# The Ubuntu Forum Community > Ubuntu Community Discussions > Resolution Centre >  out of control..

## toupeiro

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...45#post8179045

Seriously. What is up with the mods lately? WAY out of control!

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## KiwiNZ

Details please

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## bodhi.zazen

> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...45#post8179045
> 
> Seriously. What is up with the mods lately? WAY out of control!


Please read the terms of service :

http://icanhascheezburger.com/terms-of-use/

Specifically, under #5 :




> Content on the Websites is provided to you AS IS for your information and personal use only and may not be downloaded, copied, reproduced, distributed, transmitted, broadcast, displayed, sold, licensed, or otherwise exploited for any other purposes whatsoever without the prior written consent of the respective owners.


So the material is copyrighted and unless you can provide us with proof of written permission we do not allow you to post copyrighted material on these forums.

Yes the give permission for you to use the image on a personal blog, but this is not a personal blog site.

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## toupeiro

> Please read the terms of service :
> 
> http://icanhascheezburger.com/terms-of-use/
> 
> Specifically, under #5 :
> 
> 
> 
> So the material is copyrighted and unless you can provide us with proof of written permission we do not allow you to post copyrighted material on these forums.
> ...


... LOOK AT THEIR SITE, THE CODE IS THERE TO LINK IT!!!!  THEY are the owners of that content once THEY host it and THEY don't want ME making any money off THEIR work.  I Swear I never got a cent for that picture!

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## toupeiro

If you plan to remove every single linked lolcat picture, I hope you've doubled your staff... Seriously, thats the most ridiculous supportive statement I've seen to defend a mod going too far.  You guys are thick as thieves.

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## toupeiro

and finally if you look at the terms overall, instead of knitpicking one comment out of it to stand alone, you will see that image linking is one of the sites primary services, so long as its not being done for personal profit.

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## toupeiro

And just to make sure this point is thoroughly flogged:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...ghlight=lolcat
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...=lolcat&page=2

Both of these threads are dedicated to lolcats with several people posting them, including moderators.  

If you want to make an example out of someone, you should make pretty darn certain that example can stick.

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## KiwiNZ

A word of advice , try some manners

This appeal will get no further consideration until you do so .

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## toupeiro

Fair enough.

Keep in mind that courtesy should always work both ways.  If a mod completely overlooks every other image link and singles out mine, and other mods blindly defend it before any research is done, I think my venting was pretty justified.  You don't like being yelled at by an upset forum member, and I don't like being patronized and singled out for being rightfully frustrated about something.  I'll calm down if you stop, then maybe we can get back to the issue at hand?

Thank you.

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## toupeiro

> Fair enough.
> 
> Keep in mind that courtesy should always work both ways.  If a mod completely overlooks every other image link and singles out mine, and other mods blindly defend it before any research is done, I think my venting was pretty justified.  You don't like being yelled at by an upset forum member, and I don't like being patronized and singled out for being rightfully frustrated about something.  I'll calm down if you stop, then maybe we can get back to the issue at hand?
> 
> Thank you.


by research, of course, I am referring to the fact that links from this site are rampant on ubuntu forums.  Sorry for the multiple posts, but as I can't go back and edit in this sub-section, I have no other choice than do to this.

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## KiwiNZ

Please provide links on the LOL cats site that supports your stand point and I will look at it .

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## toupeiro

ok, here it goes:

point 1:  icanhazcheezburger.com freely provides links to their hosted images:  simply go to the main website, and look at any of the featured pictures on the first page.  for each of them, you will find a URL to embed the image.  They also provide direct links to add to sites such as digg, facebook, twitter, reddit and so on.  Almost every single major forum on the internet uses lolcat links as a form of good natured humor to be shared with other posters usually surrounding a different topic.  Case in point, the lolcat I choose "There has been a failure on the internets", a lolcat that was in fact linked on this forum by other users in multiple threads in reference to a poster talking about slow repository download speeds in Portugal. It was linked in good spirit and humor, and received well by other posters.  Lolcats are a SFW, socially accepted way of sharing humor on the internet internationally.

point 2: Terms of use on icanhazcheezburger.com

an image embed, which is an approved form of sharing information by the website, is not a distribution by a form of medium, thus compliant with section 3-A of the terms of use.  

