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Thread: Why to Love/Hate C++

  1. #81
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilon View Post
    You are not a real programmer until you master Assembly.
    that's nothing. In old days, to be considered expert you have to be able to write code in binary from panel (and debug it!), and read binary tape (tape --> hexcode --> opcodes). ASM was for weak, read Story of Mel background

    Programming is not about pushing the bits around. My understanding of substance of programing was profoundly changed when I read ACM Turing Lecture 1972 The Humble Programmer by Dijkstra.
    Last edited by pmasiar; November 11th, 2008 at 04:43 PM.

  2. #82
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by pavel989 View Post
    after about page 5, i got bored and came to this conclusion:

    ABSOLUTLY NO ONE, !!!NO ONE!!!, CAN PROVE A LANGUAGE'S SUPERIORITY.
    Relax, you are wrong

    > I've fiddled with VB, C#, python, ruby, small amount of Java (very small, might come back to it...), BASIC, and C++.

    Try Lisp, Prolog, Forth, XSLT, haskel and Erlang to get wider perspective: languages you mentioned are almost identical from POV of the concepts they use.

    > but 5+5 works in either one of them.

    Try XSLT which lacks variables (because does not need them) and then come back.

    > But in my travels, the one question has always been speed.

    Speed is not all programming is: read about speed kiddies and blub programmers to understand what perspective are you missing. See also my previous post.

    > what does lisp or C++ have over the other, that would make it so much better?
    - so far, ive found that anything can be implemented in either, so it wouldnt matter which you use, so long as u can understand it.

    This is exactly blub logic, but you seems to be open to learning wrong of your ways: read Beating the Averages - and then more of Graham's essays.

    BTW please mods can you clean up the idiotic tags on this thread? And if possible teach a lesson to a person who added them, it is IMHO obvious personal attack?
    Last edited by pmasiar; November 11th, 2008 at 05:07 PM.

  3. #83
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    I was wondering, what is up with the tags of this thread?

  4. #84
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by pmasiar View Post
    Relax, you are wrong

    > But in my travels, the one question has always been speed.

    Speed is not all programming is: read about speed kiddies and blub programmers to understand what perspective are you missing. See also my previous post.

    > what does lisp or C++ have over the other, that would make it so much better?
    - so far, ive found that anything can be implemented in either, so it wouldnt matter which you use, so long as u can understand it.

    This is exactly blub logic, but you seems to be open to learning wrong of your ways: read Beating the Averages - and then more of Graham's essays.
    seems to me like you're a veteran programmer. I'm not done fully reading the article, but i do find it interesting. reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave.


    And about the whole blub paradox. If all programs are in the end, compiled to machine code, So long as you think in Blub, does it matter what Blub is?

    I did check out those languages, almost make no sense to me, but they look kinda kool, however, I dont see how I could use them...

    My main goal in programming, is to write games. And by all means, i am no where close to writing even simple 2D scrollers, but im learning.

    The reason i chose C++, was because i figured that there's a damn good reason why almost all games are written in either C++ or JAVA. I know that there are OpenGL bindings for, well, everything (I do plan on mostly using OpenGL. I know DirectX is probably easier/better, but its MS).

    So, it comes down to this for me:

    I can probably switch to Lisp, despite all my efforts in learning the dreaded C++, but would it be worth it?
    Linux.

  5. #85
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by pavel989 View Post
    reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave.
    It is an excellent allegory and very fitting... some languages let you get closer to what exactly is there, and not just the shadows.

    And about the whole blub paradox. If all programs are in the end, compiled to machine code, So long as you think in Blub, does it matter what Blub is?
    In the end, everything is executed on the hardware. Yet, we aren't all electrical engineers designing custom chips for our algorithms.

    This really is the really classic misunderstanding around here... programming languages are for the mind, and the machine underneath is, from the program's perspective, irrelevant -- actually you can't tell what you're running on, from inside the program, if you tried, because of Turing-completeness.

    For you as the human programmer, you are mostly interested in both productivity and how the language itself allows you to express important concepts about the problem. Bit-shuffling is the easy part, although it may sometimes be necessary for performance reasons. These reasons are purely technical though.

    I did check out those languages, almost make no sense to me, but they look kinda kool, however, I dont see how I could use them...
    Definition of blub: can't appreciate features of higher-level languages because one has never used them

    For games, you may not move to Lisp, but if you want to enlighten yourself, you certainly should.
    LambdaGrok. | #ubuntu-programming on FreeNode

  6. #86
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    im interested in Lisp now, the Macro concept, i found, is brilliant. Would i benifet from learning it though? I mean like, (well first of, can macros like that be created in C++?) are there concepts in Lisp that would improve my performance as a programmer and the perforamce of my Apps/Games?
    Linux.

  7. #87
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by pavel989 View Post
    im interested in Lisp now, the Macro concept, i found, is brilliant.
    Yes, it is indeed. It demonstrates very powerfully the relationship between computation and data structures.

    Would i benifet from learning it though?
    Yes, of course you would.

    I mean like, (well first of, can macros like that be created in C++?)
    No, because C++ is not homoiconic by structure. The closest you could probably get would be to first print a temporary source file, then run g++ on that, and produce a dynamically linkable library as a result. But that would be a massive hack

    are there concepts in Lisp that would improve my performance as a programmer
    Of course. It improves you as a thinker about problems, making you a better programmer in any language as a result.

    and the perforamce of my Apps/Games?
    Please do not be a such a speed kiddie. Improvements in your thinking will eventually realize themselves in improvements in algorithms, which result in improvements in speed.
    LambdaGrok. | #ubuntu-programming on FreeNode

  8. #88
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by CptPicard View Post
    Please do not be a such a speed kiddie. Improvements in your thinking will eventually realize themselves in improvements in algorithms, which result in improvements in speed.
    It is still there, must have been accepted.

  9. #89
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    Quote Originally Posted by LaRoza View Post
    It is still there, must have been accepted.
    Should the singular not be "kiddy" though? (pl. kiddies)
    LambdaGrok. | #ubuntu-programming on FreeNode

  10. #90
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    Re: Why to Love/Hate C++

    can C++ and Lisp be used in conjunction? somehow interlaced?
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