Linux Desktop Readiness Thread

[bionerual]

While I do love linux, saying that windows seems to "just work" is a very valid point.
The following things are issues that took me quite alot of time to figure out and some that have not yet been completely solved for me

1. First of all, one of the most common wireless cards for labtops are the bcm43xx cards. I would like to see a corporation go through and install ndiswrapper and configure it for say 300 labtops, while you can maybe write a script for it, it would be nice just to have those 300 labtops work with no problems. My wireless card still won't automatically connect to a network when i turn it on. While it may only take a few seconds to connect to one, its also pleasent to have it just work. Even somebody with good computer knowledge could have trouble discovering how to make it work.

2. Graphics cards are another issue. While you can blame this on the company who makes them, its still a problem that exists. It's like if you had a biofueled powered car. Most gas stations simply don't allow you to fuel up. Even though it's not the fault of the car, you can't say the car is ready for mass marketing.

3. My logitech 5 button mouse only utilizes 3 of the buttons. I think there exists a way to fix this but as stated before, most people don't want to take time looking up ways to fix it. I remember trying to fix it a few years ago on an older installation of of kubuntu. I ended up with a xorg error on boot-up. It took me, having another computer with internet, and an hour or so to be able to fix this. For linux to succeed for the majority of people, issues like this cannot exist.

Ubuntu has made great progress towards becoming "ready" but i would say it is not quite there yet. Its that "just working" ability that people like.

[prizrak]

Is that easier than in Windows, where all you have to do is click the file? No.

Umm yes actually quite a bit easier, Feisty will install w/e plugins are necessary for playback as soon as the user OK's it. Even if it doesn't, installing the good, the bad, and the ugly plug in packs for Gstreamer takes like 20 seconds and can all be done in GUI. If you ever had to deal with codec installation in Windows when it doesn't either come installed or auto-installed you know how much of a hassle it is. If you don't happen to know the names of the codes you gonna have some serious problems.

No, I'm not trying to say that Windows is perfect -- no one here is. However, what I am trying to say is that Linux isn't the cure-all that some people think it is, and there are a number of obstacles in the way of adoption by average desktop users. Sure, some of these obstacles are what makes Linux Linux, but people need to realize they are there and find ways to counterbalance them if they want Linux to get a hold in the mainstream.

Also, if people want to convert Windows users or what-not, then people should focus more on what's good about Linux then what's bad about Windows and Microsoft. For example, instead of telling someone that Microsoft is evil or whatever, try showing someone the benefits of Linux. For example, one thing that I find amazing about Ubuntu is its software repositories. If I want a piece of software, all I have to do is type in a few keywords and click a few buttons. That honestly is like magic.

Very much agree with every word you said except that Ubuntu philosophy doesn't mention converting anyone at all, it just strives to be an easy to use OS. In fact Mark Shuttleworth said more than a few times that his goal is to get those who are not current users of any OS to use Ubuntu instead of something proprietory.

Feba, but using sound in one's browser is an everyday task. Sound shouldn't be too much to ask for.

As have been pointed out, that is your experience is not necessarily that of the majority of users. Gutsy should have no problem with it whatsoever with Gnash comming by default.

1. First of all, one of the most common wireless cards for labtops are the bcm43xx cards. I would like to see a corporation go through and install ndiswrapper and configure it for say 300 labtops, while you can maybe write a script for it, it would be nice just to have those 300 labtops work with no problems. My wireless card still won't automatically connect to a network when i turn it on. While it may only take a few seconds to connect to one, its also pleasent to have it just work. Even somebody with good computer knowledge could have trouble discovering how to make it work.

The most common? Where do you get your data? Most laptops I seen use Intel, Centrino is the best platform for mobile computing anyway. Nothing "just works" in Windows, it all requires drivers and believe me I had a fair share of wireless problems with Windows if you read the previous page I documented some of them. I had no wireless problems with any of my laptops at all.

2. Graphics cards are another issue. While you can blame this on the company who makes them, its still a problem that exists. It's like if you had a biofueled powered car. Most gas stations simply don't allow you to fuel up. Even though it's not the fault of the car, you can't say the car is ready for mass marketing.

