# The Ubuntu Forum Community > Other Discussion and Support > Ubuntu Women >  Bug #2 ?

## bapoumba

Hi everyone  :Smile: 

I was discussing on another Ubuntu forum the reason why there were so few women involved in Ubuntu, in Linux in general, and may be in technological and science areas altogether.

I questioned myself whether I would post (please see the link below, if you happen to understand french  :Wink: ), as once again, the same ol' song was played (I just get tired of reading these kind of comments, my humor has evaporated to almost nothing on this, it is not so easy to give smart answers that will not turn the thread into flames, I feel sorry about it).

I have already described my perspective in other threads. I think this is mostly an education and a social issue, girls and boys being raised to comply to stereotypes. I see how the staff here is involved into having women (and other minorities) feel comfortable. Along with education, this is one of the possible answers we can all give, ie be civilized.

And yugo said half an our ago : this should be bug #2. He (she) has allowed me to carry that idea along. I think this is a good one. What's about you ?

http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=83788

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## matthew

> And yugo said half an our ago : this should be bug #2. He (she) has allowed me to carry that idea along. I think this is a good one. What's about you ?


I agree.

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## earobinson

I really don't think its a bug, I would love to see more women involved but I don't think that there is any reason that they arn't (unlike bug number one, where I see lots of reasons that linux is not more popular that we can combat). But IMO I think that men are just more partial to toys, now this could be a nature vs nurture thing but I don't think its a bug we can really tackle.

That being said the more woman we can get involved the better

*would love to meet more girls through com sci*

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## aysiu

While men in general may be "more drawn to toys," it's also true that many women who are initially attracted to technology (or to Linux specifically) can be easily alienated or discouraged (more so than their male counterparts) because of certain cultural norms in technology, sexist attitudes, and stereotypes. Some women with tougher skins make it in technology and thrive it in, but you shouldn't need to have a tough skin to be successful with Linux.

There are certainly factors outside of our control when it comes to the gender balance in Linux, but there are also a lot of things we _can_ change to make Linux more welcoming to women:
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

Just remember (even if we buy this whole idea that men are more "into" technology)--the vast majority of women out there who can afford to have a computer _do_ have a computer, and it has Windows on it. Who's to say they wouldn't be better off with Linux? You don't have to be "into toys" to use Linux.

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## earobinson

I have been told that there have been studies done that prove that in general men have better spacial skills, I think this is one of the things that gets men more interested in technology, lego (since people tend to be intrested in what they are best at and I think the whole building things skill leads to computer science), etc than woman.

That being said I think that there are a lot more woman interested in tech than there are in the tech industry, and this could be due to the fact that we alienate them, and there is room for improvment.

I just see it as something that will hapen over time and not something we can really change in a day. I feel as long as we dont discurage woman from linux they will come in time.

But I could be wrong and its only what I think

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## aysiu

> That being said I think that there are a lot more woman interested in tech than there are in the tech industry, and this could be due to the fact that we alienate them, and there is room for improvment.


 I'm glad we can agree on this, and that's why I don't really like nature v. nurture debates. I think you can change what you can change, and what you can't change, well, at least give it a try.

Also, you don't have to be interested in "technology" to use Linux. You may have to be interested in order to download, burn, install, and configure an operating system, but if all these supposedly not-interested-in-technology women out there are currently running Windows and Mac OS X, they could just as well be running Ubuntu, even if a more technology-minded woman or man installs and configures it for them.

I guess there are three facets to this gender issue:

1. How do we get more women who already interested in technology to pursue that interest? How do we develop an atmosphere that isn't sexist or conducive to attracting only women with the thickest skins who are able to laugh off every obstacle that comes in their way? That's more on the programmer/developer side of things.

2. How do we get more women who do tinker with things to install Linux themselves? Or do they already? Is the percentage of women tinkering with Linux the same low percentage as those who tinker with Windows?

3. How do we get more women end-users? Or is this, like #2, the same regardless of gender? And that preinstallation of Windows is a gender-neutral obstacle to people using Linux on the desktop?

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## dorcssa

> I have been told that there have been studies done that prove that in general men have better spacial skills, I think this is one of the things that gets men more interested in technology, lego


I like lego and played much with it!  :Very Happy:  Nad many of my girlfriends did.  :Mr. Green: 

Btw, what's bug#1? I'm not so familiar with this forum yet.

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## aysiu

> I like lego and played much with it!  Nad many of my girlfriends did. 
> 
> Btw, what's bug#1? I'm not so familiar with this forum yet.


https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1

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## dorcssa

Thanks aysiu.  :Smile:

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## K.Mandla

> How do we develop an atmosphere that isn't sexist ... ?


