# The Ubuntu Forum Community > Ubuntu Community Discussions > Resolution Centre >  Moderator/Admin Abuse

## Beamerboy

OK, so it is alright to spam Apple products in Cafe but when I start a thread about how cool Vista is, I get infraction points (immediately) and then the thread gets moved and closed, by the very Admin I asked to move the Apple thread which was in exactly the same manner as my Vista thread?

This is blatant abuse, what is this place turning into?

One rule for mods/admins and another for everyone else?  one rule for Apple products and another for Microsoft?

I am disgusted.

Paladine

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## jdong

Admins: relevant thread is http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...83#post3317283


The thread sounded like it was flamebait, attempting to start an anti-Vista flamewar.

I understand you probably meant it as a sarcastic response to the influx of Apple threads.

I need more time to think about this situation.

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## KiwiNZ

The thread was posted as he requested that we get rid of the Ipod thread in the Cafe and was declined. 
he didnt agree with the decision and had what I would describe as a tantrum . 

It clearly stated in the Ipod thread why it would not be moved .






> Admins: relevant thread is http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...83#post3317283
> 
> 
> The thread sounded like it was flamebait, attempting to start an anti-Vista flamewar.
> 
> I understand you probably meant it as a sarcastic response to the influx of Apple threads.
> 
> I need more time to think about this situation.

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## matthew

I would like to add, please read the "what's a troll" link in my sig. You were trolling, and you knew it. Your post was a deliberate attempt to cause controversy and rile people up. I'm completely amused that you are now acting as if you were wronged when called on it.

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## Beamerboy

> Admins: relevant thread is http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...83#post3317283
> 
> 
> The thread sounded like it was flamebait, attempting to start an anti-Vista flamewar.
> 
> I understand you probably meant it as a sarcastic response to the influx of Apple threads.
> 
> I need more time to think about this situation.


It wasn't flamebait jdong, I was merely proving a point regarding the double standards.  It seems it is ok for Apple viral advertising on the forums even when it is requested they are moved, but not ok for Microsoft products.

I did state in the irc channel before I posted, why I was posting the thread and even added to the thread that it was not a serious post.

I am very unhappy over this situation.  The admin in question has not only abused his position in the public forum, he has behaved in a totally unacceptable fashion on PM as well, threatening and attempting to intimidate me  with his "position".

As I said to you on IRC, I won't post PM's to anyone as I do respect privacy, but I am sure the relevant people are able to access these PMs if there is a need for an investigation.

In my opinion, it is totally unacceptable to allow viral advertising for Apple and then give infractions and remove posts if someone does the same for Microsoft products.  That sort of behaviour is not becoming of what I expect from the staff running this community, frankly I am disgusted.

I would appreciate if there was a full discussion on this issue and the infractions removed.

Regards

Paladine

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## jdong

The Apple threads had relevant contents to the products being discussed. Your Vista thread did not have any such substance.

I was unaware of the previous request to close the Apple threads and at this point stand behind the original decision.

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## Beamerboy

> The Apple threads had relevant contents to the products being discussed. Your Vista thread did not have any such substance.
> 
> I was unaware of the previous request to close the Apple threads and at this point stand behind the original decision.


Respectfully jdong, I beg to differ.  If you read the first post for the iPod thread you can see it is not so dissimilar to the first post in the Vista thread I created.

And my point still stands as far as I am concerned, it is not acceptable to allow Apple to be advertised on here multiple times a week but not allow other products the same.

I come here to read about Ubuntu, not Apple.  I find Apple as a company highly offensive.

Paladine

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## KiwiNZ

> Respectfully jdong, I beg to differ. If you read the first post for the iPod thread you can see it is not so dissimilar to the first post in the Vista thread I created.
> 
> And my point still stands as far as I am concerned, it is not acceptable to allow Apple to be advertised on here multiple times a week but not allow other products the same.
> 
> I come here to read about Ubuntu, not Apple.  I find Apple as a company highly offensive.
> 
> Paladine


Thats is fine , you dont like Apple products , you are entitled to  that opinion . We have 350,000 plus  members , what you are saying is that your likes are more important than those.
We serve all members not just  one .

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## matthew

Please post a link (or multiple) to the Apple thread(s). Just for my amusement. Thank you.

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## Beamerboy

> Thats is fine , you dont like Apple products , you are entitled to  that opinion . We have 350,000 plus  members , what you are saying is that your likes are more important than those.
> We serve all members not just  one .


You appear to be completely ignoring my point.  If it is ok to advertise Apple products on a GNU/Linux forum, it should also be acceptable to do the same for -any- product.  To give preference to Apple in these situations wreaks of hypocrisy.