The only one that actually has problems is ATI. Intel and nVidia are just fine, I even got hibernate working on my laptop with it running along with Beryl (didn't do anything to make it work either).

3. My logitech 5 button mouse only utilizes 3 of the buttons. I think there exists a way to fix this but as stated before, most people don't want to take time looking up ways to fix it. I remember trying to fix it a few years ago on an older installation of of kubuntu. I ended up with a xorg error on boot-up. It took me, having another computer with internet, and an hour or so to be able to fix this. For linux to succeed for the majority of people, issues like this cannot exist.

My touchpad has two normal buttons, vertical and horizontal scroll on the touchpad itself and a multi-directional button on the middle. Pressing the up/down on the button scrolls, pressing left/right goes back/forward in Firefox. This is default setup never did anything for it.

Ubuntu has made great progress towards becoming "ready" but i would say it is not quite there yet. Its that "just working" ability that people like.

Ubuntu has "just worked" for me ever since about Breezy. Point is that your your mileage WILL vary no matter what OS you use. Aysiu has posted a while ago about a pretty serious problem he encountered with OS X. I've had very serious incompatibility issues with every Windows version. It only seems that OS X and Windows "just work" because they are preinstalled, pick up an Ubuntu Dell or a System76 and then tell me what problems you have getting wireless to work.

[KIAaze]

prizrak, it's not because you had no problems with Ubuntu that others haven't had any.

This thread is about GNU/Linux Desktop readiness, so I think it can only help if people point out the problems with Ubuntu so that it can be improved.

Criticism can be contructive.

(The only problem is unfortunately that most issues are problems with hardware using closed sourced drivers and not providing GNU/Linux drivers. )

[prizrak]

prizrak, it's not because you had no problems with Ubuntu that others haven't had any.

This thread is about GNU/Linux Desktop readiness, so I think it can only help if people point out the problems with Ubuntu so that it can be improved.

Criticism can be contructive.

I was simply pointing out that while some people may have problems, doesn't mean all do. Your mileage will vary, this thread isn't really for constructive criticism it has been created and things get merged into it because they are either plain wrong or we know about them already. Another thing worth pointing out is that developers don't actually read the forums, best thing to do if there is a real suggestion is create a thread with JUST that suggestion and let people discuss it, after the idea is hammered out well enough submitting it to launchpad as a feature request is beneficial

(The only problem is unfortunately that most issues are problems with hardware using closed sourced drivers and not providing GNU/Linux drivers. )

That and the vendor lock in.

[Peyton]

Umm yes actually quite a bit easier....

What's easier than just clicking the file? We're talking about WMV files. Given the choice between installing a plugin and just clicking the file, I'll settle for the latter.

Very much agree with every word you said except that Ubuntu philosophy doesn't mention converting anyone at all, it just strives to be an easy to use OS. In fact Mark Shuttleworth said more than a few times that his goal is to get those who are not current users of any OS to use Ubuntu instead of something proprietory.

No, it doesn't specifically mention converting Windows users or what-have-you, but it does center around the whole "toward humanity" concept, and, besides, the original article two pages back is about what the author says is in the way of eighty or ninety percent of desktop users adopting Linux.

As have been pointed out, that is your experience is not necessarily that of the majority of users. Gutsy should have no problem with it whatsoever with Gnash comming by default.

No, I wouldn't dare to say that it's an experience shared by the majority of users, but it doesn't appear to be an uncommon one, either. But, yes, future versions of Ubuntu are making things easier.

[KIAaze]

this thread isn't really for constructive criticism it has been created and things get merged into it because they are either plain wrong or we know about them already. Another thing worth pointing out is that developers don't actually read the forums,

True.

I was just having the impression that you weren't accepting that some users can have more problems with Ubuntu than Windows. ^^

[steven8]

I have aslo found that two different people working with the same computer can have totally different problems. or, oddly enough, one can always have problems while the other has none.