This, to me, is the most important first step. An abrasive atmosphere is counterproductive if we want women to be more involved in Ubuntu, even just as casual users. 

If Ubuntu and the culture around it don't seem open to women, then there's little hope of expecting women to participate. That's the ground rule from my perspective.

After that, I think recognizing and reinforcing the contributions women make to Ubuntu overall is necessary -- mostly because as that idea is repeated, it becomes less notable. The more we hear about women using, developing and contributing to Ubuntu, the less unusual it becomes. 

I know some women (I think Mimsy mentioned it in another thread) don't want a big deal made out of their contributions, and I can understand that. 

But it may be more important, in the present, to underscore what women already bring to Ubuntu, so that people (and not just men) realize that women have valid role in the phenomenon. 

While Mimsy (pardon me for using you as an example, Mimsy) might think her presence and opinions on Ubuntu are ordinary and not necessarily noteworthy, it's important for the next person to see and understand. Like it or not, Mimsy is a kind of role model for the people who will show up later. Mimsy and her counterparts set the tone.

I think over time it will just become an _understood_ fact -- that women are involved in the use, troubleshooting, installation and development of Ubuntu. It already _is_ a fact. But when we _all_ see that, then we've fixed Bug No. 2.  :Very Happy:

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## earobinson

personaly I have never thought of contubutions as mostly from men, I just thought of them as from people.

maybe Im the only one that thinks that we are wired differently to a certain point, Im not at all against making it easier for people to get involved. I just don't think we should focuses on any specific group.

If we go down this path bug number 3 could turn out to be "lets make it more easy for Americans to contribute" and I feel at a certain point that just gets silly and bug number 2 should really be lets make it more easy to let people contribute.

My gf also played with lego as a kid  :Capital Razz: 

Also as a disclaimer feminism has never appealed to me I have always considered my self more of an equaltairain (equal rights for everyone) more than anything else.

*Also I'm not trying to troll and if my opinions are unwanted I'm happy to leave, just giving my opinion that we should focuses our efforts on getting everyone involved more than just one group of people, after all Ubuntu is humanity towards others!*

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## aysiu

> If we go down this path bug number 3 could turn out to be "lets make it more easy for Americans to contribute" and I feel at a certain point that just gets silly and bug number 2 should really be lets make it more easy to let people contribute.


 I don't see that happening. Women make up roughly 50% of the world population and only about 4% of the Ubuntu forum population. You could argue that some women using Ubuntu may not want to use the forums, but would that account for a different of 46% in representation?

Americans, on the other hand, are not underrepresented at all. I believe equal treatment doesn't always mean same treatment. If someone beats your arm to a bloody pulp, you need surgery on your arm, not your whole body. If women are excluded from technology and subjected to an unfriendly atmosphere in it, that gender-related problem should be addressed. Americans face no such obstacles any more than Australians or South Africans or Chinese.

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## earobinson

I used the American example since I did not want to single out any race so I picked something generic.

But I will tell you from experience many races are under represented in computer science, linux, and the tech industry.

I can give examples but don't feel its necessary or appropriate unless you ask me to, since it just singles them out.

Also "on the internet no one knows your a dog" goes a long way here, I don't see posters as man or woman just as a poster since there is no way to tell unless they want you to know.

also I have nothing wrong with Ubuntu woman as a sub form and think its kinda cool. I just don't think this is bug number 2.

edit: anyone else having problems editing there threads in non advanced mode?

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## OldTimeTech

Some women don't use what people expect as Login names/titles in these forums either.

Also, I think they check the forums out (more than you might think) get the answers they want and go on to make their linux machines their own  :Wink: 

They don't do as many replies, because of the sterotypical responses from others about women in tech.

Thick skinned, nah, just want to be safe and unobtrusive  :Wink:

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## aysiu

I agree--this is not bug #2. It _is_ a problem, though.

And if there are races underrepresented in the Linux world (I didn't know there were), I think that underrepresentation should be addressed too.

As for the anonymity thing, I don't think that negates the issue. First of all, people making sexist remarks and jokes all the time does not create an atmosphere that makes a woman feel welcome. She doesn't have to declare "I'm a woman! Hey, everybody. I'm a woman!" but she knows she's a woman, and she's still affected by those comments.

I don't go around the forums shouting I'm Asian-American, but if people started making all sorts of ching-chong-chang jokes and saying "Chink" and "Jap" all the time, I wouldn't feel comfortable here, no matter what I disclose to people about my racial background.

