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Thread: Announcing Ubuntu Women

  1. #221
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitWho View Post
    I already said if you want to segregate yourself that's fine, just count me out!
    I won't bother correcting your other misconceptions about the project, but this one is important.

    The project does not seek to segregate women in the slightest, all of us are members of the wider project, and many of us also contribute to projects upstream such as Debian and KDE. This is simply a place where some of us choose to spend time to encourage each other, because whether you choose to believe us or not, the truth is that there are specific barriers that most women entering F/OSS face and these barriers cause some to give up. We'd like to see this trend reversed.

    You might also want to check out the Ubuntu Women FAQ
    Elizabeth Krumbach // pleia2 // lyz@ubuntu.com
    http://princessleia.com

  2. #222
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Bit View Post
    Just so you know, alot of us women and girls do not "take feminism seriously" either. It has become a militant man-hating example of political correctness run amok, and I want no part of it. Too much damage has been done in the name of feminism, and its silly assumptions about women as "victims" of unfair treatment by evil, brutish males.
    Awww not all feminists are feminazis. Just the intersection of feminists and jerks. Some just really do want to be treated equally, not to put down guys.

    LinuxChix | Linux User #432169 | Ubuntu User #8495 | IRC: maco @ irc.linuxchix.org or irc.freenode.net

  3. #223
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitWho View Post
    I did not diss any of you! Not once! I Except for whoever the teenager was that wrote that horrible backwards "wiki" as she claimed to speak for me. Constantly refering to women as "us" and then saying ridiculous things about "us" and how "we" feel about things.
    I already said if you want to segregate yourself that's fine, just count me out!
    Regarding the wiki...maybe see Why We Document? The gist of it is so that there's something we can point to when people say "I've never noticed sexism in open source, thus there is none." Yes, well...I've never seen a black swan, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    LinuxChix | Linux User #432169 | Ubuntu User #8495 | IRC: maco @ irc.linuxchix.org or irc.freenode.net

  4. #224
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Apart from Valerie Solanas, I've never met or read a man-hating feminist. Most of the man-haters I know are decidedly non-feminist or anti-feminist. Feminism isn't about hating men. It's about hating the patriarchy, which at once both privileges and damages men. Patriarchy ultimately isn't good for anyone. I'm a man and have never felt hated by any feminist.

  5. #225
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Mmmm... Just kindof my 'umbrella'-type personal two-cents regarding the erm... heated argument going on >_> Detailed as follows:

    As a blue-eyed Redhead with fair skin (which is a relatively rare complextion where I come from/grew up), I was always sort of 'different'. Never quite normal enough to be ignored, but nowhere near smart enough to warran that sort of attention. >_> Without going into a needlessly long personal history (Which most who know me personally will affirm that I am well capable of doing) I'll tell it plainly that I have a somewhat unique response to being 'singled-out' as a female in a techy field.

    For instance, from middle school through my High School graduation, I was very involved with technology, and I mostly hung out with my guy friends who also found interest in techy stuff. It is fair to say that I thrive in the spotlight (but not on stage, I love attention), and a fair number of the tech classes I took had 1 female amidst 19 hormonal boys. (Yes, -boys-, they weren't mature enough to warrant any other term =P) That aside, however, I enjoyed being the only chick in the class, and thrived on the knowledge that I was as good and a little better than at least half the class.

    I took the challenge of being a minority (in more than one way) and I thrived on it. I've been this way for a long time, and I probably won't ever change. ((I currently love being the only redheaded student in my Arabic class, it totally rocks! Especially when I know the answers XP)) I wouldn't go so far as to classify myself as having 'tough-skin', because I do get down sometimes, and the comments (previously mentioned, as I've witnessed many) are occasionally too much to turn into fuel to overcome the challenge.

    I changed to Linux for a number of reasons, one of the smaller ones being that it presented a challenge, and was often looked upon with respect from programmers in the tech field. Phrases like, "Wow! Linux?! That's hard, isn't it?", to which I try to reply to as accurately as I can, are things I often hear now. I enjoy the respect that some bestow upon me, not because I'm a chick who knows her way (at least mediocrely) around a computer system (let alone Linux), or because I'm a female who uses Linux, but because I'm able to use Linux -at all, period-.

    One of the things that I haven't experienced a bunch of is the reports of 'feminism', etc. Perhaps it is just because I haven't been here long enough, or mabye (through my history) I just don't hear them the same way anymore and I don't notice them. But I know I don't have 'tough-skin', and yet, here I am: alive and well.

    Truth be told, it would be nice to have a few friendly pointers to threads that are beneficial to the beginner Linux user, regardless of gender, as Linux is generally a somewhat intimidating OS to even think of, let alone speak... and don't even consider -trying- it. In that sense, the same thing that makes Linux respected (as I referenced above), in the sense of it not being anything to be sneezed at, combined with a moderate lack of a mass-collection of links and things to help us beginners get on our way to Linux 'stardom'.