Case in point:

Our first computer. 266 mhz, 32 mbs edo ram, 1 mb on video memory, running windows 95. Not a powerhouse, but good at the time. Anyway, my wife always complained about the computer freezing during shutdown. I never had this problem. Ever. Then, one day, I was sitting in the room with her when she was on the computer. She had IE open brwosing the net, MS Works open, writing a note, and media player open, listening to music. She took out her cd, saved her document, clicked all the x's on the open app in succession, then clicked shutdown, and proceeded to shutdown the computer at the same time all of the programs were closing. I almost jumped out of my skin, and explained to her that that was probably the reason she was having trouble with the computer freezing up during shutdown. Oi! She couldn't understand what my issue was. The computer should be able to handle it, she said. I just shook my head and walked away.

[bionerual]

The most common? Where do you get your data? Most laptops I seen use Intel, Centrino is the best platform for mobile computing anyway. Nothing "just works" in Windows, it all requires drivers and believe me I had a fair share of wireless problems with Windows if you read the previous page I documented some of them. I had no wireless problems with any of my laptops at all.

Feel free to do a search of broadcom, on the first few pages there are multiple topics with Literally hundreds of posts and hundred thousands of views. Centrino is not a wifi card either. I used the word common to loosely. Even if the broadcom cards are not the majority, they cannot be ignored. Just like you have no problem with Linux cards, I have had no problems with windows. And yes it does just work. If i reinstalled windows, i can simply insert the "drivers and applications" cd that came with my labtop and bam it just works.

The only one that actually has problems is ATI. Intel and nVidia are just fine, I even got hibernate working on my laptop with it running along with Beryl (didn't do anything to make it work either).

And there is a problem. Of all the people I know, i don't know anybody that has had no problems with video cards on linux but had problem on windows. You "got" somthing to work. On windows in most cases everything "already" worked. This may be mostly a problem with the manufacturers but if you read by "biofuel" car analogue the point would be made.

My touchpad has two normal buttons, vertical and horizontal scroll on the touchpad itself and a multi-directional button on the middle. Pressing the up/down on the button scrolls, pressing left/right goes back/forward in Firefox. This is default setup never did anything for it.

My touchpad works great also. My touchpad and external mouse works great in windows also.

Ubuntu has "just worked" for me ever since about Breezy. Point is that your your mileage WILL vary no matter what OS you use. Aysiu has posted a while ago about a pretty serious problem he encountered with OS X. I've had very serious incompatibility issues with every Windows version. It only seems that OS X and Windows "just work" because they are preinstalled, pick up an Ubuntu Dell or a System76 and then tell me what problems you have getting wireless to work.

You're ignoring the point that as of right now 99.9% of shipped system with windows installed, everything worked. If I installed kubuntu on all of those machines, simply everything would not work. You cannot deny this fact. It is evident in the (1579 Viewing) (250,608 Threads) (1,186,871 Posts) currently in the support section of these forums.

At the end of the day, Windows is a great OS for those looking for the most compatible out of the box system. Linux is great for those who want to delve deeper into computers and are willing to spend time fixing things that go wrong, and know what to do when things go wrong.

Windows "safe mode" always a easy gui way to fix problems an intelligent user might have. They can goto their control panel and rollback that driver they just installed. It is self explanitory

Ubuntu "recovery mode" logs you into a command line.. what does one do now?

Don't get me wrong, I prefer running linux over windows but the learning curve is steep, and cannot be ignored.

[mdsmedia]

You're ignoring the point that as of right now 99.9% of shipped system with windows installed, everything worked. If I installed kubuntu on all of those machines, simply everything would not work. You cannot deny this fact. It is evident in the (1579 Viewing) (250,608 Threads) (1,186,871 Posts) currently in the support section of these forums.

At the end of the day, Windows is a great OS for those looking for the most compatible out of the box system. Linux is great for those who want to delve deeper into computers and are willing to spend time fixing things that go wrong, and know what to do when things go wrong.

Windows "safe mode" always a easy gui way to fix problems an intelligent user might have. They can goto their control panel and rollback that driver they just installed. It is self explanitory

Ubuntu "recovery mode" logs you into a command line.. what does one do now?