It is nothing to do with what I think about Apple, it is everything to do with the endless threads saying how great Apple are in a forum for and about a GNU/Linux distro.  I do not understand how you continue to fail see the significance.

If there is such a demand for people to advertise Apple products, then open a new forum for them or offer Apple banner space, at least I (and others) can then avoid them by either turning on adblock of not seeing the threads in Cafe because they are sandboxed elsewhere.

Paladine

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## matthew

> You appear to be completely ignoring my point.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

This is now my third post in this thread. Please do not ignore me. I can either be a great help, or a great foe.

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## Beamerboy

> Pot. Kettle. Black.
> 
> This is now my third post in this thread. Please do not ignore me. I can either be a great help, or a great foe.


Was that yet another veiled threat?

Paladine

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## jdong

Ok, this is not about a Vista promotional thread. This is about you creating such a thread in apparent protest of a decision made by a Forum Councilman. We welcome discussions on both Vista and Apple -- there is no double-standard here.

If your Vista thread weren't created in close correlation with a Forum Council decision to not close the Apple thread as you requested, then you wouldn't have received an infraction and the thread would be open.


Also, I don't see any Vista launches in the news today.

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## KiwiNZ

> You appear to be completely ignoring my point. If it is ok to advertise Apple products on a GNU/Linux forum, it should also be acceptable to do the same for -any- product. To give preference to Apple in these situations wreaks of hypocrisy.
> 
> It is nothing to do with what I think about Apple, it is everything to do with the endless threads saying how great Apple are in a forum for and about a GNU/Linux distro. I do not understand how you continue to fail see the significance.
> 
> If there is such a demand for people to advertise Apple products, then open a new forum for them or offer Apple banner space, at least I (and others) can then avoid them by either turning on adblock of not seeing the threads in Cafe because they are sandboxed elsewhere.
> 
> Paladine


Would you like the following stopped as well 

Windows 
Logitec
Mercedes cars
Ford cars
Heinz 
Mattel
Sony 
Niintendo
Jockey


I make this list tongue in check to show a point .

Now isnt Linux about freedom of choice ?
Then surely that  freedom extends to the members being free to choose what they with to purchase of to discuss?

But maybe its a valid point that we create a hardware section similar to other OS talk

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## matthew

> Was that yet another veiled threat?
> 
> Paladine


No. It wasn't veiled at all. 

I am telling you that you can either learn to post according to the Forums Code of Conduct  or we can escort you out. This is the same as every other user, the overwhelming majority of whom are wonderful people who never give the slightest rise to accusation of trolling and never directly insult staff members for any reason whatsoever.

Give me evidence that your behavior is warranted, or be quiet. Otherwise, you will have severe problems with me.

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## jdong

> Was that yet another veiled threat?
> 
> Paladine


A bit hypocritical to be making threats at others then throwing down the flag at others, isn't it?

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## Beamerboy

> Ok, this is not about a Vista promotional thread. This is about you creating such a thread in apparent protest of a decision made by a Forum Councilman. We welcome discussions on both Vista and Apple -- there is no double-standard here.
> 
> If your Vista thread weren't created in close correlation with a Forum Council decision to not close the Apple thread as you requested, then you wouldn't have received an infraction and the thread would be open.
> 
> 
> Also, I don't see any Vista launches in the news today.


Jdong, you know me well, you also know I respect you.

There should be no "spam" of Apple or any other proprietary products in Cafe or any of the other forums on this board.  It goes against the very principles behind Ubuntu.

And no member of staff should ever be permitted to threaten and try to intimidate users with their "I am an admin and forum council member" card.  KiwiNZ claims I should respect him because of his position, this is not true, respect needs to be earned, it is not something granted unconditionally because you become a forum admin.  Forum admins are not faultless, they are perfectly capable of being wrong, and in this case, I believe KiwiNZ was wrong and abused his position.

Paladine

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## Beamerboy

> A bit hypocritical to be making threats at others then throwing down the flag at others, isn't it?


I haven't threatened anyone.  He said he could be a great foe, which is why I questioned whether or not it was a threat.

Paladine

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## jdong

It is not in the spirit of Ubuntu to limit discussion to only open source products, and not in the guidelines of the channel. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing proprietary products on these forums.

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## Beamerboy

> It is not in the spirit of Ubuntu to limit discussion to only open source products, and not in the guidelines of the channel. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing proprietary products on these forums.


I fail to see how "I am buying one" as the first post of a thread titled Wow Ipod Touch!!!! (or whatever the exact wording was) is an attempt at discussion.  To me it came across as nothing short of spam.

