Proposal: Subforum for Advanced Tips/Users [Formerly titled "Ubuntu for Adults"]

[mephisto786]

Thought that tiltle might get noticed...

Given the slow and unsteady progress in Debian these days, and the success of Ubuntu on many fronts, I feel I have to address this issue, with no malicious intenttions.....

I run Drake, among other systems as a viable debian based system, which releases regulary and updates well. And I've read the docs and codes of conduct and try to help and get help from forums and irc....which is where the problem comes in.

Not all users of Ubuntu are new to linux. Not all users use it because it is easy and popular. There are ideas and goals of this project that go way beyond that. But when trying to utilize the forums and irc one finds onceself bogged down in adolescent babble, misinformation, and general newbieness that tends to grate after a while.

Proposal? #ubuntu-advanced channels? A new section on the forums for advanced linux users who wish to support the project, as it seems the most viable debian based distro atm?

IN brief, a large part of the community is well served, but another sector is overlooked entirely...........sad when an ubuntu user has to go and get support from debian channels or deb central.....finding more obscure config options, talking more directly with devs or real advocates (as opposed to fanboys and fantatics) becomes a real chore as this distro reaches a wider user base... but im not sure how to go about becomiing invovled in such an effort. Ubuntu-offtopic isnt an answer..... I do feel that sections on forums and a new channel or two for people who want to power use this distro is fast becoming necessary, or if it exists, that it be more prominently displayed. Any ideas on how to kickstart some of these ideas,so people who wanna support ubuntu don't feel caught up in all the 'preciousness' ?

Looking forward to some positive feedback. I suppose if the post recieves 'you dont like it move on' or ' ubuntu rockz' feedback, that too is an answer. I'm already signed on to launchpad, but as far as community goes, that is hardly enough.....To be blunt, i avoid much of this forum which isnt the case with equally new user friendly distros.......how bout it guys?

Peace
.

[%hMa@?b<C]

Thought that tiltle might get noticed...

Given the slow and unsteady progress in Debian these days, and the success of Ubuntu on many fronts, I feel I have to address this issue, with no malicious intenttions.....

I run Drake, among other systems as a viable debian based system, which releases regulary and updates well. And I've read the docs and codes of conduct and try to help and get help from forums and irc....which is where the problem comes in.

Not all users of Ubuntu are new to linux. Not all users use it because it is easy and popular. There are ideas and goals of this project that go way beyond that. But when trying to utilize the forums and irc one finds onceself bogged down in adolescent babble, misinformation, and general newbieness that tends to grate after a while.

Proposal? #ubuntu-advanced channels? A new section on the forums for advanced linux users who wish to support the project, as it seems the most viable debian based distro atm?

IN brief, a large part of the community is well served, but another sector is overlooked entirely...........sad when an ubuntu user has to go and get support from debian channels or deb central.....finding more obscure config options, talking more directly with devs or real advocates (as opposed to fanboys and fantatics) becomes a real chore as this distro reaches a wider user base... but im not sure how to go about becomiing invovled in such an effort. Ubuntu-offtopic isnt an answer..... I do feel that sections on forums and a new channel or two for people who want to power use this distro is fast becoming necessary, or if it exists, that it be more prominently displayed. Any ideas on how to kickstart some of these ideas,so people who wanna support ubuntu don't feel caught up in all the 'preciousness' ?

Looking forward to some positive feedback. I suppose if the post recieves 'you dont like it move on' or ' ubuntu rockz' feedback, that too is an answer. I'm already signed on to launchpad, but as far as community goes, that is hardly enough.....To be blunt, i avoid much of this forum which isnt the case with equally new user friendly distros.......how bout it guys?

Peace
.

I really have to disagree with you. I feel that the community here is more helpful than any other foum I have ever been a member of. Sure, It would be nice for an "advanced user" section, but then all of the noobs with simple questions would put them there, thinking that it will get answered more quickly.

[PriceChild]

I don't think this will, nor do I want this to ever happen.

This would only bring "elitism" in which is never a good thing. That's the end of argument, short and sweet.

