Linux Desktop Readiness Thread

[fyllekajan]

SWBgHz,

You're right about there are some individuals in the community wrongly claiming Ubuntu to be a perfect replacement for XP which isn’t true - at least not for everyone. As already being said Linux is an alternative to XP not a replacement. Then again, you will find people claiming different things in any community.

It's not a secret there are certain tools, applications, viruses and games not available for Linux. If the users must have those they may want to stick with XP or dual-boot (most Windows users reboot their system on a regular basis anyway).

It's not a secret Linux doesn't work with all hardware. People may want to do some research before installing a new OS or ask the community. If those 95% are too lazy to do that then maybe they need to have it pre-installed or have someone else to do it for them just to be sure. For your car analogy there will always be a learning curve somewhere when trying something new no matter how user friendly it is, and Ubuntu is getting more and more user friendly. There's no need however to replicate Windows behavior to satisfy Windows poweruser converts if it means ending up with a less intuitive system for beginners and others. And if you still crash using Ubuntu you'll have a team of mechanics and technicians standing by to help you out.

Microsoft isn't greedy you say.. LMAO good one!

[darrenm]

Also - can I make another contreversial comment here - this whole thing about the cost of windows. Please, give me a break. Who here is dumb enough to go to Best Buy and pick up a retail copy of Windows? If you are you deserve to get charged an insanely inflated price. OEM versions of XP are as cheap as $80 and tha tis a prefectly reasonable price for a piece of software such as an OS. Besides that, a Technet subscription is an incredible value giving you access not only to the FULL MS software catlogue but to support direct from MS and Technet as well as a number of excellent technical resources suitable for supporting not just a user but an organization. Technet subscriptions are as cheap as a couple hundred a year. I realize it isn't free, Linux is certainly unrivaled in that sense - but Microsoft doesn't gouge prices like people make them out to, they make less off the average OEM POS than NVIDIA or ATI or Intel do I can assure you of that - not to mention what Apple makes off thier overpriced proprietary crap while getting a pass for beign the good guys. MS are no saints and certainly with vista you wonder what they are thinking - but they are not the evil, greedy, gouging asses people around Linux make them out to be.

You're so far off the mark I don't even know where to begin. Almost everything you say in this block is incorrect. OEM POS? Do you know what POS stands for? ATi or NVidia don't make cards, they sell chips and reference designs to 3rd partys and Microsoft DO make a lot off OEM licensing.

edit: If you like I can find all the nasty things Microsoft have done and are still doing to show they are far worse than just evil, greedy, gouging asses.

[Tomosaur]

You failed to note that I did what I did thinking of what the 95% of the world would do, of what the people I build PCs for would do and what thier ability is. If that 95% cannot do such simple things as I described then Linux still fails.

And FYI, as I said - I tried the driver from NVIDIA and the driver from the repository and both crashed X. Certainly, I can easily reconfig X and briong it back up - but there is no way in hell the 95% can and I was evaluating it from that standpoint.

Also, as I said, I have found a great use for Ubunutu and it the role of a dedicated PVR it shines but Linux has allways shined as a single purpose OS. It is the broad desktop use that has allways been difficult, Ubunutu represents a better than historical crack at the desktop role but it still has a long, long way to go. But as a desktop - please - Ubunutu, while greatly improved, is NOWHERE near ready fo rthe mainstream of PCs.

And therein lies the problem. By your own admission, you are NOT representative of 95% of the world, and you can't ever hope to speak for them. It is this arrogant mindset which shows you up I'm afraid. The most successful converts to Ubuntu are, in fact, the kind of users who don't know all that much about Windows in the first place. The reason this is so is that these users haven't yet learnt all the ins and outs of Windows, and haven't formed all of the (bad) habits that come along with it. If you had given Ubuntu a fair trial, instead of comparing everything to Windows, then of course, Ubuntu is going to fail by your standards, because it is so radically different from Windows in most areas. If you view 'different from Windows' as 'bad', then I'm afraid you're already a lost cause.

