding more crap here...




> I really don't see a huge difference of opinion, Poptones. I don't think I was clear in my previous post: I don't think computing is an innate skill, I don't think that the patriarchial structure of society is wholly responsible for male-dominated industries, I don't think that society's expectations are the only problem.


And apparently I wasn't enirely clear about what I disagreed with, at least so far as what I _thought_ I read in your original comment. What I mean is that it IS "nurture" but it's not so much a matter of encouraging this interest or that, but of engendering confidence. And I am not so certain that is even possible to the degree in women as it is in men, simply because the male tendency is to completely overestimate one's self. (That tendency is not just because "boys are raised that way" for I can assure you I was not and though I lack confidence I still too often suffer overconfidence to a degree I have rarely seen in any woman. )

And I am _certain_ (but of course unable to objectively prove, for if that were possible I would be telling this to everyone from Oprah to Nelson Mandela)  that the difference in the sexes plays a part in it - to wit: hormonal and physiological differences have been shown to lead to certain "stereotypical" differences. I don't know anyone who would not agree that higher levels of testosterone seems to directly lead to certain behaviors - and, speaking as a former bodybuilding enthusiast I know from experience it affects both women and men in very similar fashion. But men are "blessed" with higher levels of this through much of their early lives, which is going to lead to early reinforcement of thought patterns and behaviors, which leads to more repetition of certain behaviors...

I don't think women's lack of confidence is just a matter of nurture is what I mean. and that lack of confidence will play an important role. I'm tempted to _really_ break this down (ie racial and cultural) for more specific examples, but I fear that might, likewise, _really_ trigger a flame war. Anyway, think of those hormonal balances and how they might tend to vary given differing genetic lines. Societies and cultures shape evolution for humans just as much as for animals, therfore it is reasonable to expect that in certain cultures women who are docile and submissive are more likely to reproduce and that men who are aggressive and successful in some capacity (even if it is just at domineering and exploiting others through force) will also be more likely to reproduce. What impact do you expect this would have on evolution in that geography? In other cultures, however, women who are flambouyant and confident and outspoken may be more likely to get the attention. 

Is it any accident artists tend to have artistic children? What then of engineers? That is whole different type of commitment - yet there are women doctors and I don't know anyone who reacts negatively to that. 

I'm saying that stereotypes are no accident - and that "social" does not simply mean "psychological" but real, physical differences. Anomalies do exist (and yes, I do consider myself one of those anomalies) but their existence does not disprove the basic accuracy of an archetype. 

Having said that, where do we go to start a "poofs of ubuntu" discussion area? All they're talking about in the "otaku" discussion is robots and mechas and stuff...

----------


## senorcheaposgato

I won't dispute the importance of biology.  Genetics, hormones, etc. do play a part in the way we are.  I'm not arguing that point.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology.  It has it's points, it makes sense in a lot of ways.  However, I think it completely overlooks a lot of things.  Yes, humans evolve just like everything else.  But (here it comes...) they don't evolve alone.  No man is an island.  The mating behaviors that have determined the direction of evolution across the globe occurred in group situations.  To the best of my knowledge, the only impact solo mating behaviors have had on evolution is to "weed it out."  You can't breed alone.

Yes, I am different than men.  I am also different than women, although this difference is (biologically) less significant.  Biologically, hormonally, emotionally, psychologically....I'm not what you are.  

I'm not saying that stereotypes are all lies.  Yes, they do exist for a reason.  However, stereotypes are a lot like statistics:  over an entire population, they may hold true.  On an individual level, don't trust them.  If 3 out of 7 people do [behavior X] then it's tempting to say "Hey, out of the 7 people I ate dinner with last night, 3 of them engage in [behavior X]!"  Statistically speaking, you should be right.  Are you?  quite possibly not.  It may be that [behavior X] is more prevalent in men from Maine, and you ate dinner with 7 women from Nevada.  

Biology plays a role, undoubtedly.  I agree that stereotypes are based in some truth, but only apply at the population level.  There are differences that cannot be explained by nurture; there are also differences that cannot be explained by nature.

It's more complicated than that.

----------


## poptones

> Personally, I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology. It has it's points, it makes sense in a lot of ways. However, I think it completely overlooks a lot of things. Yes, humans evolve just like everything else. But (here it comes...) they don't evolve alone. No man is an island. The mating behaviors that have determined the direction of evolution across the globe occurred in group situations. To the best of my knowledge, the only impact solo mating behaviors have had on evolution is to "weed it out." You can't breed alone.


I miss something here, because every point you make seems directed toward proving the validity of the thing you claim to not be "a fan of."

Of course you're not what I am. So? I'm not what most men are, either. we're all different but as different as we are we're still similar in many ways and, within that, many of us are similar in more ways still. But one doesn't diminish the importance of the other.

----------


## newbie2

Neither of them responded, she said.
"Diliwal did admit, however, that the data might exist."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/09/ms_loses_women/

----------


## krusbjorn

> Really? In what ways? I live in the deep south. All I see from "positive discrimination" is how it breeds even deeper resentment in the segment that feels threatened. You cannot outlaw bigotry any more than you can outlaw love.


Well, I can only speak for Sweden, but it has done a lot of good here.

If there are second to none women in a certain profession there are also second to none women getting experience in that profession. If you need a new employee and get to choose from one with experience and one who has the education needed but dont have any experience working, you choose the one with experience. Of course, no one can blame you for that.

When the public sector (or any other institution or company) use positive discrimination, the men, of course, feel that they are treated unfarily. And perhaps they are. If you are more skilled than your competitors for the job, and they dont choose you, of course it's unfair. That's the bad side of it.

The pro, however, is that if more women get employed, more women will have experience. And after a while, there will be a lot of more women in the profession, which will motivate even more women to educate themselves in the subject. When you have used positive discimination for a while, you won't need it anymore, since there will be a "better" balance between men and women in the profession.

There are always good and bad sides. I believe that if you use positive discrimination (for women, immigrants or whatever), and use it with _care_ , it can actually have tremendous effects over time. It simply gets things rolling, and once rolling, it will keep doing that by itself.

Thats how it have worked here. Of course, I have no idea whatsoever of how it has worked in the States or other countries.

Cheers.

----------


## endy

Mod parent +5 Insightful...

Oh wait, wrong site  :Very Happy:

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## manicka

> There are always good and bad sides. I believe that if you use positive discrimination (for women, immigrants or whatever), and use it with _care_ , it can actually have tremendous effects over time. It simply gets things rolling, and once rolling, it will keep doing that by itself.


bravo, well said  :Smile:

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## manicka

> I shouldn't even get involved in this, given my opinion that -- man or woman -- you do not deserve anything in life unless you can earn it on your own merits. If you're not good enough, then that's nobody's fault but your own.


 ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe this to be our reality.

----------


## Stormy Eyes

> ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.


I should know better than to suggest on an international forum that government solutions only breed more problems. Oh well.

----------


## bam

> ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe this to be our reality.



opportunities are what we make them, you may see it as an obstacle, I see it as an opportunity. Just a matter of viewpoint, not society.

[quote=A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother,]
this is an autonomic response, doesnt have to be taught, its instinct.


as for the subject, who care where thwe knowledge came from man woman child monkey dog its all the same as long as something was gained. Right?

----------


## programgeek

I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders.  Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women?  What makes you so special?  Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?

----------


## aysiu

Women traditionally have felt alienated in the world of computing. If you look at any polls in Linux forums of gender, women are usually well under the 10% mark. I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice. What would really be unnecessary is a Ubuntu Men because the Ubuntu forums are already overrun with men as it is--why make a separate forum for what already exists?

I'd highly recommend you read _Unlocking the Clubhouse_. I checked it out of my library--very informative.

I realize your intentions are good, but I don't see that a debate like this will turn out productive. When it comes to things like this, there are basically two major schools of thought:

1. Nothing should ever be explicitly separate. To institute such a separation is tantamount to discrimination.

2. Discrimination has already happened. We're trying to single things out and correct the wrongs.

Obviously, you subscribe to #1. I subscribe to #2. If my right arm is atrophying, I'm going to exercise my right arm a bit more than my left. I don't consider that discrimination--it's the rectification of a problem. Likewise, if I see very few women using Linux, I'm going to try to encourage them as much as possible.

----------


## kelsey23

> I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..
> 
> Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?
> 
> Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders.  Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.
> 
> Why women?  What makes you so special?  Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?


Ubuntu Women is actually a pretty sexist idea. Who cares if I am a woman or if I am a man? I am a Linux user. I understand the idea is too make women feel more comfortable, but this forum is like saying "ohhhhhhh I see your a woman come here and post now!" Now that makes me uncomfortable. By your logic, we should have a "Ubuntu Gays" too, and I can bet you that a person who said they are gay or something would face a lot more harrsment than a person saying they are a woman.

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## aysiu

Clearly, you subscribe to ideology #1. I subscribe to #2. Nice to meet you.

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## 2notch

Come on guys. Tell the truth. You and I both know that to find out that there were women out there that know how to compile a kernel, write a locked down PHP script, or even install Ubuntu on their mom's computer, is the object here. And you know why. 

There's no discrimination here and you know it. It's the same in every other Linux forum. 

For you Linux women that don't get it yet, the ultimate Linux geek bliss is to find a woman that thinks like they do. Talks on their level. One that eats, breathes and sh*ts Linux. It doesn't matter if you are Black, White, Asian, Indian or whatever. It's your *mind* that matters. Therefore, "Ubuntu Women".

Suck it up guys, admit it. I do.

*** I'll probably get some heat on this...bring it on.***

-- vv

----------


## Lord Illidan

> Come on guys. Tell the truth. You and I both know that to find out that there were women out there that know how to compile a kernel, write a locked down PHP script, or even install Ubuntu on their mom's computer, is the object here. And you know why. 
> 
> There's no discrimination here and you know it. It's the same in every other Linux forum. 
> 
> For you Linux women that don't get it yet, the ultimate Linux geek bliss is to find a woman that thinks like they do. Talks on their level. One that eats, breathes and sh*ts Linux. It doesn't matter if you are Black, White, Asian, Indian or whatever. It's your *mind* that matters. Therefore, "Ubuntu Women".
> 
> -- vv


Ah, well... we Maltese men can wait.. and hope...
I haven't yet met a single girl in my school who can use Linux...so I am hoping in vain.

----------


## az

> Clearly, you subscribe to ideology #1. I subscribe to #2. Nice to meet you.


That's cool.


Here is my two cents:

So long as there are people who begin their posts with:
"Hello gentlemen" or "I need a wise man to help"
there will be a need to take action.

Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school.   I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field.  The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.

No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.

----------


## 2notch

> Ah, well... we Maltese men can wait.. and hope...
> I haven't yet met a single girl in my school who can use Linux...so I am hoping in vain.


They are so rare and therefore so highly sought after. Have faith my friend, it's the one you least suspect.

----------


## Lord Illidan

> They are so rare and therefore so highly sought after. Have faith my friend, it's the one you least suspect.


Gosh, does that mean that the Linux geekess at my school is that airhead blonde??

Lol...couldn't resist!!

----------


## 2notch

> Gosh, does that mean that the Linux geekess at my school is that airhead blonde??
> 
> Lol...couldn't resist!!


Could be! That Mexican party girl of mine runs her own linux boxen now. Who would have known!

----------


## az

....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

----------


## Lord Illidan

> ....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.
> 
> Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)


I dunno about the other, but I am certainly not ugly, and the last time I picked my nose was...the day before tomorrow...lol
Can't we have a joke here?

----------


## 2notch

> That's cool.
> 
> 
> Here is my two cents:
> 
> So long as there are people who begin their posts with:
> "Hello gentlemen" or "I need a wise man to help"
> there will be a need to take action.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.

----------


## az

> I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.


The thread lost credibility before that.  That is the point.

----------


## 2notch

nuff said...gone to pick nose and seek out blonde, nose-picking Linux geekess.

----------


## Leif

great. if I were a woman, what I'd take from this thread is that if I posted here, a bunch of horny geeks would know I'm a woman, and start chasing me.

----------


## geekchic9

Exactly, Leif.

Viewing female Linux users as only something to chase after in order which to mate is a form of sexism. Why? Because they are being treated differently in a negative way than any other Ubuntu user.

I looked up sexism in my dictionary and it said that sexism is "discrimination against people on the basis of sex, specifically discrimination against, and prejudicial stereotyping of, women." 

How is Ubuntu Women discriminating against women? The creators of this forum were not discriminating against women. They were advocating the use of Ubuntu for women.

Advocacy: "To speak or write in support of a cause." 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most Linux users are men. Why aren't more women Linux users? Although no factor alone can specifically determine why, I'm betting a large part of it comes from the sexism of male Linux users in the Linux community. Are you confused? Just look at this thread and Leif's disgusted reaction to it. It's a perfect reason why women are typically scared off from the Linux community.

This is why Ubuntu women have so much work to do. And why I ask supporters of Ubuntu women to make a stand and volunteer to help. It won't take much time or effort, if that's what you're worried about. Write a post supporting women Linux users. Go to #ubuntu-women on freenode.net. Encourage female friends who are sick of Windows to try Ubuntu. Any of these things would help out the cause, which is to encourage more women to try Linux.

Thanks for reading,
Morgan (geekchic9)

----------


## Teroedni

Totally agree with you geekchic9 :Smile: 
I think the UbuntuWomen is a good idea

----------


## flibble

Great thread and a great idea for a Ubuntu Women forum.
I think you guys are probably totally decent people, but those comments you made are examples of how the society we live in effects all of us.
When you equate Ubuntu women with dumb blondes and mexican party girls, that has a negative impact on the women reading this forum. They're derogatory images. They paint a single picture that the value of women is their attractiveness (to men).
When you dismiss this impact by claiming you were 'only joking', that has an impact on the women reading this forum too.
I don't believe you guys intended to talk down to women, not for a second, but you did. Our society is steeped in this and it effects all of us and it happens all the time despite our best intentions. I'm certainly subject to it; I do it too. That's why we need to take action to address it by creating spaces where women are encouraged to speak.
It's us redressing a problem that we share, and doing so helps all of us.
Groovy :f

----------


## Leif

I'm all for ubuntu-women. If it serves to make women new to ubuntu feel more welcome, it's well worth it. And to respond to the original poster, why yes, if black people feel they are being discriminated against in the linux community, or gay people(yes, I have seen homophobic comments on these forums), or any other community for that matter, and feel that they would like to do something about it, I think they should be given the platform. 

Just because I belong to the majority white-straight-male-techie demographic here, doesn't mean I should feel threatened by any development that aims to help someone other than me. What benefits any of us benefits all of us, as a community.

----------


## aysiu

A lot of the issues we're discussing now are addressed in an article entitled How To Encourage Women in Linux, including not making sexist jokes.

----------


## spooky-mac

> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most Linux users are men. Why aren't more women Linux users?


Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?

BTW: I dislike the idea of a women forum, because it involuntarily leads to treating women as something "different". The ideals behind it might be some good ones, the result is not really fascinating.

Just my personal opinion.  :Wink:

----------


## Leif

> Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?


and why do you think this is ? because of innate differences ? because God made us this way ? or do you think there's a slight possibility some of it may have something to do with women having been considered intellectually inferior for centuries and not allowed to take part in the technical professions ?  you think society could have some part here ?

the point of this forum isn't to fascinate you. the point here is that women are already being treated as "different", whether you know it or not. this is an attempt to make up for that. 

anyway, I'm getting tired of a bunch of guys sitting around discussing whether it's ok for the "womenfolk" to do something or not. perhaps it might be worthwhile to have a sticky about elementary affirmative action and feminism for this forum so these discussions can be put to rest.

----------


## aysiu

> BTW: I dislike the idea of a women forum, because it involuntarily leads to treating women as something "different". The ideals behind it might be some good ones, the result is not really fascinating.


 I think you'll find that men in Linux tend to treat women as something "different" regardless of whether you have a forum dedicated to women or not. Again, see link above.

And, honestly, sometimes it's okay to be seen as different. I hate it, for example, when white people say, "You know, I don't really see you as Asian." Well, what do you see me as then? What are you--blind? I'm copying Margaret Cho's comedy routine, but I've often felt the same way. The question is really does that "difference" make you mistreat the person (say as a sexual object) or encourage you to realize how underrepresented certain populations are in the Linux community.

Unfortunately, debates like these are usually counterproductive and put activists in a catch-22. If we say there's a problem, we're accused of whining or having a victim mentality. If we don't say there's a problem, the problem doesn't get fixed. As I said before (which people seem to have conveniently ignored), if one of my arms has its muscles atrophying, I may, in fact, treat it as "different" from other body parts until it's exercised enough to be balanced out with the rest of my body. You don't give medicine to everyone, just the sick ones. 

There's no point to having a men's forum, because we already have an almost-all-men's forum. There is a point to addressing the underrepresentation of women. If you don't want to address it, go live your life, but don't stop others from trying to help out.

----------


## Lord Illidan

Ok, I take back my deragatory comments...
About Ubuntu Women forum, why not let the women decide?

----------


## kvidell

> Ok, I take back my deragatory comments...
> About Ubuntu Women forum, why not let the women decide?


Have you actually read the forum?
This is in no way shape or form the only topic about this...
 :Razz: 

And where's my LBGT forum? (j/k  :Razz: )
- Kev

----------


## towsonu2003

> Have you actually read the forum?
> This is in no way shape or form the only topic about this...
> 
> 
> And where's my LBGT forum? (j/k )
> - Kev


Hey, that's a good idea too! (not joking) Why not? 

It would be soo cool! Is there demand (now there is)? 

As for the original question: 
Sexism and devotion to patriarchy (being too political? let me know) is too common among men (geek or not), so a Ubuntu Women to "let" (sic) women be comfortable (and raise their voice when necessary as a sub-community) seems to be an excellent idea.

----------


## poptones

This is going to sound like a troll, but I use the example only to _make an example_...

Where is the intergenerational forum? And the beastiality forum? Some of us just can't play your games, man... 

But seriously... don't you think the question of "why aren't there more women linux users" really just comes down to the notion of people _identifying themselves by products?_ Car companies play this up - for example, the Ford Escort and the newer Cougar were designed specifically to make them more appealing to women - but how many women define themselves by the car they drive? How many women define _other women_ by the car they drive? Women even accept the notion of men being defined by the type of car they drive when they don't allow it of themselves - ie "he drives a benz" means something differen to a women than "she drives a benz" (if she even notices that "she drives a benz").

I know women who use linux because they are social conservatives who use linux because it fits with their political beliefs. But that still doesn't mesh with model of the men (like myself) who use it for the very same reason - because women tend to define themselves more by the epehemeralities of "politics" and "beliefs" first and the "products" just naturally follow - but men tend to focus first on the _symbols_ of their beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves.

----------


## Leif

> This is going to sound like a troll, but I use the example only to _make an example_...
> 
> Where is the intergenerational forum? And the beastiality forum? Some of us just can't play your games, man... 
> 
> But seriously... don't you think the question of "why aren't there more women linux users" really just comes down to the notion of people _identifying themselves by products?_ Car companies play this up - for example, the Ford Escort and the newer Cougar were designed specifically to make them more appealing to women - but how many women define themselves by the car they drive? How many women define _other women_ by the car they drive? Women even accept the notion of men being defined by the type of car they drive when they don't allow it of themselves - ie "he drives a benz" means something differen to a women than "she drives a benz" (if she even notices that "she drives a benz").
> 
> I know women who use linux because they are social conservatives who use linux because it fits with their political beliefs. But that still doesn't mesh with model of the men (like myself) who use it for the very same reason - because women tend to define themselves more by the epehemeralities of "politics" and "beliefs" first and the "products" just naturally follow - but men tend to focus first on the _symbols_ of their beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves.


I don't even understand what the point of that post was, but I'll bite.

yes, because a forum for women or lbgt is _exactly the same thing_ as bestiality. it's always the same argument, as if there's some kind of slippery slope from good old traditional values. "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria."

as for the car thing, you're generalising from a single, traditionally male example (the bigger the car...). So you do not know a single woman who wants a Chanel dress ? A Gucci bag ? Jimmy Choo/Manolo Blahnik shoes ? Tiffany diamonds ? No ? Maybe it's just my circle of friends then.

----------


## matthew

I think the whole point of having a separate forum for women is simple. We want to make sure that women, who are grossly under-represented in the Linux community, know that they are welcome. I don't mean welcome in the passive, "I've never done anything to discourage their being a part" sense. 

We want to welcome women in a more proactive way that says, "We know that sometimes in the Linux community you have been mistreated and we specifically want to communicate that we plan/intend/are working to make these forums a safe and welcoming place for you."

I realize that perhaps <pick your favorite minority> might also be under-represented. I also know that no group has found it as difficult as women have at times to break in to the men's club feeling that often dominates the Linux world. If you go to a linux users group meeting you will almost always find it full of males with few to no females present. You will likely hear sexist remarks and probably watch the room fall lustfully silent if/when a lady enters. Hmm...why wouldn't she feel comfortable?

So, I don't see a need to start a "blond/brunette/redhead" series of forums. Nor do I see a need to start one based on skin tone or nation of origin. I do see a real need to work in two directions so that 51% of the world's population feels welcome here. 

First, we need to police ourselves and this forum for sexist attitudes and comments. The moderators are doing a GREAT job with that. 

Second, we need to actively say, "Hey, ladies! We want you to come and be a part. We want your knowledge and insights as intelligent, capable computer users (or just plain people for newbies)." This separate forum was designed to say that in as loud and obvious a way possible.

----------


## poptones

_So you do not know a single woman who wants a Chanel dress ? A Gucci bag ? Jimmy Choo/Manolo Blahnik shoes ? Tiffany diamonds ? No ? Maybe it's just my circle of friends then._

Must be. 

Honestly, I don't know any women like that. I may know _of_ some women like that... but I don't know them personally, nor do I think I would have any more in common with them than with the men in my extended family who gather around the television for sports broadcasts.

_yes, because a forum for women or lbgt is exactly the same thing as bestiality._

Fine. Leave out the beasiality (of which I was joking) but, since you address it, let's leave in the intergenerational part. Because there are grandparents out there and other older folks who we are not directly addessing and who could be. and what about the children? Where is the children's forum? are they to be relegated to the kubuntu project alone?

having an lgbt forum would make this about _sexuality_ and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry. 

