I dont think that the votes will or should have direct impact on the devs, but they will have an indirect impact, see question 2.Originally Posted by aysiu;26737871. Will the votes have any impact (directly or indirectly) on actual development? [i
On a side note I did make a post about interesting idea requests that I have seen on the forums.
Edit: Did people want to put this on the Forum Council Agenda to talk about?
Last edited by earobinson; May 18th, 2007 at 05:25 AM.
Edward A Robinson -- www.earobinson.org
Originally Posted by earobinsonTo repeat once again, a voting system would have its uses, but the disadvantages outweigh them. Knowing what the community wants shouldn't be about looking at a few numbers, and as said before, those numbers are doomed to be misleading.Originally Posted by earobinson
Keeping telling people that what they're doing by voting isn't binding will be a significant extra burden, and it will cause plenty of drama that's uncalled for and that will further interfere with the whole process. And it would reinforce the already existing misunderstanding that all people have to do is post an idea thread or a spec and that will be it, someone will pick it up and start working on it at some point, and if they don't, they're at fault. And in doing that, it will make life harder for the moderators and ambassadors in the development forum, who are already overworked.Originally Posted by earobinson
People already have a tendency to flock to the controversial and sensational proposals, and an implementation of Digg-esque sensationalism will only reinforce that, giving mere numbers an apparent lead over substance. Focus will shift further towards quantity from quality. The way systems are set up very much influences the kind of outcome that they produce, and online social collaboration systems are no exception; the medium is the message. If you give people the impression that numbers count for something, they'll behave accordingly, and what you'll end up with will be closer to a popularity contest than a genuine collaborative environment, where forum users will be actively involved in the possible realization of the ideas they're putting forward. The latter is what we want to see.
If you do, you can go ahead and put it yourself, assuming you'll attend the meeting and make a case there.Originally Posted by earobinson
Last edited by 23meg; May 18th, 2007 at 09:10 AM.
To repeat it again: people are not stupid and they know when voting has direct implications and when it hasn't.
While a deeper involvement for any proposal by the proponents might be sometimes desirable, despising ideas and proposals just because the proponent are unable or unwilling to undertake them themselves is idiotic. Criticism and discussion are very valuable and help the actual developers of the ideas to gain some perspective they won't be able to have otherwise. As a matter of fact, in many respects, it is desirable that the critic be a different person from a different environment than the developer of a particular proposal. This is far from being a misunderstanding. In fact, the misunderstanding comes from expecting that everyone who has something to say, also must have something to do about it.
@earobinson: if your blog is the result of forum combing to find the most requested features, you have done a terrific job that puts the bureaucracy of the forum ambassadors implementation to shame. If I were a developer I'd probably visit your top ten list instead of having formal meetings with the forum ambassadors. If your top ten list is just your personal favourites list, I suggest you make it less personal and it'll be a valuable resource indeed.
Last edited by sicofante; May 18th, 2007 at 10:14 AM.
As I stated before, I'd only like the "brainstorming", which is pretty much what's been done in Idea Pool, to be separated in some way from more active participation, or the two not interfering with each other. I'm not despising or ruling out general discussion and criticism altogether, and nobody else is; it would indeed be idiotic.While a deeper involvement for any proposal by the proponents might be sometimes desirable, despising ideas and proposals just because the proponent are unable or unwilling to undertake them themselves is idiotic. Criticism and discussion are very valuable and help the actual developers of the ideas to gain some perspective they won't be able to have otherwise. As a matter of fact, in many respects, it is desirable that the critic be a different person from a different environment than the developer of a particular proposal. This is far from being a misunderstanding. In fact, the misunderstanding comes from expecting that everyone who has something to say, also must have something to do about it.
Entirely out of coincidence, the Forum Ambassadors team happens to have incorporated all but one of the ideas in that list that were submitted before UDS-Sevilla and that weren't already covered in existing approved specs into the gutsy-forumideas spec, as well as attending its UDS discussion with three members, and that one exception (6) is an upstream job that would create a pretty big delta with GNOME, which the Ubuntu developers refuse to carry a patch for (not that the patch exists anyway).@earobinson: if your blog is the result of forum combing to find the most requested features, you have done a terrific job that puts the bureaucracy of the forum ambassadors implementation to shame. If I were a developer I'd probably visit your top ten list instead of having formal meetings with the forum ambassadors. If your top ten list is just your personal favourites list, I suggest you make it less personal and it'll be a valuable resource indeed.
Out of the forum ambassadors names that I recognize I have extreme confidence in them all (in fact some of my favorite posters are in that list and I got my membership at the same time as one of them), they do a great job on the forums and I'm sure they will do a great job as ambassadors for us all. I'm pretty sure that I have seen them post in every post in that list.