Pricey

[mips]

I really don't mind using debian resources, in fact I actually like them (especially the documentation).

[meng]

I have heard that IRC support is not that good, but I have found these forums to be wonderful. There is the occasional puerile outburst (I wouldn't say adolescent, particularly as many members are in fact adolescents in the strict sense of the word) but in the main it's great.

[justin whitaker]

I'm going to agree with Pricey on this.

If anything, the recent spate of "OMG this or that broke" shows me that not enough time and attention is being paid to bring the neophytes along.

For example: how about all of those "my usb drive has disappeared" threads? Most of them do not have a single answer. You cannot tell me that someone in this forum does not have the answer. There are some very very smart people here.

For each of those people with a hardware or software issue, Ubuntu is not "precious": it is bewildering, difficult, broken, hard, and ultimately a negative experience.

My thoughts are that people should not be looking for self aggrandizement, for validation, in an operating system. If someone is so uber, then they should be trying to act as a guru and help out. Period. Write a how-to. Document something.

Paying it forward and back, so to speak.

If you were looking for positive feedback, I'm sorry, I can't give it. We need to be better at helping each other, not making arbitrary divisions in the Ubuntu community.

[mephisto786]

Theres a difference between elitism and competence. Mainly , that elitism is barred from the forums because of the code of conduct. Why wade through many general and not quite appropriate sections when people want a place that has lets say ' remastering your own live cd' or compilation options?

To each his own, but this is the least useful forum i have used, and ive used forums from mandriva and PCLinuxOS to slackware and bsd....and debian is tricky because if you say Im on Ubuntu, theres usually a flame war, heh

If you like it, great, how do addtl options destroy what you like? If literal adolescents are at home here, fine.....im not an adolescent tho. I sense a certain resistance to add on to a version of an OS that is capable of providing choice, not limiting to what people feel is 'the right and only way; or envisioning disastrous outcomes to changes in the forms of add on forum sections and perhaps another irc channel....

I have seen a few distros simply post a warninng on their andvanced configurations section, or whatever title you choose....explicitly stating that most folks shouldnt try this at home, without a sense of possible consequences or getting in over ones head.

No offense, but what I see is a resistance to change and growth in some responses, rather than the signs of a distro trying to tackle a community, an enterprise and a growing community of devs and innovators.....which suprises me.

Im hoping people grasp one point thru all this ranting o mine, heh. That I'd rather stick with a great distro doing a great job for many.....rather than move onto something else...so these comments are meant as constructive......working from number of distros and as an advocate, surely people are aware there is a backlash among linux users about ubuntu......which i feel - if i could recommend places that people comfortable with debian or slackware could use as ubuntu support, might lessen the blowback that haslabeled ubuntu the dumbed down debian or the afrikan word for cant install slackware.....and assume that knocking such arguments out of the water would be a good thing for this distros continued success.

No ones removing what you like, think of it as more of an optional plugin

cheers

[mips]

For example: how about all of those "my usb drive has disappeared" threads? Most of them do not have a single answer. You cannot tell me that someone in this forum does not have the answer. There are some very very smart people here.

For each of those people with a hardware or software issue, Ubuntu is not "precious": it is bewildering, difficult, broken, hard, and ultimately a negative experience.

My thoughts are that people should not be looking for self aggrandizement, for validation, in an operating system. If someone is so uber, then they should be trying to act as a guru and help out. Period. Write a how-to. Document something.

Paying it forward and back, so to speak.

If you were looking for positive feedback, I'm sorry, I can't give it. We need to be better at helping each other, not making arbitrary divisions in the Ubuntu community.

The problem is it gets very tiring answering the same thing over and over and over. The issue has been dealt with many times. I would say about 90% of the questions asked here haven asked before and a solution provided.

I used to be very active in the networking section and then it just became tiring. So I started proving links to possible solutions which I still had to search for. Lately even that is to much.

Now if i spot something obvious I will just provide a link and say "Look into DNS". Some individuals will quite happily use this pointer and start searching and find a solution or hack two post together to sort it out themselves and you can see the sense of achievement once they get it working.

