Just Give Me the Beans!
Kilon,Why Open source is all good and fluffy and giving the solution to a forum any worse?
Open source is exactly as it is. Open source. Working programs/code/ideas/etc. And it is all good.
Where it differs from giving the solution on a forum - giving a solution on a forum is giving an answer to a question asked ON the forum. If you find the solution to your problem in open-source code, you knew where to look and you did your own research to solve your problem.
-vectorz
Tea Glorious Tea!
Originally Posted by digitalvectorz
Well I approached this way because I though that the issue here was whether someone should be given a solution produced by someone else. I do not understand the deference between giving an answer to a question to the forum and finding a open source program which shares some code which interests you. In both cases you will be using someone else code, and maybe code you don't fully understand. At least that is what it leaded me to conclude that there is not much difference between open source and forum answer except the fact that the latter could be more specific to your needs.
Do you mean something else?
And it is not really hard to search sourceforge for related projects. As matter of fact it is easier to be given a ready solution by sourceforge than by this forum and maybe more quick unless of course what you searching for is very very specific and difficult to find.
Last edited by Kilon; November 9th, 2008 at 09:26 PM.
Just Give Me the Beans!
Kilon,
I don't think the point being made is trying to discourage others from using other people's code. That would be silly.
The point, rather, is discouraging people from posting 'solutions' to someone asking for help on the forums. If someone is resourceful enough to find a piece of open source code and to read through it to figure out their problem, then that's perfectly fine. That means that they've put forth the effort for using the resources available to figure out their problem for themselves.
We're not talking about what the person with the question does with the solution, we're talking about how the people answering the questions answer them.
If the user is resourceful enough to take advantage of someone who is willing to spoon feed them the code, then that's their moral dilemma. But when it comes to whether to post solutions or guidance, that, again seems to be the purpose of this post.
Tea Glorious Tea!
With the risk of tiring the people of the forum , I will have to say I disagree here. Finding source code and copy n paste in most cases is not resourceful or difficult or any form of challenge - effort. Not that I am against it , but I still do not get your point. It does nto mean that they will understand the source that they using or figure out the problem in any way. Source code usually comes with alot of comments , so it should not be too hard to find what you are looking for. In worst case scenario you either email the creator or chat with him to show you where is the thing you are looking for. And all these actions require only a limited amount of programming knowledge.
As I see it you either condemn any act of plagiarism or you do not . Open source or no open source will not much matter. Plagiarism is banned in Univerisites for example for the same reason that is discussed here, because it is cheating. Which i find it perfectly fine inside the realm of Universities, but in the real world where the result is all that matters , I do not think that we should force this way of thinking .
Everyone has the right to cheat , if their cheating does not harm other people . As a matter of fact I would not call it even cheating in this case.
Of course everybody has the right to not offer solutions as well. I have no problem with that either just try to understand what is the reasoning inside this ideology.
Last edited by Kilon; November 9th, 2008 at 10:25 PM.
Just Give Me the Beans!
With all do respect, Kilon, You're arguing a point that was not the point of the posted topic. Let me ask you this. If you really want to nitpick...if you REALLY want to stop the plagiarizing, etc...then don't program. Because everytime you use the commands: printf, scanf, cout, cin, print, etc. Technically, you are plagiarizing because those functions have an underlying code to them that are NOT your idea nor is it technically your code.
However, to speak to your question in a less atomic fashion - finding source code and copying/pasting it, whilst changing it to suit your needs, is resourceful because that signifies you know what you are looking for and you know where to look. You'd be surprised how many people don't bother to even look in sourceforge or anywhere else for answers to their solutions. So what you deem to be easy and non-resourceful is a step in the right direction for others.
As for me condoning plagiarism or not, That's putting words in my mouth. I've not mentioned anything about 'plagiarism.' I've tried to gear these posts around those responding to the questions, not around the questions/people asking the questions. I'm not against using code in the forums. I'm not against code being posted in the forums. There are exceptions to every rule. I am, however, against people freely and immediately giving code / solutions without the Questioner putting forth a concerted effort to figure the problem out for themselves.
And a note on the last statement: the questioner at hand is one asking a question about programming either a) for academic purposes, b) for self-development, and or c) just for the fun of programming.