_First, we need to police ourselves and this forum for sexist attitudes and comments._

Some people *are* sexist. Some people *are* racist. "Policing" them into silence also silences any opportunity to share and to learn, and propogates a lie.

_If you go to a linux users group meeting you will almost always find it full of males with few to no females present._

That's just because so many of them are still in the nervertouchedaboobie club...

_...watch the room fall lustfully silent if/when a lady enters._

Especially if she looks like Marta Kristin or Katherine Schell.

Personally, I'm still saving myself for Angela Cartwright...

----------


## matthew

> How many computer-girls looks good?   1 out of 10?


 This is an example of the attitude I was discussing. Thank you for providing an example of why women often feel devalued in the computer world. 

In the interest of balance, fairness and humor I offer the following:
How many male computer-geeks look good?   1 out of 10?

Who cares? That's not what the community is about.

----------


## reub2000

This seems to be linux evangelism masquerading under feminism.

----------


## xingmu

In reponse to Lief's comment that "maybe we should make a sticky..." I have drawn up a summary of the arguments and counter-arguments made about Ubuntu Women recently.  I'll post here first, so that people can review it and add as they like.  Then if we have consensus, perhaps we can make it a sticky and save ourselves from threads like this in the future.

*Why do women need their own space on Ubuntu Forums?*

*aysiu:* Women traditionally have felt alienated in the world of computing. If you look at any polls in Linux forums of gender, women are usually well under the 10% mark. I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice.

*Mattew:* I think the whole point of having a separate forum for women is simple. We want to make sure that women, who are grossly under-represented in the Linux community, know that they are welcome. I don't mean welcome in the passive, "I've never done anything to discourage their being a part" sense. We want to welcome women in a more proactive way that says, "We know that sometimes in the Linux community you have been mistreated and we specifically want to communicate that we plan/intend/are working to make these forums a safe and welcoming place for you."

*Creating a separate forum for women is discrimination.*

*xingmu:* Although the word discriminate has the meaning "to set something apart from another," this does not necessarily entail unequal treatment.  And before you begin to bring up the historical fallacy of "separate but equal," remember that neither women or men are not prohibited from participating in any Ubuntu forum they choose. Separate forums does not have anything to do with forced segregation, it's simply giving dedicated space to a topic in-demand.

*aysiu:* When it comes to things like this, there are basically two major schools of thought: (1) Nothing should ever be explicitly separate. To institute such a separation is tantamount to discrimination; (2) Discrimination has already happened. We're trying to single things out and correct the wrongs. Obviously, you subscribe to #1. I subscribe to #2. If my right arm is atrophying, I'm going to exercise my right arm a bit more than my left. I don't consider that discrimination--it's the rectification of a problem. Likewise, if I see very few women using Linux, I'm going to try to encourage them as much as possible.

*Cool, now Ubuntu Forums has a place to pick up chicks.*

*xingmu:*  The purpose of Ubuntu Women is to welcome women in the Ubuntu community as a person (who has a mind and feelings), not as a sex toy.  This type of unwanted sexual attention is exactly what has put some women off from computing.  This forum is trying to provide a place where women will have some reassurance this type of sexism won't be tolerated.

*Face it, women just aren't interested in computers.  This forum is a waste of time.*

*Leif:* and why do you think this is ? because of innate differences ? because God made us this way ? or do you think there's a slight possibility some of it may have something to do with women having been considered intellectually inferior for centuries and not allowed to take part in the technical professions ? you think society could have some part here ?

*I don't think that women should have their own forum, it's not fair.*

*Leif:* Just because I belong to the majority white-straight-male-techie demographic here, doesn't mean I should feel threatened by any development that aims to help someone other than me. What benefits any of us benefits all of us, as a community.

*xingmu:* If there are people who want this forum and use it, who are you to say whether they are entitled to it or not?  There are no restrictions, that I have heard of, to prevent someone for making a case to create another special interest forum on Ubuntu Forums.

*What does gender have to do with Ubuntu?  OS's don't care what sex you are.*

*xingmu:* An OS is made by people for people.  It's not a living entity on it's own.  So it's not that hard to see how gender and OS's can be related.  For instance: How do we get more women involved in Ubuntu development?  How do we encourage more women to use Ubuntu?  How can we show new female users that the Linux community is not just for white male geeks?  And there are lots more issues that can relate to both Ubuntu and women.  Hopefully we can address them here.

----------


## BLTicklemonster

> I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..
> 
> Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?
> 
> Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders.  Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.
> 
> Why women?  What makes you so special?  Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?


It's only sexist or racist if it's meant to be. Otherwise, you don't get it and should sit down and let people work things out themselves. Do you realize how much DOESN'T get done due to people outside looking in trying to be sidewalk referees constantly yelling sexism and racism and all other isms when in all reality it's nothing at all.

----------


## BLTicklemonster

> I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.


I agree, that post really boogered it all up. Who knows where it would have gone otherwise? Yeah, I know, it's not funny.

----------


## Leif

> Honestly, I don't know any women like that. I may know _of_ some women like that... but I don't know them personally, nor do I think I would have any more in common with them than with the men in my extended family who gather around the television for sports broadcasts..


look, this is a sidetrack, and I'm afraid the point of it still "escapes me", as you so nicely put it. you made a generalization, I suggested this may be incorrect because I know people who don't fit it, now you're saying since you don't relate to these people, my point is invalid. fine.




> having an lgbt forum would make this about _sexuality_ and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.


this is not about sexuality. I'm not in favour of the women's forum because they are women, but because I'm in favour of helping out those who may be facing an inordinate amount of hostility. when the dentists in this forum make it heard that they're being discriminated against, we'll discuss it. as for the grandparents and children, despite you thinking this is hilarious, I think the idea has merit. I'm not sure how many children use ubuntu, and whether old people are discriminated against, but surely we could also make them feel welcome, if that's what they want. if someone can create a tutorial that explains to my mother what the concept of a program, or window is, I will be eternally grateful.

there is an ongoing discussion whether anything not purely technical should be allowed on these boards. one point of view is that encouraging non-technical issues will create a community, instead of a helpdesk. I'm not sure about all implications of this, but I completely fail to see what harm the women's forum could do. then again, I guess that's because I do not see it as sexist.

----------


## BLTicklemonster

You try to be nice, and this is what you get.

----------


## fluffy

so that women dont have to put up with this kind of nonsense from people like u ... and so they can get on and help each other and let other women see that women use linux too

is that something that so threatens u that u have to post in opposition to it?

----------


## rjwood

> ....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.
> 
> Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)


OH-AZZ your showing your age..isn't that what it is ---age. freud said everything leads to sex (or sexuality I guess)

----------


## BLTicklemonster

> OH-AZZ your showing your age..isn't that what it is ---age. freud said everything leads to sex (or sexuality I guess)


Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him)

----------


## rjwood

I'm all for it ladies. It is a shame that from my point of view being an american guy and having 4sisters along with 2 much older brothers and 4 daughters and one son(middle child) (quite handsom too ladies), girls spend alot of time attacking one-another ( quite viciously i might add) during their school years while guy's are learning to bond using sports and the like. I have never really liked the idea of teaching girls to be much like guy's through sports and compitition,But maybe it's a good idea. I don't know. I do know that girls seem to feel very alone. Too bad. I watch my daughters suffer thru these things and am amazed at their strength. Keep it up ladies and I applaud you for caring for your gender. Unfortunatly most of us guy's don't get it early enough..

----------


## rjwood

> Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him)


  I agree mostly but he was the father of phychology and he was useful.

But I think he was more a victum of his time too as we all are.

----------


## poptones

_...as for the grandparents and children, despite you thinking this is hilarious, I think the idea has merit_

Where did you get the idea I thought that was hilarious? I explicitly said "seriously" before making that point. I'm totally serious about that - there are more old people than there are women and every last one of us will, if we are lucky, grow old ourselves. Having a forum for older users and for children might well drive the creation of more and better software. 

Simple example: you still cannot change the colors of links in either thunderbird or evolution. Unvisited links are this hideously garish blue that is almost unreadable with any color theme that does not put the blue on top of a light grey or green. With dark themes links are pretty much illegible unless you have perfect vision, and that ain't something most folks over 40 have - whether they be male or female. In fact this is probably LESS of a problem for men since some men can be colorblind (and thus see the blue as a lighter shade of grey) but colorblindness is not something at all common to women. This has been a "known bug" in evolution for YEARS (I actually found a discussion of this in an email thread from 2002 and the main developer then said he knew about it and had no time to devote to it) - years later, and still no one does anything about it. How about ubuntu putting a bounty on this?

----------


## eonish

> There's no point to having a men's forum, because we already have an almost-all-men's forum. There is a point to addressing the underrepresentation of women. If you don't want to address it, go live your life, but don't stop others from trying to help out.


I dont think we have any 'all-men's' forum at all. I dont see anything manly about threads like "OpenOffice 2 final released" or "HowTo: Install and Use Beagle Easily". We probably would have an almost-all-men's forum if there were threads such as "Top 50 women" or such. But I never saw that. So I would rate this community, safe-for-all (as long as you are interested in linux.. lol)




> I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice.


There are forums and communities representing almost every topic that is (or is not) worth discussing about. There are forums dedicated to discussing about movies, specific movies, men, men who smokes, women who smokes, smoking... everything!
This forum, I believe, is about Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings. It is neither supposed to represent nor underrepresent men or women. Just a bunch of people discussing about ubuntu.

Now I understand what you are saying and I agree that there are too few women using linux. Ubuntu for women is an interesting idea. The IRC channel sounds like a great beginning for the cause.




> How can we show new female users that the Linux community is not just for white male geeks?


Being a brown male geek... The idea that linux community seems to be for white male geeks _never_ crossed my mind once. My brown female non-geeky sister (who uses ubuntu 100% on her system, btw) never seemed to think so either... but I'll get her input later.

----------


## Mrtn

Having a seperate forum for Women is sexist. Its like saying, thats where you belong away from us superior and more intelligent men.

Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise. In fact, I think males would be glad for more females messing around with Linux.

Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. I would never ever check this forum as man, because it is made for women.

I don't care who posts in what forum, but I refuse to post in a ubuntu women forum for any other reason than to say that it is crap. We love you to post in 'our' forums, because they aren't our forums. They are for ANYBODY with the same topic of interest. This forum is focused on women, hence it will not grab my attention.

If this forum is not focused on women, then there is no use for it. What you basically are saying with this forum is that:

1. The main forum is focused on men, which may or may be not true but now it is stated as that it is true. This will make any future integration much more difficult because males will think: We had our own forum **** off and the females will think the same.

2. Females should stick with this forum and stay away from the males.

I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong. I just feel that putting attention on women because they are women and they are a minority is bad. Women should get attention because they do something exceptional or something good for the community which would earn them respect in the community in the same way males earn it.

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## kanem

> Having a seperate forum for Women is sexist....


It's not up to the oppressive sex to determine what is and is not sexist against women. If women decided there was a need for a women's forum here then that's their perogative and you don't have the right to question it. 

Now whether or not a women's section belongs in a Linux distro's forum is another matter to debate. And you may have some good reasons for why it shouldn't be present. But unless you have had to deal with sexism all your life as women have you don't get to decide if it's sexist or not.

----------


## Leif

Martin, did you actually read this thread before posting, or did you just see the thread title and decide to post for the hell of it ? You say :




> Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise. In fact, I think males would be glad for more females messing around with Linux.


despite you (miraculously) not having seen any, there's plenty of discrimination against women going on in the IT world. 




> Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. I would never ever check this forum as man, because it is made for women.


yes, yes, let's all pretend there's no disparity here. 
you've completely misunderstood the point of this forum. it is not about segregating women, it's a place to discuss ideas on how to promote a better, more equal place for women in the ubuntu community. 




> I don't care who posts in what forum, but I refuse to post in a ubuntu women forum for any other reason than to say that it is crap. We love you to post in 'our' forums, because they aren't our forums. They are for ANYBODY with the same topic of interest. This forum is focused on women, hence it will not grab my attention.


why ? you say you'd like to have more women in linux. that's what this project is about. 





> 2. Females should stick with this forum and stay away from the males.
> 
> I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong. I just feel that putting attention on women because they are women and they are a minority is bad. Women should get attention because they do something exceptional or something good for the community which would earn them respect in the community in the same way males earn it.


I'm really sorry, but I cannot understand how you've come to these conclusions, despite all the posts trying to sum up what this forum is about.

this is not about segregation. this is not putting women at the back of the bus. this is not about having the womenfold have their playground. 

this is not a women-only forum. and this is definitely not where women are supposed to post about everything. technical things still go where they belong.

this is a forum about finding ways to level the playing field for women in linux, because they have to go through more hassle than you or I do. it's about discussing how to make a more inclusive community.

just because you don't know about the problems women may face, doesn't mean they don't exist. it may be that you even know some female linux geeks who get along just fine, and that's great, but I happen to have quite a few female friends in computer-related disciplines, and I know the crap they have to put up with sometimes. most men cannot even imagine these difficulties, because we never have to deal with them.

most importantly, this is a forum whose future the female users of ubuntu should get to decide upon, and so far, I have heard female voices in support of it, and the only voices opposing it are male. 

me, I'm posting here because I feel strongly about creating equal opportunities. I feel much good can come from admitting the problems and discussing solutions. you don't want to help out, that's fine too.

----------


## matthew

> I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong.


You _are_ wrong for all the reasons posted previously in this thread as well as recently by both kanem and Leif. 

Mrtn, your post shows a complete lack of understanding of the actual issues being discussed and I find it utterly senseless to try to persuade you further as it is obvious you could not have read all the previous posts in this thread prior to making your ridiculous post. I'm not against you having an opinion. I am against you posting such strong statements with what appears to be no real effort to actually comprehend the various viewpoints first. Ignorance is forgivable, intelligently stated and thought out disagreements are fruitful, posting rehashed arguments and poorly thought out statements ("Having a separate forum for women is sexist") is just sad.

----------


## fuscia

i demand a tranny forum.

----------


## towsonu2003

> Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him)


the simple reason we even can talk about sex itself is freud, so don't be _so_ harsh on him  :Smile: 

---------------------------------

also, I read so many posts saying that opening a women's forum is sexist. I'm simply amazed. people really need to read some stuff about feminism, especially radical feminism, in order to understand that a free (read: free from men) space for women is always useful _against_ sexism (and patriarchy, for that matter). 

The basic reading I can offer is "A Room of One's Own" by Virginia Woolf (should be available in your local library), a very well known book by an extremely well known feminist. In this book, she proposes (in _over_simplified terms) all women should get a "room" of their own to keep themselves away from the "boredom" (sic) caused by men's socio-economic demands and domination. 

I believe this forum will be very useful for both the women end-users of ubuntu and its women developers, once the forum is cleared from thread(/t)s like "what's the point", "change the name", and "can women post here for tech" (and that's my own post). I believe that these thread(t)s (and the ones that are sure to come) are the response of a patriarchal society's 'natural' reaction to a women-controlled community. 

------------------------------------

I also read about the posts (to this forum) that joked about opening separate forums for transsexuals, lesbians, and other oppressed identities. Although their authors were just joking (in order to downplay this particular community as well as all those identities), I believe their ideas were invaluable and must be considered seriously. 

Ubuntu can make its way into identity politics and sociology/women's studies classes as the only IT product that is open and welcome to all identities (in those identities' terms)... This is as radical as linux can get.

----------


## fuscia

> people really need to read some stuff about feminism, especially radical feminism, in order to understand that a free (read: free from men) space for women is always useful _against_ sexism (and patriarchy, for that matter).


as in 'free from beer'?




> I also read about the posts (to this forum) that joked about opening separate forums for transsexuals, lesbians, and other oppressed identities. Although their authors were just joking (in order to downplay this particular community as well as all those identities), I believe their ideas were invaluable and must be considered seriously.


oops! i thought you guys were joking too. my bad.

----------


## dbott67

Actually, everybody is WAAAAYYYY off base as to why this forum was created: 

It's the only place in the forums that that female Ubuntu users don't have to worry about someone leaving the toilet seat up.

Simple (that, and no pee on the seat, either).

-Dave

----------


## fuscia

> Actually, everybody is WAAAAYYYY off base as to why this forum was created: 
> 
> It's the only place in the forums that that female Ubuntu users don't have to worry about someone leaving the toilet seat up.


is it for women only? (serious question)

----------


## dbott67

As long as you put the seat down, I'm pretty sure you're welcome here.

(I mean, you're here... I'm here... azz is here... aysiu is here... we're all guys... I think)

Of course, now all the women are rolling their eyes and thinking, "Heck, we LET them have every other forum on these boards and all they want to do is hang out in here.. C'mon girls, let's go to the garage and fix the car."

----------


## fuscia

i don't need an electric fence to be kept out of women's bathrooms. i just need to know if it is open to everyone, or not. if it's a clubhouse for women - fine, i'm gone and 'sorry for the intrusion'. but, if it's for discussion of women and ubuntu, in which all are invited to participate, that would be quite different. either way is cool with me.

----------


## BinaryDigit

My understanding is that this forum was created to encourage more female linux users. It's not only exclusive to women, it's just mean to encourage *more* women to discuss issues, whether it be sex related, computer related, experiences we've gone through in life, etc.  Men and women can chime in just like any other forum on this site.

----------


## matthew

> It's not only exclusive to women, it's just mean to encourage *more* women to discuss issues


I'm pretty sure that was just typed quickly. 
I think you intended to write "It's not only *not* exclusive to women, it's just mean*t* to encourage..."
 :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## BLTicklemonster

How many Windows sites show enough interest in chicks to be nice enough to giv- whoa, I mean how many Windows sites show enough interest in females to give them a place to talk to one another? 

I think it showed class (unlike me just now, of course).

(I can't believe 1. that this post exists 2. that it's still going on.)

----------


## warpforge

> It's not up to the oppressive sex to determine what is and is not sexist against women. If women decided there was a need for a women's forum here then that's their perogative and you don't have the right to question it.


This is very poorly reasoned. It's even a logical fallacy. Someone's personal stake in a matter doesn't grant them any authority over a topic. A well-reasoned argument will always trump "but it affects ME!" I can only scoff at your notion that I have no right to question your ideology.

Your post is rife with loaded terms like "the oppressive sex," as if oppression is inherent in the male gender as much as you argue computer illiteracy is NOT inherent to the female gender. You can't have it both ways. Males can't have inherent evil characteristics while females enter the world _tabula rasa_.

This forum is a bad idea for several reasons, but the question that most concerns me is, "What is this forum FOR?" Can males post questions here? Are males allowed to post responses to inquiries for females? I assume the answer to the latter is "yes," but then how would that response differ from a response in the main forum? Do you intend responses to talk down to thread posters in this forum? I assume not. And do you really expect users to check this forum IN ADDITION TO other relevant forums for questions? Seems like a waste of time.

The only value I see to forums like these are to establish social groups, and perhaps that's best done more broadly than with Ubuntu.

----------


## geekchic9

Warpforge,

You post some good questions. We plan to discuss the first one more generally at #ubuntu-women this Saturday (Nov. 5) from 12 PM to 5 PM CST. Can anyone convert that to UTC? If you (any of you) can't make it, but want to answer the question "What is 'Ubuntu Women' FOR?", then send me an email at morganlandry (at) gmail (dot) com. I look forward to everyone's responses!

----------


## Ted_Smith

I'm new to Ubuntu and these forums. While browsing to see what's where, I noticed this forum and it caught my eye. Not because I thought 'Hey, they'll be load of chicks chatting there - I'll go and spy on them', but what I actually thought was 'How cool is that - a targetted Linux forum for women - I'll go and see what stuff they've suggested, contributed, created, etc'. Instead, the first thing I read is a forum titled 'What's the point?' and a load of 'political correctness' debates to follow. 

Come on...no one can ever do right these days. Why can't people accept things for what they are. There's hardly any women in computing generally, especially Linux. I work in the field of forensic computing - a very narrow, specialist and evolving field concisting of only a couple of thousand people. There's probably less than 50 women in that but those women contribute a lot of good stuff - no different to the men. But would they all want to meet up and have a party of their own without any of the guys? Probably. But if us men suggested it, would we be criticised for suggesting it and get called sexist pigs? Probably.  

I think it's great that someone has taken the initiative to encourage Linux women to get more involved with Linux with the supposed incentive that women chat with women. Shame it can't be taken the way it is intended. 

Ted

----------


## matthew

Ted: thank you!

----------


## BLTicklemonster

> I'm new to Ubuntu and these forums. While browsing to see what's where, I noticed this forum and it caught my eye. Not because I thought 'Hey, they'll be load of chicks chatting there - I'll go and spy on them', but what I actually thought was 'How cool is that - a targetted Linux forum for women - I'll go and see what stuff they've suggested, contributed, created, etc'. Instead, the first thing I read is a forum titled 'What's the point?' and a load of 'political correctness' debates to follow. 
> 
> Come on...no one can ever do right these days. Why can't people accept things for what they are. There's hardly any women in computing generally, especially Linux. I work in the field of forensic computing - a very narrow, specialist and evolving field concisting of only a couple of thousand people. There's probably less than 50 women in that but those women contribute a lot of good stuff - no different to the men. But would they all want to meet up and have a party of their own without any of the guys? Probably. But if us men suggested it, would we be criticised for suggesting it and get called sexist pigs? Probably.  
> 
> I think it's great that someone has taken the initiative to encourage Linux women to get more involved with Linux with the supposed incentive that women chat with women. Shame it can't be taken the way it is intended. 
> 
> Ted


lmao, we are supposed to have a free and open society, yet the minute you try to be inclusive, the vocal minority comes unhinged and starts criticizing everyone.

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## towsonu2003

/me is surprised that this thread is still alive... guys->nothing better to contribute?

PS. I know posting here to say that is paradoxical... I am...

----------


## psyguy92

Linux has nothing to do with gender.  From this starting point, a women's forum is silly.  That's my first reponse.

