# The Ubuntu Forum Community > Other Discussion and Support > Ubuntu Women >  What advice would you give to women who think Linux is "hard"?

## some_random_noob

I'm currently talking to various people online about Linux, there appears to be a reasonable amount of women who are 25+ who use the internet in their day-to-day life... I have to say, 100% of them think that computing in general is "hard" and think Linux is even worse. They all seem to have the same opinions: computing is hard, linux sounds weird and confusing, they don't want to try installing Linux and they have never even seen Linux.

If they knew me in real life, they would have no problem letting me install Linux on an old computer as a demonstration, however like I said I'm talking online - none of them live anywhere near me so *I can't show them what Linux is like* and *they won't try it out themselves*.
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Assuming you're a woman...

- Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?
- Do you find Linux hard to use?
- Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?
- Does it meet your needs?
- Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?

Also, don't just answer the questions, what I'm looking for is an overview of what you think about Linux. How much *** does it kick? Is it really that "nerdy" and "hard" as people claim it is? Would you recommend it to other women as a good alternative to Vista? ... just write about your experience and how you found it compared to Windows - you could also write a direct message as I might send this thread to other people. You don't have to answer my questions, those are really just for suggestions.

- Thanks for your support!  :Very Happy:

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## PurplePenguin

> If they knew me in real life, they would have no problem letting me install Linux on an old computer as a demonstration, however like I said I'm talking online - none of them live anywhere near me so *I can't show them what Linux is like* and *they won't try it out themselves*.


Isn't this why there are live cds?  No need to install anything.  

I'm not a woman, so this is my cue to stop interrupting.  :Very Happy:

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## some_random_noob

> Isn't this why there are live cds?  No need to install anything.  
> 
> I'm not a woman, so this is my cue to stop interrupting.


um... seriously? The broadband is slow ^&^%$(*ing slow in New Zealand that no one would dare waste their bandwidth on something that might not even be worth it. 

I asked for opinions so that I can show others this thread - that way people can read the opinions of Linux users. Downloading a live cd is a bit um... well, I want non-Linux users to hear advice straight from Linux users. No one will just use a live cd - but if someone knows that other people use Linux and read their experiences... then... that makes more sense doesn't it?

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## raul_

I'm a guy, but i usually find that if women are taunted, they do anything they want  :Wink:  just sat something like "oh pff...you just find it hard because you're a woman, you're inferior" 

You'll get the crap beat out of you, and she'll never talk to you again, unless she calls you to tell you that she is using Linux with Beryl running  :Capital Razz: 

(not a serious post though)

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## some_random_noob

> I'm a guy, but i usually find that if women are taunted, they do anything they want  just sat something like "oh pff...you just find it hard because you're a woman, you're inferior" 
> 
> You'll get the crap beat out of you, and she'll never talk to you again, unless she calls you to tell you that she is using Linux with Beryl running 
> 
> (not a serious post though)


Thanks for wasting my time with a completely useless post, I really needed that.

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## meng

(Also not a woman)

I can't see this as a true women's issue. There are plenty of men who take the same "it's too hard" approach to Linux. Sure the proportions may differ between the sexes, but it strikes me as a common attitude all around.

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## -Phi-

Yeah, live CDs is what it's all about. They can get one mailed to them free. That's what the mailing thing is there for. They try it out and decide for themselves. If it's too different from Windows, then they should stick with what works for them. Also, I agree with the previous poster that the woman thing is more or less irrelevant. I've long since learned that it's not worth forcing things on anyone without their interest.

Anyway, being a woman I'll answer your questions, but I don't think it will be helpful:

- Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?
No harder than Windows was to set up and configure certainly, but I don't think people who use computers as tools only are interested in doing any set up and configuration. I don't really see why they should be.

- Do you find Linux hard to use?
No. I find it more intuitive than other operating systems I've used. If it wasn't, I wouldn't use it.

- Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?
My computer  :Smile:  Mine! Google helps some  :Razz: 

- Does it meet your needs?
95% of my needs (mostly internetting). The other 5% are met by Win2K running CS2 for campus magazine layout design.

- Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?
Haven't used Vista. From what I've seen, I think it will confuse a lot of people, so yes, I would consider Ubuntu to be a good alternative as far as less confusing. Whether it's a good alternative for XP or Win2K depends on what a person is used to using, whether they're willing to learn, and what programs they need to run.

- Phi

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## raul_

> Thanks for wasting my time with a completely useless post, I really needed that.


I was counting on your capacity of understading the point  :Think:  but ok, here it is:

They say that they can't, but they can. If they don't want it, that's another story. Hand them a Live CD and say "Browse!!". It's normal that they don't want to install it, probably they didn't even install Windows, it came with the computer. I think Ubuntu is just complicated if you want to do your tweaks. If you leave it alone it's just straightforward. 

Again, be annoying, ask why they find it difficult, convince them that is not, give them graphical guide instead of saying things like repositories, packages, kernel, text editor, tool, blablabla. Have an expert set her computer up, just like she got her Windows set up too.

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## Pikestaff

*Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?* It was very easy to install... the setup and configuration took a little bit of work and there were times when it frustrated me but the community is large and helpful and I had everything set up within a day or two.

*Do you find Linux hard to use?* Nope

*Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?* Nope, I installed it and set it up myself ^^

*Does it meet your needs?* All except for some PC gaming that I do, but I use a Windows comp for that (I have two computers; I use my Windows computer mostly for gaming, and Linux for... basically everything else, because I prefer it.)

*Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?* I don't know because I haven't tried Vista =P  But I think it gives XP a run for its money, so I assume it will stand up to Vista pretty well too.




> Also, don't just answer the questions, what I'm looking for is an overview of what you think about Linux. How much *** does it kick? Is it really that "nerdy" and "hard" as people claim it is? Would you recommend it to other women as a good alternative to Vista? ... just write about your experience and how you found it compared to Windows - you could also write a direct message as I might send this thread to other people. You don't have to answer my questions, those are really just for suggestions.


I think Linux is kinda nerdy but honestly that was one of its major draws for me... I love being a nerd and wanted to broaden my nerd horizons.  I don't think it's hard, Ubuntu anyway... I think it helps to be at least "okay" with computers but you don't have to be a computer genius or anything at all.  I would definitely recommend it to anybody as a good alternative to Windows.  ^^  I prefer it to Windows overall, it's cleaner, more secure, more customizable, and it's free.  And there's a lot of great stuff that I really appreciate... for example, the terminal might seem kind of scary at first, but it's so easy to just punch in "install [insert program here]" and it does it for you.  So yeah anyway, I'm a girl who has had largely good experiences with Linux, and I plan on exploring it even more in the future!

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## meng

Well although I'm not a woman, my wife is (gasp!). She doesn't get the choice of what to use at home (it's all Linux) or what to use at work (it's all Windows).  She doesn't find Ubuntu that much different from Windows in terms of intuitiveness; it's certainly no LESS intuitive than Windows. But neither does she concern herself much with issues of OS installation or maintenance. So between us we satisfy the gender stereotypes with respect to computer use.

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## RIT_girl

Just a college girl throwing her opinion in the mix. And hey, I got my ex-boyfriend to run intrepid, and I run hardy and eeebuntu. 

*Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?*
Yes and No, its not hard once you have the installation CD, and a tutorial, but there isn't a support hotline I can call aside from a nerd friend. That is what scared my little sister (16) away, she didn't want to be be stuck if I wasn't there. 

*Do you find Linux hard to use?*
There is a learning curve, which people forget with windows. And you have to read about how to do something, which no one likes. And I have a habit of deleting important things, so I end up re-installing more often than I should. 
*

Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?*
Yes, I'd have help from my computer engineering friends, but 90% I figured out on forums. 

*Does it met my needs?*
Except for matlab and itunes, I'm pretty happy. Open office conversions are a pain, but people are becoming more apt at using them, so its getting better. 