Don't get me wrong, I prefer running linux over windows but the learning curve is steep, and cannot be ignored.

You made my point for me. 99.9% of SHIPPED SYSTEMS with Windows installed WILL just work (at least at first), because the hardware was chosen for the OS, the drivers selected and added to the installation CDs, and the OS configured for the hardware.

Then you said "If I installed kubuntu on all of those machines, simply everything would not work.", but Kubuntu wasn't configured for the hardware. YOU installed Kubuntu on those machines, but you expect that it will work as flawlessly out of the box as the pre-installed Windows on the same machine?

It might be just me, but I could never get Windows rollback to work properly. Then again I wouldn't have a clue how to use Linux recovery mode either.

Then, as I said, Windows will work, pre-installed, out of the box...but give it six months and installing and uninstalling software, changing/adding hardware etc, and see if it works as well as Linux does after six months. I've had Ubuntu on my notebook for going on 2 years, and it works as well now as it did then, upgraded from Hoary to Breezy to Dapper. This after 6 months of XP on a brand new HP laptop almost ground to a halt.

And the wireless and video worked "out of the box", as soon as I'd installed Ubuntu, as did the touchpad, sound, etc.

Comparing Windows, pre-installed on hardware configured for Windows, with Kubuntu installed by you on hardware configured for Windows, is like comparing apples with oranges and unfair. Buy hardware that supports/is supported by Ubuntu/Linux, or have Linux pre-installed on hardware configured for Linux, then do the comparison.

[m.musashi]

You're ignoring the point that as of right now 99.9% of shipped system with windows installed, everything worked. If I installed kubuntu on all of those machines, simply everything would not work. You cannot deny this fact. It is evident in the (1579 Viewing) (250,608 Threads) (1,186,871 Posts) currently in the support section of these forums.

This is a faulty argument. Computers don't ship with windows because windows just works. They ship with windows because windows is all most people know and in order to stay in business manufacturers go to great lengths to make sure windows works so people will buy their computers. And I suppose all the 24/7 toll free tech support from Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM and on and on are not there to support the fixing of windows problems because windows just works.

Oh, and quoting the number of support threads in a support forum is meaningless. Actually, a million posts only proves that a heck of a lot of people are using Ubuntu. If half the people that use Ubuntu have problems then half don't and you won't see them for that precise reason. Most people have problems because they are not very tech savvy and are trying to install an operating system on a computer that was not manufactured to run that OS. The fact that most of them eventually succeed is a testament to Ubuntu and the people here who help them and the desire of those wanting to use it to work hard at fixing their problems.

If manufacturers would spend as much effort to ensure K/Ubuntu worked like they do with windows then it would. Don't go throwing out a bunch of baseless suppositions and ignore the reality of the issue. Hardware makers can make Linux work just as well as windows. In fact, given the amount of money microsoft has spent on windows, it should work a whole lot better than it does. If you like windows then use it. You are free to do so (within the boundaries of the EULA of course). If you like Linux you are even more free to use it. But coming to a Linux forum and telling everyone that Linux has problems and windows is better accomplishes nothing. If you want to see Linux/Ubuntu get better then do something useful. If you could care less what happens then live and let live. Your comments here will achieve nothing except to incite people. And if you think you are helping by posting here you are not. No one here is going to say "oh, he makes a good point. Let's go fix that." If you want to discuss the pros/cons of using Ubuntu then by all means do so. But stick to facts and avoid hyperbole.

Finally, do not ignore that fact that for many people using Linux/Ubuntu is also a philosophy. Many of us are sick and tired of all the MS bull and saturation of the market with secret formats. In a free society information must remain free. Microsoft's ubiquitousness undermines freedom of access and freedom of information. What if the bible, koran, declaration of independence or any other important document had been written in ms word and only those who could afford to buy the software could read them? Is that freedom? You may not accept the underlying philosophy and you do not have to accept it to use free (as in freedom) software. But you do have to acknowledge that for many of us the philosophy is important and respect that.

Peace.