Before you flame me, here's my second response:
Ubuntu has made a sociopolitial statement with the variation of race and gender in its artwork and the general tones it sets.  It's an all-inclusive community.  To the extent that we are to be an inclusive community built around the commonality of interest in FOSS/computing,   we should support diversification of topics that bind us together as a community.  This entails fragmentation, because groups of people will be drawn together (and thus apart from the main group) based on interest/commonality.  If there is a strong enough pull to coalesce around an interest or identity, be it gender, race, sexual orientation, or an artistic flare, the creation of and participation in a subforum based on that interest or identity serves to nurture a cohesive framework of participation and sharing that underpins a community.

This seems positive to me.  If the women's group thrives, there is interest.  If it doesn't, it essentially does not exist.  If we want a gay group, a black group, a muslim group, a xyz group, we should say so.  If xyz thrives, there is interest.  If not, redirect to /dev/null.

cheers!

----------


## xelink

no offense, but who gives a damn? I couldn't care less how someone else was born, it's their choices and their lifestyle that I try to judge by.

Also, I don't care that ubuntu stands for class, racial, gender, [insert group here] equality or anything, I couldn't give a care if people are equal - simply because it is not the nature of the world. Clearly races, genders, groups, etc. are not equal, not in anyway. How is it fair that some are more vulnerable to one disease over another? How is it fair that one race is more apt for a certain task. It is not fair nor is it equal. I don't care about equality per se, I care about being fair and just. If someone, is moral hardworking, and an overall high acheiver, I am going to respect them no matter what. The idea of social-racial-economic-gender-etc. equality is based on an impossibility, something which would be novel, but just isn't the case. The best thing to do is just give everyone their just deserts and simply not care. Atleast that is how I see it. I am only 16 though, my views may change in time. One could say my definition of being humane fals somewhere along the lines above, being fair and just, helping a brother out, even if you aren't a brother.

What I do care about is that this is a good distro, with a good comunity, aimed towards ease of use, and functionability.

----------


## lotusleaf

> I don't want to sound like a troll


Yet you follow with the word:




> But


so too late.  :Smile: 




> Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?


What about debian women? Perhaps you should ask them if their site is sexist?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  




> Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?


Do you have issues with BET too?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ironwoodcarver

well hello to all see not gender specific I'm an older male and remeber the burning of the bra's in the 60s I will tell you that personnally I could care less of what other forums other users use as I see it we are supposed to be all inclusive but if someone is not comfortable in one environment they should be able to go to an environment thay are comfortable in I don't see the issue maybe I'm blind by the way I am a male.white and straight and like to tell sexist jokes to feminists but that does not mean I don't respect them.

What the feminist movement did was fight for their rights as the blacks did in the US all the more power to them I'm an artist and I will never say my art is better then a woman or gay person we all have our uniqueness and thats what should be appreciated to knock one group of people shows lack of understanding and I know this will make some people angry but so what it tells me they are lacking in education. If we discrimate agianst an other we had better educate ourselves about them before we judge them. :Confused:

----------


## ironwoodcarver

wow it appears I have had the last word on this topic I can't believe , well dreams do come through  :Smile:

----------


## Kelpie

i once was in a school with an exchange student from some other country who said windows was horrible and linux was better and she was a girl...

xD with that said, i'm a female too, i havent used linux yet but i think i will get the hang of it, once i get some things, but yeah im one of those rare geeky girls fascinated in geeks and computers xD and electronics period

i dont think its sexist, its just something to make females feel more comfortable about it, computers like everything else has been seem to be a 'guy' thing, but some of us girls dont care xD

----------


## BWF89

I don't see why we need a seperate forum for women.

Unless their name implies that their a girl (names with chick, girl, and women) whose going to know what they are anyway?

----------


## Leif

> I don't see why we need a seperate forum for women.
> 
> Unless their name implies that their a girl (names with chick, girl, and women) whose going to know what they are anyway?


so you're saying women should be ok as long as they don't use their own name (Jane, Mary etc. are not really unisex) or anything feminine sounding. 

women : welcome as long as you hide your gender !

----------


## aysiu

Isn't it true, too, that women who don't have a distinctly feminine-sounding username are also immune to sexist remarks and demeaning sexual comments about women?

----------


## Stormy Eyes

> Unless their name implies that their a girl (names with chick, girl, and women) whose going to know what they are anyway?


And who's going to care? Pardon my Arabic, but the possession of a **** and balls isn't going to make somebody more proficient with Linux.

----------


## Roobert

> so you're saying women should be ok as long as they don't use their own name (Jane, Mary etc. are not really unisex) or anything feminine sounding. 
> 
> women : welcome as long as you hide your gender !


I don't ever consider gender unless it's explicitly brought up in a post. Everyone is a tagline and a graphic, for god's sake. Even the ones with women's names could be guys trolling as women.  So I don't think about it or really care for that matter what gender you happen to be.

----------


## TeeAhr1

Sorry, latecomer to this thread (I just had the feeling that it was bound to get ugly and flame-y, and wanted no part of it - whether or not I was right, you may be the judge).  But I finally bit, and would like to add my perspective.  Sorry if this is long, but I've got eight pages of replys to consider here.

First off, I was unsure before, but having seen some of the reactions just on this thread, I totally agree with Asyiu, Leif, et. al.  Immaturity and willful ignorance such as have been demonstrated here are the reason a women's forum is important.  IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with that opinion is being immature or ignorant.  But a couple of people damn well have been, and I don't feel the need or the desire to name names; in your heart, you know who you are.  Hell, I'm a guy, and I don't want to listen to some of this crap either; can't imagine how I'd feel if I were a woman.

Okay, so there's my general thesis.  A few points were raised that I'd like to speak more specifically to:




> Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?


Okay, I don't know where you got that stat, but I'm willing to roll with it as a back-of-the-napkin number, until/unless someone shows me differently.  And it's a good point.  Here's another number for you to chew on.  According to the age and gender poll on this site (and yes, I know that a forum poll is inherently unscientific, but I don't have any more reliable numbers, if you do, post 'em), we are 96% male.  _Ninety-six._  Last I checked, 51% of the global population was female.  I'd say we have an issue here.



> Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise.


For the record, me either, until this thread (not you, Mrtn).



> Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. *snip*


I don't think that's the point of the women's forum at all.  I had actually never looked at it before, but just went over and kind of skimmed to get an idea of the conversations going on, and it seems to be mostly a general discussion forum, like this one, focusing more on issues of specific interest to women.  It is not a technical support forum.  If it was, I'd agree with you 100%.  I would ask the question, "why is it tucked away as a subcategory of '3rd Party Projects?'"  Women do post in the main technical forums, and have helped me with my dumbass newbie problems several times.



> Martin, did you actually read this thread before posting, or did you just see the thread title and decide to post for the hell of it? *snip*


Okay, you made some other totally vaild points in this post, but the tone was kind of mean.  I don't think Martin was trying to be confrontational here at all.



> no offense, but who gives a damn? *snip* What I do care about is that this is a good distro, with a good comunity, aimed towards ease of use, and functionability.


Well, I give a damn, for one.  But you are totally right in that you are under no obligation to, and that's fine, and I'm certainly not going to respect you one bit less for it.  It's a forum available for those who want to use it, and if you don't, then that's your perogative.  I personally think the the user support here is excellent, and there's a great community of people around it that make that possible.  If you're not interested in a particular topic of discussion on another part of the forum, fine.



> Pardon my Arabic, but the possession of a **** and balls isn't going to make somebody more proficient with Linux.


You're brilliant, thx!



> having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.


NOTE: I am deliberately not quoting or discussing your appallingly offensive bestiality comment, except to say that I am thoroughly disgusted at you.  Moving on to more discussion-worthy points.

_Disclosure:_ I'm gay.  Yeah, "eew," go ahead, get it out of your system.

I don't know about dentists, not being one.  I do know that one's sexuality is, if not quite, _almost_ as base a self-identifier as one's gender.  Would you say, for example, "I am a dentist man?"  I am a gay man.  Notice the order in which those words fell.  Using the same logic as earlier, you may or may not choose to believe that 10% of the population is queer.  Personally, I don't even know if I believe that, but it's a commonly used number, derived from Kinsey, IIRC.  Anyone here believe that 10% of the people who post in ubuntuforums are queer?  I don't.

I said earlier that I had never heard an explicity sexist comment in the technical forums.  A search for the word "gay" brings up 65 hits.  "Queer" gets 12, "***" 3, "******" 2, and 6 for "homo."  (Note: I did not actually read these threads, just searched for the word.   I'm sure that not all of those 65 for "gay" were homophobic.)  How many posts have been removed for homophobic comments I have no idea.

Which leads nicely into...



> If there is a strong enough pull to coalesce around an interest or identity, be it gender, race, sexual orientation, or an artistic flare, the creation of and participation in a subforum based on that interest or identity serves to nurture a cohesive framework of participation and sharing that underpins a community.
> 
> This seems positive to me. If the women's group thrives, there is interest. If it doesn't, it essentially does not exist. If we want a gay group, a black group, a muslim group, a xyz group, we should say so. If xyz thrives, there is interest. If not, redirect to /dev/null.





> I also read about the posts (to this forum) that joked about opening separate forums for transsexuals, lesbians, and other oppressed identities. Although their authors were just joking (in order to downplay this particular community as well as all those identities), I believe their ideas were invaluable and must be considered seriously.
> 
> Ubuntu can make its way into identity politics and sociology/women's studies classes as the only IT product that is open and welcome to all identities (in those identities' terms)... This is as radical as linux can get.


Absolutely, you both said it better than I could have.  Furthermore, I hereby formally move that an expirimental "Ubuntu GLBTQ" forum be considered.  As psyguy said, if there's no interest, then the hell with it.  If it takes off, I think it would be a fantastic thing for not only Ubuntu, but the Linux/open source community in general.  _Every single voice we add makes us stronger._  I mean, if that's not the point of open source, what is?

Okay, I've said my piece.  I told you it was going to be long.

----------


## Leif

> I don't ever consider gender unless it's explicitly brought up in a post. Everyone is a tagline and a graphic, for god's sake. Even the ones with women's names could be guys trolling as women.  So I don't think about it or really care for that matter what gender you happen to be.


great, and neither do I. unfortunately, not everyone feels this way.

----------


## poptones

_I don't know about dentists, not being one. I do know that one's sexuality is, if not quite, almost as base a self-identifier as one's gender._ 

Wrong. Completely. Utterly. Totally.

I don't know what's up your butt on this, but most of my friends *are* gay. A couple have also been transgendered... calling me a homophobe because I disagree with you says much more about you than about me.

If you are a man who expresses himself outwardly as a woman, that is an expression of gender - you *are*, for all practical purposes, a woman. It has nothing to do with what may or may not be dangling between your legs nor does it have a ****ing thing to do with your sexual orientation. I have a friend in Atlanta who got a sex change operation because *he* perceived himself to be a woman; now *she* has been living with *her girlfriend* about two years. 

That she is attracted to women or men is not something that can be discerned from her expression of *gender*. You would have no way of knowing her or my sexuality without *asking* and, unless that person _offers_ the information it is none of your business anyway.

Discrimination against people based on their beliefs is wrong - but as a breeder who has faced a lifetime of that very same discrimination simply because of my mannerisms and personal style I can still state this is not *at all* the equivalent of discrimination against people because of their skin color or their *gender*.

----------


## psyguy92

> Quoting TeeAhr1:_I don't know about dentists, not being one. I do know that one's sexuality is, if not quite, almost as base a self-identifier as one's gender._ 
> 
> Reply by poptones:
> Wrong. Completely. Utterly. Totally.
> -=snip=-
> 
> Discrimination against people based on their beliefs is wrong - but as a breeder who has faced a lifetime of that very same discrimination simply because of my mannerisms and personal style I can still state this is not *at all* the equivalent of discrimination against people because of their skin color or their *gender*.


Firstly, sexual orientation is not a belief.   It is an identity, as are female and male and white and black.  

I'm sorry to hear of your plight - having been assumed to be such an extreme pariah - being assumed to be gay...  *sigh*.  And no, lets not equate discrimination based on sexual orientation with discrimination based on gender.  Why not?

Women: paid less (assuming incompetence) and raped (assuming weakness and male entitlement).
Blacks: ever heard of the klan?
Gays: heard of Matthew Shepard?
Quoting Wikipedia:
_Shortly after midnight on October 7, 1998, 21-year-old Matthew Shepard met Aaron James McKinney and Russell Arthur Henderson in a bar. According to McKinney, Shepard asked them for a ride home. Subsequently, Shepard was robbed, severely beaten, tied to a fence and left to die. McKinney and Henderson also found out his address, intending to burgle his home. Shepard was discovered, by a bicyclist, 18 hours later, alive and unconscious.

Shepard suffered from a fracture from the back of his head to the front of his right ear. He also had severe brain stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heartbeat, body temperature, and other vital signs. There were also about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. He died at 12:53 a.m. on October 12 at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado.

Police arrested McKinney and Henderson shortly thereafter, finding the bloody gun as well as the victim's shoes and wallet in their truck. The two murderers had attempted to get their girlfriends to provide alibis._

Not stated in that quote was that the murderers pretended to be gay to lure Matthew, and that Matthew was targeted because of his sexual orientation.

In our enlightened day and age, gays are beaten bloody with the end of a pistol, tied to fences, and left for dead just for being gay.  Surely one can find no marginalization and drive to associate amongst one another based on this.  Doesn't it seem reasonable to downplay discrimination in this case?

Downplaying discrimination is a recipe for atrocity.  Please be careful.

----------


## poptones

_In our enlightened day and age, gays are beaten bloody with the end of a pistol, tied to fences, and left for dead just for being gay._

Blah blah blah... oh poor me...

It is not my responsibility or that of Ubuntu to atone for these idiocies. There is simply no way for anyone here to know whether you are gay or straight or black or white or green or male or female or anything else if you do not make it an issue yourself. 

The way you reacted to my comments about beastiality portray your hypocrisy in all their rainbow colored glory. I was not at all being sarcastic, beastiality is a sexual preference that involves no one but the partners - just as homosexuality. If you were really so all about "being inclusive" you would be able to look past any _offence_ you might have felt - after all this is *exactly* what you are demanding of others. Why not also set up a forum for multiple partner households and one for onanists and one for pedophiles... 

Your sexuality is your business, it has no place here.

----------


## aysiu

I don't think Ubuntu Women was started because women in general are oppressed in the world (you could make a good case that they are, but I think it's irrelevant).

The point is really that women are severely underrepresented in both the computing and Linux worlds, and that people who are interested in the Ubuntu Women project (whatever form that may take) want to rectify that underrepresentation.

Women in general: roughly 50% of the world's population
Women in Ubuntu: roughly 4 % of the population

Can anyone make the case that gays and lesbians are underrepresented in Linux or Ubuntu? If so, maybe that might be a legitimate project.

----------


## TeeAhr1

I am not debating this with you, poptones.  You should know that I've reported that last one as a bad post.



> THIS SECTION IS NOT MODERATED EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING SITUATIONS:
> ...2. Personal attacks towards individuals and groups.


To paraphrase your own post, your bigotry is your own business, but it is _not welcome_ here.

The rest of this thread has been really interesting stuff.  I think a couple of you are full of it, but I'm sure y'all might feel the same way about me (especially after my two-page post back there).  That's good; disagreement is good.

----------


## TeeAhr1

> Can anyone make the case that gays and lesbians are underrepresented in Linux or Ubuntu? If so, maybe that might be a legitimate project.


Good question, and I don't know.  I guess a "sexuality survey" in Community Chat might be a good place to start.  Unless someone's got a better (read: more reliably scientific) method in mind, I'd be glad to post it.

----------


## Stormy Eyes

> The point is really that women are severely underrepresented in both the computing and Linux worlds, and that people who are interested in the Ubuntu Women project (whatever form that may take) want to rectify that underrepresentation.


I have a little trouble with such statements as yours. Why not let individuals do as they will, without concern for whether or not they fill some arbitrary quota?

----------


## aysiu

> Good question, and I don't know.  I guess a "sexuality survey" in Community Chat might be a good place to start.  Unless someone's got a better (read: more reliably scientific) method in mind, I'd be glad to post it.


 I don't know how accurate that survey would be. While heterosexuals may gladly come forward and pronounce themselves het, gays may not (even behind a username) want to proclaim themselves gay in a survey.

I'm not saying anyone would lie, necessarily--they may just not bother answering the poll.

----------


## aysiu

> I have a little trouble with such statements as yours. Why not let individuals do as they will, without concern for whether or not they fill some arbitrary quota?


 I'm not trying to twist anyone's arm to join Linux to meet a quota. Usually when a demographic group is underrepresented, there are _reasons_ that group is underrepresented.

Think of it more as removing obstacles to Linux migration rather than forcing women into Linux.

If I feel a sharp pain in my arm but nowhere else in my body, I'm not going to treat my arm the same way I treat the rest of my body because clearly something (a disease or condition) is preventing my arm from acting normally. I'm going to pay special attention to getting rid of that disease or condition so that my arm can join the rest of my body as normally functioning.

There's something (or a bunch of things) impeding Linux adoption for women. Getting rid of those some things is the point of Ubuntu Women.

----------


## TeeAhr1

> I don't know how accurate that survey would be. While heterosexuals may gladly come forward and pronounce themselves het, gays may not (even behind a username) want to proclaim themselves gay in a survey.
> 
> I'm not saying anyone would lie, necessarily--they may just not bother answering the poll.


Yeah, I agree, as I tried to make clear with the _unless anyone's got a better idea_ part, I just don't know of any better way to do it.  I'm Googling in another tab right now trying to find some sort of comprehensive demographic survey of Linux users, so far to no avail.  I'll update if I come up with anything...

----------


## poofyhairguy

> There's something (or a bunch of things) impeding Linux adoption for women.


All the women in my life use a lot of Linux. My sister has a Linux cell phone, loves her TiVo that runs on Linux and needs her wireless router that uses Linux for her Powerbook.

Not to criticize.

----------


## Stormy Eyes

> There's something (or a bunch of things) impeding Linux adoption for women. Getting rid of those some things is the point of Ubuntu Women.


That "something" might be that they just can't be bothered. Lots of men can't be bothered to knit, yet nobody claims that men are underrepresented in the knitting community.

----------


## Leif

> That "something" might be that they just can't be bothered. Lots of men can't be bothered to knit, yet nobody claims that men are underrepresented in the knitting community.


men can't be "bothered" to knit in most instances because they would never try it since it's an "unmanly" thing to do (me, I find it relaxing). if women can't be "bothered" to at least try linux, it might have something to do with it being perceived as a "boy's toy". 

in my martial arts club (not "mine" of course, just a student), we've made a special effort to target women during our recruitment drives at events such as freshers fayre the last couple of years. this is because generally women tend to see martial arts as a guys' thing, but once we've explained that they don't need to be super-strong to do our style, and that there are other women doing it who enjoy it we get quite a few recruits. 

women success stories from our club are very enthusiastic to come and speak at such events to convince people that you don't become some kind of psychotic weirdo when you do martial arts, and that it's fun and a unisex thing to do. we approach more women than men, because men are more likely to approach us anyway. 

the result is that our club has moved from a 10:1 ratio to more of a 6:4. still work in progress, but it has done a lot of good already. my technique has improved from having a wider range of body types to train with, and off the mat, it's a more civil environment. 

anyway, sorry for the long post, but I'm a believer in positive reinforcement or whatever you want to call it, since I've seen it work, and since I also believe that having a more balanced community is a good thing that must be actively worked towards.

----------


## poptones

OK then.. what do we do as a community to get more men into knitting?

----------


## Teh Ethan

I understand the motivation for people to want this kind of an environment available to them, and usually, I'd encourage it.

But this isn't the kind of place where your sex doesn't have to matter. You can't see the people you're talking to. You don't know anything that they don't tell you.

Why should we have a special forum for women? Call me crazy, but "I'm a woman, so I'm scared to be a part of the Ubuntu community" - which may or may not be legitimate for some people - is pretty much invalidated in an anonymous situation like the Ubuntu forum.

I'm all for equality, and I don't judge based on anything but character. Being somewhat of a minority myself, I can see why that's so important. But when we're all anonymous, nobody can be prejudiced against you unless you tell them that you're a kind of person they don't like.

So doesn't a women's forum, by nature, have to be seperatist? Isn't that what we're trying to avoid here?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. These are just my opinions and they may be based on things that for some reason aren't entirely accurate.

Ethan

----------


## Leif

not to be short with you, but your points (and others) have been discussed at some length before :
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=74884

this thread needed to be moved to the backyard as it contained some unpleasantness, but also a lot of good discussion disappeared with it too.

----------


## joshuapurcell

I think it's a little funny that if Ubuntu (and Linux in general) is for all people we would still feel the need to separate the forums into places based on things such as gender or sex preference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having certain areas of the forums designated as a place where people of certain upbringing, background, nationality, gender, sexual preference, etc. can call their corner. But as soon as you open that door up you will will start getting a flood of equally valid requests to open up a new forum dedicated to someone else's religion, hobby, favorite color, caste system status, monetary worth, etc.

Go ahead and keep this forum open specifically for women, but I had better see a forum dedicated to gays and lesbians open up as well because there really is no difference as far as an operating system and forum goes, and this goes for any other request that comes up in this or other threads. I somehow think that a gay forum would never take off in this community though, and I'm not sure that it needs to any more than some other arbitrary label people like to wear.

How does hanging unneeded labels on people really help Ubuntu? How will it change a person's experience while using Ubuntu or being on this forum? I can't imagine that it would change it very much at all. One things for sure, it will cause a segregation of the community while drawing unneeded remarks from the more immature folks in the community.




> having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.


I have to say that having a gay forum would not be bringing sexuality into this forum any more than having a women's forum does for some people. At the same time, why even bring the gender label up by creating a forum for it if the topic for this and all other forums *"is supposed to be software and computers"*? How does gender help or hinder in that discusion? None at all I'm afraid, and neither would a forum for lesbian and gay people.

----------


## Leif

> But as soon as you open that door up you will will start getting a flood of equally valid requests to open up a new forum dedicated to someone else's religion, hobby, favorite color, caste system status, monetary worth, etc.


yes yes, let's just trivialize gender discrimination in techie communities by putting it on equal status as discrimination based on "hobby and favourite colour". as for the others (religion, caste status), if you belong to a religion or caste that you feel is discriminated against in the community, please, feel free to have your voice heard.




