View Poll Results: Before you started using Ubuntu, what was your computer experience?

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  • I earned my living as a programmer, system administrator, network administrator, etc.

    34 12.23%
  • I did some kind of programming or other high-level/back-end software work, mainly volunteer.

    30 10.79%
  • Other high level (describe)

    3 1.08%
  • I dabbled in some programming every now and then.

    73 26.26%
  • I didn't program, but I was a computer power user as part of my job.

    9 3.24%
  • I didn't program, but I was a computer power user at home.

    94 33.81%
  • Other mid-level (describe)

    4 1.44%
  • I wasn't a programmer or a power user. I just did basic work.

    24 8.63%
  • I knew virtually nothing about computers except clicking familiar icons.

    6 2.16%
  • Other low level (describe)

    1 0.36%
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Thread: Do you have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu?

  1. #91
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Beans
    227

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    Since this have been moved to the cafe I suppose it now subject for personal thoughts and opinions.

    I understand frustration, once I spent days solving a issue, it turned out to be a simple one that could have been fixed in a matter of minuets. In fact it was so simple that I believe the reason none could help me was they simply didn't understand what I was asking for.
    As it turns out the root of the problem was that not only did I not grasp the problem let alone the concept.
    Most of all it was a matter of me needing to see the light so to speak it can be a long and painful process at times.

    This can be very frustrating not only in terms of computing but in general life.

    Not that I am venting even if this is a venting thread so if I was to be venting I would be venting that one should always try to look upon oneself before blaming others for ones own possible inadequacy not that it might be down to an inadequacy could be an genuine concern that needs venting.

    As it turns out ubuntu is a good place to be if you feel lost -
    Welcome to the Absolute Beginner Talk forum. This area is intended for anyone who is new to Ubuntu, or Linux on the whole.

    If you want to know more about the Ubuntu operating system or the Ubuntu phenomenon, you've come to the right place. If you're thinking of switching to Ubuntu, if you want advice about computers, or if you just want help getting everyday tasks done in Ubuntu, this is also a good place to start. It's also a great place to learn how to use an Internet forum, if you've never used one before.

    Because so many newcomers to Ubuntu start in this area, the following rules -- taken from the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct -- are strictly enforced in this area. These are paraphrased for brevity's sake; you can read the original rule on the policy page.

    * There are no stupid questions (II:1). Everyone was new to Linux at some point.
    * Be polite, respectful (I:1) and considerate (II:6).
    * Try to communicate as clearly as possible (I:10).
    * Give basic instructions, in step-by-step form when necessary (II:14). Try to avoid jargon (II:7).
    * Answers like "STFU", "RTFM" or "Google it" ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (II:8 ). Those answers will incur warnings, infractions or bans if a staff member feels it is appropriate. This is a cardinal rule of our community.

    Similarly, following these suggestions will make a big difference when you ask for help.

    * Try to include some information in the title of your post (II:2). A thread titled "Help a n00b" is less likely to get an answer than "Live CD installer freezes at 75% mark."
    * When you ask for help, try to give as many details as you can (II:4).
    * Searching the forum for your problem can often yield an answer more quickly than asking the question anew (II:3). This is a very busy forum with the largest registered user base of any single Linux distribution, so it's very likely that someone has encountered your problem before.
    * Keep discussions on topic (I:7). Tacking an unrelated question onto a thread is called hijacking, and is considered in poor taste. But more importantly, fewer people are likely to see your question, which means you're less likely to get an answer. Start a new thread instead.
    * Please mark your thread as resolved once a solution has been posted. Log in, edit the first post in your thread, then choose the “Check box if your thread **IS** resolved” radio box. Save your changes, and you're done.

    As a side note, cross-posting (posting the same question in more than one place) is likewise considered bad form. However, because these forums move fast, bumping a thread (posting an empty reply just to move the thread to the top of the stack) is acceptable.

    You may also want to check the Ubuntu wiki or Unofficial Ubuntu Starter Guide (chose 6.06 or 6.10 in the “Ubuntu” section) for assistance.

    Finally, if you need immediate help and can't wait for a forum reply, consider asking your question on IRC. If you do not know how to use IRC, you may find this thread helpful: Irc?

    The staff here strives to make everyone welcome, and to make every Ubuntu newcomer's experience a postive one. We hope you enjoy Ubuntu and that you become a respected member of the community.

    -- bodhi.zazen, Beginner Team leader
    but it would be a mistake to think all are alike -
    Q) I am a complete Linux beginner. Should I use Arch?

    A) This question has had much debate. Arch is targeted at more-advanced Linux users, but some people feel "Arch is a good place to start". If you are a beginner and want to use Arch, just be warned that you MUST be willing to learn. Before asking any question, do your own independent research by googling, searching the Wiki, and searching the forum (and reading past FAQs). If you do that, you should be fine. Also know that many people do not want to answer the same basic questions over and over, so you are exposing yourself to that environment. There is a reason these resources were created/made available to you. You could reference the ArchLinux Newbie Guide.
    I like both approaches and could not be with out either one at times I need one more then the other but so it goes.