Paladine

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## matthew

> There should be no "spam" of Apple or any other proprietary products in Cafe or any of the other forums on this board.  It goes against the very principles behind Ubuntu.


I have read through the thread in question (which I found on my own, even though I asked you for a link). The iPod was not being "spammed," it was being appreciated by someone who liked it. That is appropriate in the Cafe, just as a thread about "I really like the new Lenovo ThinkPad T61" would be.

Your opinion is just that, yours. Others may not share it. That does not make them wrong.

Kiwi, in the thread, merely stated the same thing I am saying now, in different words. He was not out of line in any way.

I also read the chat logs from your #ubuntuforums rant on the topic. You obviously have some strong opinions on the topic. The administration here disagrees with you. You either need to learn to live with that, or walk away...or at least you might consider not posting when you are angry/upset/frustrated, etc.

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## Beamerboy

> I have read through the thread in question (which I found on my own, even though I asked you for a link). The iPod was not being "spammed," it was being appreciated by someone who liked it. That is appropriate in the Cafe, just as a thread about "I really like the new Lenovo ThinkPad T61" would be.
> 
> Your opinion is just that, yours. Others may not share it. That does not make them wrong.
> 
> Kiwi, in the thread, merely stated the same thing I am saying now, in different words. He was not out of line in any way.
> 
> I also read the chat logs from your #ubuntuforums rant on the topic. You obviously have some strong opinions on the topic. The administration here disagrees with you. You either need to learn to live with that, or walk away...or at least you might consider not posting when you are angry/upset/frustrated, etc.


Actually according to the rules of this resolution forum, I don't need to walk away, I can take it to the Ubuntu CC.  Please advise me on how I would do that.  I simply will not accept that it is OK for a staff member to threaten and attempt to intimidate users in PM.

Paladine

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## KiwiNZ

In post 14  I offered a compromise . Care to respond ?

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## matthew

> Actually according to the rules of this resolution forum, I don't need to walk away, I can take it to the Ubuntu CC.  Please advise me on how I would do that.  I simply will not accept that it is OK for a staff member to threaten and attempt to intimidate users in PM.
> 
> Paladine


Find the CC agenda wiki page. Put an item on the agenda. Wait for a meeting.

For the record, here is the iPod thread being discussed: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=543926

We also have the IRC logs saved and I'm sure Kiwi will save copies of all PMs.

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## KiwiNZ

Your next point of appeal is the Forum Council

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## Beamerboy

> But maybe its a valid point that we create a hardware section similar to other OS talk


My apologies I missed the last line.  I presume the above is what you are referring to?  Yes that would be an acceptable compromise.  However, I still feel I am owed an apology for your behaviour in PM.

I spend my entire life standing up for the rights of others and I am very well known for it, using you position as a means to try and intimidate others is nothing short of bully tactics and it is wrong (and goes against the CoC).

If you are willing to apologise for that behaviour, I am willing to drop the issue as a good faith gesture.

Paladine

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## KiwiNZ

errr I pointed out that I was a Council member as you said you were going to report me to the Forum Council.
I thought it only fair to advise you of that.

I also advised you that I was not prepared to allow you ito insult me. I will not apologise  for that . And I am considering additional action  but will wait until this issue is dealt with.




> My apologies I missed the last line. I presume the above is what you are referring to? Yes that would be an acceptable compromise. However, I still feel I am owed an apology for your behaviour in PM.
> 
> I spend my entire life standing up for the rights of others and I am very well known for it, using you position as a means to try and intimidate others is nothing short of bully tactics and it is wrong (and goes against the CoC).
> 
> If you are willing to apologise for that behaviour, I am willing to drop the issue as a good faith gesture.
> 
> Paladine

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## Beamerboy

> errr I pointed out that I was a Council member as you said you were going to report me to the Forum Council.
> I thought it only fair to advise you of that.
> 
> I also advised you that I was not prepared to allow you ito insult me. I will not apologise  for that . And I am considering additional action  but will wait until this issue is dealt with.


I did not insult you.  You PM'd me saying I should respect you, I explained that respect needs to be earned and is not granted by default.  Your response to that was to threaten to ban me on the back of stating you were an Admin and Forum Council member.

It is my opinion, that the correct response to me stating I intended to report you, would have been to advise me of the correct route to make a complaint, not to threaten to ban me.

If you fell I "insulted" you please feel free to post the PM where I did so.

I confess to calling you a moron on irc and I apologised to the channel for doing so as it was reactionary and uncalled for.  You were not there and therefore I could not apologise to you directly, however, I admit that was wrong and apologise for it now.