> Go ahead and keep this forum open specifically for women, but I had better see a forum dedicated to gays and lesbians open up as well because there really is no difference as far as an operating system and forum goes, and this goes for any other request that comes up in this or other threads. I somehow think that a gay forum would never take off in this community though, and I'm not sure that it needs to any more than some other arbitrary label people like to wear.


you had better see it ? then form it yourself. noone's stopping you. if enough people want it, it will happen, and in that case I'm sure it would be a valuable addition to the community




> How does hanging unneeded labels on people really help Ubuntu? How will it change a person's experience while using Ubuntu or being on this forum? I can't imagine that it would change it very much at all. One things for sure, it will cause a segregation of the community while drawing unneeded remarks from the more immature folks in the community.


what label ? what segregation ? this is not where women are supposed to be confined. it's a forum to promote wider participation of women in the community.

----------


## joshuapurcell

> yes yes, let's just trivialize gender discrimination in techie communities by putting it on equal status as discrimination based on "hobby and favourite colour". as for the others (religion, caste status), if you belong to a religion or caste that you feel is discriminated against in the community, please, feel free to have your voice heard.


Can I not have my voice heard without hanging labels on myself or others for once? Isn't that one of the good things about the Internet? Is it not better to be inclusive to everyone equally? Creating forums centered around various labels begins to make this equal inclusion much harder to do. 


> you had better see it ? then form it yourself. noone's stopping you. if enough people want it, it will happen, and in that case I'm sure it would be a valuable addition to the community


I was saying that I'm not for having separate forums for things such as this _unless_ there are separate forums for other labels as well. Because this could open up a flood of equally valid requests for various forums centered around labels other than 'Linux user', I think it would be wise to reconsider opening that door at all.


> what label ? what segregation ? this is not where women are supposed to be confined. it's a forum to promote wider participation of women in the community.


I'm not trying to be rude, but this last portion of your thread sounds very similar to the argument that southern American politicians used to defend the Jim Crow laws of the South years ago. I'm well aware that this forum is not trying to hide any thing such as discrimination of women, but while trying to go in the opposite direction of discrimination this forum has the potential to draw unneeded attention to a label in a way that has no place in this or any other community.

If anyone is interested, take some time to read what Morgan Freeman has said about a similar attempt at relegating the history of black people in America to one month of recognition (when it is really inseperable from the rest of American history):
Morgan Freeman Defies Labels

I know that some here don't think creating a forum specifically for women would be separating women from the rest of the community, but what other possible outcome will it have? And if this forum isn't for drawing unneeded attention to the gender of those who participate in this forum, then why call is 'Ubuntu for Women' at all?

----------


## aysiu

> Because this could open up a flood of equally valid requests for various forums centered around labels other than 'Linux user', I think it would be wise to reconsider opening that door at all.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude, but this last portion of your thread sounds very similar to the argument that southern American politicians used to defend the Jim Crow laws of the South years ago. I'm well aware that this forum is not trying to hide any thing such as discrimination of women, but while trying to go in the opposite direction of discrimination this forum has the potential to draw unneeded attention to a label in a way that has no place in this or any other community.


 I don't think the other requests would be "equally valid" or that the "label" "has no place in this... community."

Women in Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically are severely underrepresented. They make up 50% of the general population (some say 51%), yet they make up only 4% of the users of these forums. You'd be hardpressed to make a case that other groups for whom the floodgates would be opened are underrepresented by that large a margin.

Clearly there is a problem, and ignoring it does not make it go away. As a person of color, I hate it when people say (especially in America) that they "don't see race." What that really means is they don't see race problems, and they hope by treating everyone "equally" that race problems will just go away because they ignore them.

Same for gender. Just because you choose not to see that women are underrepresented in the computing world, it doesn't mean they aren't. For more on this phenomenon, read _Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing_. You could also try reading this entire thread, as your views have already been argued here many times, as have the rebuttals.

----------


## Leif

> Can I not have my voice heard without hanging labels on myself or others for once? Isn't that one of the good things about the Internet? Is it not better to be inclusive to everyone equally? Creating forums centered around various labels begins to make this equal inclusion much harder to do.


that's great. some people also care about being able to express the things that they feel identify them online as well. you want to be anonymous, good for you, but should we not try and help those who want to be openly, heaven forbid, female ?




> I was saying that I'm not for having separate forums for things such as this _unless_ there are separate forums for other labels as well. Because this could open up a flood of equally valid requests for various forums centered around labels other than 'Linux user', I think it would be wise to reconsider opening that door at all.


I don't agree with this "could" logic. You assume that because there's a women's forum someone will want to create a tibetan-buddhist forum. All these other forums you envision happening require a certain number of people to make them happen, and a motivation. This is a bridge to be crossed once we get there. Otherwise we'll stay overawed with the possibilities, discuss things ad infinitum and perhaps never start anything. At least this way we can discuss things ad infinitum and get some good initiatives for women in ubuntu going  :Smile:  

QUOTE=joshuapurcell]
I know that some here don't think creating a forum specifically for women would be separating women from the rest of the community, but what other possible outcome will it have? And if this forum isn't for drawing unneeded attention to the gender of those who participate in this forum, then why call is 'Ubuntu for Women' at all?[/QUOTE]

I agree that the forum could use a better name. But I repeat that this is not a place to segregate women. It's a place to organize initiatives to make ubuntu a more welcoming place for women. 

What Morgan Freeman says is very interesting, and I see his point. Yes, if we could all start seeing eachother as just human, then inequalities would also disappear. But, on the flip side, I don't think people will see eachother as equals until they are, in fact, equals in social status and opportunity. It is only through promoting equality in representation that the respect necessary for everyone can be instilled.

Finally, though, I'd like to point out that by allowing the community chat section, and allowing conversations about non-linux topics at all, these forums encourage the generation of an organic community. I think this is an interesting experiment. In this community, people must be allowed their voice, and to form their own sub-projects if they want to. Unless we shut down the community aspect here, and make it a strictly support forum, any project with enough people behind it deserves its space, and noone has the right to deny them this freedom.

----------


## joshuapurcell

> I don't think the other requests would be "equally valid" or that the "label" "has no place in this... community."
> 
> Women in Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically are severely underrepresented. They make up 50% of the general population (some say 51%), yet they make up only 4% of the users of these forums. You'd be hardpressed to make a case that other groups for whom the floodgates would be opened are underrepresented by that large a margin.
> 
> Clearly there is a problem, and ignoring it does not make it go away. As a person of color, I hate it when people say (especially in America) that they "don't see race." What that really means is they don't see race problems, and they hope by treating everyone "equally" that race problems will just go away because they ignore them.
> 
> Same for gender. Just because you choose not to see that women are underrepresented in the computing world, it doesn't mean they aren't. For more on this phenomenon, read _Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing_. You could also try reading this entire thread, as your views have already been argued here many times, as have the rebuttals.


This is where I'm getting at: How and why does this gender label meet some standard that others aren't meeting? You have said that other minorities aren't discriminated as much as women, but how would you really know when talking about things such as race, religion, or sexual preference? If you have studies to show this is how the forum community is made up, then I'll not bring it up again. The point is that you can't know about some groups since it isn't an issue that is discussed here, and it may not need to be. Also, the arguments I've given are still valid and up for debate even after I've read the entire thread. These arguments are worth repeating if they aren't understood the first time.

----------


## Leif

> This is where I'm getting at: How and why does this gender label meet some standard that others aren't meeting? You have said that other minorities aren't discriminated as much as women, but how would you really know when talking about things such as race, religion, or sexual preference?


Because it's staring us in the face ? Because enough of us know about it ? I have enough friends who've suffered through this to make me a supporter of this forum. If enough people who are being discriminated against in other ways get together and want to put something together, I will support this as well.

----------


## aysiu

I've linked to an entire book written on the subject of women facing challenges in the computing world.

If you can find any indication that gays or buddhists or any other group is severely underrepresented / discriminated against in Linux or computing in general *and* you have a passion for making them feel more comfortable, then start working on getting that forum together. No one's stopping you.

----------


## TeeAhr1

Semi-related: Please see my new thread.

----------


## DevilsAdvocate

The point of a "forum for women" would be to bring more women into Linux?  right.

Do you think a "forum for women" will actually draw women towards linux, even if they were on the edge?  And the women it does draw, what will be the position of this forum relative to the rest of the community in a year or two?  It's sowing dischord.

I think a better way to attract women to Linux would be to add features to it that would be specifically a draw to women.  For example, think of how advertiser's in any other field appeal to women?  I won't cite examples to avoid total flaming.

----------


## Leif

> Do you think a "forum for women" will actually draw women towards linux, even if they were on the edge? And the women it does draw, what will be the position of this forum relative to the rest of the community in a year or two?


So you're saying since it _might_ not work out perfectly, why bother trying ? Why don't we try and see instead.




> It's sowing dischord.


This will settle down eventually. Ubuntu is not the only linux community with a women's initiative, and I'd be surprised if they didn't go through this kind of reaction as well. And even if it doesn't settle down, it's not like controversy is new to the linux community. 




> I think a better way to attract women to Linux would be to add features to it that would be specifically a draw to women.  For example, think of how advertiser's in any other field appeal to women?  I won't cite examples to avoid total flaming.


I don't know what features you're talking about, this still doesn't mean this forum should go away. Assuming your suggested features are valuable, why can't we use both ?

----------


## matthew

> The point of a "forum for women" would be to bring more women into Linux?  right.


No.

You are talking in marketing terms. I am thinking in community terms. Marketing tries to recruit. Community tries to welcome and nurture.

As far as I am concerned marketing Linux is a waste of time...why try to convert people? Let people know it exists...okay.

However, when someone is interested I want them to know they are also welcome, especially those who are so obviously underepresented as women. That's the point of the forum...although it has admittedly been hijacked by a bunch of men arguing over a stupid non-issue. (i.e. if you think this forum is a waste/useless/wrong then just don't participate.)

----------


## DevilsAdvocate

> So you're saying since it _might_ not work out perfectly, why bother trying ? Why don't we try and see instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will settle down eventually. Ubuntu is not the only linux community with a women's initiative, and I'd be surprised if they didn't go through this kind of reaction as well. And even if it doesn't settle down, it's not like controversy is new to the linux community. 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what features you're talking about, this still doesn't mean this forum should go away. Assuming your suggested features are valuable, why can't we use both ?


I'm saying the risks could outweigh the benefits and I believe both are possible.  But, we could try and see certainly.

You could use both but I am suggeting that one would have a positive effect and the other negative.

----------


## DevilsAdvocate

> No.
> 
> You are talking in marketing terms. I am thinking in community terms. Marketing tries to recruit. Community tries to welcome and nurture.
> 
> As far as I am concerned marketing Linux is a waste of time...why try to convert people? Let people know it exists...okay.
> 
> However, when someone is interested I want them to know they are also welcome, especially those who are so obviously underepresented as women. That's the point of the forum...although it has admittedly been hijacked by a bunch of men arguing over a stupid non-issue. (i.e. if you think this forum is a waste/useless/wrong then just don't participate.)


Mathew I believe you are not talking in marketing terms, but I believe marketing is part of the idea behind a "forum for women."  I ask you this?  Why would a forum for women be necessary if it's simply to make them feel welcomed and such?  Aren't the standard forums friendly, welcome, and unbiased (excluding MS sentiment)?

----------


## Leif

> Mathew I believe you are not talking in marketing terms, but I believe marketing is part of the idea behind a "forum for women."  I ask you this?  Why would a forum for women be necessary if it's simply to make them feel welcomed and such?  Aren't the standard forums friendly, welcome, and unbiased (excluding MS sentiment)?


no, not always. just yesterday someone was asking to be treated like a blonde woman to illustrate how stupid he is with regards to linux. and this forum is meant to foster a better environment for women in linux in general, regardless of the forums themselves.

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## DevilsAdvocate

So we should we have a forum specifically for blonde women too?

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## isotonic

I kind gave up reading the arguments after the first page here. All I have to say is I don't see why all the fuss really in having a women's group, or any other special interest group (SIG) within the broader community. That's the whole point of a SIG and you shouldn't have to justify it to others if they choose not to participate.

Get over yourselves, people.

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## dvarsam

Hello!




> What's the point... of having a separate forum for women?


Cause it sounds good! :Very Happy:  

We could even call it:




> Women's Panties - No strings attached!


 :Mr. Green:

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## K.Mandla

> ... What's the point... of having a separate forum for women?


What's the harm?

----------


## Stormy Eyes

> Can I not have my voice heard without hanging labels on myself or others for once?


I agree. This is the f---ing internet. For all you know, I could be a cat. Does it really matter if I'm a cat or a human being? Not really. Does it matter if I'm male or female, or whether I'm straight, bisexual, or gay? Not really. Does it really matter where I was born or where I live? Not really. Does it really matter if I worship one god, many gods, or no gods at all? Not really.

Perhaps I'm feeling a bit idealistic today, but this whole "Oh, we don't have enough of group X" makes me want to commit grab my sledgehammer and start busting heads. Whatever happened to extending a welcoming hand to anybody who knows his **** or is willing to make an effort and learn? Patience and willingness to learn isn't a trait exclusive to men, or to women, or to Americans, or to Europeans. They're traits that anybody can have, and the ones who are patient and willing to learn are the ones we should be courting -- no matter what their gender, sexual preference, ethnicity, religion, or political persuasion.

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## yaaarrrgg

I think there are at least two issues here, and many valid points that support each side.

For one, there is the moral issue of putting people into groups (like male/female).  This fundamentally contradicts the ideals of ubuntu...that all people should be seen without predudice and differentiation.

Also there is the practical issue.  As long as women prefer windows to linux, linux is never going to be compete with windows in any serious way as a desktop OS.  The female demographic is as large as the male demographic, and will have a say on what gets installed on family computers.  In this case, where both people can use windows, but only one person can use linux, linux makes no sense to use.  If one adheres perfectly to the ideals of ubuntu then linux will suffer. 

I think the best route is a compromise between ideals, and practical issues.  Of course it also means we lose the purity of strict ubuntu fundamentalism.  :Smile:

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## BWF89

Unless you have a name thats like "hotchick20234" or "princess23023" whos gonna know your a girl?

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## Stormy Eyes

> and will have a say on what gets installed on family computers.


Not if the men get backbones and insist on their right to decide what OS the computer they paid for will run. Ladies, if you want to run Windows, buy your own computers. Don't move into a man's house and expect him to change his OS for your sake; we already give you our closets and put up with questions like "Does this skirt make me look fat?"

----------


## kassetra

> Not if the men get backbones and insist on their right to decide what OS the computer they paid for will run. Ladies, if you want to run Windows, buy your own computers. Don't move into a man's house and expect him to change his OS for your sake; we already give you our closets and put up with questions like "Does this skirt make me look fat?"


Of course... the same can be said for all the guys that move into the woman's apartment - because hers is always clean - don't touch her computer and don't expect her to change whatever it is that she runs - get your own computer and stop using her superior hardware.  :Razz:   It's bad enough that we can't sign on to a game server with our usual screen names without getting, "DUDE!  You're a CHICK?!  WILL YOU MARRY ME?!"  (or worse.)

*snicker*

----------


## KiwiNZ

The answer is mutual respect . This applies not only in marriage but in all walks of life.

Be aware of others needs as well as your own. Give, take and compromise.
 Seek always a solution that fits all.

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## yaaarrrgg

> Not if the men get backbones and insist on their right to decide what OS the computer they paid for will run.


Unfortunately, most guys run Windows too.  So a brute force tactic will not really help linux that much either.

How a product is "sold" is almost more important than the product itself.  I think Microsoft understands this, but  linux folks tend to focus only on technical merits.

Do you think AOL would have been as popular if it didn't specifically target women?  Or Tai Bo?  Or SUV's (which are just macho mini vans).  Women are a key component to winning the desktop (and possibly the only realistic chance linux has).  You can't ignore this demographic and expect success.

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## BWF89

@yaaarrrgg: Linux can't very well target women, or regular non-techie people in general until we get better hardware detection (Linux didn't recognise my last 2 Canon printers) and get the OS about as easy to use as Windows.

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## Stormy Eyes

> It's bad enough that we can't sign on to a game server with our usual screen names without getting, "DUDE!  You're a CHICK?!  WILL YOU MARRY ME?!"  (or worse.)


I can't do that either, and I'm _not_ a "chick".

----------


## yaaarrrgg

> @yaaarrrgg: Linux can't very well target women, or regular non-techie people in general until we get better hardware detection (Linux didn't recognise my last 2 Canon printers) and get the OS about as easy to use as Windows.


True, but you are focusing only on the technical aspects of the problem.  

For example, Mac OS has much worse hardware support, and effectively limits what you can use.  Although Mac understands good marketing better than Microsoft (the recent macs ads are great).  No one really thinks much about Macs restricting hardware, because the ads focus on creativity and freedom.

Also, Ubuntu is already user friendly enough for women to use ... My wife loves it, and the other day, her mom was over and used it with no questions.  I was pleasantly shocked.

A while back I used to work in marketing (editing TV ads).  It might be an exageration, but I would say the quality of a product has nothing to do with the commercial success (look at pop music).  There's the product, and the marketing.  Each is important.  

But the issue with this debate is that many times we only look at a one-dimensional slice of a multi-dimensional problem.  Reminds me of the parable of the elephant, in Buddhism.  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points, just noting that the technical problems are only part of the picture.  Good marketing can solve some of the the worst techincal problems, and even make them look like added features.

A forum for women would be a great way to get feedback on what women want (in terms of apps, features, games, etc).  If you can get the women, the guys will follow.

----------


## EdThaSlayer

gender equality. We should treat them the same way they treat us  :Smile:

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## aysiu

If you found out that your arm was getting only 4% of the nutrients that the rest of your body was getting, would you consider it favoritism or "reverse discrimination" to get that arm examined but not your whole body?

Wouldn't you think that something's wrong and that your arm should get special attention, at least until you can make sure it gets the proper nutrients the rest of your body's been getting?

Women make up at least 50% of the world population, but if this forum is any indication of how they are in Linux, they make up around 5% of the Linux-using population at best.

Clearly, there's something wrong that needs to be addressed.

I don't see cat users or gay users (or whatever other ridiculous comparisons people want to make) as being in any way underrepresented in Linux use. Sorry, but you can joke about it all you want--women aren't made to feel comfortable with Linux, and that's a real problem. Some women (the 5% already here) don't care and will just go ahead and use it anyway. Good for them. That doesn't mean there's no problem.

Read more here:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

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## thunderduck3141

i dont see any reason for there not to be women using linux, the more the merrier i always say 
but special attention should not be given to them
it is like scholorships for just minorities, dicrimanation that is looked down appon
but by all means encourage women to get into linux, my gf had never even heard of it before, now she uses ubuntu on her (shudders) mac (oooo how i dispise macs, but they fight micrososft, so the enemy of my enemy)

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## aysiu

And I suppose if the steering in your car is misaligned, you'd rather just keep driving it that way so as not to be discriminatory against any other part of your car... instead of just fixing the alignment.

After all, why should the left side of your car receive special treatment?

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## dronepower

5% using linux is very little indeed. 
Here at home I make my Ubuntu girlfriend proof.

She only needs to click on the firefox and evolution icon and she is happy with that.

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## melissawm

Just my 2 cents...

Regarding the utility of this forum: most of you must live in the US, or Europe, right? So you know, women go to school, they go to the university, they have virtually the same opportunities men have, right?

Have you seen a thread here about brazilian ubuntu (women) users? Well, in Brazil, things are not as pretty: that does include men as well as women. But the culture is still very different, and it does discriminate against women when we think about computers, science and math. I know - I'm a mathematician (the only girl in the class), a linux user and IT'S NOT EASY. Many things are involved, but let's stay in focus.

One of the objectives with the forums and ubuntu itself is to make linux popular, right? Show the people it can be used by anyone. Well, in Brazil, women are already scared of computers - not because they are stupid, but because they were never shown how it works, or because they always heard it was "not for women", which is the same thing that happens in science and math. Now, do i think this is exclusively a women's problem? NO. But is it worse with women? Absolutely!!! And I do think we could think of alternatives and projects to make women more familiar with linux.

Heck, if you go to a LUG - there are only guys most of the time!! And they DO look down on you most of the time for being a girl, that is a fact. So I would just like to say that, maybe this forum is not useful for you guys, but I do think it could be useful for many things - including the organization of projects that could bring women to realize they would be happier with linux..

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## kassetra

> So I would just like to say that, maybe this forum is not useful for you guys, but I do think it could be useful for many things - including the organization of projects that could bring women to realize they would be happier with linux..


Exactly the point.   :Smile:

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## jenred

Thank you kassetra and melissawm!

I've been lurking around this forum for many months to see what direction it might take -- and I think that one very positive possiblity is exploring ways women in the West...

(where we have basically the same opportunities as men, and they are usually protected by law - I know, I know but when you compare our situation to many many many women in other places we are EXTREMELY fortunate. Do a little traveling outside the US, Canada, and Europe and you will see to what I refer)

...might contribute to helping women, in less gender equal societies, "even the playing field" through technology.  

Men are allowed and encouraged to help!

Guess I should finally post something with regards to the above. 

Jen

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## kadymae

To me a forum like this a way of sending up a flare that (like comics) Linux is for EVERYONE, including women, who are welcome here.

Though it is less so on these forums than some others I have perused, there is a certain "boys club" mentality to computers, and more often than not, when a woman makes a (valid) unpopular point, she's likely to be attacked with a _gender_ based ad-hominem attack. 

---

And, as an aside, why not a GLBunTu board?

I mean, I don't think GLBT linux users face quite the same issues of "othering" and "no girls in the clubhouse" that many women face in computer and gaming forums, but hey, I'm willing to be educated, and if it's another way to promote the ideas and ideals behind Ubuntu, I don't see anything wrong with asking for a forum to be set up.

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## kadymae

> No one can find out anything about you on the internet unless _you tell them_


I know you meant this well, your arguement boils down to "if women just take gender neutral names, most people in tech forums will assume they're men and all will be well."

I. Don't. Think. So.

It's the equvalent of *"passing".

There's nothing wrong with who I am.  There's nothing wrong with being a woman.

I want to travel in circles where I don't have hide who I am or pretend to be something else in order to be taken seriously or be treated equally.