Others might start of on their own and get stuck but you can generally see they are trying and persevere. In this instance I will usually jump in and try and help to the best of my ability.

Then you get the guy asking something that has not been asked before and technical where he does not get a response, here I will also jump in as i see it as a learning opportunity for myself and helping someone out in the process if I do get it right.

Others like to be spoon fed to the point of expecting everything on a silver platter and then have the audacity to moan about people trying to help them but it doesn't work. The other day I gave someone a two pointers to a problem. Someone piped up that it was a pretty lame answer. The OP worked with the pointers though and solved his own problem.

The amount of help & encouragement people get from this community is far in excess of what they might receive elsewhere. Very few individuals here come across as elitist. If you tried to ask some of the questions asked here elsewhere you might just end up feeling like crawling under a rock.

This is a voluntary effort from all parties and not perfect. Geez the support here is better than most paid support I have seen.

I'm babbling. what I'm trying to say is that we are human and get tired. And when we see the same question again we just pretend we did not see it or silently hope someone else answers it.

Btw. I HATE writing documentation, but when I see something good I suggest to the poster to write a howto and post it into the relevant section but then again how many people actually go and read the howtos or the wiki or the UDSF ?

And I'm tired of people bitching about broken beta software, it's beta don't go there. How many Beryl threads here ? Beryl is Beta why are you expecting it to be stable ? I myself don't even use beta stuff as i prefer stability over eyecandy and annoying wobbly windows which adds very little functionality to my desktop.

Phew! I feel better now.

[mephisto786]

For each of those people with a hardware or software issue, Ubuntu is not "precious": it is bewildering, difficult, broken, hard, and ultimately a negative experience.

My thoughts are that people should not be looking for self aggrandizement, for validation, in an operating system. If someone is so uber, then they should be trying to act as a guru and help out. Period. Write a how-to. Document something.

Paying it forward and back, so to speak.

If you were looking for positive feedback, I'm sorry, I can't give it. We need to be better at helping each other, not making arbitrary divisions in the Ubuntu community. >>

Many good points.... to clarify......im not advocating a real fork called Adult Ubuntu, its the same ubuntu we all use....and it isnt precous, but many of the attitudes are. That there is nothing wrong, that is the best, that it rockz....that someone with six weeks will give wrong advice to someon on forums cause they dont know but feel theyve mastered linux......which is in a sense, the very aggrandizement you are wary of.

I mentioned i submit bug reports, I also spend (spent ) time on irc helping folks configure and install.....but with 900 plus users it tends to ger real fast and blurry.....

There is no sense in segmenting a community....true.....but how does this do that? it gives people who might be 'guru' types a place to find other gurus who can help them out without the mosh pitt feel of the huge official forum......hope that clears up my intent in posting this. I say spent time on irc, because theres a lot of white noise that goes on in the name of ubuntu that may actually detract from folks getting the simple sane help they need...

To shut down options on the community (not that you guys are doing that, this is a discussion) is simply the flip side of the 'elitist; worries.......a community of fanboys misleading the new user, while driving many others away in frustration.......if , however , you are reading into my comments that i wish to use ubuntu to promote , define, or self aggandize myself, then the discussion becomes moot......because a) if i wanna do that ill install gentoo and b) it would be quite easy to drop ubuntu and go to a distro that reeks of elitism, and difficulty. Did I mention, there is too much community possibility here to walk away from, in spite of a certain degree of frustration with the present status quo?

cheers

[PriceChild]

If you want expert help on these forums, then post a good detailed thread, with a good title (not "omg help asap please!!!") in the appropriate section, and the best the forums have to offer will try and help. If you don't get replies then bump it after say 6 hours so a different timezone gets a look.

If we made "elite" forums... who gets to decide who gets in? How good do you have to be to get in? I regularly see people give absolutely genius replies with solutions that work perfectly on their 2nd or 3rd post.... you want to stop them coming into the "elite" section?

Pricey