    Take a deep breath and enjoy the moment you have been “ubuntued” - ubuntu flower children 1 evil cruel world 0.

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Beans
    99
    Distro
    Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    I have read the first post.

    I did not bother with the replies.

    I imagine they are all to the affect of "wow wow wow buddy stop now" (trying to sound above you) followed by "the point YOU missed and are WRONG about is"

    Truth is, if people are going to switch to Linux, the communities suck. I mean, these people are great, but if you talk down to Linux and you also show some sore spot they can attack you with, they will blast you for it in a subtle, ego filled way that they must just not notice they do.

    However, as a tribute to new-users I never use anything CLI on my laptop. It is what I take out in the world with me. I want to show it to people and say not: "this is what Linux can do" but "this is what YOU can do with Linux"

    Mostly, I have never had a hardware problem under Linux (from video to wireless) so it's not been a problem. I use Add/Remove and Synaptic Package Manager (System | Administration) to download. Aside from that I downloaded skype for Ubuntu from the official website. Flawless install.

    I also got Wine-doors and Pidgin from getdeb.com instead of using apt-get like I normally do.

    This OS can be used in simple-mode as it were. People will just insist on keeping a pickle up their butts in order to tell you why you SHOULDN'T (see: no good reason)

    I don't read Ubuntu help, it is something way to old for me anymore, but what it should start with is this:

    Welcome to Ubuntu
    What's Different < Link

    Explaining .deb files, why you need a .deb file specific to your flavor of Linux. Explaining the two places it's easiest to install software from, explaining how to share a folder, how to browse an MS network, other than that, if you understand point and click, you should already figure out the rest. Everything is labeled well enough.

    A book called Ubuntu for All or something should be released.

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Beans
    227

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naralas View Post
    I did not bother with the replies.
    Don't get me wrong I am not a big poster either but I do read at times I miss stuff but I try.
    You should read the thread seems to me that many misconception begin out with exactly that mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naralas View Post
    I imagine they are all to the affect of "wow wow wow buddy stop now" (trying to sound above you) followed by "the point YOU missed and are WRONG about is"

    Truth is, if people are going to switch to Linux, the communities suck. I mean, these people are great, but if you talk down to Linux and you also show some sore spot they can attack you with, they will blast you for it in a subtle, ego filled way that they must just not notice they do.
    This I can't get my head around at all so ill leave it alone but yes some places has much less patience they are in there right to be so if they wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naralas View Post
    However, as a tribute to new-users I never use anything CLI on my laptop. It is what I take out in the world with me. I want to show it to people and say not: "this is what Linux can do" but "this is what YOU can do with Linux"
    This is well put I thought that was what ubuntu was all about?
    Sorry but if you see these forums as unfriendly and stock up you need 1. to start getting more around 2. start reading at least as much as you post.

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Beans
    996
    Distro
    Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    If you don't have enough time to read, don't write.

    Either way, I think CLI is waaay underrated, eventually the user should only care about pseudo-intuitive interfaces when he is starting, the CLI is a tool that improves your efficiency regardless of how much GUI options are out there, I hereby think that to make a basic ubuntu setup I don't need a terminal, but to customize it to the extreme it is really useful, it also gets very good when you get into it.

    This said, I think CLI is a feature, not a bug, and I feel offended when people bash it for no good reason besides their belief of what friendly is. This said I don't think it makes any sense at all to stop using the CLI just for "respect for newcomers" I will use whatever tool is more effective for the job I want to do. I also think that people really inadvertently have a very LAME superiority complex in which, they really think that the rest of the world is stupid or limited in learning skills, to say that most people are incapable of using the terminal is actually an act of underrating the rest of the world.

    People of the past used CLI all the time, want to open wordperfect? Type wordperfect , want to move a file? type move source location. forgot anything? type help. And they survived... as a matter of fact most of them got really confused when they got taught windows...

    I don't really think there is any friendly OS out there, humanity has yet achieved just things that look pretty but are still rather illogical to use.
    Last edited by vexorian; August 5th, 2007 at 02:50 PM.
    Xye incredibly difficult puzzle game with minimal graphics. Also at playdeb
    Got a blog: Will Stay Free

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Cocoa Beach
    Beans
    60
    Distro
    Ubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    In the event that the person who started this thread is still reading the responses. I would like to throw in my two cents, however I only read a few of the other replies.

    You Don't Learn Anything in 15 Minutes

    If you have been using some other operating system for a while and switch to Linux, you have to accept there is going to be a learning curve and it is going to be longer then "15 minutes".

    Buy a Decent Book

    Once upon a time computer software included printed documentation, these days you need to find a decent book to replace this non-existent documentation. Go to the local bookstore and pick up one that you like the authors writing style and explains the things that you are going to need to know. I happen to like one called "Hacking Ubuntu" by Dr. Neal Kraetz, you may like a different one.

    Learn the Rules of the Road

    Everyone should know where everything is stored on their computer. You also will need to know a few terminal commands, since you may find out that some things are easier to do from the terminal.