Also, the fact that you don't declare your gender doesn't mean others don't. For example, because women are underrepresented, most people here assume other forum members are men unless they have usernames like _KatieG_ or _Sarah_. Assuming everyone is male is not the same was everyone being non-gendered. It's the same as saying everyone is male unless people go out of their way to declare themselves female.

Have you heard of the concept of passing? That's essentially what women here have to do--pass--unless they want undue attention, online advances, and tokenism. I don't think people here are all treated the same at all.

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## earobinson

> And if there are races underrepresented in the Linux world (I didn't know there were), I think that underrepresentation should be addressed too.


 Thats why I tend to be for just making ubuntu more friendly assessable and easy to contribute for everyone.




> I don't go around the forums shouting I'm Asian-American, but if people started making all sorts of ching-chong-chang jokes and saying "Chink" and "Jap" all the time, I wouldn't feel comfortable here, no matter what I disclose to people about my racial background.


 I think your right that no discrimination of any kind should be aloud on the forums.

I also think that the forums is a great place to address the problems of any one that is underrepresented but its not bug number 2.

All in all I feel like we are on the same page aysiu  :Smile: 

*Canadian here ... parents are both British... man*

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## aysiu

Right on.

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## John.Michael.Kane

aysiu you have women chauvinist as well. Who mind you have contempt for the opposite sex.

So how are you going to create an atmosphere that makes any woman feel welcome. when you will eventually have to deal with the above kind of women.

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## aysiu

> aysiu you have women chauvinist as well. Who mind you have contempt for the opposite sex.
> 
> So how are you going to create an atmosphere that makes any woman feel welcome. when you will eventually have to deal with the above kind of women.


I don't know. How do you create any kind of atmosphere?

As moderators, we have the power to move threads, delete threads, give users infractions... even ban them. We don't really have full control of the atmosphere. Threads like this give us a chance to determine any common goals and share practices for trying to create a welcoming atmosphere, but it's up to the entire community to create that atmosphere.

Trolls and flamebaiters will always try to stir people up. The most we can do is appeal to well-intentioned users and try to get them to realize it's not about creating an old-boys network--even if that's accidental.

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## bapoumba

As far as bug #2 is concerned, once again this is not my original idea, but yugo's on another forum. I send him an email, linking to that thread, for him (turns out he's a him  :Wink: ) to read. Before I posted, I actually carefully looked at bug #1, and could write down a bug #2 based on the same skeleton. With a larger society impact, of course, not just PC industry. That made sense, like an uprising spiral.
More women involved and Ubuntu end-users, more access to information and education, more women be able to make their own choices, more women in technology, in computer sciences, more women in Ubuntu ...

But do not get me wrong, this is an idea we all have to check, no matter what will come out about a real bug #2 or not.
I just do not buy the biological or mental representation differences.

About the forum atmosphere, I think it is also very important for the staff to be watching out. I'll leave aside all the very good reasons, respect and such, we basically all agree. There is one more : I believe in examples. If your let threads go a little wild, or disrespectful (and not only about women), next time another thread will go wilder, and wilder, and soon we'll be back to the uncivilized times. Not talking about whom could feel uncomfortable reading.
If rules are enforced (and I know they are), the whole basic level can rise, this is a very long term goal.

We can all make a difference. I think time will change mentalities, but only if we want it and work on it, all together.

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## macogw

> I have been told that there have been studies done that prove that in general men have better spacial skills, I think this is one of the things that gets men more interested in technology, lego (since people tend to be intrested in what they are best at and I think the whole building things skill leads to computer science), etc than woman.
> 
> That being said I think that there are a lot more woman interested in tech than there are in the tech industry, and this could be due to the fact that we alienate them, and there is room for improvment.
> 
> I just see it as something that will hapen over time and not something we can really change in a day. I feel as long as we dont discurage woman from linux they will come in time.
> 
> But I could be wrong and its only what I think


The studies saying guys are left-brained and girls are right-brained have been refuted.  It seems more common as adults, but its because those halves get more exercise dependent upon gender due to the types of mental stimulation they are brought up with.  Boys are taught to play with erector sets.   Girls are taught to play house.  Which gender gets the logic/math/science exercise from an early age?

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## hod139

The underrepresentation of women extends far beyond Ubuntu users.  I am a computer science grad student (male) and know too well how underrepresented females are in the sciences. Interestingly, and in the theme of this thread, today I received an email about "Computer Research Association's Committee on the Status of Women in Computing Research", which is a "action oriented organization dedicated to increasing the number of women participating in Computer Science and                                     Engineering (CSE) research and education at all levels."  As this group has similar goals I decided to post their site here (I am not affiliated with them in any way, so if this inappropriate just delete the links).

