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Thread: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

  1. #1
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    Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Dear Forum Visitors,

    For the past year Paragon has been working on a new version of Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0. NTFS for Linux 7.0 is a driver allowing Linux users to access (read and write) Microsoft NTFS file systems. With the new version, the driver has been significantly improved, and several bugs were fixed.

    The product is almost ready for market release and we want to offer you the Public Beta version. This is the first time that we've offered beta testing for this driver. We do it because we want to make Paragon NTFS for Linux a useful tool for every Linux user -- that is why we need your opinion about it.

    According to existing feedback, the main issue most users encounter when using our driver is with installation. So, if you choose to test the Beta version with us, please pay attention to the installation stage because it is important for us to make a driver that will support the most Linux distributions as possible.

    What we expect from you:
    1. Bug reports (though we hope that there won't be many). If you find a bug, describe with details how it can be reproduced by our developers. We need every detail, every step (even if it seems minor). Please specify your Linux distribution and Linux kernel version.

    2. Usability issues. We want to make the product as easy to use as possible. Write us with your suggestions on what you think we can improve upon or what should be changed. Make your suggestions both detailed and reasonable so we can understand what your concerns are as well as determine if possible to implement.

    To download the public beta version, please fill out a short web form.

    In addition, you can review the “How to install” readme file here.

    Our commitment to you: We will read your feedback in this thread very carefully. Please excuse (in advance) any perceived lack of replies to your posts. We won’t be able to reply to all of them, but we will do "summary" replies once or twice a week in this thread.

    PS. We value this forum's community members very much. That's why we selected you for our Public beta testing. In exchange for your help, we will be glad to provide the most active beta testers with NTFS for Linux Professional Edition free of charge.

    Thank you in advance and best regards,
    Paragon NTFS for Linux team.

  2. #2
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    30$ for something that we allready have with a truly free and open-source program? This sounds like Spam. Why should we buy your product and not use ntfs-3g, or even better not use NTFS at all?
    I just love it when you're being sarcastic --aks44

  3. #3
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Dear Steveway,

    Please note:
    1. We are going to provide NTFS for Linux 7.0 Personal Edition for free (for non-commercial use only);
    2. Our driver is much faster than NTFS-3g (write performance especially). You can check it.

    Best regards,
    Anatoly.

  4. #4
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Free in what sense? Free as in beer or free as in freedom?
    You know, Software-freedom is a very important thing for most of us, what garuantee do we have that your software does not do anything harmful and will be supported and developed on in the future? We only have your word, and while I don't want to decrease the value of your word, that is not enough.
    It's nice that we can have it for "free" and I'm positively suprised by your friendly answer but for people that decided on a free and open-source Operating-system it doen't really make sense to use a closed-source alternative of something that we allready got as a free and open-source variant.
    PS: Also, are there any side-by-side comparisions to show the speed improvements of your driver against ntfs-3g backed up by numbers?
    I just love it when you're being sarcastic --aks44

  5. #5
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Paragon. Why not improve on NTFS -3g? or make a windows ext* read / write?

    Alot of people have to duel boot to windows because of games and office compatibility issues (TA M$). Going the other way was more imperative..

    I like what you are doing, its just not needed. You can write open source and still sell M$ hacks..

  6. #6
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Why hassle the guy he is already offering the program free for non-commercial use. This is why commercial companies won't develop for Linux all they get is grief from the users.

  7. #7
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Dear Steveway,

    Thanks for your questions.

    Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 should be release as a closed-source (library) but free software. We have tested NTFS for Linux for different configurations (kernel versions 2.4.x or 2.6.x), and we can guarantee the absence of any file or volume corruption. We arrange this public beta testing to release bug-free, full-fledged, most-Linux compatible NTFS driver for the Linux community.

    it doen't really make sense to use a closed-source alternative of something that we allready got as a free and open-source variant.
    We would like to release our driver with two main advantages:
    1. Easy to install and use driver;
    2. High performance and stable driver.

    Also, are there any side-by-side comparisions to show the speed improvements of your driver against ntfs-3g backed up by numbers?
    According to Iozone utility (IO Zone Benchmark Program), our write performance is several times higher that NTFS 3G has (2 – 9 times, it depends on file sizes).

    Dear Pcjunkie,

    Why not improve on NTFS -3g? or make a windows ext* read / write?
    NTFS-3g is a user space driver not a kernel space (as ours). Kernel space drivers have higher performance than user space ones. Please note, Paragon has already EXT2/3 FS drivers for Windows and is going to release for Mac OS X in 2 months.

    Looking forward to hearing your feedback.
    Thanks in advance.
    Best regards,
    Anatoly.

  8. #8
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveway View Post
    Free in what sense? Free as in beer or free as in freedom?
    You know, Software-freedom is a very important thing for most of us, what garuantee do we have that your software does not do anything harmful and will be supported and developed on in the future?
    Steveway,
    Freedom doesn't matter for those who choose to trust their data to an undocumented blob of a filesystem commonly known as NTFS. Nothing against its performance/stability etc. but it is not exactly the choice of freedom lovers.

    Having accepted slavery at the hands of NTFS, additional slavery from Paragon will not hurt much if the promised performance benefits materialize.