*
Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?*
I didn't mind vista, but I prefer free. I know you pay for what you get, but so far I'm pretty happy. And while everyone is bitching about windows, I just smile. 



I think these apply to anyone who is not comfortable with doing something different, not just women  :Smile:  We can be just as geeky, we just don't show it.

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## Famke

I like the idea, cool!

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## Velvet_Man

Well I'm not a woman, but I certainly had to contend with this issue with my wife when I decided to install Ubuntu on our laptop.

The laptop is old and was just getting too slow to tolerate anymore, so I wiped Windows XP and installed Ubuntu. Although the initial install was simple (actually quite painless compared to any Windows install I've ever done), there were a lot of little things that wouldn't work (wireless internet, DVD/MP3 playback and Brasero CD burning software kept freezing (reported the bug and it's since been fixed)).

So since I was a linux noob, it took me about two weeks of searching these message boards to get everything working. Since then my wife has come to like linux, and she even uses it a lot more than she uses our XP desktop, but when I mentioned putting Linux on the desktop she freaked out. So even though she likes Linux and uses it frequently now, she still doesn't seem to trust it. Windows is like a comfort blanket for her. Just knowing it's in the house seems to make her feel better.

I hope that helps.

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## lisati

> um... seriously? The broadband is slow ^&^%$(*ing slow in New Zealand that no one would dare waste their bandwidth on something that might not even be worth it.


WTF? I live in NZ within easy walking distance of an ADSL2+ telephone exchange, and although it is slow compared to some places round the globe, my connection speed is somewhat better than that of some of other forum users....
I just checked my speed at http://www.consumerspeedtest.org.nz/ - my download speed showed about 790 kB/sec and upload speed showed about 96 kB/sec. This is way better than dial-up, and is adequate for most of my needs.

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## Guilden_NL

> WTF? I live in NZ within easy walking distance of an ADSL2+ telephone exchange, and although it is slow compared to some places round the globe, my connection speed is somewhat better than that of some of other forum users....
> I just checked my speed at http://www.consumerspeedtest.org.nz/ - my download speed showed about 790 kB/sec and upload speed showed about 96 kB/sec. This is way better than dial-up, and is adequate for most of my needs.


When I read that comment, my immediate thought was "why would a complete noob download? Nobody other than beta testers (like hard core Linux folks) downloads Windows.  They install from a DVD."

I have anywhere from 6-10 DVDs of the latest Ubuntu that I give to people to try out.  If they tell me they are using wireless, then I offer to set it up for them on LiveCD, just as I would most likely have to do with the latest Windows on a clean install.

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## momosan

> Assuming you're a woman...
> 
> - Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?


No.  I've been using Unix since I was 13 (I'm 28 now), and the moment I got a computer that could support Linux (my family always had older computers than other people had, and I generally only had a computer of my own if everyone else upgraded and left me the old ones), I jumped into it.  There were some slight difficulties at first, but nothing too awful, and years of practice have made it easier.




> - Do you find Linux hard to use?


No.  I find it much harder to use systems that lack the transparency of Linux.  I have far more trouble understanding supposedly "easier" systems, because they all seem to have too much abstraction to them.  I can't see how they work.  And if I can't see how something works on a low level, I can't figure out how to use it on a high level.  I find linux easy _because_ I can go in and look at exactly and precisely what is happening and how it all connects to each other, and don't have to use this interface like on some systems where behind the interface seems like a formless and confusing void.  But I'm pretty aware this makes me strange.




> - Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?


I once had someone (a middle-aged woman, actually) help me with a laptop installation but other than that I've mostly been doing things on my own.  Right now I mostly figure things out on my own.  If I can't figure it out, I look on the net.  If I can't figure it out there, I ask a friend.  (Most of the friends who help me are also female, and between the ages of 30 and 60.  One of them has a boyfriend who's also a linux geek, but I don't ask him stuff any more than I ask her stuff.)




> - Does it meet your needs?


