Help Others To Help Them Selves

[drubin]

Self-help or self-improvement refers to self-guided improvement—economically, intellectually, or emotionally—most frequently with a substantial psychological or spiritual basis.

Firstly, let me say I understand that it is against the CoC to say RTFM. This is a fact and I am not trying to suggest that this is how we should help people.

You can also show the user how to search the forums or tell them about the forum search utility. If you wish to remind a user to use search tools or other resources when they have asked a question you feel is basic or common, please be very polite. Any replies for help that contain language disrespectful towards the user asking the question, i.e. "STFU" or "RTFM" are unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

This post may or may not be relevant to other parts of these forums but I feel that it is very relevant to the PT(Programming Talk) sub-forum.

Far too often on these forums, I see an OP ask a question with regards to how to solve a problem before even asking them how far they have gotten on their own with the problem. Then some newbie programmer goes and posts the complete solution all nicely attached for download and copy-paste usage.

I have been wondering why people do this. I have come to the sad realization that people try to give the most complete answer to the OP's question in order to get some sort of thanks or ego boost. This might help the stats section on your profile page look more appealing, but it only hinders the OP's ability to learn from their problems and to become self-reliant. Furthermore, if an OP keeps receiving these type of 'handouts' and quick 'solutions', we will have given them our sanction that their methods of problem solving are acceptable and that we will continue to spoon feed them in the future.

I have no problem helping OP's with their homework assignments only if they are asking for a push in the right direction. I will NOT provide them fully functional versions of their programs. Most of the time I will not even attempt to run their code; rather, I'll comment on sections that I might be able to provide insight on.

Techniques for answering programming questions on the forums:

1. Learn how to ask questions and apply those similar techniques for answering them.
   
   • http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
   • http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/...-linux-forums/
2. Ask them to post what [code] they currently have and what [means] they have tried to solve the problem.
3. Point them to (a) specific man/doc page(s) on the topic(s) they are asking about.
4. Try and help them to correct THEIR code with out giving them a full solution.
5. If they have changed anything, have them repost their solution if it is not working.
6. Do NOT post working solutions if they have not put forth any effort on their own to solve the problem.

In short, help those to help themselves by not posting complete solutions to OP's problems.

EDIT:
Just to clarify this post was intended at the people that answer the questions not the people that ask them.

Also if you take not at my title it is NOT "Help those that help them selves" it is "Help those to help them selves" Ie help them to learn.

[digitalvectorz]

I agree with this. I think that it's more beneficial for users/up-and-coming programmers to take a general situation and change it to fit what their circumstances are. In no way should someone ever provide a user with a fully functional solution! That's bad practice on the part of the 'teacher' and it's bad learning practice on the part of the 'learner.'

If a situation requires you to post code, don't post code that can be copied and pasted as a 'one-stop' solution. Rather create code so that the use can see the idea of how a concept should work. In some cases, it's acceptable to be a little more specific with the examples provided, but I don't feel that there is any situation where it's acceptable to just hand someone a solution. For those who are students, that's worse than academic dishonesty. I feel that providing a complete solutions for those seeking help devalues one's integrity.

That's just my two cents.

-vectorz

[Kilon]

Sorry drubin but I do not agree with you.

Giving someone the complete solution is a a choice each poster can make and will make if he wants to. Giving the solution could mean that this person will move on to other problems inside his source code and make the whole process more bearable and fun.

Some people are hobbyists with no luxury of free time, being stuck to a problem to long ,will create frustrations and disappointment and finally be the reason why they will quit programming altogether. Maybe you would not much care to accommodate a lazy hobbyist programmer but I think that even a lazy hobbyist programmer can contribute. O course the person that want the complete solution may not be a lazy hobbyist , he may just want to finish the program and move on to something better.

Yes I agree that it may hinder his improvement but maybe it will motivate him on being more confident if he finally sees that the solution is not as hard as he though it may be. Or it may not hinder his improvement , it may be an opportunity to study a style different than his own and draw new conclusions as to the validity of his approach. In any way you cannot be certain for the ethics of each person through a forum, unless you have a big certain reason to believe that the person is wasting your time just by reading his question. If that is the case , then, you should not even reply.

This is my opinion.

[fiddler616]

Speaking as a beginner.....
I still agree with this.

Looking back, I've learned a LOT more from people who post explanations, not code. If you need a working program NOW, then have the guts to say so, and the Forumites will deal with you as they see fit. But otherwise just take the time to grok, not just learn.

The problem is that (like so many forum announcements/stickies/FAQs) I think you're preaching to the choir.