At the start of this thread I was unsure if voting would be a good thing or not and you can see what I said above.
Edward A Robinson -- www.earobinson.org
It'd be something that the developers would look at - the recent post on planet about the top 10 things wanted by someone from ubuntu was quite interesting.
But they'd be viewed more as suggestions - and I doubt that people would drop what they were interested in implementing, just to implement one of the suggestions. Unless they were particularly interested in it of course.
And the closing of threads was something I originally suggested (i think) - it's only to try and organise the threads into good ones, and ones that wont happen. This is needed if the idea section is to be a productive place. Of course, if you just want the section to be a free-for-all "put my idea out there", but never seriously read and thought upon by people outside the forums - go ahead. But then dont expect the majority of your ideas to be in ubuntu either - if they are, it'll have been because someone else thought of it, and put it somewhere useful and found someone, maybe themselves, who was also interested in it, to implement it.
Why not just allow everyone to rate threads again? This would be the most elegant solution. It wouldn't require anything new to be implemented in the forums. As it stands, the thread rating feature is so underutilized that sorting threads by rating is useless. Why was this restricted to staff in the first place?
For some time now I have been thinking on a website around Ideastorm idea.
Two basic ideas :
- Help users express their ideas/opinions about Linux software. The goal is to quantitatively assess the user base demand. I.e. having as much people as possible participating.
- Help current developpers know their user base demand, and help prospective developpers find something fun to do that is widely asked.
I personnaly consider myself part of the second group of the second item
I have read something similar a few months ago on this forum , and I have already written a spec around this idea for launchpad . I strongly believe such a website has some potential. You may or may not agree with me, i think the idea has already been widely debated .
Now I'm seriously considering starting the project.
Let's say I will start it!
Now i would like to start some brainstorming on this brainstorming website And some good wills wanting to join the project too!
Right now, my ideas (anything, in no order, even crazy ones):
- Front page a la Ideastorm.
- Separation of the concept of idea and opinion. Idea is something new, to create. Opinion is a piece of feedback on current software.
- Submission of idea must be simple. Title and desc. Program name optional. Some part editable by users (e.g. program name) to let skilled users correct mistakes.
- Not ubuntu-specific. It should be extended to whole FOSS area.
- Ideas/opinions could be sorted by program. Sub-domains. E.g. amarok.xxxx.org. = Easy way for program to link to their "own" dedicated page.
- A program (e.g. the amarok admin) could be asked to be added to the program list. Requires website admin approval. Maybe non-FOSS later, with a price to help finance the servers.
- Administrative part for the admins of a program. They could use this to "answer" to ideas in a "official" way. (Not like current dell's answer, in the flow of comments).
- Promote a way to add link to the website in the "Help" menu, under "report a bug" : "post a wish" and/or "give your opinion".
- Put a way for user to add a bounty on a wish. Bounties could accumutate and make a big prize. (Not really fan of this idea, but i had to put it)
- A webpage concerning a program, and where user can put opinion. Users should be able to evaluate parts of the software in a quantitative manner (e.g. 5 stars) and with a optionnal comment field.
Not sure at all about the "opinion" part, just trying some ideas to extend the ideastorm idea...
This is a small mess, but from it and from your ideas, i think we can come to something nice
Sounds good to me.
I'd say there are quite a few issues and requests that crop up repeatedly in the forums, but aren't being addressed by developers. A brainstorming website could really help bridge the gap.
Don't get me wrong - developers have addressed a lot of issues in Ubuntu Feisty for Ubuntu Gutsy, but there are still quite a few out there.
Here are some of my favourite issues, which I guess would be the sort of thing that might feature on a brainstorming site.
- Automatic configuration of all mouse buttons - this one seems to run and run! A perennial annoyance for newbs...
- Synchronisation with mobile (inc Ubuntu mobile!) devices - This is probably dependent on OpenSync, and is a good example of a feature that could require a lot of work from both Ubuntu and upstream developers to implement well.
- Gnome based support for TV / PVR / DVB / EPG - Ubuntu is crying out for some media centre functionality including decent TV viewing, recording and editing software. Kaffeine and DVBCut are both good tools, but neither looks right in Gnome, and Kaffeine doesn't compare to the best windows based applications (Nebula DigiTV)
- When are 32bit and 64bit going to get equal treatment? - 32bit always seems to be used as the lowest common denominator, despite the huge proportion of 64bit machines out there.
So while it might appear that I am hijacking the thread, are these the sorts of issues that you'd imagined might feature on a brainstorming site?