Yes, especially now that wine lets me use almost all of the very few programs I was keeping Windows around for.  And they uniformly run better on wine.




> - Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?


Oh gods yes.  I'm too poor to afford Vista.  With linux I can put it on anything from the piece-of-crap computer I got for $30 at the local thrift store to the more modern computer I just built from scratch, and get a system I can actually use.  




> Also, don't just answer the questions, what I'm looking for is an overview of what you think about Linux. How much *** does it kick? Is it really that "nerdy" and "hard" as people claim it is? Would you recommend it to other women as a good alternative to Vista? ... just write about your experience and how you found it compared to Windows - you could also write a direct message as I might send this thread to other people. You don't have to answer my questions, those are really just for suggestions.


Most of the people I know who use linux are nerds, but it doesn't have to be just for nerds.  I have a spare computer (that $30 one) running in my house and when other women who go on about how hard computers are (I know exactly what you mean by them) come over, they sometimes use it without even realizing it's linux or knowing what linux _is_.  They don't have any more trouble adapting to it than they do to Windows as soon as they get past the unfamiliarity.  And most of them don't even know what an operating system is.

Even so, if I talk to them about it, they think I must be smarter than they are (I'm not) to be able to install linux.  Most people buy computers with Windows on them already.  I'm guessing if they bought the sort of computer that comes with linux pre-installed, they wouldn't even _notice_ that it's supposed to be harder and only for smart nerdy types.  Or if they bought a computer and had someone who's unafraid to use an install disk, install it for them.  (But it'd be good to install it in front of them to show them how relatively simple it is.)

What _really_ fascinates people though is the cost-saving aspects.  The fact that you can use linux on cheap computers, and go to these software repositories and find all kinds of software free on the Internet that on Windows you'd have to be paying for and far more cautious about downloading.  I keep trying to encourage them by telling them that linux is getting more and more user-friendly.  (And I have a strong Ubuntu bias in that regard, especially because of the utter dependency nightmare of upgrading when you have an RPM-based system.)  And that it's for anyone from people who just want to _use_ their computer, to people who want to get in and see how it works -- but that if you suddenly _need_ to go in and see how it works, you have more of a chance than with other systems.

I also try to explain how a lot of this stuff gets easier the more you get used to it.  I wasn't _born_ taking computers apart, I learned that gradually, and the same is true of linux.  I know there's some linux elitists out there who _want_ linux to be only for hardcore geeks and do a lot to perpetuate that image, but seriously just because a lot of OSes are messed-up and user-friendly doesn't mean that an OS _has_ to be messed up the moment it becomes user-friendly.

So that's my take on it all.  I love linux, and like you I know a lot of women my age and older who are terrified of it for some reason.  But I've found they've gotten _less_ terrified the more I've shown them.  I ought to actually show them an install one day (and let them try it themselves) just to show how user-friendly even _that_ has become lately.  And I think linux is _especially_ useful for people who just flat-out can't afford Windows.  Unfortunately lower income seems to often go with less exposure to stuff like this.  But it shouldn't have to.

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## infocop411

(does it matter if It a woman thinking it's hard, I know some men think "windows works, why try windows.)

ask them what is hard, have them try it, maybe automate it a little more.
(example being more sh scripts & desktop icons, extra packages installed (my example for a friend was pidgin-facebookchat.) show them what I'm doing.

A doorknob is hard, if you haven't seen one & tried opening it.

A better question is "why do you want to use linux?"
or "what can this do better?" answering these questions along the way & helping them. (where is the windows forums?) pointing out that linux has twice the capacity to help. (not counting paid help or call centers with a different accent that for you is hard to follow.)

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## el.norman

well, watch a video of linux being used...

it make it looks more easier

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## XanII

Wife uses Ubuntu as her sole system. She didnt have a choice as XP is going out of business slowly but surely as is her old Dell laptop. Custom built her a cheap but powerfull PC with ubuntu.  :Smile:  

Plenty of anger over small things she is used to but generally she uses it fluently, as should any non-computer illiterate person. Its more about wether she is is her 'windows comfort zone' or not. now she is not and it makes her irate but she will live. Told her that she can buy Vista if she likes but she will not get any support for that software.  :Capital Razz:

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## ranch hand

My wife bought this new box with Vista pre-installed.  It took me 3 days to know we had to change to something else.  It took her 3 weeks.