---
* in case you don't know what passing is --

Passing refers to the ability of a person to be regarded as a member of a particular group other than his or her own, such as a different race, ethnicity, class, sex, or disability status, *generally with the purpose of gaining social acceptance*.

(Emphasis mine)

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## aysiu

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

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## monkieie

I can't just read through all of this *emotion* and not give my two penneth-worth...

Being a European I can't help but get the impression that the US tends to over-egg the pudding as far as equality is concerned. Equality is good and right and certainly belongs in our modern society but do we have to segregate certain classes to "equalize" them? As was previously mentioned here, the forum as a whole is open to anyone who feels free and I honestly haven't been aware that it is necessary to have a seperate part for girls  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

HAVING SAID THAT though - feel free ladies. I don't know what irritates people about this whole issue. After all, nobody forces anybody into looking into this area. Okay, I personally may not find it necessary but that is, after all, only my personal opinion. Anything which may encourage more girls into computing - especially linux  :Wink:  can only be a good thing.

Just for the record; my experience shows that of the girls who DO get interested in computing, quite often can indeed kick our proverbial bottoms.

Many a time in CS have I been humiliated by the female species  :Brick wall:

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## nursegirl

I'm surprised that we've reached 9 pages without anyone talking about the general value of diversity.

An example: I'm a 5'2" woman. If I were to design a car by myself or with other short women, we wouldn't spend much time thinking about things like adjustable headrests, the height of the roof of the car, how far back the seats can slide, etc. Not because I don't like tall people, but because I don't really understand what it's like to be tall.

If I were to invite my 6'4" friend to design the car with me, suddenly we'd be making a car that would be comfortable for many, many more people. But, he's *very* skinny, and I'm about average, so we would probably never design a car with care towards the needs of larger people.

None of this is even necessarily about prejudice, or bigotry, just the normal inability that we have to live outside our skins enough to *really* get other people's needs.

So, if a larger person were to sit in a car that I've developed, they will feel a little uncomfortable. Perhaps physically, or perhaps everything might physically fit, but feel slightly "off". The shifting column might be slightly too close or too far, the headrest might be mildly uncomfortable. What happens over time is that there's this build-up of psychic distress. This vague sense that "this is not for me."

As a woman involved with computers, I'll often find myself experiencing a mild psychic discomfort about different forums, mailing lists and IRC channels. It's hard to pin down why, but something doesn't fit me.

Now, Ubuntu's been the best tech community I've ever been in, but  there's always room for growth. The more we actively encourage women to be involved, the less likely women are to experience the discomfort that comes from being involved in communities and using tech products that were built "by men for men."

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## Leif

> EDITED:
> 
> kvidell is right, this is my point:
> 
> ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
> ubuntu for gays | lesbians
> ubuntu for transsexuals
> ubuntu for physically handicapped people
> ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
> ...


They are not. This subforum was created, and stays in existence, due to demand. People want it, there is demonstrable inequality in representation, fair reason to believe there should be action to balance it, and there's no reason against it, and that's all there is to it. Quite a few people have posted in this thread, proving that the demand is there.

As for gay, lesbian, transsexual etc. forums, if there is a demand for them, I for one will heartily endorse their creation. Having a women's forum doesn't preclude opening other forums.

I know I've said more or less the same thing on other threads in this forum, and I'm sorry for the repetition. It's just that the same questions seem to keep popping up.

Also, let's not pick on the suse people. I know we're all jealous of that chameleon mascot  :Smile:

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## aysiu

I don't see how "afro(whatever)-people," GLBT, physically handicapped people, etc. are in any way as underrepresented as women are in Ubuntu.

Women make up over 50% of the general population and only 4% of the Ubuntu population. That seems like a pretty serious issue to me.

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## monkieie

> Women make up over 50% of the general population and only 4% of the Ubuntu population. That seems like a pretty serious issue to me.


Yes but it's hardly any wonder really. If you consider how many women are intereseted in computers / IT at all, it's only a small minority. Of those users of course you then have to divide them up between Windows, Linux, MAC etc users. I for one would welcome it if my girlfriend would be more intereseted in computing but try as I can, it just isn't her thing at all (she's more into art).

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## aysiu

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-...OWTO/x106.html

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## deanjm1963

I think it's an awesome idea for a Ubuntu Womens forum. Women are so underestimated in the IT field, and especially in the opensource area, it gives those who wish to participate in the forum a congenial environment to put forward ideas, etc. 

Has anyone taken a look at the latest Gentoo Weekly Newsletter?

If there isn't a good enough reason for a Womens Forum here, this is certainly it.

Just scroll down and check out some of their main players

The Gentoo Boyz

 :Smile:

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## monkieie

> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-...OWTO/x106.html


There are some good points in there but in the case of my partner I believe that there are two root causes:

_She doesn't like technical applications
She is too lazy to learn._

She never has liked any technical issues but was always more inclined towards the arts and as far as laziness is concerned I am not being derogatory but she simply spends her free-time in other ways. I believe that even if she were a man, she wouldn't be into computers either.

Where I do agree with the link however is that many women simply lack a healthy portion of self-confidence. They should learn to be a bit more pushy and a tiny-bit self-centered...in a healthy way of course  :Mr. Green:

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## webman

> EDITED:
> 
> kvidell is right, this is my point:
> 
> ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
> ubuntu for gays | lesbians
> ubuntu for transsexuals
> ubuntu for physically handicapped people
> ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
> ...


I agree. it would be nice to have them join, however I don't agree they (women) need their own format ie. women ubuntu. We need to think of people as computer users that use Ubuntu. No special favor or attention. Ithink the only seperation that should be present is level of expertise.

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## _simon_

> The more we actively encourage women to be involved, the less likely women are to experience the discomfort that comes from being involved in communities and using tech products that were built "by men for men."


I'm trying to get my head around this paragraph! 

I think this "discomfort" is down to each individual person, my other half is involved in many different types of community. She is registered on here but isn't techie at all and so does not participate. It's not because she doesn't feel comfortable, simply that she doesn't care for the subjects catered for on here. 

What I am trying to say, all be it very badly is that you cannot encourage people to join in that have no interest in joining in. Compared to men, women aren't as techie hence why there are so few females on the forums compared to men. 

My other half knows there is an "Ubuntu Women" section but still has no inclination to take part even though she uses Ubuntu.

People will use what they want, people will take part in what they want. 

You could hold a huge PR campaing tomorrow - TV, Radio, Bill Boards, Womens magazines! etc and I'm pretty sure it would have no impact on the current size of the "female ubuntu community".

I think the idea was worth trying out but has it been a success?

One forum that I administrate has a female community of about 95%. We trialled a technology section and kept it updated with various security alerts etc.... I have since removed it as it simply was not a subject any of the female members were interested in. So what if there was a new Windows vulnerability? I wrote a post trying to win over a few users to linux. One woman showed interest but alas her tech knowledge was next to non existant and without physically spending lots of time with her I could not even help her try linux.

You have to be technology inclined in order to be on any type of tech forum. Encouragment won't help...

Sorry - think I rambled a lot there!

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## monkieie

> You have to be technology inclined in order to be on any type of tech forum. Encouragment won't help...
> 
> Sorry - think I rambled a lot there!


don't be sorry Simon - I agree wholeheartedly with you. That is the whole point - if you're not into these things then you're not into them. No two ways about it.

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## nursegirl

> That is the whole point - if you're not into these things then you're not into them. No two ways about it.


I would agree with you to some degree, except the FLOSSPOLS  Women in Free Software Report  (or see the  presentation with summary - pdf alert) shows that in proprietary software, 28% of the developers are female, while in Free/Libre Open Source Software, only 1.5% of the developers are female.  I think that it's meaningful for open source projects to ask why are females more interested/willing/comfortable working on proprietary products rather than open source projects. What is it about F/LOSS projects that make even technologically skilled women less likely to step forward?

Debian Women, Ubuntu Women, Linux Chix, etc. are there to help us find the answers to those questions and support us becoming communities where technologically-inclined women feel just as welcome/comfortable/able to contribute as they do in the world of proprietary software.

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## nikkiana

> I would agree with you to some degree, except the FLOSSPOLS  Women in Free Software Report  (or see the  presentation with summary - pdf alert) shows that in proprietary software, 28% of the developers are female, while in Free/Libre Open Source Software, only 1.5% of the developers are female.  I think that it's meaningful for open source projects to ask why are females more interested/willing/comfortable working on proprietary products rather than open source projects. What is it about F/LOSS projects that make even technologically skilled women less likely to step forward?
> 
> Debian Women, Ubuntu Women, Linux Chix, etc. are there to help us find the answers to those questions and support us becoming communities where technologically-inclined women feel just as welcome/comfortable/able to contribute as they do in the world of proprietary software.


I can really only speak for myself, but I find I'm hesitant to contribute to any sort of open source project despite the fact that I know I'm probably quite capable of doing so because it would cut into time spent on other interests and hobbies that I enjoy more than programming. 

One of the things that I noticed while I was in school was the fact that some of the guys I knew were REALLY into programming... They wanted to spend every waking moment programming whatever their creation was... I remember time and time again feeling kinda inferior because I just simply didn't like programming as much as some of my classmates did. Sure, I did my work, passed it in and got good grades but I always did the bare minimum because I wanted nothing more to move on to doing something that I found more personally rewarding.... Like, say, knitting. 

Sad to say, I probably will be more likely to end up working on a propritary project... Not because I feel more comfortable, but more because I need a job and I need to eat, and programming pays the bills. To me, it's a skill set for a job, not a passion that I want to spend every waking minute on... 

While I apperciate everything all the open source programmers do, I just don't have the drive to be one of them....

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## monkieie

> I can really only speak for myself, but I find I'm hesitant to contribute to any sort of open source project despite the fact that I know I'm probably quite capable of doing so because it would cut into time spent on other interests and hobbies that I enjoy more than programming.


good point. Isn't it common knowledge anyway that women are more "sociable" creatures than their male contemporaries? I can certainly believe that women place more value on social intercourse than men do and let's face it, to get really into programming of any kind does kind of demand a *lot* of time in front of the monitor.

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## matjaz_pirnovar

Hey guys,

Just popped onto forum and saw this section...

Now are we talking about the gender/sex or part of Ubuntu world who have difficulties getting it?

Dividing on men and woman seem totally old fashioned to me, to be polite.

I have seen more then enough girl-friends that are as good or much better experts in computer world than several others. So please, let's drop gender division.
Well, why the percentage of women in Ubuntu is small (4%)..well, that's another issue...

I think, why would it need to be higher? When you don't force anyone into things they don't resonate with and when you drop too high expectations, small percentage wouldn't even look like a problem.
What is wrong with small percentage?

Why not staying open to everyone who likes (the spirit of) Ubuntu and things will work out fine. I think we perhaps make too big deal out of male/female participation. 

To put it philosophically: When there is spirit and community is open...things should work out right.

 :Smile: 

Matjaz

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## aysiu

> To put it philosophically: When there is spirit and community is open...things should work out right.


 I guess the issue is that even the people who say, "We're all just human," often do not create a community that is "open" but include sexist remarks and exclusive language in everyday conversation on the forums.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-...x28.html#AEN41

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## TravisNewman

aysiu, how do you always seem to have a relevant link for everything?  :Wink: 

anyway, matjaz, I'd suggest reading what I've wrote about Ubuntu Women in the past. There is no separation of the sexes here. That's in fact what htis is fighting against

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## aysiu

> aysiu, how do you always seem to have a relevant link for everything?


 When I don't have a relevant link... I don't post. No, seriously, though--I bookmark. When I find a good link, I have a folder specifically for Linux stuff.

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## matjaz_pirnovar

anyway, matjaz, I'd suggest reading what I've wrote about Ubuntu Women in the past. There is no separation of the sexes here. That's in fact what htis is fighting against[/QUOTE]

Yep, thanks. I have gone through some of the postings.

Good topic though. Won't attend at the moment, since I feel it can drag me into it and will be diverted from other things I'm doing. Will be in touch though...

Though I think that initial title of the thread is misleading: "why do we need women?"

Who is "we"?

Ubuntu community, technical 'world', something else?

Let's be precise. Otherwise the title itself could carry sexistic flavor.

Smile.

M

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## nikkiana

> I guess the issue is that even the people who say, "We're all just human," often do not create a community that is "open" but include sexist remarks and exclusive language in everyday conversation on the forums.
> 
> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-...x28.html#AEN41


That was an interesting read... But it did cause me to ask myself a question...

At what point are women taking what the men they talk to on tech mailing lists, messsage boards and work with say far too seriously? 

If it had been me who had been the chick with a hardware problem in question and someone fellow blamed it on "female stress" I wouldn't have chalked it up to sexism... I would of thought he was teasing and making a joke... and in fact, that's what I did think was going on and was rather surprised at the offended responce as I kept reading the conversation. 

I sometimes wonder if the problem doesn't lie so much in men being sexist as it does in women being too serious too much of the time. 

Just a thought...

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## aysiu

The two aren't mutually exclusive--you can be "just teasing" and being sexist at the same time.

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## Sef

> can really only speak for myself, but I find I'm hesitant to contribute to any sort of open source project despite the fact that I know I'm probably quite capable of doing so because it would cut into time spent on other interests and hobbies that I enjoy more than programming.
> 
> One of the things that I noticed while I was in school was the fact that some of the guys I knew were REALLY into programming... They wanted to spend every waking moment programming whatever their creation was... I remember time and time again feeling kinda inferior because I just simply didn't like programming as much as some of my classmates did. Sure, I did my work, passed it in and got good grades but I always did the bare minimum because I wanted nothing more to move on to doing something that I found more personally rewarding.... Like, say, knitting.


This post by nikkiana points out the different ways that boys and girls are taught what is important.

Girls are taught to socialize first then accomplish.

Boys are taught to accomplish first then socialize.

Hence for girls the path is more important than the goal.  For boys the goal is more important than the path.

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## frup

i havent read every post here but i have 2 things i want too add...

ubuntu for women... a way to stratagise getting more women to linux? mostly men isnt it.. the automatically doubled linux users?


as far as i know current scientific thought considers women socialise more as this is the main for of grooming in human apes. as female monkeys need to group together and socialise for survival and "culture" they groom more, males often form bachelor colonies or go by themselves solo. so they dont need/learn to talk as much...

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## gamerchick02

Wow.  This is a really interesting thread.  I started reading it last week, got away from the computer, and just finished it up.

I do have a couple things to add:

I went to a mostly male school in the Midwest (Kettering in Flint MI, for anyone who's interested).  Attitudes there were very accepting of women in my degree program (mechanical engineering).  I can't speak for the other degree programs, but in my interactions with students in other degree progams men and women worked together.  This is not to say that there are men who don't have problems with women in their degree programs, because there are.  I'm just saying that I had a good experience there.

However, I did seek out a women's group.  Men weren't excluded, but women were highly encouraged to attend this group.  It made me feel more welcome in the general community of Kettering students.  Being in a mostly-female group helped me become more tuned to what was going on at the school.  I was able to be in the mostly-female group, and then go out to my classes (which were mostly guys) and interact much better with them, because I felt more at ease.

I think that's what this women's group is trying to do.  It's a place for women to feel comfortable in a male-dominated community (like my college).  It may help the women involved with Ubuntu become more comfortable with the community, if they have a place to chat with other women who have similar interests.

I don't know if that's what this community was started for, but that is my two cents.   :Smile: 

Amy

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## aysiu

Thanks for sharing your experience, Amy. My understanding of this Ubuntu women project is the same as yours.

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## nikkiana

Very well said, Amy. I agree with you 100%.

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## matjaz_pirnovar

Agree with you Amy. Well put. 

I believe it would contribute greatly also to Ubuntu.

PS: Maybe there could be section on Ubuntu forum, available (specifically) for women for similar purposes.
Anybody thought of that? Any ideas?

 :Smile: 
Matjaz

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## Chemroydal Tissue

Just a quick question, and slightly off-topic, but are there any moderators who are women on the forums?

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## -Phi-

kassetra used to be a mod. Not sure who else.

- Phi

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## akak8ty

My experience with some of these guys here has been that they have their heads where the sun doesn't shine.

SO if you want a decent answer, or to know how to do something without a cynical response- *ASK A WOMAN*

We get the job done, we don't act like ego maniacs with inferiority complexes- and the most helpful person in the forum when I first began *WAS A WOMAN*.

There are chauvinistic pigs in some of these threads, so don't be offended, just come here if you want to know the answer to a question with out getting the proverbial run around because you are a woman.
Be honored that this thread has been started- 
*WOMEN ARE THE COMPETENT ONES*. *\o/* =D> =D> =D> =D>

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## akak8ty

For the record I drink double espresso's. 
Leave the beans for the men. They are full of them  :Wink:  

 :Whistle:

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## aysiu

> We get the job done, we don't act like ego maniacs with inferiority complexes


 Yeah, I hate it when they claim to be IT experts and can't figure out how to burn an ISO or know how to ask for help properly.

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## akak8ty

> Yeah, I hate it when they claim to be IT experts and can't figure out how to burn an ISO or know how to ask for help properly.


Its difficult to ask for help when upon my first inquiry was offended by the candor of those responded- and I am not that frail. 

A friend of mine and I were discussing that we really try to avoid this forum because people are too *cynical*. 

The only reason I logged on today was to because my X server went bonkers and would not let me log in. I actually got what I needed elsewere- but had to comment on the womens thread, because its so typical for the mentality I have encountered here to separate genders.

Like I said, I got far more helpful and sincere input and a fully working version of Ubuntu outside of the forum. 

I personally am not an IT expert, but it was once my job to over see a bunch of lazy men who would rather play computer games then help my support staff meet deadlines because their system was down. It was great fun to take their keys and escort them off the property.

Your retort Dr psychocat is once again null.

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## jperez

Well, I for one am happy that there is a forum just for women, and I am male.  I agree with it being here since I know many women don't think the way we do.  Sure, I tend to be "a guy" when it comes to certain things, but I try to think in both aspects to help out those around me, male or female and having grown up with my mother, my older sis and younger sis (yes, I am the middle child), I know things can be done differently.  Like they say, a woman's touch.  I like that this forum is up so that any women I recommend Ubuntu to, I can let them know about it.  Keep up the great work ladies!

Jesse~

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## tagra123

> EDITED:
> 
> kvidell is right, this is my point:
> 
> ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
> ubuntu for gays | lesbians
> ubuntu for transsexuals
> ubuntu for physically handicapped people
> ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
> ...


Don't forget 

ubuntu for rednecks

ubuntu for the rest-of-us

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## akak8ty

Yes, I do have to agree. There doesn't need to be a separate thread for women, and not other special interests groups.
Its *Ubuntu For People* isn't it? 
So far I've encountered some pretty big (word I am not allowed to say-per the forum nazi's :Rolling Eyes: )

But I must confess, a woman does a better job  :Wink: 





> Don't forget 
> 
> ubuntu for rednecks
> 
> ubuntu for the rest-of-us

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## ExMachina

We need women bc they smell good.. and like some have said are more forgiving with people who may not know exactly how to ask a question or just need to know somthing "stupid".. 

GO GO WOMEN YOU ROCK...

----------


## elpuerco

The 'women only' thing narks me a tad!

Going off topic here...

But why do women feel they need to infiltrate everything?  If they see a men only club they take it to court if they are not allowed in etc etc.

But at the same time we have to put up with women only swimming sessions, women only car insurance etc etc.  But if there was a man only swimming session or car insurance you can bet they would start shouting.

Lest us not forget at the same time they expect the doors to be held open for them, women first etc etc.

DONT FLAME ME, just sayin how I see it  :Confused:

----------


## akak8ty

Growing up we had a different meaning for 'nark' at least in the states. I think AU and GB have another meaning.
It bothers me a bit as well- but its not surprising to me on this forum- and I am a woman.
I don't believe there needs to be a separate forums for any particular group- as we are all the same.
My first inception into Ubuntu I was quite taken back by the condescending attitudes of the men. 
It was a woman's input (Ann, with numbers-667 I believe) that lead me in the right direction- and further readings online
I found that others felt the same way, so it wasn't just me
This topic has come up in another forum and I can't believe in this day and age it would be an issue- but in the reign of the Bushevick Regime we have indeed gone backwards, even downhill in the states.
Its difficult for me. Especially when reading the definition of Ubuntu, and my first experience was quite the opposite.
Unfortunately it is clear to me there is male chauvanism still looming, and feminism. A sure sign of gender insecure people to be so extreme.
I personally don't share the beliefs of either group. 
I guess I am not so hung up on myself, and as a person feel socially tolerant towards all of human kind.
I apreciate your confusion because there really does not need to be a separate forum here for women. 
We are talking about a computer program, *not* gender specific issues.
I won't flame you, because when I was very new to the program, that was what I was subject to- by the men. (One may have been a woman- it's hard to tell with images and names) I was very offended, and further flamed for expressing it, or attepmting to stand up for myself. Very unpalatable. But again, I was not alone in my experience, as was clearly validated by others on a private level. 

Fortunately Ubuntu has enough to peak my interest further, (even though its clear to me Dapper Drake may still be a work in progress, and proved that by pulling an msn act by releasing an unstable upgrade) I realize that social ignorance is still quite prevalent in society. That is quite unfortunate indeed.
Clearly the direction we are going- as Einstien said WWIV will indeed be fought with sticks and stones-
Thanks guys for leading us BACK to the stone age.

----------


## Lin-X

Why do women "need to infiltrate everything"? Because culturally "everything" is automatically labeled MALE. Example: the PGA, Professional Golf Associatione is for men; women have the LPGA --- why don't men have to have the MPGA? Same with almost every other institution. Women are either barred or they are ignored. Maybe this forum is not so bad, but when I started using Linux four years ago, I soon saw the need to present myself online as male. I developed several personas for different forums; to this day, there is one forum where the members think I am a middle-aged man who is semi-retired from teaching highschool history classes, and another where I am known as a fifteen year old boy. I didn't do this because I thought it was funny, I did it because on many forums my posts were simply ignored (Knoppix for one), or I was flamed or scolded for being "stupid" (that's the nicest word applied to me.) I can't believe I am the only one who has experienced this.