If you are willing to accept you also acted inappropriately in PM then we can get on with enjoying the forum instead of continuing this further.  Whether you intended to act in a threatening and intimidating manner or not, is irrespective, that is certainly how your message came across.

Paladine

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## jdong

Your escalation routes are to:

(1) Add this to the ForumCouncilAgenda and appeal to a formal Forum Council meeting
(2) Add this to the CommunityCouncilAgenda and attend a CommunityCouncil meeting.

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## Beamerboy

Well I will give this thread 24 hours to run its course and give KiwiNZ a chance to apologise.  However, if he feels he is unable to make that apology, I will have to take this further as indicated by jdong above.

Incidentally, it might be useful to update the guidelines at the top of this forum, there is no reference to the forum council meetings, merely a reference to the Ubuntu Council meeting.  It would probably also be useful to link to where the relevant agendas are in the same guidelines.

Paladine

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## Beamerboy

KiwiNZ, if this should go before the relevant council meetings, I hereby formally request your permission to include our PMs as evidence in those meetings.  I ask because I will not post private messages without the consent of other party as I have a very sincere respect for privacy.

Paladine

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## jdong

> Incidentally, it might be useful to update the guidelines at the top of this forum, there is no reference to the forum council meetings, merely a reference to the Ubuntu Council meeting.  It would probably also be useful to link to where the relevant agendas are in the same guidelines.
> 
> Paladine



The statement in reference from the forum header:



> 5. If the resolution has not come to an agreement by both sides the thread starter can escalate the issue to the Ubuntu CC and use their thread as reference.


Traditionally the escalation path has been directly to the Community Council agenda. This might be a clarification that we need to look over at a future FC meeting.

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## KiwiNZ

> KiwiNZ, if this should go before the relevant council meetings, I hereby formally request your permission to include our PMs as evidence in those meetings. I ask because I will not post private messages without the consent of other party as I have a very sincere respect for privacy.
> 
> Paladine


 
I wiill think about your request over the next 24 hours. 

However I want you to think over something.
You state that you are all about rights etc and the freedom of choice. Yet you want us to take away the freedom of choice from our members and only display subjects that you agree with or are comfortable with . You may not like Apple , Nike , BP etc etc , and that is your right . But others have no problems with them and that is their right.

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## Beamerboy

> I wiill think about your request over the next 24 hours. 
> 
> However I want you to think over something.
> You state that you are all about rights etc and the freedom of choice. Yet you want us to take away the freedom of choice from our members and only display subjects that you agree with or are comfortable with . You may not like Apple , Nike , BP etc etc , and that is your right . But others have no problems with them and that is their right.


I am not asking nor did I ask that people's right to post about Apple products be removed,  I requested the thread be moved to a more appropriate forum.  I personally don't think it is appropriate to post such threads in the cafe and as already offered as a compromise by yourself, I welcome the suggestion of generating a new subforum to deal with these types of posts.

I am an Ubuntu user and I do what I can to help other members of the community, I respect the job the admins and other staff do both here in the forums and in other areas of the community (such as launchpad and irc) so I certainly get no pleasure out of "coming to blows" (for want of a better phrase) with members of the administration.

So your points are taken on board and I hope some serious consideration is given to providing a subforum as suggested.  Thanks to the other staff for getting involved in this thread, I don't see it as a particularly negative thread as it was discussed in an adult fashion and  hopefully we have all taken something positive out of it.

Paladine

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## Beamerboy

Well KiwiNZ, I have given you much longer than 24 hours to either apologise or give me permission to use the PMs as evidence in a complaint to the relevant community councils, you have done neither.

As such I see I have no choice other than to formally bring up a motion to have you removed from the UbuntuForums administration and forum council due your treatment of users.

I gave you plenty of opportunity to prevent this but you have been stubborn and refused to accept that you were wrong.

Paladine

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## KiwiNZ

OK yes I have taken a while to respond .That is because I wanted to give this situation thorough consideration before acting.

Also I have a busy life outside my VOLUNTARY work here, I am a Senior IT Manager for a large Organisation and own my Business, run a family and are involved in many community projects. I apologise , but frankly your issue just does not rank that high in my priorities .

My decision is 

1. No you cannot use private messages.

2. I stand by my decision not to move the thread and to keepit where other members wished it to be.

3. It was you that did not respect the decision of Forum staff as prescribed in the Code of Conduct.

4. It was you that insulted staff here and in other Forum related media ( IRC ) and as such I will take further action regarding that .

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