You say that you downloaded the nVidia driver from their website. Well, unfortunately in the Linux world, we don't tend to download stuff from websites )even though we technically can). This is perhaps the most obvious difference from Windows. The repository system is just so much cleaner, faster, and more organised, and if you had bothered for even a second to search for nvidia related stuff in Synaptic, then you would have found the correct drivers, and you'd have no problems. Just don't download vital stuff likedrivers from websites, it is an all-round bad idea. Everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) in the repository is checked and re-checked to make sure that it will work with Ubuntu. It is odd that you claim that 95% of users couldn't figure this behaviour out, when in reality, most do, usually because they take the time to read up on what they're getting themselves into when they decide to have a go at Linux. I know when I was first thinking of trying Linux, the repository system was one of its biggest selling points. It seemed so obvious to me that a repository system is much, much better than the 'random download and install' approach which Windows uses. Yes, you also say that you tried the driver from the repository, and if that failed too, then this is certainly an issue, but you should also understand, with all of your degrees and whatnot, that computers are:

a)fickle.
b)different from each other in almost every circumstance.

While the driver SHOULDN'T have caused you problems, it is certainly not as common a problem as you make it out to be. I've had the nvidia driver crash my system on Windows quite a few times - it even caused a BSOD once, and I had to roll-back the driver and wait for the next release. Did I say 'Windows isn't ready' because of this? Of course not - and at least with Ubuntu I have the opportunity to contact the Ubuntu developers and let them know that the nVidia driver wouldn't work (even though I have never actually had such a problem with Ubuntu, apart from one time where it was very obviously my fault, and took about a minute to fix).

Of course, Ubuntu isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone - just like Windows isn't perfect and is not for everyone, and just like Macs are not perfect and not for everyone. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Ubuntu, but such is life. It does no good to come and complain here, because most of the forum users aren't Ubuntu developers,so more often than not, such complaints are responded to with sarcasm, if not complete hostiliy. If you had bothered to learn something about the system you were using, and had asked for help, rather than assuming you would be instantly comfortable with Ubuntu, then I'm sure your experience would have been radically different, and you may even have enjoyed using Ubuntu.

[prizrak]

I want to acknowledge that this statement is very well reasoned and pretty much what I tell people who ask me about Linux (again, I am not a new to Linux guy). What prompted my post and the arguments that followed is that much of the Linux community, particuarly the Ubuntu community, do run around offering it as a perfect replacement for XP and that is just not right. It may be the best alternative to XP in terms of Linux distros but it is far from being capable of sitting on 95% of the desktops around the country where Windows computers sit. And without addressing many of the still needless command line functions and fragility of the GUI and other legacy UNIX operations it will never get there. So what - Linux fan says I don't care if it gets there - fine, then don't EVER whine about getting no love from the manufacturers because so long as Linux remains in the low single digits of the desktop market you will struggle to get drivers and such for yoru preferred OS (not to mention software support too).

And you are basing this assumption on how many installs? What you fail to realize is that you are using a singular experience to extrapolate your conclusion. Additionally you did not do a single thing that an average user would do. An average user does not install his/her own OS. He/she will either buy a pre-built system with an OS already isntalled and configured or will pay someone to install and configure the OS on their current system. As such they would not run into a hardware issue like you would. You can order and Ubuntu system from Dell and I'm willing to bet that it will work just right as soon as you turn it on.

As for Nautilus not telling you you don't have permissions to the folder and letting you elevate them. It would be a pretty nice feature to have, however any user who doesn't know to use gksudo nautilus to open up the window with full system permissions should not be attempting to write into a system directory.

I installed Ubuntu on 3 systems for myself all with very different hardware and never had to touch the CLI. In fact my mother was able to use Thunderbird on my laptop to get some addresses out of my address book that she needed, all on my Ubuntu machine (Breezy I think it was). Just an FYI one of the machines is a convertible (tablet/laptop) and in Feisty the tablet portion was picked up and configured out of the box. It also uses an nVidia card as well as my desktop and both of them work perfectly with either the FLOSS or proprietary drivers. Even run Beryl AND Compiz (I played with both) without a single issue. This was all set up without ever touching the CLI.

Another point I would like to make is that I had very idiotic problems with XP. If you go back about 30-40 pages you will see me documenting my experience with it. It failed to recognize my Intel RAID controller and required a floppy with drivers. We are talking XP SP2 here not Gold. The systems engineers at my current job tell me they have the same problem with Server 2003 installations where they have an external floppy drive lying around just for that. So based on this singular experience Windows is a horrible OS and is not ready for the desktop.