The image was not modified and re-distributed, it was linked, thus compliant with section 3-B.  The images was accessed through an image imbed of the URL, which is an accepted means of access, thus compliant with Secion 3-C.  

The image was linked in good humor and on topic, referencing a conversation where the quote was applicable to the comment in a friendly and humorous undertone, and was not done for commercial use or for personal profit, thus compliant with section 3-D.

I used no automated system to acquire, or post the link, thus compliant with secion 3-E.

I did not break any local, national, or international laws by linking this image, thus compliant with section 3-F.

I did not impersonate anybody in the process of linking this image.  Section 3-F is compliant.

The image commented in parody on the internet using a cat, nobody was harassed, or felt harassed in the posting of the image. (the removal, is another story. .. more humor?)  Section 3-G compliant.

I hope lolcats don't go away because they provide great, at times therapeutic humor for many people, but if they do, then they do and I accept that.  3-H compliant.

I will not try to justify every point in their ToC, but I picked these because I believe linking an image would fall under their *general use* agreement as it is a standard service usable on their front page.  Section 5-D further supports this with the following statement:



> . You may *access Content*, User Submissions and other content only as permitted under this Agreement. Pet Holdings reserves all rights not expressly granted in and to the Content and the Websites.


 *My* use of their image, based on the way section 5 is worded in conjunction with the rest of the ToC, would imply personally hosting their material via resources outside of Icanhazcheezburger.com is what section 5 is more directed towards.  They are still in full control of all images by using a URL they provide, and can take them offline at anytime, which is also in compliance with their general terms of use section 3-F.  


This is all, of course, subject to my interpretation, but I didn't spend any time trying to twise anything to support my points.  This is how I took the ToC of their site at face value.

Finally, lolcats are a compliment to the social sections of ubuntuforums.org.  They are a mechanism used by many of your forum members to express themselves in good nature.  I will be the first to admit I can come off pretty smug at times.  I reread some things I write and I can see how people could take it that way.  Generally, I never mean to be smug or rude.  I am sarcastic by nature, but in good faith, I never do or say anything with the intention of hurting or belittling anybody on these forums.  I love being a part of them.  Lately, however, I think a lot of the moderation has been unnecessarily restrictive.  Some of my frustration in this thread was carrying more than this incident and that shouldn't have happened.  for that I do apologize, but I hope that:

1. you believe that this post was written in total sincerity

and 

2. that you don't make a decision about the material of topic based on either the perceptions moderators have of me, because that would be a damaging loss to the creativity of expression many of your forum members have by doing so.

Thanks for your time reading this lengthy post,

-T.

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## KiwiNZ

Thanks for that , I will look at this and get back to you. I will say their Terms of use are somewhat contradictory and confusing at first read so it may take a wee while.

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## KiwiNZ

This is the section of their terms of use that causes me problems with this issue

"
_5. Your Use of Content on the Website
In addition to the general restrictions above, the following restrictions and conditions apply specifically to your use of Content on the Websites._
_A. The content on the Websites, except all User Submissions, including without limitation, the text, software, scripts, graphics, photos, sounds, music, pictures, interactive features and the like (Content) and the trademarks, service marks and logos contained therein (Marks), are owned by or licensed to Pet Holdings, subject to copyright and other intellectual property rights under the law. Content on the Websites is provided to you AS IS for your information and personal use only and may not be downloaded, copied, reproduced, distributed, transmitted, broadcast, displayed, sold, licensed, or otherwise exploited for any other purposes whatsoever without the prior written consent of the respective owners. Pet Holdings reserves all rights not expressly granted in and to the Websites and the Content._
_B. You may access User Submissions solely:_

_For your information and personal use in accordance with these Terms of Service; and__As intended through the normal functionality of the Websites." 
_
Reading this gives me the indication that the posting of the image on this Website is not permitted under the terms of use with prior consentfrom Pet Holding.