If you are interested, here is the homepage for CRA-W, and here is the specific graduate workshop email link I received.

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## earobinson

> The studies saying guys are left-brained and girls are right-brained have been refuted.  It seems more common as adults, but its because those halves get more exercise dependent upon gender due to the types of mental stimulation they are brought up with.  Boys are taught to play with erector sets.   Girls are taught to play house.  Which gender gets the logic/math/science exercise from an early age?





> nnate differences reliably established
> 
> (from the U of T Bulletin, May 9/05)
> 
> Apparently the existence of innate differences between men and women is as contentious at the University of Toronto as it is at Harvard (Differences in National Cultures Overlooked and Women Still Fair Game, Letters, April 25).
> 
> Ed Andrew makes an interesting point that is often raised to suggest that barriers to women in the physical sciences are purely cultural. Of course, this argument is persuasive only if universities in the countries he cites attract the most mathematically and scientifically able individuals as they do in the United States, Canada and Britain. If, as Professor Andrew himself notes, these gifted individuals instead gravitate to industry or emigrate because of low academic salaries, then the high female percentages in these universities mean little.
> 
> Vassos Hadzilacos appears to believe that there are no innate differences between men and women, at least not in the sphere of intellectual abilities. While this may comfort him and his fellow ideologues, it is simply not true. As Doreen Kimura has observed in her book Sex and Cognition, it has been reliably established for several decades now that the same prenatal hormones that produce the obvious physical differences between the sexes also strongly influence many behaviours and abilities. These differences have been especially well established for such mental attributes as spatial tasks and mathematical reasoning, particularly at the highest level, where men excel as well as object location and verbal memory where women excel. Added to these differences in aptitude are different inborn preferences  men prefer object-oriented occupations, women prefer more person-oriented fields.
> ...


Unless you have something more recent than that this is a topic of on going research with people sitting on both sides of the fence but nothing has been refuted, and there are a lot of academic papers supporting my claim, the above one only took second to find.

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## Sef

> such mental attributes as spatial tasks


Actually left handers are better at spatical tasks than right handers.

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## aysiu

I don't see how you can have a scientifically valid study of what's "innate" and what's culturally influenced in gender. Where would you get a control? Influences are *everywhere*. There is no gender-neutral cultural vacuum where you can raise women or men to pursue whatever they'd "naturally" want to pursue.

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## DoctorMO

Sounds like we're looking in the wrong place for this bug, it's a social bug and we should be campaigning more for child rights since it's quite clear the most damage to equal treatment is done in early years.

The tests pointed out above to do with right/left your right it was refuted, what wasn't is more recent scans of new born babies that show a tendency of about 70% more advanced detail mapping brain section in girls and a 65% tendency towards more advanced spacial mapping in boys. we're always at the point we're you can give a fairly accurate prediction if the person will be a girl with a strong male type brain or a boy with a strong female type brain (they do exist and are not rare and it has nothing to do with sexual behaviour either).

I feel the same way as a previous post, I don't see the people I meet online as being male, or female. I see them as people; I was brought up with the idea that your a person first and you fill in properties later on as you get to know them.

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## msjulie

Hello All,

I've enjoyed this discussion.  Whether we call it 'bug #2 ' in my book is not important.

I received my first does of *nix in college back in '92.  There were very few women in my computer classes.

In my opinion (IMO), using a distro of GNU / Linux has been very technical until recent years.  Debian and products like Ubuntu have drastically changed that though.

Do to culture--gender role enforcement--this has, traditionally, narrowed the field of folks willing to take on the learning curve involved in using an non-ubiquitous OS.

The good news is the learning curve is much lower now.  Unfortunately, in many counties culture still reinforces the gender stereotypes.

Lowering the investment needed to successfully install and use GNU / Linux has made it more appealing to 'all' people, not just women.

I think most people just want to use a computer to get things done--or play games...whatever.  I don't think the average person wants to get bogged down in the details of how to get the computer to do it.  This is just like driving a car.  Most people don't want to build or fix them--just drive them.

Women are way under represented in GNU / Linux due to many layers discrimination--whether intentional on not.  Many of these factors include gender roles within society:  A traditional steering away of females from math and science; A traditional steering away of females from computers--men using machines (stereotype) and tinkering with them (stereotype.)  This leads to a very male dominated field.  Now add another layer of many years where a high learning curve was involved to gain benefit from GNU / Linux in a male dominated field, I can see why there are so few women users and contributors.