Another thing I would like you to consider is that home user desktops comprise at most 50% of the market. The other 50% or so is taken up by organizations. While Linux based OS's in general and Ubuntu in particular may not be a good OS for home users for whatever reason. It is a very viable alternative for an organizational desktop. Breaking into that market is much easier than a home user market and it could provide Linux based OS's with a significant enough marketshare to be supported by major ISVs/OEMs.

For your car analogy there will always be a learning curve somewhere when trying something new no matter how user friendly it is

As a complete and utter gearhead I would like to expand on this. If you have driven FWD cars your entire life you will get into trouble on an RWD. RWD tends to oversteer and allow for a spin out, while FWD tends to understeer, which would just make you go wider around the turn. Recovery procedure for either of those are very different in both FWD and RWD vehicles. For instance in an FWD if you are understeering you just tap the brakes (or left foot brake if you are good), in an RWD under same conditions you will give the throttle a quick whack to get the rear tires sliding. You can't say that one layout is better than the other (although I do think that FWD is useless with AWD/4WD cars comming down in price lately) they are just different. Ubuntu is different from Windows, it has it's quirks and issues as does Windows neither can be said to be perfect.

P.S. The recovery procedures I outlined are obviously simplified for the purpose of making an argument.

[stalker145]

You fanboys are so blind, I already said several times I know how to fix it and in fact did. I regarded it as a major failure because there is no ay in hell an 'average' user would have been able to solve the problems I came across.

My, my, my. Someone had a big bowl of Bitch-O's for breakfast. The arrogance in your tone tells me that no matter what anyone says, you will not be swayed. Meh, I'll say it anyway.

I... am... an... average... user. There, it's out.

When I came to Ubuntu, I had NO knowledge of Linux and a pretty good amount of experience in Windows. I also came to Linux with the understanding that I was not using Windows <gasp>. That said, I must say that your definition of the 'average user' must be laid out, because I think yours is different from most people's here.

My first install of Ubuntu left me with an unusable system (because of a PCI-EIDE card). Did I panic? Nope. Did I know how to fix it? Nope. Did I know where to go for info? Yup... 1) Insert LiveCD, 2) Head for the forums... Man, a typical, average user going where the knowledge will be to fix a system that he knows nothing about and not delving into the OS and breaking things. But, then I don't have any degrees...

I was performing this install as a test of its capability for use by 'average' people. Anything that an average (or even above average user) couldn't do I wouldn't do.

When using the BUILT IN driver update system (the restricted driver dialogue) crashes the Xwindows system rendering the computer to a command line only system it is a serious failure in terms of being 'Linux for Human Beings'.

See my above statement. If an average person (myself for one) were to go to the forums to try to find a fix for his problem, why did you not post here until you'd sufficiently borked your gear up? You, my friend, were not holding to the average, but were trying to fix it with your knowledge. When that failed, you decided to lash out. Oh, well. I hope you get over it and maybe we can help you fix your problem instead of wasting bandwidth like this.

I am not a Linux dufus even if I am not a Linux expert. I tried one way the average person might try it and then tried another after resetting things. As for the file thing, yes - the average person wouldn't do that but that is not the point.

I thought the point of your experiment was to test what the average user would do. Oh, wait, that wasn't the point. Yes it was. Damn, now I'm confused...

the point is that it is pretty ridiculous that I would want to do something and be rejected by the OS with no info or dialogue explaining why and with no way to then authenticate my supremacy as the owner of the damn hardware to do what I want. Other processes ask for privileged elevation so why not GUI processes? It is just legacy BS. If I am at the command line and type sudo ./file_name_whatever to run it it will prompt for proper password before running so why not have that SAME behavior as an option when at the GUI so if I double click (or right click and get a run as root) option?

Ummm, ok, let's go over this one thing at a time.

No info or dialogue: The GUI is set up so that people that are not comfortable with the command line can operate an OS. People that use GUI's are generally not in need of the amount of information that is passed on the CLI. If you wish to know what's going on behind the scenes or why something failed, drop to the CLI.

Elevation of privileges: You mention typing sudo at the command prompt and ask for similar behavior from the GUI. Well, the option is there. By typing sudo, you are already telling the OS that you want root privilege. That's why you get the magic password prompt. It was already mentioned how to get a root GUI-thingy-app. CLI~>gksudo appname~>be happy.