    As a general note and suggestion, I would like to see one of these 'link hubs' for Linux newbs crop up from the hands of the experienced, who know what comprises the basic building blocks of Ubuntu/Linx/what-have-you, and which paint color goes well with the couch. What I mean by that is, I want to know where to begin, the next five steps (or so), and then have a nice friendly pointer in the direction I'm headed. I'm not asking for anyone to tell me exactly how to build my User Interface or everything I'll need for all the programs I'll want down the road (that's pretty ridiculous to want that sort of detail). In less words: A Linux newb friendly skeleton guide for starting up a successful system. Whether that includes learning my way around the shell or bash scripting, or if all I really need for now is a good up-to-date-version of Wine (or what-have-you), those are the sorts of things that would be nice to know.


    I know I said I wouldn't make it long, and I do recall using the phrase 'two-cents'.... but in my defense: I do have a rather talkative nature (see 'loving spotlight', referenced above), and by that token, I have a somewhat different view of what is a 'short' description. I've been known to tell people why a potatoe should be in x-location in the process of telling them who put it there. >_> 10minutes for a 1 word answer.

    Hopefully my intent is clear, but I'll insert a safety disclaimer here: I meant to step on no toes, and in no way 'take-a-side', the story related herein should be treated excatly as such: my story, nobody else has to agree or disagree, just accept that I'm entitled to my own opinions ^_~*


    Much love and peace,
    Elisavan

    P.S. - (Did I mention: I love being here, and I'm very glad that this thread is here. It gives women a common ground to come back to, bounce off of, share insight in, offer moral support (when things go awry), and a multitude of unforeseen benefits. I am pleased, and I can't help but look forward to meeting everyone!)

  6. #226
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Elisavan View Post
    As a general note and suggestion, I would like to see one of these 'link hubs' for Linux newbs crop up from the hands of the experienced, who know what comprises the basic building blocks of Ubuntu/Linx/what-have-you, and which paint color goes well with the couch. What I mean by that is, I want to know where to begin, the next five steps (or so), and then have a nice friendly pointer in the direction I'm headed. I'm not asking for anyone to tell me exactly how to build my User Interface or everything I'll need for all the programs I'll want down the road (that's pretty ridiculous to want that sort of detail). In less words: A Linux newb friendly skeleton guide for starting up a successful system. Whether that includes learning my way around the shell or bash scripting, or if all I really need for now is a good up-to-date-version of Wine (or what-have-you), those are the sorts of things that would be nice to know.
    Given this goal, you may be interested in getting involved with the Beginners Team. They have a presence on the forums, IRC and have all kinds of teams that help with the kind of documentation for folks who are new to Ubuntu. I think your suggestion would be useful to them, especially if you were willing to work on it and collaborate with them to weave it into existing documentation
    Elizabeth Krumbach // pleia2 // lyz@ubuntu.com
    http://princessleia.com

  7. #227
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitWho View Post
    I did not diss any of you! Not once! I Except for whoever the teenager was that wrote that horrible backwards "wiki" as she claimed to speak for me. Constantly refering to women as "us" and then saying ridiculous things about "us" and how "we" feel about things.
    I already said if you want to segregate yourself that's fine, just count me out!
    Hi Rabbit,

    I have read your posts on this forum and could not agree with you more. I myself have several posts on this thread from a few years ago (starting on page 8 ).

    I also over reacted a bit as I find anything that even hints of gender segregation, affirmative action etc, offensive. I guess that is because I believe I live in a modern world where everyone is equal. If I hear someone say that they need a safe place to shield themselves from my world, or need special rules to elevate them to my perceived level, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

    I am trying to come to terms with this kind of issue and hope that in time, it will just go away.

    The way I see it, there are 3 worlds trying to exist at the same time.
    1. The New World - everyone is equal and treated the same.
    2. The Transition World - People waiting to go to the new world etc.
    3. The Old World - Male dominated, segregation, inequality etc.


    People like me are happily living in the New World. We do not see gender, race etc when interacting with others in our world. If we see oppression / racism etc we are outraged, but we believe that the instigator is from the Old World and their actions will not be tolerated.
    We think that people in the Old World are idiots and luckily, all but extinct, as we don't see them often in our world. We have little patients for people in the Transition World as we see them as holding on to the memories of, or being influenced by the Old World, and not joining us in the New World. We feel that everyone just needs to wipe the slate clean, forget about the Old World and move into the New World so we can all just get on with life.

    The Transition World is filled with 2 kinds of people.
    1)People that want to live in the New World, but either don't believe it exists yet, or don't trust it enough due to interactions with Old World people.
    2)People that want a bunch of permanent segregation and rules to make people safe and keep things fair. They seem to feel that this is “good” segregation as apposed to the Old World “bad” segregation.
    The 1st group live in Transition World as there are safe houses where people live while they wait for the New World to be born, or if they believe it exists, they are waiting to heal or get stronger before they move there.
    The 2nd group will always be in conflict with New World people as they believe New World is just a Myth. Both worlds are incompatible.