It is quite a hill to climb for anyone.  Even more so if one, as a woman, feels alone, unwanted, unconnected, and/or outright discriminated against in the process.

So, what would be the benefit, traditionally, for women to engage GNU / Linux?  Not much in my book.

I would hope the products like Ubuntu, coupled with forums like this can help to alter peoples attitudes and help women get more involved in great things in computers and science, math and engineering, and machines and mechanics.

This forum is about advocacy for women in Ubuntu, but I see it's greater goal as equality--for all people.

Well, that's my take..

Julie

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## robzon

To be honest - all the girls I gave Ubuntu to were very satisfied.
That means that girls in general can and prolly would enjoy using Ubuntu. They just don't install it themselves. Why?

Well, #1 on my list is awareness. None of my girlfriends heard of it before. Don't get me wrong, but it's easier to hear about Linux and get help with it when you're a guy. Guys to guys talk about technology. Guys to girls hardly ever talk about tech, especially about Linux  :Wink: 
My girlfriends wouldn't find out about Ubuntu if it wasn't for broken Windows. They've had to ask me for help with their PC before I told them about Ubuntu - I would never guess that they may become Linux users...

Unfortunately, I don't really know what to do about this issue...

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## tommytom

Bug #2 seems to be an on going topic within many sections of the Ubuntu Community. Which i feel is a great achivement and is significant of more than just a start to greater female participation. The Ubuntu Forums seem to have a number of high profile and vocal female members, which is as it should be. Overall Ubuntu is already one of the most inclusive, helpful  and friendly communitys i have come across. IMO things are already begining to change with regards to gender equality but progressive (as opposed to revolutionary) change happens slowly. So if we all help others to understand that this is an inclusive community it will remain so and will expand as such to include a greater diversity of people than it already does.

  I feel that we in the Ubuntu community should now be looking to increase participation world wide in all sections and areas of the global community but in particular the underprivilged of the poor world, often black and often women. However i don't think we can do this alone by greater access to the Ubuntu Community, to run Ubuntu you need a computer, to run a computer you need electricity and so on, could this be Bug #3?. I feel while access is an important part of enfranchising people to this global society, societal change across the full spectrum of human interaction is key GNU/Linux, the FSM and these forums are part of that, perhaps a template?.

Anyway if anybody is still awake out there, thats my tuppence worth  :Smile:

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## bapoumba

> Anyway if anybody is still awake out there, thats my tuppence worth


Still awake  :Wink: 
And yes, this is the most friendly Linux community I know.

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## K.Mandla

> However i don't think we can do this alone by greater access to the Ubuntu Community, to run Ubuntu you need a computer, to run a computer you need electricity and so on, could this be Bug #3?.


Uh-oh. Bug dependencies. ...  :Very Happy: 

You make a very valid point, though.

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## tommytom

> And yes, this is the most friendly Linux community I know.


 I actually ment Community, not just in Linux. Maybe i've led a sheltered life though  :Very Happy:  anyhoos it's great to communicate with people who have well thought out and at times challenging opinions. Thanks

*sound of mutual backslapping*

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## Sef

> I actually ment Community, not just in Linux.


Some communities are not too friendly to newbies.   They expect people to figure things out themselves.   Here all work together to solve problems.

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## macogw

> Guys to guys talk about technology. Guys to girls hardly ever talk about tech, especially about Linux


My boyfriend and I talk about coding while we're cuddling.  I know what you mean though.  One of my friends (before we met, this was online) said "but I thought you were a girl.  why are you coding?"  Apparently between my 1500 kid school and his 2000 kid school, I was the only girl to take a comp sci class.  I think one of the guys in my last programming class said something about why's there a girl on the first day of classes too.  Then I showed them up by having a fully written, debugged, and commented assignment finished before the first class period ended on a two-day assignment.  No more girl comments  :Very Happy:  (at-the-time 60 wpm typing probably had a lot to do with that...now up to 80)

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## John.Michael.Kane

macogw female or not. coding skills or not. If you can the job done with out making it about what gender is better thats all that matters.

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## queen_yoshi

As a women in a very male dominated career (more than IT is even!) I must say I have met many women who seem to think that just because I am in the job I am I should be some sort  of gender role model. I would like to say that after 16 years I hold my own and then some in my job and have nothing but respect from the people I work with (read guys), and I beleive it comes from not actually looking for respect or acknowledgement that I am a women in a traditionally male role, just another professional.

I think the same should happen with women in IT fields. 

Like my job not all women are interested in the same things we are, many still prefer hair and makeup over tech anyday, and thats never going to change. Some more women may come into the fray but it wont be enough to probably lose the stigma attatched (unfortunately) that seems apparent today from some guys.