As for having a Women's Forum here, I am very leary of the "special women's group" thing. In my experience this often leads to a kind of ghettoism that simply pushes women's ideas to the side so men don't have to be exposed to them. It can also backfire in another way: men don't visit women's groups. The very ideas and viewpoints that might help women's assimilation into
"everything" are never seen by men; only other women go there. It's preaching to the choir. I don't mean that this is so on this forum necessarily, or that I think there should not be a women's forum; I just don't see the need and have mixed feelings about the idea.

One last thing, what makes you think women "expect to have doors opened" for them. If you don't want to do that, don't. No one is going to care.

----------


## aysiu

Ubuntu Women is hardly a woman's ghetto, especially since most of the people who post here are men... or claim to be men (how will we ever know?).

And some women do expect to have doors opened for them. Others don't mind. Others despise it. People vary in tastes, cultures, expectations, and experiences.

I'm a man, and I love having doors opened for me. I'll be offended if someone opens a door for a woman and doesn't open one for me, too.

I'm rather surprised that you had to pretend to be a man to have your questions answered. Generally (and granted, things may have changed in the last few years on the Linux scene), I've found that men will bend over backwards to help Linux users who appear to be women. If anything, the annoying thing appears to be men hitting on new users who appear to be women. That's another problem altogether...

----------


## akak8ty

> Ubuntu Women is hardly a woman's ghetto, especially since most of the people who post here are men... or claim to be men (how will we ever know?).
> 
> And some women do expect to have doors opened for them. Others don't mind. Others despise it. People vary in tastes, cultures, expectations, and experiences.
> 
> I'm a man, and I love having doors opened for me. I'll be offended if someone opens a door for a woman and doesn't open one for me, too.
> 
> I'm rather surprised that you had to pretend to be a man to have your questions answered. Generally (and granted, things may have changed in the last few years on the Linux scene), I've found that men will bend over backwards to help Linux users who appear to be women. If anything, the annoying thing appears to be men hitting on new users who appear to be women. That's another problem altogether...


Yes, I have to agree with aysiu. Its a little scary at your need to change identities, however. If you can't say what you need to as the very person you are- there is a problem.
Now I know in the states, the Bush regime has sent us spiraling backwards, that's no excuse. They'll also be our demise.

I hold doors for everyone and that is sometimes tricky to do NOW with a cane in one hand, trying to hold myself up and the door for others.
I have always been that way, and my disability didn't stop my desire to do the next right thing for the person in front, or behind me regardless of gender- we are human beings first. 
In this day and age gender shouldn't even be an issue, although I am aware in some cultures it is. That is most unfortunate indeed.

Ohh- I realize I said something similar a couple posts up- so at least I am consistent in what I think and how  feel  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  I have one identity. A 40 something woman with a passion for all there is in life who now lives in screaming pain every day, and can no longer do all there is in life. Technology I can still do...but its not enough any more. :Sad:

----------


## Lord Illidan

> Ubuntu Women is hardly a woman's ghetto, especially since most of the people who post here are men... or claim to be men (how will we ever know?).
> 
> And some women do expect to have doors opened for them. Others don't mind. Others despise it. People vary in tastes, cultures, expectations, and experiences.
> 
> I'm a man, and I love having doors opened for me. I'll be offended if someone opens a door for a woman and doesn't open one for me, too.
> 
> I'm rather surprised that you had to pretend to be a man to have your questions answered. Generally (and granted, things may have changed in the last few years on the Linux scene), I've found that men will bend over backwards to help Linux users who appear to be women. If anything, the annoying thing appears to be men hitting on new users who appear to be women. That's another problem altogether...


Aye, if I know a user is a woman, I'll help her out even more...go out of my way...especially if she looks good, hehe!

----------


## Lin-X

Well, lucky you! all of you who have never had any problem in Linux forums because you are female! I have had. 

I did not say I couldn't say what I had to as my real identity; I said that when I used my real identity, I was invisible or slammed for being who I was.

I did not say that this women's forum was a ghetto; I only remarked that setting aside seperate areas for women within a larger group can lead to a weird kind of banishment. I've seen this many times in many types of environment. In any case, I don't really see a need for a women's forum, but it I don't object to it.

(Gee, this woman seems upset and critical. We wonder what's wrong with her. Maybe she's just imagining it. ... where have I heard that before?)

----------


## akak8ty

been there done that. my first day was riddled my ignorance by mostly men who were berating my experience in the IT genre, but we never used Linux- only windows platforms.

Thank Goodness someone published an article written by an IT professional who felt the same way when he got here- I believe he called it being "flamed by the fan boys" I have a few choice words for it myself, but they are not appropriate for this forum- being over 40 I was mature enough to rise above the ignorance, and have a fairly decent working system ...NOW- I figured Ubuntu was proving to be just as unstable as Edgy eft, so I might as well use Edgy.
I have had my share of problems, as others have but most of my solutions came from researching the issue.
Knot 3 was a *joke*.

I am too damn old and sick for foolishness. I came here to get windows off my machine and a alternate operating system in its place. I have done that with only moderate support from this forum, the rest, like anything else I've done I figured out myself.

Men have such frail ego's, don't stoop to their level and deny who you are- stand up for yourself, take what you need and leave the BS behind.
You have a choice, and I have always put to "thine own self be true" before most things.

----------


## Ben Sprinkle

I think it's good.
I love women.

----------


## elpuerco

I apologise if some of my post goes off topic, and also there is no intention on my part to offend anyone, I am just stating my own personal view.

My perspective in the UK it always seems to be the case that if there is a 'man only' area/group or whatever eventually some feminist will take them to court to force female entry.  It does not go the other way!

I hold the door open for all male or female and love women like most red blooded males  :Wink:  

I know it is definitely a mans world and women usually have to work harder to acheive the same as a man gets for half the effort.

Alas....."not begging to get flamed here!"...but, the fact is it is a mans world, always has been and probably always will be.  It does not matter how much woman or some men protest at that statement it is a fact.

I also strongly beleive that there are areas that should be strictly off limits to women examples are:

The fire service.  Women may be capable but are not as strong as men and I am sure there are many times in fire emergencies that male strength rules supreme. 

The armed forces. I am sorry but we live in a world where to put it bluntly we all know the evil that women suffer in conflict at the hands of the enemy.  Why in Gods name would a country place women troops in such a dangerous situation where everyone knows what will happen to them if caught.

It does make me wonder however that if every country on the planet was ruled by female parliments the world would almost certainly be a better place.

What is that saying?  "Men make war, women make love?"

----------


## aysiu

If you believe men are _generally_ physically stronger than women, why not just make the basis for fire and military service physical strength instead of gender?

That makes no sense.

So a weak man would be eligible to apply for the fire service (and likely get rejected), but a strong woman would be rejected flat out?

As a physically weak man myself, I take offense to that whole line of thinking. I'm often put in awkward situations where people have that mentality of "Oh, we have some heavy stuff that needs to be moved around. Are there any men here?" Why don't people just say, "We have some heavy stuff that needs to be moved... any strong people here?" If the strong people happen to be mostly men, so be it. But if there's a strong woman or a weak man, don't suppose the former can't help or that the latter can.

----------


## elpuerco

As I stated in my post, no offence intended, but that is my view.

OK point taken regarding the fire service, yes it could be that there are cases where a woman could be stronger than a man, fair comment.

But taking into consideration the physical design differences that the male of the species is "usually" stronger than the female my comment is also a fair one.

But my view on the military still stands!  Are you telling me that in a war zone a female captive will be treated in the same manner as a male?  I don't think so.

Rightly or wrongly that is my personal view on the question of "it is a man's world"

A just one point to add....if we really do as some feel, live in an equal society, or want to feel that we do answer me this.....

Is it still not the case in almost all if not in fact all cases that the saying "women and children first" applies?

Why not children first, then first come first served?

Mmmmm I think I am opening a can of worms here?

Let me make myself clear as one has to in this pollically correct gone mad world.....

It is not my intention to offend anyone of any specific gender, race or creed, if I have then I apologise unreservedly.

However I am as is my right stating my views.

If the moderators or others for that matter feel my post has drifted off topic than please say so and I will call it a day.

I cannot say fairer than that surely?

----------


## Ben Sprinkle

Alright alright let's end it mouse boy and cat man. Everyone is equal.  :Smile:

----------


## ProjectGod

why do we need women?
cause theyre gorgeous and i'd be desolate and wretched without them  :Biggrin: 

sorry i just can't help myself.

----------


## elpuerco

hohohohohohohohho

here here  :Very Happy:

----------


## egon spengler

> But my view on the military still stands!  Are you telling me that in a war zone a female captive will be treated in the same manner as a male?  I don't think so.


As a guy you would still be prone to torture (see Guantanamo bay or Uzbekistan). I really doubt that if for whatever reason you got the Abner Louima treatment and had a sink plunger forcibly inserted into your anus you'd breath a sigh of relief afterwards and think "Lucky I wasn't female, it would've been much worse"




> A just one point to add....if we really do as some feel, live in an equal society, or want to feel that we do answer me this.....
> 
> Is it still not the case in almost all if not in fact all cases that the saying "women and children first" applies?
> 
> Why not children first, then first come first served?


"Women and children first" really only applies to emergency situations, in what instances of everyday life do you hear it applied? It's interesting though that you take the somewhat patronising attitude of women being as weak as children and in need of more protection then the average guy as somehow being a blight on your freedoms or something. "Goddamn these women, their feeble asses will get saved first"

On top of that you repeatedly ackowledge that it is indeed a man's world yet for unknown reasons you begrudge females every little slight advantage they do have.


Oh, and for all the people replying along the lines of "I'm not sexist, I love women the gorgeous little creatures" do you honestly lack the marginal intelligence it takes to see the sexism in that or am I just missing truck loads of irony? It's not even that I especially care about the sexism, it's just stupidity is somehwat galling (unless of course you're all just cleverly ironic and I'm the stupid one)

----------


## kopilo

> why do we need women?
> cause theyre gorgeous and i'd be desolate and wretched without them


I second this notion.  :Mr. Green:

----------


## DoctorMO

Logical Mode: Women grouping produces false results when used to get generalised and statisticaly significant data. The most efficent data assignment is a gender property instead of a grouping (although I think it's a group of properties really). I am not a man I am a human who is a male. same for every other human grouping; it falls down to wanting to know something about people you don't know yet by suggesting they will fall into a generalised datum.

It's it better to just think of people as people and then find out what their like?

----------


## Lin-X

Maybe women don't like the idea that during conventional warfare men have the weapons and women are left completely unarmed and untrained. You know how women are treated in times of war? Well, sweety, so do we.

----------


## Old Pink

If there is a Ubuntu Women forum, surely there should be a Ubuntu Men forum? Who exactly is this sexist towards? Are we saying men don't deserve their own forum, or are we saying women don't deserve to be included in the regular discussion? 

I personally think this _is_ slightly sexist, and should a women want to try Ubuntu she should do exactly the same as a male and download the regular edition, and talk about it in the regular forum, why should she be any less capable of this?

----------


## aysiu

Matt H, you have no idea what you're talking about. Ubuntu Women is not a separate ISO.

Please read the sticky--that's what it's there for.

----------


## DoctorMO

Yea Matt. H is wrong this isn't a version of ubuntu but a place we can make Women welcome in the Ubuntu comunity.

----------


## Old Pink

So, I was wrong? I made some edits, am no longer wrong and feel the same way about a different subject. Move on.

----------


## kairu0

This whole thread is absurd and I'm not even going to patronize it by adding yet another reply.

Oops.

----------


## emarkay

Totally for fun: Wimmin? They's cute 'nd cuddily and lotsa fun!  

Semi seriously:  Without them, none of us'd be here!

Seriously:  Wouldn't it be nice if gender suddenly became a non issue - everywhere?

Unfortunately it is near impossible to elminate the biological instincts that affect us, and there is some research that shows that there ARE physiological gender differences that may preclude a complete elimination of the stereotypes.(read "The Female Brain" - http://louannbrizendine.com/ )

But for now, I try to be as unbiased as I can in life and online.

----------


## Buzzygirl

> I personally think this _is_ slightly sexist, and should a women want to try Ubuntu she should do exactly the same as a male and download the regular edition, and talk about it in the regular forum, why should she be any less capable of this?


I never really thought about participating in any other way. I don't give a second's worth of thought as to the gender of the readers/posters... I care more about what you know than what type of plumbing you've got.  :Smile:

----------


## PrinceArithon

What about what operating system??   :Mr. Green:  

Aaron

----------


## elpuerco

> As a guy you would still be prone to torture (see Guantanamo bay or Uzbekistan). I really doubt that if for whatever reason you got the Abner Louima treatment and had a sink plunger forcibly inserted into your anus you'd breath a sigh of relief afterwards and think "Lucky I wasn't female, it would've been much worse"


Don't know who Abner Louima is, don't care about GBay either, but please, women fair far worse than men in any conflict civilian or otherwise.

Der....I am not saying women are weaker than men, actually I am saying I don't think they should be sent into a war zone, but hey you know best  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  




> "Women and children first" really only applies to emergency situations, in what instances of everyday life do you hear it applied?


emergency situations of course!




> It's interesting though that you take the somewhat patronising attitude of women being as weak as children and in need of more protection then the average guy as somehow being a blight on your freedoms or something. "Goddamn these women, their feeble asses will get saved first"


 :Confused:  where did I say women were as weak as children? 
 :Confused:  where did I say they were a blight on my freedom? 
 :Confused:  You last qoute is your own, I never said that? 




> On top of that you repeatedly ackowledge that it is indeed a man's world yet for unknown reasons you begrudge females every little slight advantage they do have.


You miss the point entirely




> Oh, and for all the people replying along the lines of "I'm not sexist, I love women the gorgeous little creatures" do you honestly lack the marginal intelligence it takes to see the sexism in that or am I just missing truck loads of irony? It's not even that I especially care about the sexism, it's just stupidity is somehwat galling (unless of course you're all just cleverly ironic and I'm the stupid one)


 :Brick wall:  

Last and not least, lighten up for God's sake!  :Wink:

----------


## elpuerco

> If there is a Ubuntu Women forum, surely there should be a Ubuntu Men forum? Who exactly is this sexist towards? Are we saying men don't deserve their own forum, or are we saying women don't deserve to be included in the regular discussion? 
> 
> I personally think this _is_ slightly sexist, and should a women want to try Ubuntu she should do exactly the same as a male and download the regular edition, and talk about it in the regular forum, why should she be any less capable of this?


Excellent post!  I agee 100%  :Wink:

----------


## elpuerco

> This whole thread is absurd and I'm not even going to patronize it by adding yet another reply.
> 
> Oops.


Holy crap!

I just fell off my seat laughing at you post.  Golly I needed that laugh thanks :Very Happy:

----------


## DoctorMO

> This whole thread is absurd and I'm not even going to patronize it by adding yet another reply.
> 
> Oops.


I agree and will be following his lead!

Damn,

----------


## Ben Sprinkle

42 is not an anwser, it's an error code. the universe is saying 'Error 42: meaning to universe not found' 

That's from that one movie!
I forget whats called. But it said 42 is the meaning of life!
Whew!

----------


## DoctorMO

No the film was the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy by Douglas Adams (or a rewrite there of) which started life as a BBC radio show. then DNA made a Book (well 5 books: The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy, The Restraunt at the End of the Universe, Life the Universe and Everything, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish and the worst book ever to come out of Megadodo Publications of of Ursa Minor Beta, Mostly Harmless)

I'm a big fan of the books and the radio series even the tv show was passable but the film... hmmm, even though I was at the world premier in London and got to meet some of the cast... it just doesn't have the same feel and the american interjections and the romatic plot fail the majestic single finger up at the universe the original was all about.

But enough of that: how many women read H2G2?

----------


## egon spengler

> Excellent post!  I agee 100%


Small wonder being similarly dense

----------


## tubasoldier

> IWhy don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)


You Go Boy! We need this so we can read about how Ubuntu has penetrated your life!

----------


## kateshine

Wow. Can I just say - wow.
I just read (well, scanned near the end) through this thread in one sitting, and can I say - wow.

1. The fact that people have such strong feelings - that this thread exists at all - is proof that a discussion, of SOME sort, is absolutely necessary. If it means a separate forum is necessary, so be it.

2. This whole conversation is idiotic. 

3. I realize that 1. and 2. contradict each other.

4. This is about more than sex/gender relations.

5. It is about affirmative action. Groups who have historically been marginalized by mainstream culture are now being supported in ways that the majority deem unfair. Whether it is unfair, or whether it is the ONLY thing that is fair, is something I will not address.

6. I am a woman

7. I make no claims to be a tech goddess, Ubuntu or otherwise

8. I feel very nervous making this post. I am afraid I will be looked down upon. Whether that is my own low self-esteem is a matter not to be addressed here.

9. I am not a stereotype.

10. I do not speak for anyone other than myself

11.  Congratulations. For the time being, you have successfully scared me away from the forums. (But you have not scared me away from my newly discovered, yet already beloved Ubuntu)  

12. That is all.

Kate

----------


## migla

Seeing as women as a group are structurally discriminated against (as can be found out by statistics on wages or statistics on for example discovered and treated medical conditions and a plethora of other issues) everywhere in the world and have been for all time, I'm in favor of having a forum for highlighting women in particular, just like there often are womens groups within political parties and other sorts of groupings.

I would like it if we all could just be humans to each others, but the general norm everywhere is still the man, so womens point of view (wherever it may differ from a mans experience) needs to be considered.

----------


## Lin-X

I agree with Old Pink that we don't need a women's forum, but that is really beside the point because this is not a women's forum, it's a place where men come to attack women. First we had whining because the women had a seperate group, then complaining about women wanting to be included "eveywhere." Some how it seems that behind all this boiling tostesterone is the fervent idea that women should not exist anywhere. Don't fool yourself, this is a men's forum. Man is the One, woman is the Other.

----------


## Sef

> I agree with Old Pink that we don't need a women's forum, but that is really beside the point because this is not a women's forum, it's a place where *men come to attack women*. First *we had whining* because the women had a seperate group, *then complaining* about women wanting to be included "eveywhere." Some how it seems that behind all this boiling tostesterone is the fervent idea that women should not exist anywhere. Don't fool yourself, this is a men's forum. Man is the One, *woman is the Other*.


(Bold is mine.)

Not all men have attacked, whined, complained, and think of woman as the other.  Some men have and I will agree with that.  But to say all men have is to cut yourself off.  (Just like the men who think of women like what you stated in your post.)

----------


## Ben Sprinkle

> No the film was the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy by Douglas Adams (or a rewrite there of) which started life as a BBC radio show. then DNA made a Book (well 5 books: The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy, The Restraunt at the End of the Universe, Life the Universe and Everything, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish and the worst book ever to come out of Megadodo Publications of of Ursa Minor Beta, Mostly Harmless)
> 
> I'm a big fan of the books and the radio series even the tv show was passable but the film... hmmm, even though I was at the world premier in London and got to meet some of the cast... it just doesn't have the same feel and the american interjections and the romatic plot fail the majestic single finger up at the universe the original was all about.
> 
> But enough of that: how many women read H2G2?


That's right, I saw that movie awhile back. Never read the books, but books are generally better then the movies.  :Smile:

----------


## elpuerco

> Small wonder being similarly dense


You are very observant indeed as it is true that my density is such that it would be nigh impossible to forcibly insert said plunger into my anus!

You however I feel would have no such trouble, as I am sure the plunger + handle + the inserters arm would fit comfortably up yours  :Wink:

----------


## matthew

Alright, I'm officially offended by some of the most recent posts. This thread is done. Please read post #156 if you need help understanding why.

Women, you are welcome in Ubuntu and in these forums. We need you because without your presence society degrades rapidly and because without your unique perspectives we are incomplete.

Pay no attention to the chauvinistic remarks some of the guys made. I'll go give them noogies and tell them their rudeness is not welcome.

----------


## Zlatan

why do u need this forum? are women too good for general forums? or too dumb? i do not understand, please argue. e.g. guys do not demand for something like this and they are ok.
what's wrong with you?

----------


## bapoumba

Hello  :Smile: 

This thread is sticky and pretty much explains it all:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34679

There are very few women in the overall Linux community, and they often face specific rude or sexists comments, even if it is largely improving thanks to active groups like debian-women, LinuxChix or ubuntu-women (and other distribution-women groups). Everybody is welcome in this forum, regardless of gender. There is nothing wrong  :Wink:

----------


## PriceChild

Ahem



> are women too good for general forums? or too dumb? i do not understand,





> There are very few women in the overall Linux community, and they often face specific rude or sexists comments,

----------


## Zlatan

I just had a specific comment upon me- please create my own forum?;]
if seriously- i suppose moderators should work better in general forums in order to feel EVERYONE ok there. and there will be no need for such separated forums.
more about comments- they are everywhere and for everyone. people are social beings and they can not avoide them.
anyway... whatever...

----------


## gamerchick02

> why do u need this forum? are women too good for general forums? or too dumb? i do not understand, please argue. e.g. guys do not demand for something like this and they are ok.
> what's wrong with you?


The correct philosophic answer would be "Why not?"

And I say, "why not?".  It doesn't hurt anything.  I like having a group of women I can turn to with problems.  Not to say that the men aren't helpful (they are!) but sometimes women can describe things differently.

Anyway, I was involved in some women's groups in college (engineering major) and I found it to help me greatly.  It keeps things in perspective.  It also lets women know that there are other women who are interested in linux/computers/engineering/whatever.

My $0.02.

Amy

----------


## Henry Rayker

One major advantage is the fact that, if women come to the forums, one first question they'll have is, "Am I the only girl in here??" If she sees a group devoted to her gender, she will feel more welcome and comfortable.

The thing is, males expect this community (and most computing communities) to be filled with males; we don't need that kind of comfort. If a guy were considering taking a traditionally female hobby, he would probably seek other males with the same interests.

----------


## Zlatan

personally i do not have a problem with girls in linux, my wife uses ubuntu as well. i wonder why girls tend to have problems with it, e.g., asking about other girls in forum, etc.

----------


## PriceChild

> i wonder why girls tend to have problems with it, e.g., asking about other girls in forum, etc.


Zlaten please stop.