As we were coming from a 1998 model computer (under Win98) Hardy was a huge improvement and easier to maintain.

Basically my wife is not a geek and there is no need to be.  I do not really understand the question because this is easier than Vista all the way around.

We would not switch back unless MS decides to PAY us to use their products.

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## burntresistor

Linux can be "hard" fuppes was the bane of my existence for weeks cause I couldn't figure out the error. Whatever trouble I get from linux it doesn't match the hassles I was getting with windows XP. I got the blue screen of death too often. Linux hasn't crashed

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## Little Bit

I would loan her this computer and let her be amazed at its ease and speed. My signature is a link to a little article I wrote with suggestions on getting women and girls into Linux. Briefly:

1. She needs to have her own reasons to seek a change. If it ain't broken, it don't need fixin'. So don't push it. But if she has a reason to change because her computer is slow, rebellious, BSOD, whatever, then it's just a question of _what_ to change _to_. For most people, it's Mac because they don't even know about Linux or they imagine that it's too geeky. 

2. Letting her use a sweet simple Linux (my introduction was on a super-simple Ubuntu/LXDE remix) will go farther than any technical explanations of why Linux is superior. Let her own experience on a borrowed laptop demonstrate Linux's simplicity and power. 

3. If you are one of those techno-people who are always tweaking and fine tuning your computer, she may infer that you are "fixing it" because it needs fixing! Most people just don't know how highly customizable and configurable Linux is. You "tweak" it because you _can_ (and because it's fun). But she doesn't know that. So don't be tweaking and fine-tuning and describing all the changes and improvements you've made, or she may imagine she'll have to do the same thing!

4. To her the computer may be "just a tool." She doesn't mind maintaining it (and she's probably used to maintaining Windows anyway with antivirus updating and scanning and defragging and all that), but she doesn't want to know every detail of how it works and why. She wants it to "just work."

5. Offer her the _simplest_ option for any changes she wants to make or updates needed - even if it's the command line. I find Synaptic really easy to follow, or Add and Remove. Gimmie is a nice tool for simplifying the desktop too. _She wants to run applications, not her operating system_. For her, it's not the OS that matters, it's whatever works quickly and effectively with a minimum of fuss and bother.

The article goes into a little more detail and I hope you'll anjoy reading it!

Amy

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## stringarray

*- Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?*

I've been around since 1994, so yes, I had the bad luck of owning hardware that linux didn't like for years and years. I tried redhat, mandrake, mandriva, corel linux, and the installation always had problems, some hardware did not work (the mouse, or the monitor), I'm even suspicious of a malfunction in a monitor being caused by a linux install intent. I had more luck with mandrake some years ago, I needed to install usb modems (ADSL) and that was hard. And finally ubuntu seemed to really work and did not ask what was the exact model of every bolt ans screw in my machine. 

*- Do you find Linux hard to use?*
I find really annoying that I need to use the commandline for everything. I can't delete files because I don't have permissions, so it's commandline sudo all the time. Look, If I have to type "sudo" for everything, just treat me as someone with permissions already, I AM ROOT ok?

*- Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?*
Yes, all the time. I'm expected to know lot of things from the beginning, but I just don't, for example the directory structure. Ok, I installed a program, where is it? I want to run it. Coming from windows, it is hard to find the equivalent to trivial operations sometimes.

*- Does it meet your needs?*
I still need windows for visual studio, I code in visual C++, I would love to code in linux but trying to install a new IDE and use it after checking-out some c++ code proved too hard. It was problem after problem, I can't spend weeks to just check-out some soft compile and run it, just to see if I find it a nice project to contribute to. 

*- Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?*
I use it everyday at home, but my professional needs tie me to windows, even if I don't like it. I would like to have a good IDE with debugging and understand clearly the steps to compile and debug C++ code, and no, not from the command line and not using vi, for chrissakes.  :Mad:

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## macogw

> *- Do you find Linux hard to use?*
> I find really annoying that I need to use the commandline for everything. I can't delete files because I don't have permissions, so it's commandline sudo all the time. Look, If I have to type "sudo" for everything, just treat me as someone with permissions already, I AM ROOT ok?


You can create a launcher (right click somewhere on the desktop) and set it to have the command "gksu nautilus" to get a button that opens a root file browser.



> *- Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?*
> Yes, all the time. I'm expected to know lot of things from the beginning, but I just don't, for example the directory structure. Ok, I installed a program, where is it? I want to run it. Coming from windows, it is hard to find the equivalent to trivial operations sometimes.


You can usually just type the program name (all lowercase) in the command line (note: type the first few letters and hit <tab> and it'll list programs that start with that).  Or hit alt+f2 and type the program name.  The $PATH variable makes it so that you don't need to know the exact path to the binary.


> *- Does it meet your needs?*
> I still need windows for visual studio, I code in visual C++, I would love to code in linux but trying to install a new IDE and use it after checking-out some c++ code proved too hard. It was problem after problem, I can't spend weeks to just check-out some soft compile and run it, just to see if I find it a nice project to contribute to.


C++ eh?  I believe Eclipse has a C/C++ plugin.  Though really, I think a lot of us just use a text editor for our programming, not a full-blown IDE.




> *- Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?*
> I use it everyday at home, but my professional needs tie me to windows, even if I don't like it. I would like to have a good IDE with debugging and understand clearly the steps to compile and debug C++ code, and no, not from the command line and not using vi, for chrissakes.


Not from the command line....meaning "no gdb"?

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## etali

- Do you find Linux hard to install, setup and configure?

I've been using Linux off and on since the late 1990s, and it's gotten a LOT better, but even now I still run into hardware problems.  I had a nightmare with a graphics card last time I installed Kubuntu, and I've had lots of trouble with wireless too.

The actual installer is perfectly simple to use, and has been for several versions, it's just the hardware support that makes it more troublesome than Windows.

- Do you find Linux hard to use?
That depends....For web browsing, email, IM, simple document editing, it's really easy to use.  I think someone who only wants to do that sort of thing would be quite happy.

It's the more 'power user' types that I think would run into problems.  I've found that I've needed to build a lot of other apps from source, and I've had a lot of trouble with specialist apps that are only available under Windows and don't get on with WINE.

I've been using Linux off and on since the late 90s, and I have a lot of experience with servers, so I'm not command line phobic or anything.  These days Ubuntu doesn't really demand the command line for much (unless things go really wrong), so I don't think that should be an issue for the average user.

- Have you had someone install it for you or help you out to do stuff?

I am the only Linux user I know, and have been for most of my Linux life (I briefly worked in tech support with a couple of other Linux geeks), so I did all my learning via Google, a big Linux book, and forums.

- Does it meet your needs?
For servers, yes.  For some programming work, as a nice stable, low resource usage machine, yes.

For anything else, no.

I need some Windows only apps for my job, and they don't run well under WINE.  Also, I'm a gamer, and the games I want just aren't available for Linux.

I run several machines at home (one Ubuntu, one Xubuntu), and a CentOS server.  I also have a DSL memory stick I carry with me for emergency usage.  My netbook, though, runs XP, and my home system runs Vista.

- Would you consider it a good alternative to Vista?
It depends.  For a gamer who wants DirectX 10 / DirectX 11 and Games for Windows Live + the ability to play all their favourite MMORPGs, no.

For someone who just wants YouTube, Facebook, and IM, definitely.

My niece didn't even notice when her computer got upgraded from Win 98 to XP, or from XP to Vista (she has no concept of what an OS is), so I think Ubuntu would be ideal for her.

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