Thats just my opinion, by the way I am an Aircraft Mechanic, have been since finishing high school in 91 and have heard a LOT of crap from guys over the years from I must be a lesbian to I must be a feminist to do what I do. I have a thick skin though, and am happily attatched (to another mechanic but a guy lol) and we have 2 beautiful little girls!  :Mr. Green:

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## angrykeyboarder

> I... I think that there are a lot more woman interested in tech than there are in the tech industry, and this could be due to the fact that we alienate them, and there is room for improvment.


How do you think we alienate them?

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## aysiu

> How do you think we alienate them?


I think you should read this:
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO

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## blitzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder View Post
How do you think we alienate them?




> I think you should read this:
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO



You don't think men do this to each other ?   :Razz:    We all some way or another alienate each other, it's life's hurdle we all have to jump over.

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## earobinson

> How do you think we alienate them?


The fact is there is something to be said for nurture and we (society) tend to give girls dolls as they grow up. Also the link posted by aysiu was great (no mater how long it took me to read it)

*That being said I dont think this is something ubuntu should address it. we should make ubuntu as open to everyone as possible but not target any one group

*I did here and interesting quote the other day a minority group was speaking about affirmative action and the quote went something like. When you give a group special privileges or attention  what you are really saying to that group is that you are to weak to make it on your own.

I feel that this is reason enough for us to make ubuntu as friendly as we can to all users without focusing on any one group




> Actually left handers are better at spatical tasks than right handers.


So maybe left handed men are the best, right handed men are second best, left hand woman are second worst, and right handed woman are the worst.

Your point does not refute my claim

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## WebDrake

> Unless you have something more recent than that this is a topic of on going research with people sitting on both sides of the fence but nothing has been refuted, and there are a lot of academic papers supporting my claim, the above one only took second to find.


OK, I'll bite.

The spatial awareness difference between the sexes is very well established in the literature (another is that women are socially more sophisticated) but I don't believe there is any firm conclusion about _why_ it is so.

I can tell you that a friend of mine did research into this topic in the context of "learned helplessness", which is exactly what it sounds like: people do indeed learn to be helpless at particular things, and it looks like this plays a major part in the lack of spatial awareness skills.

You can provide spatial awareness training for people, and interestingly, whereas men generally see a small benefit from it, women can experience one of two things: a _big_ benefit, or an actual _loss_ of ability.  This ties in with the "learned helplessness" hypothesis.  One of the issues is that training has to address the fact that the person has this problem, otherwise it will reinforce their received mental ideas.  ("I got that thing wrong, it just goes to show I can't do this, I should just give up now ....")

My impression is that if you take steps to deal with the "learned helplessness" phenomenon, you will see differences like this vanish.

It's not so different from the medical study of caffeine.  The research was believed to show a positive effect on alertness from caffeine intake.  Then some bright spark realised that the people in the experiments hadn't been screened for coffee- or tea-drinking.  New experiments were carried out in which all subjects went cold turkey on caffeine for several weeks prior to the experiment, and no caffeine benefits were observed.  The "benefit" in the previous experiment was simply not suffering the side-effects of existing addiction.

Studies which don't compensate for phenomena like learned helplessness are probably going to run into a similar problem.

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## ZeBob

> I think you should read this:
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO


This one may interest you too : http://tille.xalasys.com/cyberfeministe/HOWTO/

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## glabouni

I think, this situation is not adressed in the correct way. why focus only on not enough women in linux/sciences when we could also say too many men in linux/sciences? Actually thinking this way is making a big mistake from the very start. 
when one think in terms of man/woman, uncousciously one thinks of straight people and rules out bisexual, homosexual, transgender, ... this is a matter of social and cultural programming and conditioning.

To get the situation right, you have to envision it in a global way and put things into perspective. "think global, act local". when you can comprehend this very situation without making any gender differentiation, that means you're getting it right. 