----------


## Henry Rayker

Girls don't have any more problems with using Ubuntu than males do. Both genders ask questions. The forums aren't, however, just a place to ask questions; they're a place to fit in, answer questions and just, generally, fit in and establish a community. You could ask the same thing about the LOCO groups...why do people from Ohio need to have their own forum? These groups are establishing a community composed of members who share some traits (location, minority gender, etc)

----------


## johnc4510

This sub-forum is no differnt than having a separate LoCo Team. I say more power to you. I also have seen PriceChild and bapoumba on the main forum a lot and always pay close attention to what they have to say.

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## r4ik

Place in correct perspective please.

Respect or love for another gender/race or faith has nothing to do with understanding it.

----------


## TheWizzard

> why do u need this forum?


"why the hell not?" 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinky_Friedman#Politics)

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## Zlatan

> "why the hell not?" 
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinky_Friedman#Politics)


so maybe i need my personal forum? please create one :Smile:

----------


## aysiu

This has been discussed _ad nauseum_. I've merged you with all the discussion that's taken place before. If you believe you have something original to add, by all means, keep discussing this topic.

----------


## Zlatan

> This has been discussed _ad nauseum_. I've merged you with all the discussion that's taken place before. If you believe you have something original to add, by all means, keep discussing this topic.


thank you, aysiu. that was an interesting thread :Smile:  

i still wonder  someone says it is not sexism to maintain such forum, when there's SEX in it's name. i understand that there could be a good will but i am sure this is not the way to avoid sexism to create separate forum. this is my opinion.

----------


## darklyndsea

I personally am glad that this forum is here, because I don't know any women in real life who use Linux, and it's good to know I'm not alone.

----------


## bapoumba

> I personally am glad that this forum is here, because I don't know any women in real life who use Linux, and it's good to know I'm not alone.


Welcome, darklyndsea. You can find uselful links here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=305147

----------


## kopilo

> One major advantage is the fact that, if women come to the forums, one first question they'll have is, "Am I the only girl in here??" If she sees a group devoted to her gender, she will feel more welcome and comfortable.
> 
> The thing is, males expect this community (and most computing communities) to be filled with males; we don't need that kind of comfort. If a guy were considering taking a traditionally female hobby, he would probably seek other males with the same interests.


Just thinking that because there is a forum dedicated to one gender it could also be highlighting how much of a minority women in linux (and IT in general) are.

I guess females are an accepted minority so it doesn't make that much of a differance.

----------


## HasratUSA

is that girls-only? come on invite me and i'll solve all your linux-related problems from a-z lol seriously  :LOL:

----------


## bapoumba

@ HasratUSA: moved your post to this more appropriate thread. You should read it.

----------


## cprofitt

Where is the Ubuntu Men board?

----------


## ComplexNumber

why would you want a Ubuntu Men's Forum?

----------


## cprofitt

For the same reason there is a women's board.

----------


## ComplexNumber

> For the same reason there is a women's board.


and what do you think that reason is?

----------


## cprofitt

The community would be for Ubuntu men, a group designed to make men more comfortable with Linux and the Ubuntu Community. It would NOT be meant to separate men from the rest of the community.

In the spirit of equality it is my firm belief that if women have a special area that men should be afforded that same opportunity. To be honest I was offended to see the Ubuntu Women area when one of the issues raised was to avoid sexism... the creation of a special area is in itself sexist. Then again I am very sensitive to issues of inequity; being male in the United States will do that once you turn eighteen.

Personally I think one of the reasons society still has sexism and racism is the fact that the very groups that "claim" discrimination will segregate themselves in to groups.

----------


## MetalMusicAddict

Not that its _that_ big a deal but I do see where someone could feel like its divisive.

Why not a forum for just black or white folks? If we can have a forum for specific sexes, why not race?

In the end I really dont care, just playing devils advocate.

----------


## yabbadabbadont

> just playing devils advocate.


Hmmm...  perhaps we need a forum for Devil's Advocates too.   :Wink:

----------


## cprofitt

> Hmmm...  perhaps we need a forum for Devil's Advocates too.


LOL

At least you made me laugh.

I truly think communities should stay together and not segregate themselves. I used to dream that racism and sexism would end, but I no longer believe I will live to see it. Part of the reason is that special interest groups serve their special little groups and do nothing to address issues in general. The object should be to level the scales, not tilt them a different way.

----------


## adam.tropics

> ...I used to dream that racism and sexism would end, but I no longer believe I will live to see it....


That's actually quite sad.

----------


## cprofitt

> That's actually quite sad.


I agree... but with the passing of youth so too the passing of over-abundant hope.

----------


## adam.tropics

...then I suggest you spend plenty more time here. It may help to restore some of your faith in your peers!

----------


## Motoxrdude

Eh, look at this forum. at least 95% are males. It's already a "mans" forum.

----------


## cprofitt

Adam:

I have faith in the people that are here and most of the people I live near, but for some reason society as a whole does not inspire such faith. My goal now is to pass along those dreams and hopes to my children so that maybe in their lives things can change.

Motox:

Its an Ubuntu users board... not a man's board nor a women's board.

----------


## Motoxrdude

> Adam:
> 
> I have faith in the people that are here and most of the people I live near, but for some reason society as a whole does not inspire such faith. My goal now is to pass along those dreams and hopes to my children so that maybe in their lives things can change.
> 
> Motox:
> 
> Its an Ubuntu users board... not a man's board nor a women's board.


Yes, but it mostly consists of males, so it pretty much is a "mans" forum anyway. Not to exclude anyone or anything like that.

----------


## aysiu

My thoughts on the issue.

Apparently, if your left foot got run over by a car, you would insist the ER operate on your entire body and not just your left foot... so as not to discriminate against other parts of your body that may feel neglected. If that's what equality means to you, then you must have an interesting life.

----------


## bapoumba

@ PrivateVoid: please read the thread aysiu's pointed at you. I was even thinking about merging your's in there... It's been discussed so many times.

When women will be fully integrated in Linux communities, when they will not face specific useless comments anymore, when most of them will not see the need of (distribution)-women groups (ubuntu-women, debian-women, fedora-women...) or LinuxChix to be able to discuss freely and deal with all of this, then these areas, mailing lists, web sites will disappear.
In the mean time, they do exist. If you are questioning the need of such places, requesting a men's area is not the best way to do it  :Wink:

----------


## cprofitt

> @ PrivateVoid: please read the thread aysiu's pointed at you. I was even thinking about merging your's in there... It's been discussed so many times.
> 
> When women will be fully integrated in Linux communities, when they will not face specific useless comments anymore, when most of them will not see the need of (distribution)-women groups (ubuntu-women, debian-women, fedora-women...) or LinuxChix to be able to discuss freely and deal with all of this, then these areas, mailing lists, web sites will disappear.
> In the mean time, they do exist. If you are questioning the need of such places, requesting a men's area is not the best way to do it


I will read it, but to be fair if a women area is created so too should a men area be created - equality should be equal. Trying to correct an issue by creating a different issue is not a solution. creating an area for women without creating an area for men is sexist... just like what happened in the real world with the forced removal of male only colleges despite the fact that sexist female colleges still exist. Wellesly, Mount Holyoke, etc -- I give lots of credit to Vassar for realizing the duplicity of the seven sister colleges and becoming coed.

I find it odd that people engaged in an on-line forum would run around proclaiming themselve female when they feel they are feel they need a special area to feel comfortable. On-line forums do not require you to tell us your religion, sex, skin color, nationality or any other information about yourself.

The fact is that by making a set of women centric forums you have actually halted the integration of women in Linux communities.

I do not mean to appear rude, but I have strong convictions about racism and sexism particularly in regards to groups that operate in the shadow of "we are the opressed minority" while all the time they seek nothing more than to achieve unequal benefits above others in the name of righting some past wrong.

----------


## cprofitt

> Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school.   I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field.  The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.
> 
> No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.


And all of those actions are forms of gender descrimination because they seek to advance one sex over the other. I see a need to ensure that girls and boys are exposed to math and science equally -- I see the need to give girls role models that are involved in math and science (TV Shows like BONES are great), but to actively seek to employ or allow entrance to a school based on sex is by definition sexist.

----------


## cprofitt

> I personally am glad that this forum is here, because I don't know any women in real life who use Linux, and it's good to know I'm not alone.


You are not alone -- you are a human being and there are lots of human beings using Linux.

----------


## TravisNewman

I think you're missing the point of the section. When I started the forum section with Kassetra, it was because we both knew many women who used  Ubuntu and didn't feel comfortable posting because of the male dominance and how men joked around about them. The IT sector is dominated by men, and women have a really hard time getting anywhere with the snobbish guys. Therefore-- this section was created as a "buffer" zone so to speak, to get women accustomed to the community so they _could_ totally integrate, like what you're talking about.

----------


## bapoumba

> I will read it, but to be fair if a women area is created so too should a men area be created - equality should be equal.


You probably have noticed that the ubuntu-women sub-forum is in the 3rd Party Projects area. Please browse through these projects.

ubuntu-woman has an ubuntu mailing list, a wiki and a web site, an irc channel, mentoring programs, irc classes etc.
Basically, it's a project to encourage women participating in Ubuntu community and feel welcome. Last survey showed around 2.5% women in Ubuntu community. Make it 50%, then we will talk about equality.

----------


## Henry Rayker

> You are not alone -- you are a human being and there are lots of human beings using Linux.


No offense, but I think that bears absolutely no consolation. Obviously there are lots of human beings using linux...the giraffes haven't figured out a way to get the disks in the drives....long necks, you know. Psychologically, people tend to feel included when there are other people who share something in common. The biggest and easiest for us to associate is gender.

As far as "taking action to increase enrollment" goes, in many fields (such as the Computer Science field, for example) women aren't hired simply BECAUSE they are female. "Increasing enrollment" could, quite easily and, in many cases does mean to stop the discrimination that's already in place; another obvious choice is to attempt to equally prepare both genders for such jobs/school/etc. The med school example was, more likely than not, just a situation where an incredibly disproportionate number of females who were eligible to apply for med school weren't, so they attempted to increase based on that...the only attempt at "advancing one gender over the other" is in terms of the current state of things where women are getting screwed over.

----------


## ComplexNumber

> Make it 50%, then we will talk about equality.


but thats never going to happen, even with all the encouragement and incentives in the world  :Wink: . there are interests/activities that males generally find appealing and there are interests/activities that women generally find appealing, and operating systems or programming will never be one of those interests/activities that women will ever generally find as appealing as blokes do. not until women become men, anyway.

----------


## megamania

> In the spirit of equality it is my firm belief that if women have a special area that men should be afforded that same opportunity.


"the spirit of equality" should not lead to do the same things for different beings.

Ubuntu Women has a logic in this mostly-male linux-world. There would be a need for Ubuntu Men if the situation was the other way round.

"Equal rights" doesn't mean "same things for all", because different people/species have different needs.

In my opinion, one of the big mistakes of feminism was/is the will to do the _same_ things as men. It would be much better to fight for the respect of differences (which is the beauty of life) rather than to fight to have the right to behave like something you are not.

----------


## Lucifiel

As a female, I can say it's really difficult trying to learn computers on your own. Nevermind sexism, the different cultural attitudes governing the roles of "males" and "females" as well as "men" and "women" can be a real downer. 

Heh... the reason why many females choose to pretend to be a male is because many still somehow regard females as an alien species when it comes to computers. Not to mention the learning approach, etc. ,etc. 

The reason why I said "cultural attitudes" is because more than once, many have tried to apply their various cultural ideologies to me. That is: "What a woman/female/girl should behave like" and so on and not to mention, the stereotypical American white male who tries to pick a bone with me(Sorry for the stereotype but I've met so many of them, it's become a common thing for me). They were lucky, I wasn't as aggressive or as vocal as I am now.  :Smile:

----------


## bapoumba

Hello CN  :Smile: 

Well, this is a very wide question here. Why would women not be interested in IT, or in Sciences in general? Probably because of stereotypes in education, girls are driven to some areas, boys to others. Neither ones are fully raised according to their individual skills or prefered subjects.

Ubuntu is also desktop oriented, it's a distribution aiming at end users, not only at kernel hackers. So why half of these end users are not women?

----------


## frodon

@PrivateVoid , i think that on a general note it's better to talk about equity rather than equality because equality don't always imply equity  :Wink:

----------


## ComplexNumber

> Hello CN 
> 
> Well, this is a very wide question here. Why would women not be interested in IT, or in Sciences in general? Probably because of stereotypes in education, girls are driven to some areas, boys to others. Neither ones are fully raised according to their individual skills or prefered subjects.
> 
> Ubuntu is also desktop oriented, it's a distribution aiming at end users, not only at kernel hackers. So why half of these end users are not women?


because mens and womens brains are very different.  of course, we all would like to see equality for both men and women where there can be,  but men aren't women and women aren't men.
testosterone, on its own, _tends_ to make males naturally more interested in gadgety things than females. 
thats why, even in a perfect world, there will always always always be inequality.

i'm not saying that no women are interested in IT, science, and gadgety things. far from it.  but_ in general_, they will always be less interested in it than men are.

----------


## TravisNewman

yes, but I think bapoumba is saying that everyone uses computers (almost) whether they're men or women, and Linux can be a viable alternative for windows for both men and women, so women shouldn't be discounted because they aren't "typically" interested in technology.

Just look at the "Did I turn my sister into a computer geek?" thread in the cafe.

----------


## ComplexNumber

> yes, but I think bapoumba is saying that everyone uses computers (almost) whether they're men or women, and Linux can be a viable alternative for windows for both men and women, so women shouldn't be discounted because they aren't "typically" interested in technology.
> 
> Just look at the "Did I turn my sister into a computer geek?" thread in the cafe.


oh, ok. so what you're saying is that, given that there may well be a (say) 60:40% ratio for men and women, respectively, using computers in general, why isn't this ratio being reflected in ubuntu?

----------


## TravisNewman

Yes, that's part of it at least. At least that was one of the goals when kass and I started it... since then I haven't been as involved so I'm not sure this is a current goal. I think it should be though.

I do agree with you to the point that men may be biologically more likely to want to try linux, but it's also got a lot to do with the nature vs. nurture debate. We may never really know. But I think women have been taught that it's not "ladylike" to be interested in technology, and that could be the problem we should solve. 

Anyway, we moderators are highjacking the thread  :Smile:

----------


## ComplexNumber

<hijack>
that seems fair enough as far as i can see  :Smile: .

nurture does play _some_ part.
</hijack>

----------


## aysiu

> @ PrivateVoid: please read the thread aysiu's pointed at you. I was even thinking about merging your's in there... It's been discussed so many times.


 I've gone ahead and merged it in.

----------


## cprofitt

> I think this section of the forums is not inteded to be a safe environment for women or a place where women adress pre-concived representations of what is being a woman. It's more of a place for discussing-promoting-devise projects, ideas and concerns in Ubuntu but with a prespective of women that continue to be in lesser number in the IT world. Realising that there is huge population of men developing software and that not always they take a perspective diferent from them. It's not that Ubuntu Women is addressing GUI stuff like more pink and more flowers or watch your language! Just read a bit what the women in ubuntu women are talking about. 
> 
> And I do not really see the need for every other spawn of ubuntu forums, we could go to a infinite number of option here and it's not about that I think. Ubuntu Women is not intended to be a kind of segregated place [«oh yeah, that is the girls club over there«] 
> 
> Women are half of humanity, and in that group there are gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world contained.
> 
> This not to say that ubuntuforums main sections are male only areas [ with gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world]


I personally agree that there is no need for special interest group forums too -- that includes special forums for women who are actually the majority in the world. There is no need to segregate women to a special forum they can hold their own in the "main" forums just as well I suspect.

----------


## cprofitt

> I think you're missing the point of the section. When I started the forum section with Kassetra, it was because we both knew many women who used  Ubuntu and didn't feel comfortable posting because of the male dominance and how men joked around about them. The IT sector is dominated by men, and women have a really hard time getting anywhere with the snobbish guys. Therefore-- this section was created as a "buffer" zone so to speak, to get women accustomed to the community so they _could_ totally integrate, like what you're talking about.


Perhaps what was needed is a special forum in which the "snobbish guys" could act snobbish and then the main forums could be cleaned of that attitude.

----------


## cprofitt

> You probably have noticed that the ubuntu-women sub-forum is in the 3rd Party Projects area. Please browse through these projects.
> 
> ubuntu-woman has an ubuntu mailing list, a wiki and a web site, an irc channel, mentoring programs, irc classes etc.
> Basically, it's a project to encourage women participating in Ubuntu community and feel welcome. Last survey showed around 2.5% women in Ubuntu community. Make it 50%, then we will talk about equality.


%'s have nothing to do with equality. Opportunity beign equal is what is important. I still can not see any reason to segregate women off in to their own community.

If you were asking the population to be sensitive to women using Ubuntu/Linux and did not ask for special areas I would be all for that.

To me this issue is just like women complaining about the "Glass Ceiling" but at the same time not forcing the issue that they should have to register for the draft (United States).

I admit that I have no idea what it is like to be a women, but no women knows what it is like to be a man either.

----------


## cprofitt

> No offense, but I think that bears absolutely no consolation. Obviously there are lots of human beings using linux...the giraffes haven't figured out a way to get the disks in the drives....long necks, you know. Psychologically, people tend to feel included when there are other people who share something in common. The biggest and easiest for us to associate is gender.
> 
> As far as "taking action to increase enrollment" goes, in many fields (such as the Computer Science field, for example) women aren't hired simply BECAUSE they are female. "Increasing enrollment" could, quite easily and, in many cases does mean to stop the discrimination that's already in place; another obvious choice is to attempt to equally prepare both genders for such jobs/school/etc. The med school example was, more likely than not, just a situation where an incredibly disproportionate number of females who were eligible to apply for med school weren't, so they attempted to increase based on that...the only attempt at "advancing one gender over the other" is in terms of the current state of things where women are getting screwed over.


1)  "The biggest and easiest for us to associate is gender" -- I really don't believe that. There are simply too many holes there. No one knows what gender a person is on the web; so why would it matter unless you seek to make it an issue? I would think grouping by language or culture more important than Gender. I do not think you would find chinese women chosing to hang out with spanish women over grouping with chinese men -- the language barrier alone would be an issue. My other point here is that racism, nationalism, and sexism can only cease once people no longer see that at the "best" way to group people. Just because current "norms" in society make it ok to have female only colleges but not male only colleges doesn't make the practice correct. Would you be offended if there were all male colleges, or if golf clubs restricted membership to men only? I would not be! If there can be male institutions then there can be female only institutions - I would imagine in some areas that is needed, but in general areas I think it is just an accepted form of sexism.

2) Actively increasing enrollement bases on gender is sexist - if you wish to support sexist policies that is your choice. You claim that there are cases in which women are not hired simply because they are women, but then you support an active policy of hiring women ONLY because they are women. Both are equally unacceptable to me. People should be hired because they ARE the MOST qualified.

----------


## cprofitt

> "the spirit of equality" should not lead to do the same things for different beings.
> 
> Ubuntu Women has a logic in this mostly-male linux-world. There would be a need for Ubuntu Men if the situation was the other way round.
> 
> "Equal rights" doesn't mean "same things for all", because different people/species have different needs.
> 
> In my opinion, one of the big mistakes of feminism was/is the will to do the _same_ things as men. It would be much better to fight for the respect of differences (which is the beauty of life) rather than to fight to have the right to behave like something you are not.


There is still no need for Ubuntu Women as an area -- some select moderators; yes. Some instructions for "rude" males to be respectful; yes.

----------


## cprofitt

> As a female, I can say it's really difficult trying to learn computers on your own. Nevermind sexism, the different cultural attitudes governing the roles of "males" and "females" as well as "men" and "women" can be a real downer. 
> 
> Heh... the reason why many females choose to pretend to be a male is because many still somehow regard females as an alien species when it comes to computers. Not to mention the learning approach, etc. ,etc. 
> 
> The reason why I said "cultural attitudes" is because more than once, many have tried to apply their various cultural ideologies to me. That is: "What a woman/female/girl should behave like" and so on and not to mention, the stereotypical American white male who tries to pick a bone with me(Sorry for the stereotype but I've met so many of them, it's become a common thing for me). They were lucky, I wasn't as aggressive or as vocal as I am now.


I agree with you on the cultural attitudes... As a society we have to afford people the right to puruse what interests they wish as long as they don't harm other people or our environment. Boys who want to be nurses should not be mocked. Men who want to be home with their families should not be ridiculed or have promotions held back from them. Women who want to be physicists should not be mocked. Women who want to climb the company ladder and never see their families should not be ridiculed.

There are "issues" in every field that affect both genders and often in different and opposite directions. At times these differences in gender expectations actually cause further problems for the opposite gender. If it was more acceptable for men to be "Mr. Mom" in society then more women would have the oportunity to be the "Career Women" while the children still got the attention they deserve. I am in the job I am in because I want to spend time with my children and I get paid less than several females I know... and am often told if I want more money I should put more time in to show effort -- yet those women are not expected to do that -- because they have kids. I have kids too... and usually am the person who cooks dinner so why am I expected to put in probono hours for my workplace to earn a promotion or increase in pay?

----------


## cprofitt

> @PrivateVoid , i think that on a general note it's better to talk about equity rather than equality because equality don't always imply equity




```
e·qual·i·ty
the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability.
```



```
eq·ui·ty
the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality
```

I acknowledge that people are different and not truly equal. I am weaker than other people mentally, physically and emotionally... at the same time I am stronger than others in those areas. I had not really separated the two thoughts... but yes equity to me is the only way to achieve meaningful equality of opportunity.

----------


## cprofitt

> Yes, that's part of it at least. At least that was one of the goals when kass and I started it... since then I haven't been as involved so I'm not sure this is a current goal. I think it should be though.
> 
> I do agree with you to the point that men may be biologically more likely to want to try linux, but it's also got a lot to do with the nature vs. nurture debate. We may never really know. But I think women have been taught that it's not "ladylike" to be interested in technology, and that could be the problem we should solve. 
> 
> Anyway, we moderators are highjacking the thread


You can hijack it all you want... just because you are mods doesn't strip you of having valuable input.

My daughter has been interested and encouraged to enjoy sports and technology. In the first two or three months of her toddling around she always came over and pointed to the parts of my computer when I was cleaning out the case or swapping parts. She to this day still loves technology -- though more interested in watching clips of boy bands. (she is only six, but takes after Daddy there too... I had my first date in Kindergarten).