Quad Shot of Ubuntu
It's got nothing to do with plagiarism at all. It's got to do with some people not showing any kind of effort at all at learning or solving their own problems.
I see an embarrassing number of queries here which show not the least trace of the posters having even tried to learn the basics.
Handing out snippets of working code is less than useless for those. Finding code in the repositories which performs the desired function or some close simile would be an own effort and also would contribute to their learning. Giving hints (but not finished code) to those people might be helpful, too.
I don't see how anyone would think that I ought to spend more time at solving their problem than they're willing to spend themselves.
Extra Roomy Joe
Let's define some short-hand terms.
By "good apple" I'll mean an OP who has intellectual integrity, works hard, wants to learn, and is willing to help others when she can. If given code, a good apple will study it carefully. By "bad apple" I'll mean an OP who lacks intellectual integrity, is lazy, will take code and never bother to try to learn from it, will cry 'Help me, it's URGENT!' before doing a google search.
I want to help the good apples, and I can care less what happens to the bad apples. Either they will learn to change their ways, or they will remain bad apples forever. I don't believe I have much power to change people's core personalities. If they are bad apples, they will probably stay bad apples, and my forum posts aren't going to transform them into good apples no matter what I write.
So I believe we should be focused on helping the good apples. That begs the question, "How do we tell good apples from bad apples?" My solution is to assume everyone is a good apple. My help will be the kind I'd hope to receive if I were asking a question, and hopefully would be helpful to the good apples. That help may very well include complete code.
My help may harm the bad apples. It might make them lazier. I'm okay with that. I'd rather live in a world where good apples float to the top and bad apples sink to the bottom. Their laziness will catch up with them. If I detect that they are bad apples, I'd simply stop posting. Some might think that my style of posting coddles the OP. On the contrary, I think I am giving a rather severe kind of help: it will help those who are good, and destroy those who are bad.
Last edited by unutbu; November 9th, 2008 at 11:13 PM.
Moco Java filled *untu
I really like this point and never thought to mention the differences. Open Source is the best way of learning to program you can read through their code and take what you need and modify to your needs.
The biggest difference is that you would have to do the research to find a utility/script to copy from and understand. My issue is that people ask can I have X and instead of pointing them to y's source code/docs and saying here is something similar you maybe able to learn from we change Y's code for the OP and post a working example for them. (ie no learning is done what so every)
To quote some one from the BTeam. "I will re-event every wheel on earth if it means I will learn/gain knowledge from it."(Slightly modified)
There is always more sides to every story
Yes the solutions(ie the full corrected version) should be posted! but by the OP and not the people trying to help them. This way the OP has learnt something and will be able to help others as well.
Moco Java filled *untu
This is the idea to promote learning if they need a quick fix there are other options like rentacoder or other comercial means to solve your issue with out the need of knowledge
This threads focus has changed from the original point. I don't do not want to get into what people are allowed and not allowed to ask here. My intention was at how people reply to those questions. This thread is directed at the seasoned/unseasoned programmers that answer the questions posted here.
Iced Almond Soy Ubuntu, No Foam
IMHO, the approach to how "complete" an answer should be depends on the person who is asking the question.
If it's obvious that the person asking a question has not done the basic research, or doesn't have the foundational knowledge to even begin solving their problem, then it seems most appropriate in my view that they should be directed to documentation or tutorials so that they can attempt a solution themselves.
On the other hand, if it seems that the person asking the question has put a fair amount of research and effort to solving their problem, but still can't hit the jackpot, then to provide a complete working solution is fine.
Also some posters are almost there, but keep snatching at thin air. For whatever reason, they just can't make the last little connection to a working answer. In such cases, I think a little tweak of their existing code to make it work is fine. Then they get it, instead of floundering for hours and learning nothing.
Sometimes, non-working example solutions which would work with some minor adjustments is appropriate also. I take this approach if the person seems to have done fair work on a solution, but the code provided is of such poor quality that even if the cause of their problem is solved, the program would still fail to work as a whole. In such cases, I will correct the cause of their problem, but leave the remainder of the code to be corrected by the OP.
Teaching is a situational and person-dependent exercise, and there aren't really hard and fast rules on how to answer questions. The key is, of course, to make the student learn; but forcing a student to run circles with only guidance but no solid answers, can be counter-productive.
Last edited by samjh; November 10th, 2008 at 08:14 AM.
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