Actually I've done quite a bit of research on this matter, it clearly appears that it has less to do with gender than with how people raise their children. The underlying of this parental behaviour being intricated with cultural and social matters, transmitted through traditions and originating in religion. 
I could write pages and pages on this fascinating subject, telling you about how IQ test was modified with more sports questions because women were getting better score than men, pointing out that this gender segretation emerged from the christian religion partly as a strategy to convert people from paganism, and many others things from multiple different domains but I feel like this is not the right place for this and this is a subject of discussion that ends in flaming and reach the godwin point fast. But I encourage each and everyone interested in this to make their own research to come their own conclusion. 

here is mine in a single line:
*- if you want to get women into linux, simply get children into linux.*

Please bear with me and keep in mind that children are the most important beings on earth and should be treated with the outmost respect. our role as elders is to protect them, to accompany them through childhood while giving them what really matters in life so they can transmit it to the next generation. ( time binding )

I don't think I need to explain that getting more women into linux is a long shot and will take a long time. over several generations you can only get a little women proprotion into linux. But if you get children into linux, it is easier as children look at grown-ups for models, and children will all turn into grown-ups and over a few generations a whole lot of people will have turned to linux. There's no secret here, tobacco industry main target is children and teens.

ask yourself if you were taught about linux as a child, would you be using windows as a grownup ?

A good start is to get rid of our own conditioning anf programming and to learn to think by ourselves again. For those who woud like to achieve that, I can point in the direction of general semantics: http://www.time-binding.org

hoping this will be helpful and adding to the discussion.

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## bapoumba

Hello !

Well, I think that on the long run, you are right, and I hope my kids (3 boys) will have even more opportunities and choices than I had.

But, I just partially agree with you.

I did not post here my deep thinkings, as it can be quite controversial. Briefly, I think this is some inheritance of "dark ages" ( :Wink: ) where women were considered to be inferior, the devil, have smaller brains, just name it.
How many psychiatric disorders have been named after women specific stuff, like hysteria for ex., not even talking about religious believes, witches (sound quite bad in French when you say that a woman is a "sorcière", sounds evil) when men were sorcerers (that sounds good, super-powers men that accomplish good magical things).

Then in the 1800, male medical doctors started to change that point of view, when they realized that the wealth of a society (and of its workers) depended on the health of all members, women and kids included. Then women started to be valuable when they were healthily giving birth. Then they got to vote a hundred years later  :Wink: 

Now, do you (all) think this kind of discussion could have been done say just 5 year ago on a Linux forum ? I doubt it. Ubuntu made a difference, a very big one. Aiming at desktop integration, at end users not dipped into compiling kernels from childhood made it possible. Half of these end users can be women.

We always have to start somewhere.

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## glabouni

I would be delighted to know where you disagree with what I said here. 
my guess is this is probably due to me not explaining myself clearly enough. And this for 2 reason:
-  first reason is, this is my saying with my own words, but this is not my opinion, this is human history, it is quite well documented. I, myself had to accept this as a fact, many informations in many different domains all converging to this fact, and these informations are spread over centuries. I did my best at challenging this fact and now there is no way to deny it. Actually it's quite obvious when you're no more oblivious to it. And once again, do not take my word for it, make your own research, thinking and mind.

- second reason is what you posted as being controversial, is actually controversial and is the reason why I didn't want to write too much about it. What you think about "dark ages" happen to be absolutely true, and this written in human history.

Let me explain one point that I think I was not clear enough about**: when I say that this is originating in religion, I'm not talking about people of faith and believers. I'm talking about people abusing those people of faith, a.k.a. clergy and other person who occupy a rank of power in religion hierachy. 

I'm gonna assume here that you (the reader) know about christian religion history in Europe and the techniques used to gain power over the people ("converting them"), if you don't have at least some notions of it was done, please read about it and know that christmas was made a celebration day to help convert the many "pagan" people who were celebrating winter solstice (such as vikings for example), one of the many means used at the time. So clergy was aiming at converting the whole world to gain control and power over the people all over the world, and where it failed (vikings, japan, ...) shows us a lot about it was done. The point here is that where women were treated with respect and matriarcal societies before christianity conversion, were seeing women as potential evil after conversion.
The biggest problem here being christians burning all traces of previous history so the previous culture would die in a rapid turnover and to make room to create new memories to replace the erased ones. (an example of this method is how the hopi people were separated from their young by US government, youngs were sent to schools (brainwashed) and didn't want to hear about their own culture or simply don't believe in it anymore and disrespect their elders and their teachings).

And for centuries direct consequences of these have lead our society and culture to despise and look down on women as if they were less important/useful than men and placed under men in a hierarchy that don't even exist. Of course christianity is just an illustration of one of the things amongs many others that played a part/role in leading some human societies where they are today (money would be another one, but that's a whole other story). it is a pity that one of the worst happens to be the largest and I happen to have grown in it, but this is not hopeless as I'm a living example that it is possible to be born in such a society and not bear any of the society misbeliefs, which gave me and is still giving me a hard time living in this society.

in short, what you think about "dark ages" inheritance is absolutely true, look into history of christianity to get clues about the how and why of these "dark ages", look at what was in place before christianity wiped it out for insight of what was the role of women before "dark ages", you could be surprised. 