My son has shown interest is sports and women's shoes, but not technology. I am fine with both.

My unborn daughter has only shown the desire to kick mommy's tummy alot so far, but I am sure she will be her own unique person when she is born on the 24th of April.

My appologies for going response crazy... I am rather passionate on the topic -- and I truly do not mean to disregard the feelings of others or offend while trying to express my thoughts and feelings.

----------


## daynah

Then there's no need for...

http://www.witi.com/ Women in Technology International
http://www.anitaborg.org/index.php Anita Borg Institute for Women in Technology
http://www.womenintech.com/ Women in Technology (Maui Economic Development Board)

http://www.awm-math.org/ Association for Women in Mathematics
http://www.math.ca/Women/ Canadian Committee for Women in Mathematics

http://www.setwomenresource.org.uk/ UK Resource Centre for Women in SET
http://www.awis.org/careers/edfoundation.html Association for Women in Science

http://www.awc-hq.org/ Association for Women in Computing

http://www.agnesscott.edu/  Agnes Scott College
www.brynmawr.edu Bryn Mawy College
www.cnr.edu The College of New Rochelle
www.douglass.rutgers.edu Douglass College of Rutgers University
...just all of the colleges on this list and more http://www.womenscolleges.org/colleges/bycollege.htm


Go to them and tell them that.

THE SCIENCE BEHIND WOMEN: In fact, why do you go to the American Psychological Association and debate them. Like... even though Science and math aptitude is unrelated to gender, women aren't going into science related fields. Yes, we are [Women and minorities] mak[ing] gains in science and engineering education, but we're still wondering why women choose medicine over engineering.

YES, WE HAVE A UTERUS: It's psychology, my dear boy! The atmosphere that we were raised up in that said we should be paper monkeys, we're good at English, we should be elementary school teachers. We should have jobs that give is the most flexibility for when we get knocked up and then the most time to tend to our home and family, basically, though not in those rude words. Not an astronaut (jeeze what if you get knocked up in space). Not a doctor (hospital comes first, not your baby you must have waiting at home).

WOMEN'S MOLD; "HOUSEWIFE": Granted, I want to be a housewife, I'm not a feminist, but it does sorta peeve me off when people don't realize that this is happening to the women and men (yes, you're being brainwashed to like and not like certain careers too) of our world. Just understand that you've been herded into a certain mold. If you suddenly go "Oh that's why I never fit!" Then yippie! If you do fit, like me, then please help other people who may be stuggling to fit and be giving themselves anxiety because they can't.

MANS' MOLD; "I PROMISE I'M NOT GAY": Not all accountants have to be men, women can be good at math too. And golly gee, if you're a guy who's really nit picky  and you wanna be a personal assistant and follow someone around, do their laundry and schedule their life for them 'cause being a control freak makes you happy, then don't force yourself to be an accountant. Go be a PA and don't worry about the gay jokes, only you and your girlfriend need to worry about what goes on in your pants. 

THE LACK OF NEED: It's social pressure like THAT that is the reason THIS group is here. Now if you don't like it, you don't have to participate. But there is enough social pressure in this world to create a lack of women to create a need for this group in the 3rd Party section. This is an odd forum that is here because of a lack of need, which is a need. We want this  distro for every human, male and female. Not just 3% of women, all women. At least the 28% of women who use windows (yup of all people who use Windows, only 28% are women).

All humans. All languages. All countries. All parts in pants.

(it started getting long so I titled the paragraphs funny ways to keep you reading.)

(oh and I love gays, but the majority of hetero guys, even if they also are a okay with gays, have some odd fear of being perceived as gay. I pick on my boyfriend for it all the time. "You're looking particularly gay this evening." "What?!")

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## cprofitt

I am not trying to say there is no need for women only groups, but if there is a need for a womens only group there should be a need for a male only group of the same kind.

I can understand the need for male only groups about prostate cancer. I can understand the need for all female groups in regards to menopause.

As for all one gender colleges I think the jury is out on the value of that, but recent studies show that both males and females do better in single sex learning environments. In today's world though it is men who suffer inequity in that area.

From what I could find there are ONLY four all male colleges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s..._United_States

while the list you pointed me to shows 55 for all female. In the 70s and 80s all male colleges were assualted by feminist groups and they ended up going coed for the most part, yet those same feminist groups protected the right of all female colleges to exist and promoted them. Why should men be denied that same opportunity? That is inequity. That is wrong. That is sexist.

In general if there is a gender only issue (prostate cancer) then a gender based group makes sense and is equitable even if there is no corresponding counterpart for the other gender. If a gender benefits from having a single sex organization in areas that both genders have a stake in there should be three groups -- female - coed - male -- this allows men and women to have the same choice.

While you give me examples of organizations that does not constitute an actual proof of need -- just like the Klu Klux Klan doesn't prove that we need racist lunatics running around in bedsheets.

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## ComplexNumber

> Like... even though Science and math aptitude is unrelated to gender, women aren't going into science related fields.


except that that is a fringe opinion, dayner  :Smile: . next you'll be quoting some fringe opinion that men and women have the same language ability, which isn't true. of course, if you look hard enough, you will find it. science is all about debate and contrary opinions and evidence.

_  in general_, women/girls do have higher language skills. and _in general,_ men/boys do have higher maths and spatial ability. note the italics
.
thats not to say that the best in the maths field are always found amongst men(marilyn von savant, anyone?) or that the best amongst the literary field are going to be women (dickens and shakespere, anyone?).

i just thought i'd point the above out, even though its not really concerned that much with the main point of the thread.

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## TravisNewman

The point of this section isn't to "Segregate women into their own section." It's to show a female presence so that women will feel comfortable _integrating_ into the community.

I'm going to just come out and say that I don't agree with a lot of what LinuxChix does for example, because a lot of it feels like segregation, but that's not what this section is about.

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## tom56

PrivateVoid: I think you are trying to take the idea of equality to a ridiculous extreme to justify your arguments. By complaining about the drafting of men over women, and about all-female colleges you are setting up a straw man that bears little relevance to this discussion.

The point of the Ubuntu Women forum is that women are under-represented in the Ubuntu community, as well as in the wider context of the open source community. An Ubuntu Women forum allows all of us, male and female, to work out why this is together - and to show to women who look to open source that they will not be alone.

The reason there is no men's forum is that the arguments for the women's forum wouldn't apply. Men are neither under-represented within the community, nor pre-judged or disriminated against on the basis of their gender. Certainly there are examples in the wider world where this does occur, e.g. nannying/childcare, and I am sure that such groups (male childcarer unions) do exist for the same reasons that Ubuntu Women exists.

I'm afraid that some of the thinly-veiled sexism displayed by you and others in this thread is part of the reason for such low numbers of women in the FOSS community.

RANT OVER  :Very Happy:

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## daynah

Actually, men do better co-ed. I'm at work now, but it's in my notes somewhere in the basement where that came from. Basically it's because they have a group to be better than. Not that I'm against an all boy's school, if I could afford it, I think I'd send my future son to one.  :Smile: 

ComplexNumber, that isn't a "fringe" opinion. That (men and women having the same physical science and math ability) can be and has been proven. The reason women do not perform as well in these subjects "in the wild" and do not seek out these fields is completely social, and due to  the same belief in their physical inferiority that you have in us.

*We are not physically inferior.* I can do the same math as you can, and you can can make the same beautiful prose that I can. But you've been raised that beauty is a woman's domain and I've been raised that the cold hard rules of mathematics are a man's domain.

An example of a way this has been studied (this is one of the few I remember from one of my many classes I've gone over this) is... Top school, I forget which one. The scientistt picks out the same number of men and women in pairs. Each pair has the same grades in their math and the same SAT scores. They are divided into different groups group. One group is given the normal "this is a standardized test" blah blah talk and has men and women in it. 

In this group, the women do more poorly than the women (why? they were equally matched). 

In the next group, the same talk is given, but added the sentence "This test has not been shown to have any gender bias." The women either do as good as their counterpart, but often do better (showing that their grades that were used to match with probably had been a low ball indicator of their ability).

The last time, the counter parts are split up, segregated by sex. The basic talk is given, nothing about sex is mentioned. The women do just as well as expected, but the men do horrible. Why is that? Why would they do awful if women aren't there? (see first paragraph)

The most striking thing about this was that the sentence "There is no gender bias" could make the gender bias go away! If there really was a gender bias then it wouldn't be able to go away so easily... thus the gender bias must be all in our heads.

Thus, it must be caused by things around us, not by genes.

Thus, the only way to fix it is by fixing the thinking that goes on in all of our heads.

The thinking that causes you to think that females are physically inferior in mathematics and science.

I'm going into science. I want to study stress and its effect on the body (thus all the psychology courses also). I'll get a doctorate in Neuropsychology and Behavorial Neuroscience (or just a major in redundancy, you know, whatever). I want to study the neurobiology of social behavior. But people like you keep me down.

People like you make me wonder every day why, if I'm so gosh darn good at English (and I'm good, folks) why  don't I just give in, I still have time to change my major, and be a teacher.  I don't have to fight it. I wont need a doctorate. It'll be all women around me. Less supplies, cheaper books. More time at home with the future hubby.* People like you make me want to give up.*

And then we get a safe place like this little bitty spot on Ubuntu forums, and instead of most of the discussions being us finally getting a place to talk geekiness with other girls (another thread is us girls saying "Yup, don't have another girl in the world to talk to about geek stuff save here" go look at it, pretty sad), you people, yeah, you people who make me wanna give up my dream come in here and take over this whole section.

Well then. Why don't we just close it. Us girls wont be able to tell if we're talking to another girl or not, we'll think everyone on here is a guy, and we're still the only girl in the world who likes this stuff, and we are in fact all alone. Maybe we should just start acting like a "real" girl should. English teacher, expensive skirts, nice house, talk about boyfriends (not beryl) all the time, and jeeze, just give it up.

We'll give it up, for you, 'cause you whined.

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## yabbadabbadont

This same thing used to frustrate me all the time when I was tutoring kids in math.  Boys and girls both, though the girls more than the boys.  All I would hear is, "Math is too hard.  I can't do it."  It would take a while, but I usually could get it into their heads that it is only hard because society has been telling you that it is hard long enough that you believe it yourself.  Once I convinced them that it is only a matter of knowing, and following, a set of simple rules, they would start to get it.  Once they realized that they *could* do it, it became fun.  (and a lot easier for me to help them)

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## cprofitt

> PrivateVoid: I think you are trying to take the idea of equality to a ridiculous extreme to justify your arguments. By complaining about the drafting of men over women, and about all-female colleges you are setting up a straw man that bears little relevance to this discussion.
> 
> The point of the Ubuntu Women forum is that women are under-represented in the Ubuntu community, as well as in the wider context of the open source community. An Ubuntu Women forum allows all of us, male and female, to work out why this is together - and to show to women who look to open source that they will not be alone.
> 
> The reason there is no men's forum is that the arguments for the women's forum wouldn't apply. Men are neither under-represented within the community, nor pre-judged or disriminated against on the basis of their gender. Certainly there are examples in the wider world where this does occur, e.g. nannying/childcare, and I am sure that such groups (male childcarer unions) do exist for the same reasons that Ubuntu Women exists.
> 
> I'm afraid that some of the thinly-veiled sexism displayed by you and others in this thread is part of the reason for such low numbers of women in the FOSS community.
> 
> RANT OVER


Tom56 you are so out of line its disgusting. I am not exhibiting sexism. I am asking for equity. Sure this forum is a small issue compared to womens colleges and the draft, but the fact remains that things are unequal in society -- on both sides -- and I would like to see groups solve issues for both genders not just one.

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## cprofitt

Daynah:  I need some time to find it, but the latest material I have seen indicates that both sexes did better when they were in single sex classes. The study I need to find was at the elementary level -- so not sure if it applies to higher levels of education.

I am not sure why you have exploded with the idea that people don't want girls to be part of Ubuntu -- I certainly do -- I just want them to be part of it without special arrangements. I would like to make them feel comfortable to be in all areas not just ones labeled women.

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## cprofitt

> The point of this section isn't to "Segregate women into their own section." It's to show a female presence so that women will feel comfortable _integrating_ into the community.
> 
> I'm going to just come out and say that I don't agree with a lot of what LinuxChix does for example, because a lot of it feels like segregation, but that's not what this section is about.


Now that I can buy to a certain extent... I would endorse anything that makes women feel comfortable as long as it does not make others feel uncomfortable.

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## tom56

> Tom56 you are so out of line its disgusting. I am not exhibiting sexism.


To deny the existence of discrimination is to encourage it. I would also preceive the following as sexism:




> I find it odd that people engaged in an on-line forum would run around proclaiming themselve female when they feel they are feel they need a special area to feel comfortable. On-line forums do not require you to tell us your religion, sex, skin color, nationality or any other information about yourself.


Essentially you're telling people to pretend to be someone else in order to fit in. You're suggesting that this a boys' club and if women want to join then they can, just so long as you don't know they're doing it.

You seem to have an unjustified level of fear of a female community that I cannot even begin to comprehend. You think there should an Ubuntu Men group? Fine, then set one up - no one is stopping you. We'll soon see if such a group is needed based on the number who join you.

I apologise if I seem harsh, and I do believe that your intentions are good. But it is based on a false premise of there already being an equality that does not, in reality, exist. You believe that because everyone has an equal oppurtunity, then equality is the end result. Unfortunately there isn't equal oppurtunity, _even_ if only for historical reasons (the lack of women in the community drives others away, and the problem propagates itself).



But it's too late and I'm too tired to get into further discussions about patriarchies and prejudice (Jane Austen's poor-selling follow up, donchaknow  :Wink: ).

EDIT: And now I feel really bad because your last post (#356) was so sensible

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## jrusso2

All men should read this link

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

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## cprofitt

> To deny the existence of discrimination is to encourage it. I would also preceive the following as sexism:
> 
> Essentially you're telling people to pretend to be someone else in order to fit in. You're suggesting that this a boys' club and if women want to join then they can, just so long as you don't know they're doing it.


Err.. no. I did not tell them to be someone else. I told them there was no need to tell people that they were in a certain group -- that is a horse of a different color. I am suggesting that web forums, not just this one, are a club of humans with no need to tell us if they are female, male, brown, white, or yellow.




> You seem to have an unjustified level of fear of a female community that I cannot even begin to comprehend. You think there should an Ubuntu Men group? Fine, then set one up - no one is stopping you. We'll soon see if such a group is needed based on the number who join you.


There is no need to comprehend my "level of fear" because there is no fear. What there is a need to do is understand that just because I am not aligning myself with the current politically correct discriminiation that it does not make me afraid. I simply believe that to remove discrimination that you fight to remove it everywhere not just in select areas. You do not focus on one groups plight while ignoring anothers. You should seek to address both sides of the issue at the same time - equity. You do not create equity by asking for favorable treatment for one group over another.




> I apologise if I seem harsh, and I do believe that your intentions are good. But it is based on a false premise of there already being an equality that does not, in reality, exist. You believe that because everyone has an equal oppurtunity, then equality is the end result. Unfortunately there isn't equal oppurtunity, _even_ if only for historical reasons (the lack of women in the community drives others away, and the problem propagates itself).


I do not believe there is equity. My argument does not rely on that existing. Women have a certain set of inequities and men a different set, I seek to deal with both. Women should not be degraded if they choose career over family, nor should men face ridicule if they choose family over career. Fixing both sides of that equation actually helps both genders, fixing only the female aspect will never fix the problem.





> But it's too late and I'm too tired to get into further discussions about patriarchies and prejudice (Jane Austen's poor-selling follow up, donchaknow ).


We have all the time in the world on more days. I have to do a better job of making my position clear, because you clearly believe things that I do not stand for. I appologize for not being better at conveying my thoughts.




> EDIT: And now I feel really bad because your last post (#356) was so sensible


No sweat -- human communication is 80% body language and tone and that is not duplicable in a forum.

Lets just continue to work towards understanding each other and we can then hopefully truly make a difference in the world.

With one son and two daughters I would love to see equity.

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## cprofitt

> All men should read this link
> 
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/


Fairly good read thanks for the link.

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## FrozenFOXX

> All men should read this link
> 
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/


It's quite possible I'm wrong but in reading over that I've come to the disturbing conclusion that there's absolutely no way to NOT discourage women from Linux.  Assuming you followed all the steps you'd eventually reach the point where you'd feel pretty safe you're not doing anything wrong, correct?  That would lead you to the bottom about, "But I don't do that." That section pretty plainly states that you're _still_ a part of the problem anyway and nobody's told you, that's all.


If I could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

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## wulfhound

> Hi there,
> 
> I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.
> 
> A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like 
> 
> "Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"
> 
> This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.
> ...


Maybe people watching what they say is an issue with women in real life if, say, they're in an office and you don't want to start trouble (yes, BOTH genders can be touchy about things you say to them, implicating that women are "touchy" is actually a stereotype), but this is the net. If people want to reach out to others in their own gender, that's their thing. Encouraging more women to try Ubuntu is nice.

Here's the other thing: no one knows who's who online. I am sure a lot of the people posting on the ubuntu forums are women, and you just never realize. When I say a lot, I just mean, you never know. It's not like you could tell from any of MY posts that I'm a woman.

Just my $0.02....

Sandaili

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## wulfhound

> I think what the OP is trying to ask is why did we feel the need to make a special place for our lady posters.
> What makes them so "special" that they get their own forum. Why don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)
> 
> I wondered this originally but the mods posted some good reasoning for it (which is easily found since this forum is still comparitively small), and thought it was a cool networking strategy anyway.
> 
> Does that clear anything up or had you already gathered that?
> 
> And to poptones... Re: "I rarely read the name of the person who posted before": I rarely read the forum I'm in.
> I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads".
> ...


LOL...

Now I'm imagining some Ubuntu for Men forum where it's somewhat marketed like the Burger King commercials...do men actually like that kind of marketing? I personally hate where Burger King has gone (sexy women are great!!!! BUT! they're kinda creepy.....if they left out the creep factor, then looking at them wouldn't make me feel...weirded out...)  

If you all want to make a men's corner I think that'd be sweet. Ubuntu for MEN, not GEEKS! LOL!!! (since people tend to think that Linux users are little twiggy nerds and whatnot)....(okay, not everyone  :Wink:   )

Sandaili

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## gruepig

> On-line forums do not require you to tell us your religion, sex, skin color, nationality or any other information about yourself.


True, sex/gender disclosure isn't required.  But it is something that many people *want* to disclose.  It is something everyone should be able to disclose, without that unduly coloring their future involvements in the community.

Like it or not, most people on the Ubuntu Forums and other Linux/tech communities are male.  If a woman does not announce her sex/gender, she will likely be assumed to be a man (not just human, but a man; it's a statistically valid assumption).  Suggesting that women can hide their sex/gender in order to avoid discrimination or childish behavior is effectively to suggest that women can join the community by pretending to be men (and/or being mistaken as men).  In other words, one can either appear as a member xor a woman, but not both.

(Note: I've taken your quote out of context, and I doubt this is at all what you are suggesting.  However, it is something that has been suggested by others in this and similar threads.)

Women should not have to pass as men to be accepted as computer geeks.  Not all computer geeks are men (or women who "act like" men), and it's valuable for geeks and potential geeks of all ages and genders to have some examples and role models.

BTW, yes, I'm a woman and a Linux sysadmin.  I work with many other women sysadmins, developers, and other techies.  We may be the minority, especially in the traditionally male-dominated Internet forums, but we do exist.

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## DoctorMO

> it's a statistically valid assumption


i disagree, even if 99.9% of people are men (unknown factor anyway) and 0.1% are women, you should still treat anybody like a human being first. in regards to not having a difference in behaviour between how you treat women and men in real life if the first step towards being fair.

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## dinda

I get this question very often.  One of the trends that see in both Linux Chix, Ubuntu Women and similar groups is 'story sharing' of specific incidents of discrimination against women in the community or just tech in general  Some examples are just bad service in computer stores, via phone support calls, IRC trolls and inappropriate comments/questions online.  It's a pretty well documented trend that is disturbing.  What I've yet to see is a men's group posting such stories; i.e.  "I was in IRC the other day and some creep started PMing me asking what I was wearing."  or just a few minutes ago in the Ubuntu women IRC channel,  this gem from 
"Buckminste: Lay bear thy bosoms or leave post haste!"  

So I guess when we start seeing the "I just got my tech skills insulted b/c of my gender" or "b/c I'm a man they just assumed I knew nothing technical about Linux/SysAdmin/prgramming/etc." post by men then we won't need women's groups.

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## UbuntuniX

The trouble with "equality" is that most people handle it with hypocrisy.

Often, on this subject, men might treat women delicately, for example, because they believe in "equality". The problem is, generally, women are still treated differently, for better or worse.

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## teaker1s

Reading the last few posters, I would like to say all people with an interest in computers get equal time and help from me. 

I do think from my experience of forums that politeness and manners=more help

I won't treat anyone differently because of who they are or where they come from-all I look for is polite two way communication.

I think that everyone from all backgrounds should be encouraged and helped with their computing-for me that is *Ubuntu*

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## Pro-reason

> i disagree, even if 99.9% of people are men (unknown factor anyway) and 0.1% are women, you should still treat anybody like a human being first. in regards to not having a difference in behaviour between how you treat women and men in real life if the first step towards being fair.


Any how would we go about doing that, given that there is no pronoun in English for “a human being”?

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## NewbieGirl

Guys - and gals - I don't get it.... _I_ found Ubuntu, _I_ installed it - including  on my husband's computer,_ I_ maintain it - on both machines.... In what way does a PC care about the gender of the person F*** - umm xcuse me - messing with it?? 

You might as well talk about women and PCs in general.... those that are afraid of Linux might just be afraid of computers.. or gadgets... or simply anything new.... but this is beginning to sound like general population - of either gender... 
I don't believe in _gender_-related learning impairment (did I misspell it?)

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## Sef

> I don't believe in gender-related learning impairment (did I misspell it?)


You spelled it right.




> Any how would we go about doing that, given that there is no pronoun in English for a human being?


In descriptive english, they is often used as singular.

Finally, Locked.  This thread for necromancing.

----------