Anyway, thanks for the insightful comments. In my response I have also learned something. 1) My Firefox doesn't seem to know the words Ubuntu or Forefox, and I seem to have a British version because it insists that I spell behavior as behaviour. Eh, spell-check is fun...

[Bothered]

Off topic: Firefox dictionaries: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:3

[forrestcupp]

I want to acknowledge that this statement is very well reasoned and pretty much what I tell people who ask me about Linux (again, I am not a new to Linux guy). What prompted my post and the arguments that followed is that much of the Linux community, particuarly the Ubuntu community, do run around offering it as a perfect replacement for XP and that is just not right. It may be the best alternative to XP in terms of Linux distros but it is far from being capable of sitting on 95% of the desktops around the country where Windows computers sit. And without addressing many of the still needless command line functions and fragility of the GUI and other legacy UNIX operations it will never get there. So what - Linux fan says I don't care if it gets there - fine, then don't EVER whine about getting no love from the manufacturers because so long as Linux remains in the low single digits of the desktop market you will struggle to get drivers and such for yoru preferred OS (not to mention software support too).

Also - can I make another contreversial comment here - this whole thing about the cost of windows. Please, give me a break. Who here is dumb enough to go to Best Buy and pick up a retail copy of Windows? If you are you deserve to get charged an insanely inflated price. OEM versions of XP are as cheap as $80 and tha tis a prefectly reasonable price for a piece of software such as an OS. Besides that, a Technet subscription is an incredible value giving you access not only to the FULL MS software catlogue but to support direct from MS and Technet as well as a number of excellent technical resources suitable for supporting not just a user but an organization. Technet subscriptions are as cheap as a couple hundred a year. I realize it isn't free, Linux is certainly unrivaled in that sense - but Microsoft doesn't gouge prices like people make them out to, they make less off the average OEM POS than NVIDIA or ATI or Intel do I can assure you of that - not to mention what Apple makes off thier overpriced proprietary crap while getting a pass for beign the good guys. MS are no saints and certainly with vista you wonder what they are thinking - but they are not the evil, greedy, gouging asses people around Linux make them out to be.

I actually agree with most of what you're saying here. Anyone who defends Linux to the point that they claim there's nothing wrong with it is crazy. There are a lot of things that aren't worked out yet, and they need to be fixed. But just look at the difference between Linux now and Linux 5 years ago. Linux is way more user friendly than it used to be, and it's only getting better at a fast pace. Just visually alone, it has gone from an OS that didn't care much about appearance, to beating the pants off of Microsoft's newest OS visually.

Where I disagree is the thought that Windows is any better. I recently did a clean install of Ubuntu Feisty and Windows XP on the same computer. It was incomparable. I had way more trouble getting XP to work than I did Ubuntu, and I've had a lot of experience with Windows. I also tried doing a clean install of Vista on the same machine. I won't even talk about that hell.

I'm sorry about the trouble you've had, but I don't think you can assume that you're in the majority with that.

[Dragonbite]

I recently did a clean install of Ubuntu Feisty and Windows XP on the same computer. It was incomparable. I had way more trouble getting XP to work than I did Ubuntu, and I've had a lot of experience with Windows. I also tried doing a clean install of Vista on the same machine. I won't even talk about that hell.

Since Linux has not had the comfort of being pre-installed on computers by professionals who have time and expertise, it has had to find other means of being distributed and has worked hard over the years to make it as easy as possible.

I tried installing Windows 2000 on a machine and it was a pain-in-the-**** to find, download and install all of the drivers for it (some of which were actually hacks because the drivers were stopped being developed with Windows98!).

With Ubuntu I had a working machine almost immediately and the two things that were not working fine were the Winmodem (no surprise there) and the video playback was messed up. Other than that, it was fully working.

[SWBgHz]

I can't speak for other people, but I don't really want to buy an operating system that has been superseded. The cheapest prices I can find for Windows Vista Home Premium are ~$110 for an upgrade and ~$200 for complete. You can argue that that's cheap for what it is, but I am not (yet) prepared to pay it.

XP has hardly been supplanted by Vista, in fact it is quite questionable if it ever will be the way Vista is going (it is well on its way to being the second coming of Windows milenium). Nevertheless, OEM Vista is only $110, with a game or any other commercial software product typically running in the $50 to $60 range it is hard to flame MS for selling the OS at $90 to $110.

[Frak]

I've never seen Vista lower than $190