One important thing to keep in mind is this one: "men really are superiors to women, this is absolutely true, can't be denied and I mean it" (HHOS)

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## matthew

I think bapoumba has made a great point. The ultimate goal would certainly be the equal treatment of people without focusing on extraneous attributes. However, we live in a world that is less than ideal, a world that sees those attributes and uses them as a part of decision making even when they are not necessarily applicable. For example, being female does not in and of itself have any real bearing on one's computer skills and yet many people act as if it does. Confronting this attitude is a necessary step before the idealism of glabouni's earlier post saying that we need to focus on the children. 

I agree that for the sake of the future that children must be taught now, but in saying this as the sole step it sounds as if one might write off the current generation as hopeless and just move on so that in some 20-30 years women might have a chance. I'm not prepared to consider today's population expendable.

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## bapoumba

Hi everyone ,

two good papers from Joyce Park on venturebeat, regarding the "gender gap" in Silicon Valley tech entrepreneurs, and suggesting a one-year, non-degree, Silicon Valley-sponsored program for women :
http://www.venturebeat.com/contribut...ng-gender-gap/
http://www.venturebeat.com/contribut...dest-proposal/

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## matthew

> Hi everyone ,
> 
> two good papers from Joyce Park on venturebeat, regarding the "gender gap" in Silicon Valley tech entrepreneurs, and suggesting a one-year, non-degree, Silicon Valley-sponsored program for women :
> http://www.venturebeat.com/contribut...ng-gender-gap/
> http://www.venturebeat.com/contribut...dest-proposal/


That was very interesting...

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## glabouni

while looking for an article about brain surgery, I found the following article on everything2.com website: she's so cute. 
Worth a read IMO.

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## Sef

> where women were considered to ... have smaller brains


From a medical standpoint, women's brains are smaller than men's; however, they have just as many neurons as men's brains.  The neurons in women's brains are more compact.  To put it another way, men's brains have more air in them.  :Razz:

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## matthew

> From a medical standpoint, women's brains are smaller than men's; however, they have just as many neurons as men's brains.  The neurons in women's brains are more compact.  To put it another way, men's brains have more air in them.


So you're saying it's Moore's Law at work...ladies have the more advanced Brain v2.0 processors with smaller transistors.  :Smile:

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## glabouni

> From a medical standpoint, women's brains are smaller than men's; however, they have just as many neurons as men's brains.  The neurons in women's brains are more compact.  To put it another way, men's brains have more air in them.


actually neurons are only the visible part of the brain iceberg. The glial cells are another part of this iceberg, and not less than one that influences neurons in their growth and activity.




> Gentlemen, I have a confession to make - half of what we have taught you is in error; and furthermore we cannot tell you which half it is.

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## K.Mandla

> while looking for an article about brain surgery, I found the following article on everything2.com website: she's so cute. 
> Worth a read IMO.


Wow, that didn't sugarcoat anything. Good read.

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## glabouni

A quickfix to bug#2 is described here: The Mastery of Love - an interview with Don Miguel Ruiz by Diane M. Cooper
wikipedia entry for Don Miguel Ruiz

this only applies to child and volunteers, you can't force someone into applying this to an adult oneself, though we can apply to our adult selves ourselves, also for perpetuation overtime,it is required to apply this to children.
starting now, even if it seems a small in scale, as it is a self perpetuating this change will eventually fix the bug#2 along with others social problem. 

starting with an attainable mark would be to initiate this change among the linux community, which could start with a simple howto distributed via internet and included in linux distros. 
initiating this change in the linux community being the first step to intiating this change over the internet, which obviously lead to bring this change to world.

the bugfix is the ready, now you only have to find the patch and apply yourself as this will only be included into the kernel in the next release (meaning the children who grow up in such an environment won't have to a pply it to themselves)

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## bapoumba

Southern California Linux Exposition (SCALE 5x) hosted today a Women in Open Source Mini-Conf.
Jem Matzan reported the day being a life-changing experience for all who attended.
Read his summary here: http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/300/

    * numbers are given (about 20% women in IT, far less in Free Software, ie 1.5 %)
    * reasons for these low numbers are discussed
    * links to women in FOSS sites are provided (most of them have already been linked in here)

To be noted, and thats not the first time I read this, women speakers emphasized FOSS as based on meritocracy with no real glass ceiling for women, as can be found in other technological areas.

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## glabouni

Coming from open source structural design, IMHO there can't be any glass ceilling at all in open source. any ceiling one might encounter would be visible by far and could be removed.

the cathedral and the bazaar

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