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## toupeiro

> This is the section of their terms of use that causes me problems with this issue
> 
> "
> _5. Your Use of Content on the Website
> In addition to the general restrictions above, the following restrictions and conditions apply specifically to your use of Content on the Websites._
> _A. The content on the Websites, except all User Submissions, including without limitation, the text, software, scripts, graphics, photos, sounds, music, pictures, interactive features and the like (Content) and the trademarks, service marks and logos contained therein (Marks), are owned by or licensed to Pet Holdings, subject to copyright and other intellectual property rights under the law. Content on the Websites is provided to you AS IS for your information and personal use only and may not be downloaded, copied, reproduced, distributed, transmitted, broadcast, displayed, sold, licensed, or otherwise exploited for any other purposes whatsoever without the prior written consent of the respective owners. Pet Holdings reserves all rights not expressly granted in and to the Websites and the Content._
> _B. You may access User Submissions solely:_
> 
> _For your information and personal use in accordance with these Terms of Service; and__As intended through the normal functionality of the Websites." 
> ...


Personally I think this is splitting hairs, but the key word there is "subject" and "intellectual property".  Now ask yourself where this would come up?  it would come up if any other stipulations of general use were violated.  Ownership of this data was never in question, in fact, linking directly to them with their own unmodified image is a direct show of ownership.  

The information was received as is.  The information was not downloaded, copied, reproduced, distributed, transmitted, broadcast, displayed, sold, licensed, or otherwise exploited.  The information was *accessed* which is a clearly supported method of use as defined in several portions of the ToC.  It takes no account or membership to do this, it is a general access function of the website that can be freely done in accordance with their terms, which in  this case it was done in.  Accessing their images from an embedded URL they supplied qualifies as "normal functionality of the websites"

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## bodhi.zazen

This is not the first time this issue has come up, nor is it the first time the staff has reviewed the terms and policies of lolcats.

Both kiwi and I have quoted you the same section of the terms of service.

Our interpretation is that you are free to download the images for use on your won personal site, but that posting them on the Ubuntu site is a violation of the terms of service.

So :

1. If you are interested in discussing the issue further, please contact lolcats and ask for clarification of the terms of service and/or ask for written permission to post on these forums.

Until then, these images are not allowed.

2. Two wrongs do not make a right. We are a large forms and we do not review each and every post.

If you find lolcats images, please report them and we will remove them. We do not allow these images and we remove them when either we find them or they are reported.

Repeat violations usually result in warnings and /or restriction of your use of these forums.

Just because lolcats images are popular or just because you can find some if you search does not mean it is right or that you have permission to post them.

3. If you wish to help the staff with this issue, feel free to search these forums and report lolcats images.

I am sorry you disagree with the decision of the staff but I do not see our policies as changing any time soon and, as above, I would direct you to lolcats and their terms of service.

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## toupeiro

Actually, I think its way more clear that lolcats ToC has a MUCH bigger problem with downloading.  You guys are ignoring the giant elephant in the room here.  the url used to access the images was provided as a function of their website.  Seriously, how much closer to "general use" and "normal functionality of the websites" can you get?  If you (ubuntuforums mods) dont want lolcats linked, then make that clear to ALL members.  I asked to be a mod here before and was turned down (wonder why) but if you want to find lolcats posts, I really don't see that as my job to report them, sorry.  Especially since I greatly disagree with how this issue was handled.  In fact, if there were some escalation point above this process, I'd be using it right now, up to and including involving Canonical.

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## toupeiro

... and yes, I will be contacting the owners of that website about this issue.

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## toupeiro

> ... and yes, I will be contacting the owners of that website about this issue.


(add an edit feature here please)  which quite frankly if you are so concerned about interpretation of someone elses ToC on ubuntuforums behalf, a *forum admin* should be doing, not a forum member.

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## bodhi.zazen

Just because you use a url does not mean you have permission to post the url on  the ubuntu forums, you need to read the terms of service.

Your question has been asked and answered and our position on the issue has been explained.

You are free to do as you wish on your personal web site or blog or your personal forums.

The Ubuntu forums are not your personal site and you are not free to post lolcats pictures here.

As long as you are wanting to use the Ubuntu forums, please do not post lolcats pictures without written permission as outlined in there terms of service , item #5 from the lolcats site.

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## toupeiro

> Just because you use a url does not mean you have permission to post the url on  the ubuntu forums, you need to read the terms of service.
> 
> Your question has been asked and answered and our position on the issue has been explained.
> 
> You are free to do as you wish on your personal web site or blog or your personal forums.
> 
> The Ubuntu forums are not your personal site and you are not free to post lolcats pictures here.
> 
> As long as you are wanting to use the Ubuntu forums, please do not post lolcats pictures without written permission as outlined in there terms of service , item #5 from the lolcats site.