    The lack of free choices argument won't help as there are many varied advanced free and Free filesystems for linux/*nix.

  9. #9
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Hi,

    Evaluation report and comments from the NTFS-3G Team.

    Registration was not possible because of an 'Registration failed' error. The parameters were mine: szaka@ntfs-3g.org, Szabolcs, Szakacsits, Hungary, English and accepted the terms. Using different parameters the registration succeeded. The problem is 100% reproducible and anybody is free to test with my provided data above (if it works then I'll get an email). [UPDATE: Paragon fixed this problem: I started to get the test registration and it works for me too -- Szaka]

    Installation went ok.

    When an NTFS volume was mounted with the Paragon driver then the kernel logged this message:
    Code:
    kernel: ufsd: module license 'Commertial product' taints kernel.
    What this means is explained at http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/docs/lkml/#s1-18 (Btw, Paragon should spell Commertial as Commercial.)

    In other words, not only the potential backdoors, spywares, viruses are the real threat when the driver is installed but the softwares bugs which instabilize Ubuntu (system crashes, data corruption, not only on NTFS but Linux file systems as well). Moreover the above also means that whatever problem one will have with the system, open source developers can not and will not help the person because the system became "tainted" (unaudited, unchanged, unverified, untested, unreliable) and no reliability can be ensured in such circumstance by open source developers (we have no access to the code which causes the problems, so we can't help).

    We tried to run some of our test suites listed at http://ntfs-3g.org/quality.html#testmethods but we have found that the Paragon 7.0 BETA driver is not in a state yet where it could be evaluated.

    For instance compilation of software packages fails with gcc error. Running compilebench randomly halts with "No such file error" (seems to be a race condition or NTFS corruption).

    Using an image file, system log gets flooded with the below messages:
    Code:
    kernel: Buffer I/O error on device loop0, logical block 31298816
    kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on loop0
    kernel: Buffer I/O error on device loop0, logical block 31298832
    kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on loop0
    kernel: Buffer I/O error on device loop0, logical block 31298848
    kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on loop0
    kernel: Buffer I/O error on device loop0, logical block 31298864
    kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on loop0
    kernel: Buffer I/O error on device loop0, logical block 31298880
    kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on loop0
    kernel: Buffer I/O error on device loop0, logical block 31298896
    Afterwards not even NTFS-3G could work. The most serious is that, the 2.6.26 kernel got so seriously corrupted that the system had to be rebooted.

    This basically could never happen with NTFS-3G because the non-performance critical functionality is executed in a protected memory space and the performance critical parts are shared with other file systems.

    NTFS-3G is open source and free for commercial and non-commercial use both in the sense as beer and freedom.

    We are committed to give away our work, this is what our GPL license means. We can give it away for free because it enjoys the full support of over 200 distributions, like Ubuntu, Red Hat, Novell, Mandriva, Debian, and quite many committed, paid and volunteer open source developers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anatoly_Paragon View Post
    According to Iozone utility (IO Zone Benchmark Program), our write performance is several times higher that NTFS 3G has (2 – 9 times, it depends on file sizes).
    Let's compare the speeds when the Paragon driver can run the benchmarks, ok? It's easy to be fast when the driver trashes the system. You are comparing a currently unusable beta driver with a stable one

    Performance is also a much more complex subject.

    Moreover the priority of NTFS-3G was and always will be reliability over performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anatoly_Paragon
    NTFS-3g is a user space driver not a kernel space (as ours).[/b]
    No. NTFS-3G is a hybrid space driver. The performance critical work is done purely in the kernel. Only those say the above who don't (want to) understand how FUSE works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anatoly_Paragon
    Kernel space drivers have higher performance than user space ones.
    This is absolutely untrue. Performance is a factor of quite many things. Mostly it depends on the file system and implementation design and the quality of the implementation.

    Otherwise how would you explain that the current NTFS-3G driver in development performs much better than all stable kernel drivers (ext3, xfs, reiserfs)? http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/8/23/51

    Of course Paragon style binary-only kernel drivers have several other disadvantages besides the above ones (losing the support of open source developers, questionable security and reliability, etc), for instance any time Ubuntu updates/upgrades the kernel, the Paragon driver can get broken. It may not function or may start to corrupt data, or even the Linux partitions (kernel corruptions).

    Please also note when these happen you will not get help from open source developers since you're "tainted". On the other hand, Ubuntu and NTFS-3G closely cooperate for almost two years to provide reliable read/write NTFS support to Ubuntu users.

    Best regards, Szaka
    Last edited by szaka; September 9th, 2008 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Paragon NTFS for Linux 7.0 Public Beta Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bingoUV View Post
    Freedom doesn't matter for those who choose to trust their data to an undocumented blob of a filesystem commonly known as NTFS.
    The open source Linux community has reverse engineered and documented the NTFS format in the last 13 years. Quite probably this is the reason Paragon could also develop a commercial, closed-source NTFS driver

    If you would like to ask anything about NTFS please feel free to do so, we'll be glad to reply you.

    Regards, Szaka
    Last edited by szaka; September 8th, 2008 at 06:31 PM.

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