[bodhi.zazen]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. Every "teacher" and every "student" is unique, each of us has strengths and weaknesses.

I think there are 2 or 3 broad goals :

1. The Ubuntu forums is intended to be a welcoming community. There are times when a broad question is asked in which case it is appropriate to direct someone to reference material. "RTFM" is a tool, and as with any tool it can be used and misused. Appropriate use, IMO, is to direct someone to a reference but to remain available to help with any follow up questions that may arise.
2. I agree that self learning is the ultimate goal. We must guide our users to become self learners without making them feel in any way abandoned.
3. These forums are interactive. Yes there are times when it seems the search button should be utilized a little more. In this case, please politely answer the question and / or point out the results of a search. Again the whole point of these forums is in remaining polite and respectful.

There is a big difference between :

Answer 1 : RTFM.

Answer 2 : Use the search.

Answer 3 : This is a FAQ on these forums and you may find an answer faster by searching. In the mean time, here is a link [insert link]. If you have a specific question please ask for clarification.

[fiddler616]

Sorry drubin but I do not agree with you.

Giving someone the complete solution is a a choice each poster can make and will make if he wants to. Giving the solution could mean that this person will move on to other problems inside his source code and make the whole process more bearable and fun.

Programming is þe art of problem-solving--and if all þe problems are solved on þe Forums, what's left for þe actual programmer to solve?

Some people are hobbyists with no luxury of free time, being stuck to a problem to long ,will create frustrations and disappointment and finally be the reason why they will quit programming altogether.

I leave it at þe discretion of the posters to discern wheþer the OP is capable of solving his problem with guidance or a flat-out solution.

Maybe you would not much care to accommodate a lazy hobbyist programmer but I think that even a lazy hobbyist programmer can contribute. O course the person that want the complete solution may not be a lazy hobbyist , he may just want to finish the program and move on to something better.

He won't be able to handle 'someþing better' if he doesn't know how to do simpler programs.

(My two cents, at least)

[drubin]

Sorry drubin but I do not agree with you.

Every person is entailed to their opinion.

Giving someone the complete solution is a a choice each poster can make and will make if he wants to. Giving the solution could mean that this person will move on to other problems inside his source code and make the whole process more bearable and fun.

I have no idea for how long you have been programming for? nor do I have any idea your level of programming. But what I can say is that any Master Programmer (And I do not yet call my self one) would attribute their learning experience to figuring out the issues on their own with maybe a nudge in the right direction.

Some people are hobbyists with no luxury of free time, being stuck to a problem to long ,will create frustrations and disappointment and finally be the reason why they will quit programming altogether. Maybe you would not much care to accommodate a lazy hobbyist programmer but I think that even a lazy hobbyist programmer can contribute. O course the person that want the complete solution may not be a lazy hobbyist , he may just want to finish the program and move on to something better.

If people are doing this out for a hobby then I assume most of the fun would be working out the problem and finding a solution instead of Using a solution.

[LaRoza]

I agree, for certain audiences. Sometimes, people just need to get a script to do something, and giving the answer can be the best way. However, for those learning or with futures beyond a simple script for a single task, giving the code to copy and paste isn't very fruitful.

[drubin]

]The problem is that (like so many forum announcements/stickies/FAQs) I think you're preaching to the choir.

I wish I was! I just feel that often in this forum I just see the "here is the working" and then in the sig. "Please free to thank me for this useful post"

[73ckn797]

As a recent convert into the Linux/Ubuntu OS I will put my thoughts into this thread.

There are times that getting a code line to work out or directly fix a problem has/can be very helpful to the newbie. Some are more inclined towards the hobbyist level and others do desire to delve deeper into the system. That may be apparent immediately or after several postings. Some, like myself, do desire a little deeper understanding of what a CLI command is doing. At other times I only need a fix.

I have found many posts that recommend CLI use but have also learned that a new user could more benefit from being pointed in a more simpler direction where using menu selections and such would accomplish the same result. This would allow the casual user to get up and running without confusing them and having them dive immediately into the CLI environment. I realize there are times that the CLI has to be implemented and that is fine.

Some only want the fast fix and will not bother looking things up via the abundant help resources that are available. Search and community documentation are the newbie's best friend if they are made aware of those resources. At least in the Ubuntu forums I have found many who understand this. I have begun to do that when I see a new user posting and my experience can help that person. It can take a little time to discover these resources unless they are pointed out by those responding to the questions.

This is, after all, only computing and not a life or death situation that requires hard nosed tactics and boot camp training.

I thank all of the people who have made these forums a place of learning and also an ER for those problems needing more help. That especially applies to all in this thread. I recognize the user names of all, so far!