Now you are in direct contradiction with everything you have mentioned before.  So you are saying if they come back saying I have permission, you're telling me I don't?  Do YOU ever read ubuntu's terms and conditions, or do you just manipulate them to fit your positions when you see fit?  I realize that staff admins are all volunteers, but that doesn't make you all knowing and always correct.  It doesn't make you right. I'm doing this by the book, not only for my behalf, for this community's behalf.  As ubuntuforums COC clearly states.  THIS IS OUR COMMUNITY.

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## toupeiro

Sent to icanhazcheezburger webmasters:

Dear webmasters,

I'm writing you today in hopes to clear up what I consider to be a false interpretation of what your website General Use policies are to two forum admins on ubuntuforums.org

Amidst a thread in one of their subforums, I decided to embed a link to a lolcat with a quote pertinent to the subject we were talking about.  The URL used was acquired through your website using the mechanism you have provided all visitors of your site to use to link lolcat images.  Their issue is that by doing so, I have violated section 5.A and 5.B of your Terms of Use.  I protested that I did not violate these terms as I "accessed" the image through a normal function of the website, and cited 3.A through 3.H as well as 5.D to support that.  Not only that, but the fact that your images are use in good natured humor on thousands of forums across the internet of all sizes to do the exact same thing.  

I guess I am asking for two things which I am being told need to be answered by the ubuntuforums staff before lolcats will be allowed again on their site:

1.  Is viewing, by way of accessing an embedded url provided by icanhazcheezburger.com, a generally acceptable means of use by your company so long as it is in accordance with the rest of your terms and conditions?

2.  If I truly have misinterpreted your Terms and Conditions, then may I ask on the behalf of the ubuntu forums community, permission to use lolcat images on threads in ubuntuforums in accordance with the applicable terms and conditions defined by your website?

I think this can be chalked up to a misunderstanding on the mods behalf, but seeing as I find great enjoyment out of lolcats, as do millions around the world, it would be a great impact to forum communities across the internet if this  misunderstood interpretation were to be enforced.  If our mods are accurate in the matter, then please consider my request to allow ubuntuforums to access your content by way of embedding, which would satisfy their interpretations of section 5.A and 5.B of your terms and conditions.

I appreciate your time reading this email.  Thanks, and have a great weekend!

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## bodhi.zazen

> Now you are in direct contradiction with everything you have mentioned before.  So you are saying if they come back saying I have permission, you're telling me I don't? .


Please read my previous post :

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...4&postcount=16




> please contact lolcats and ask for clarification of the terms of service and/or ask for written permission to post on these forums.
> 
> Until then, these images are not allowed.

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## toupeiro

> From: 	Customer Service <contactus@cheezburger.com>
> To: 	Toupeiro <email address stripped out by me>
> Subject: 	Re: (Case 10099) ContactUs: Dear webmasters, I'm writing you today in hopes to clear up what I consider t...
> Date: 	10/30/2009 10:06:17 PM (31 Oct 2009 01:06:17 -0400)
> 
> 
> Hai, 
> 
> You are able to embed our pictures using the code that we provide,  
> ...


I hope this is satisfactory enough.

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## toupeiro

> I hope this is satisfactory enough.


I will also be happy to foward this email to any mod who wants to see it.

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## KiwiNZ

I did say their terms of use were  " somewhat contradictory and confusing" .However their email would seem to support your point of view. Your use of the image was correct and should not have been removed .

I apologize on behalf of the Ubuntu Forum staff for the misunderstanding.

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## toupeiro

No harm done.  In fact, one positive thing that can be taken is that its one less grey area at least with one very heavily linked site on many forums that you have to worry about in the future.  Thank you for the opportunity to pursue this and clear up any confusion.

Sincerely,

-T.

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## bodhi.zazen

> I hope this is satisfactory enough.


Thank you for obtaining permission.

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## toupeiro

> Thank you for obtaining permission.


I always had permission.  I'm pretty sure thats what their email implied.

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## bodhi.zazen

In follow up, I have discussed this issure with the staff as well and I hope this will result in more consistent moderation.

Please understand, we are a large forums and our focus is Ubuntu support. As such, we tend to be conservative on these issues as we do not with to have the forms closed for issues such as this.

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