    The Super User (a.k.a "the root")

    Both the top of the file system and the super user are called "the root", when you use ubuntu the "sudo" command allows you to execute commands as the super user. You may also create a password for the super user and login as "root". The reason that you have to understand about the super user is that unlike other operating systems, files are protected by default. Which is why you have to install new software as the super user and also why Linux is better protected against malicious code (e.g. virues)

    Well this should get you going for now or scare you back to your other operating system. If you want to run a mixed environment remember Linux does play well with other operating systems and you have to set a password for samba to share files.

    Peace

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Beans
    143

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    There is a degree of truth to the reasoning and the comunity: for whatever reason ( sometimes practical, sometimes not ) any support that you get or find on the sites always involves doing things manually and fail to mention you can do the same things graphically. I edited my sources.list files tons and tons of times, I did not find anything particulary hard about it since I do have a programming background and new how to "comment" things and what does that concept means, etc.

    But not once I saw somebody said: "Go to System>Administration>Software Sources>Third Party Software Tab, click on Add and paste this address" I had to find that out on my own.

    Regardless of what your personal opinion and feelings on GUI vs CLI are, As somebody who spends HOURS describing how to change configuration settings over the phone 5 days at week its 10x easier to explain that GUI to add sources than to get a user to do it on a terminal and then gedit, unless you do have extensive experience and/or programming background.

    I wish I was more experienced to start rewritting tutorials for people with screenshots and descriptions of the tools already available in ubuntu but sadly I have to get more familiar myself first.
    Last edited by Dimitriid; August 5th, 2007 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #97
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Gdansk, Poland
    Beans
    162
    Distro
    Kubuntu 6.06

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrimson Scorpion View Post
    Yes I expected Linux to be different, if I did not want different why change from Windows
    Wrong question. Linux was never Windows. If all you want is free Windows, you might want to look somewhere else.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Beans
    227

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    Quote Originally Posted by feravolo View Post
    In the event that the person who started this thread is still reading the responses.
    The OP posted again and put the thread to live so I guess he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitriid View Post
    There is a degree of truth to the reasoning and the comunity: for whatever reason ( sometimes practical, sometimes not ) any support that you get or find on the sites always involves doing things manually and fail to mention you can do the same things graphically. I edited my sources.list files tons and tons of times, I did not find anything particulary hard about it since I do have a programming background and new how to "comment" things and what does that concept means, etc.

    But not once I saw somebody said: "Go to System>Administration>Software Sources>Third Party Software Tab, click on Add and paste this address" I had to find that out on my own.

    Regardless of what your personal opinion and feelings on GUI vs CLI are, As somebody who spends HOURS describing how to change configuration settings over the phone 5 days at week its 10x easier to explain that GUI to add sources than to get a user to do it on a terminal and then gedit, unless you do have extensive experience and/or programming background.

    I wish I was more experienced to start rewritting tutorials for people with screenshots and descriptions of the tools already available in ubuntu but sadly I have to get more familiar myself first.
    Not to be dramatic but I am sure you don't need to be a programmer to understand the sources.list I can say this because I am not one.

    I (rediscovered would be right I believe) >Administration>Software Sources> not to long ago and ill be using it myself for me it's not about "to be, or not to be". It's a learning process.

    I remember reading about supporting with “gui vs cli” some time ago here on the forum seems there was some disagreement to what was the best approach personally I truly don't care either way as I see it.
    However I feel fairly sure that most new to linux would be more comfortable with gui then cli and it would be more in line with ubuntu as I see it so I suppose that would be just the way to go about.
    If I try to help someone ill remember that, not that it's going to be hard in any way I feel very at home in a gui.

    To be blond what all this really boils down to, if you try to help someone you should do it with the best intention if not you should stay out of it. I just find it hard to tip toe around unreasonable it's just as bad as rtfm imo, maybe it's a balance just like gui and cli maybe it's not.

  9. #99
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    US
    Beans
    Hidden!
    Distro
    Ubuntu

    Re: Why do all Linux OS presume the user can program?

    I don't know why Chrimson Scorpion's thread got moved out of Testimonials and Experiences, but if it's in the Cafe, it'd be more appropriate to be part of this thread, which asks an open-ended question (do you have to be a programmer?) instead of presupposing an answer (you have to be a programmer... but why?). So: merged.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Beans
    615
    Distro
    Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron

    Re: Do you have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
    Obviously the issue is whether linux is difficult to set up and/or use. The language used was purposed done so in order to make the person Aysiu disagrees with look foolish. Aysiu has his/her-self said in the past that he/she is not a programmer. Since he/she uses uses Ubuntu, then obviously you don't have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu.

    When you ask a question you already know the answer to, it's called a leading question, and it's not meant to foster conversation but rather as an underhanded insult.
    OK did I miss something? I think it is a good question and Im not a good judge of people just by reading there posts. I don't see it as trying to make anyone look foolish.

    I say no you don't have to be but I know where the question comes from. Windows users and people new to real computing like myself, see anything other than clicking on an icon (terminal) as programming. I know it's not, becuase I did some visual basic, but I can see where someone new to it would say, it all looks the same. Typing strange words and commands to make your computer do something seems a lot like programming if you don't know better.

    It is still difficult though at times.

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