    Transition World people don't like Old World people (who would). Some are scared of them, some are just tired of dealing with them. Transition World people can be frustrated with New World people, as New World people just don't understand the Transition Worlds issues. They feel they need their safe places where they will be sheltered from Old World people. New World people resent Transition World people as they feel mistrusted by them. They strive to be the opposite of Old World people but feel like Transition people do not believe they will, or can, do the right thing.

    So.... the Old World will die out as generations progress. The question is, what will we be left with. Is it possible that we will all live in the New world were little things like "Ubuntu Women" will not spark debates like this? Will there be a need (or perceived need) for such a thing?

    I for one hope there will not, but for now I am will to consede that it is possible the some people live in a world where it is needed for now, and that it is not because of people like me
    -OG-

  8. #228
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaf View Post
    1)People that want to live in the New World, but either don't believe it exists yet, or don't trust it enough due to interactions with Old World people.
    I am going to have to disagree a bit here, or at least seek clarification. In the case of myself and many other women in tech the issue has nothing to do with belief or trust, we have encountered situations where we were directly and specifically discriminated against because of our gender. In some cases the person doing the discrimination openly admits they believe women aren't smart enough, or that they believe women don't belong in tech, or that the only reason we have our jobs is because of favoritism (or more crude accusations). In the extreme cases women have even received death threats (this is not a rumor I heard, I received one due to my involvement with Debian in 2006, the email was very explicit and several women in the project received them). This still happens, "believing" one way or the other is not going to change this, there is clear evidence that a problem still exists.

    So.... the Old World will die out as generations progress. The question is, what will we be left with. Is it possible that we will all live in the New world were little things like "Ubuntu Women" will not spark debates like this? Will there be a need (or perceived need) for such a thing?
    The goal for the Ubuntu Women project is to not be required anymore. I look forward to the day when we can shut down this forum, our mailing list an all our other resources
    Elizabeth Krumbach // pleia2 // lyz@ubuntu.com
    http://princessleia.com

  9. #229
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    1)People that want to live in the New World, but either don't believe it exists yet, or don't trust it enough due to interactions with Old World people.
    Quote Originally Posted by elizabeth View Post
    I am going to have to disagree a bit here, or at
    least seek clarification. In the case of myself and many other women in tech the issue has nothing to do with belief or trust, we have encountered situations where we were directly and specifically discriminated against because of our gender.
    Well.... I don't pretend that this model is a perfect fit for everyone.... it is just my personal way of trying to make sense of an obviously sticky subject for a lot of us. Many of us want the same result, but due to our own points of view and experiences, we believe in two different ways of achieving the same result.

    Before I go any further, let me say that I am in NO WAY judging you or trivialising the bad experiences you have had. Having never experienced anything that extreme myself I have no way of knowing how I would react.

    In the situation that you have described, I would see the victim of those actions as not trusting the New World due to interactions with Old Word people...... and for good reason. I mean death threats over an operating system... wow.... that is insanity! When I say "they do not trust the New World", I was not saying "and that is wrong", only that they are stuck there for now due to experiences with Old World people that they can not get over yet.


    I think there are a few understandable reasons may men and woman don't like the idea of "safe zones" for a particular group.

    1) Some feel like they are being labeled as the enemy based on gender / ethnicity etc... stereotyped if you will...

    2) Some people feel misrepresented.... like they are being told that their gender / group etc is weak or inferior etc, and to make it worse, it is coming from within.

    3) Some people feel that others are simply too thin skinned and want them to just stand up for themselves.


    To make it more complicated, all of the above reasons are "right on the money" some of the time, and completely wrong other times. We humans often take the first experience we have and it becomes "the way is always is".

    My person belief is that there are unfortunately times where protection and segregation is needed. Halfway homes for battered people for example. I hate that we need them in this day and age, but there is obviously a need.

    My issue is that SOMETIMES people can go over board (just my opinion) and that just makes things worce. In my opinion there is just as much anti men "stuff" in this world as there is anti women "stuff".

    Some of the big ones for women are work (position and pay) equality.
    Some for men are custody and support equality. (I have seen many victims of this first hand).
    Much of this foolishness came from the slow but steady change from the Old World (when men went to work and women raised the kids) to the New World where men and women do both. Between the cost of living and the divorce rate leading to single parents, we are all doing double duties.... this childish BS just has to go.

    To me the best approach it to change the old ways, not build walls to keep them at bay. I feel on an online OS support group is an example of this. We as a community need to encourage those who are nervous or have had bad experiences with individuals to join us. Those who do not play by the rules will be banished. Death threats are one thing, dealing with idiots making stupid remarks is another.

    Anyway, I could go on and on (actually I think I just did!) with my ideology on how to build and maintain utopia.
    Last edited by OldGaf; January 10th, 2010 at 08:47 PM.
    -OG-

  10. #230
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    Re: Announcing Ubuntu Women

    I, too, once naively thought sexism was a thing of the past. Then I experienced it.

    LinuxChix | Linux User #432169 | Ubuntu User #8495 | IRC: maco @ irc.linuxchix.org or irc.freenode.net

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