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Thread: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

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    Exclamation Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    This is a very interesting thread, very specific to Ubuntu Women:

    http://mjg59.livejournal.com/

    It is particularly interesting that when a woman pointed out such a joke was against the Ubuntu code of conduct -- she was immediately attacked on her personal weblog.

    Kudos to Matthew Garrett for documenting the entire scenario (I read via kernel planet).

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    Your right it is an interesting series of events and documented nicely. I think she is definitely in the right in my mind. However that joke i think could have be said from the perspective of either gender and still be equally valid. I guess it was not the best place for that sort of joke.

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    That's rather interesting, indeed.

    Though I'm a woman, I didn't really find the joke insulting. (After all, many jokes are often offensive.)

    However, I can understand why Caroline felt it was against the rules of conduct.

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    In general though it's not a good idea to pick at generalisations. If there was a joke about men being strong yet lubering, foolish thick people who always seem to put their foot in their mouth and can't remember any relations or far flung friends to save their lives I bet most men would be offended and because such jokes arn't a cultural normality more men would speak up about it.

    After all when you identify with a social group, it chips away at your soul to have it's status deminished.
    42 is not an anwser, it's an error code. the universe is saying 'Error 42: meaning to universe not found'
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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    i was totally offended by the joke. i think that ALL people can be difficult to read and i don't appreciate the discussion of women like there's some kind of boys club. if people want to make those jokes in their social time it's their business (i won't be socializing with them), however in a public email list in a community where women are already marginalized (i mean general tech/linux) is completely insensitive and out of line. what i'm more appalled at is how the situation has been handled by various parties pointing fingers at Caroline as talking smack and slander as if to avoid the key issue. a simple apology will suffice and if the offended party doesn't wish to speak to you, let it go and focus on improving the community so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

    really is it so hard to say "I'm sorry" with no "but". (anything following "but" pretty much negates the "i'm sorry")

    if you are uncertain if a joke is offensive, try replacing "women" with a racial group and see how it goes over. women who are not offended by this type of humor have either internalized sexism or are extremely thick skinned (if you feel offended by this statement then just write me off as a radical feminist).

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    really is it so hard to say "I'm sorry" with no "but". (anything following "but" pretty much negates the "i'm sorry")
    Im not sure i agree that a "but" necessarily negates an "im sorry". I do not wish to discuss in context of this situation. I think because caroline was offended and the joke violated the code of conduct then it was inappropriate there is no but. In general terms however I often find myself saying something along the line of i am sorry you were hurt or this offended you it was not the intended purpose but i have a different opinion or i interpret the situation differently.

    I think it is possible to be completely and honestly sorry without needing to give in to the situation or bow to the other opinion.

    Does this make sense? What do you think?

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    I think it is possible to be completely and honestly sorry without needing to give in to the situation or bow to the other opinion.
    OK first off a well known trait of the male condition is not bowing down and being humble. not only is it a cultural thing but it's also a biological one. which makes it even more important to get humble and let go of the angst.

    "I'm sorry I was wrong, I will do anything you wish in order to correct my mistake."

    It's not that being arrogant doesn't have it's uses. but for admitting your wrong it's worth deactivating first. after all humble is the best tactic of diplomacy and the first test in making yourself a better person.
    42 is not an anwser, it's an error code. the universe is saying 'Error 42: meaning to universe not found'
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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorMO View Post
    OK first off a well known trait of the male condition is not bowing down and being humble. not only is it a cultural thing but it's also a biological one. which makes it even more important to get humble and let go of the angst.

    "I'm sorry I was wrong, I will do anything you wish in order to correct my mistake."

    It's not that being arrogant doesn't have it's uses. but for admitting your wrong it's worth deactivating first. after all humble is the best tactic of diplomacy and the first test in making yourself a better person.
    I would like to point out, that I think we should not sit here in the relative safety of our girl's club and call men arrogant, while talking about how inappropriate it is on other Ubuntu arenas it is to discuss a women's stereotypes. Whether you're a man or a woman.

    If you look at evolutionary psychology, it seems to be innate in us to be "right" (or arrogant as you put it)... whether you're male or female. Women just have a different way of showing our arrogance.

    That is the fundemental need of all mankind, is to be right. To be right lends us to want to be accepted (if we're accepted, it means we must be doing things right). The only way we can survive whether it be killing animals in the wild, or making a living being a lawyer, is by doing it correctly. If you aren't right, you don't survive. You will break down physically or mentally. For women, the need to be right usually develops more into a social thing, trying to be like everyone else, because that shows you must be doing it correctly.

    So we're we're all trying to be right, we're all arrogant, we all don't listen to each other, especially when we're afraid the other is right and we're wrong (we can't bare the thought of ourselves being wrong!). And maybe we should just get over the fact that that whole kindergarden "We're all unique" thing isn't totally true...

    We're all the same, no matter what you got in your pants, what side of the spectrum, or what shade of grey, or lack of shade, may be.

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    Women just have a different way of showing our arrogance.
    Agreed,

    I'm not saying that all men and all women; it seems to be a biological thing as you point out. I know I fight it every day within myself. My point is that in this instance the male "side" of cultural normality of being crule is wrong and that just accepting your wrong would be better for everyone; mostly the males.
    42 is not an anwser, it's an error code. the universe is saying 'Error 42: meaning to universe not found'
    Programmer, Teacher and Artist

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    Re: Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by daynah View Post
    I would like to point out, that I think we should not sit here in the relative safety of our girl's club and call men arrogant, while talking about how inappropriate it is on other Ubuntu arenas it is to discuss a women's stereotypes. Whether you're a man or a woman.
    Haha this irony did not occur to me.

    I find a big difference between ubuntuland where the code of conduct is the law and other places that have their own explicit rules or even non at all. When there is explicit law in a voluntary community it must be followed in order to participate in the community.

    It takes great courage and reveals a wise soul when a person can change their opinion and announce it during a discussion. I think that right and wrong are subjective and hence it is possible to both disagree on an issue and be apologetic for the harm and discomfort caused before that disagreement in opinions was discovered.

    I digress off topic but I wonder about communities where participation is not voluntary but required. What is the status of laws in a community such as this. What power can anyone really have to enforce laws that imposed rather than chosen and agreed upon.

    Sorry I will get my big head out of here and try not to change the line of discussion.

    :~)

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