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Thread: When will it "actually" happen?

  1. #31
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Yes, It is our fault. We are all to blame for not using the GNU Herd operating system.

    GNU Herd was supposed to be the monolithic FOSS operating system. How come it did not happen that way? That fellow Linus Torvalds came along and invited programmers/hackers to help him develop a microkernel called minix. I am of the opinion that Richard Stallman was unable to do the same. He had personally written the software tools that could be used to write computer programs. I think he wanted to use those tools to write the FOSS operating system that he wanted and could not open development of it up to other programmers. Of course, I could be completely wrong about Richard Stallman.

    There was a short period of time when it would have been possible to develop the one and only FOSS operating system and the moment passed. Not only that the principles of FOSS make it all too easy to fork the code and go your own way if you, as a programmer, do not like the direction the project leader is taking the project. It explains why we have Ubuntu flavours. And why Ubuntu is built on Debian but is not Debian.

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  2. #32
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by grahammechanical View Post
    Yes, It is our fault. We are all to blame for not using the GNU Herd operating system.

    GNU Herd was supposed to be the monolithic FOSS operating system. How come it did not happen that way? That fellow Linus Torvalds came along and invited programmers/hackers to help him develop a microkernel called minix. I am of the opinion that Richard Stallman was unable to do the same. He had personally written the software tools that could be used to write computer programs. I think he wanted to use those tools to write the FOSS operating system that he wanted and could not open development of it up to other programmers. Of course, I could be completely wrong about Richard Stallman.

    There was a short period of time when it would have been possible to develop the one and only FOSS operating system and the moment passed. Not only that the principles of FOSS make it all too easy to fork the code and go your own way if you, as a programmer, do not like the direction the project leader is taking the project. It explains why we have Ubuntu flavours. And why Ubuntu is built on Debian but is not Debian.

    Regards
    LOL! Err, yeah, the fabled GNU Hurd OS. Now why aren't we all using it? For a very similar reason that we don't go riding Unicorns.

    The whole GNU/GNUStep/GNU Hurd project was doomed almost from the start. Initially, GNUStep aimed to be an implementation of the NeXT OPENSTEP Specification. But hell, they couldn't even get the Windowmaker WME right, when it eventually came along - they even completely forgot the fact that the OPENSTEP display manager operated at a completely different gamma level than Linux/X 11 and Windows (or OS/2 at about the same time). As a result, Windowmaker looked a dark, almost forbidding, mess. (Unless you had access to the original NeXT GFX and OPENSTEP OS under which to adjust the gamma and save them, with their transparencies and in full 24-bit colour, to a format that Linux could use, etc. etc., which was a nightmare to set right. I should know - I still had a couple of NeXT boxen and also OPENSTEP X86 on my first (self-built) PC, along with OS/2 Warp 3 running XFreeX86 with Windowmaker!) Then along came the bright idea (being sarcy!) of following in the traitor to all OPENSTEP users Steve Jobs' footsteps and incorporating a GNU version of Cocoa! Meanwhile, the Turd - err, pardon, the Hurd - limped and whimpered along, barely able to do as much as break wind, metaphorically speaking. How long has the whole thing been now? Oh yes, a mere 40 or so for GNU and 30 or so years for the Hurd.

    A monolithic FOSS OS is, in its own way, as much an oxymoron as was Microsoft Works in its day. To produce a 'monolithic' OS is just not possible adhering completely to the FOSS tenets. Nor can it be produced 'by committee' as it were. OS development simply does not and cannot work as a democracy. This kind of governance ultimately stifles and kills a project like an OS. Instead, what is required is a strong leader with a single vision who can inspire his team and convince them that he is right and knows best. Steve Jobs - much as I still dislike the guy - was such a leader, one who never accepted that something was *impossible*, *difficult* perhaps, yes. Never impossible. And it got results. The best and at the same time best looking OS of its time (that Microsoft 'ripped off' as the Chicago/Win 95 GUI in slightly modified form - the matter was eventually settled amicably between old chums Jobs and Gates).

    At the same time, a 'religious' adherence to FOSS principles also is simply impossible and gets in the way of creating an OS that has, among other things, a wider hardware compatibility and support. It can also prevent the use of high quality GFX on the basis of copyright and other legal rights issues incompatible with a 'Free' license. In addition, if the aim was a 'monolithic' OS (or a small group of OSes) a restrictive, proprietary kind of license would be mandatory, otherwise the result would again be a complete mess of myriad distros coming along.

    The idea and ideal of FOSS is all well and nice, but it can never produce a strong, 'monolithic' OS, sadly.
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  3. #33
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by werewulf75 View Post
    The more distros there are, and the more continue to come along, the more fragmented Linux becomes. The more fragmented it becomes, the closer Linux moves to oblivion. Fragmentation is not what Linus Torvalds ever envisaged or intended. It is bad for Linux, and it is bad for Linux users.
    I don't think there needs to be as many distributions as there are right now... Many distributions have no real differences between themselves and their "upstream" besides theming and included packages.

    And again, just in the Ubuntu category, there are multiple distribution that technically don't have many differences beside DE and Packages. i.e. Ubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu Budgie, Ubuntu Cinnamon, etc.

    So, for that, I am in agreement.

    However, the distributions with the largest differences, Like Fedora, Debian, Arch, Gentoo, etc. These distributions offer something different in their inherent design. And without the differences here, we could very much lose the landscape. The more fragmented the branches become (off of the main distributions) the less likely they are to stick around... however, in some cases, this becomes a good thing.

    Linux Mint, for example, started as an Ubuntu derivative, which was a branch of Debian... but today, Mint is going their own direction, but still using the Ubuntu Kernel.

    So, some "fracturing" works well, others, not so much.
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  4. #34
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    I don't think there needs to be as many distributions as there are right now... Many distributions have no real differences between themselves and their "upstream" besides theming and included packages.

    And again, just in the Ubuntu category, there are multiple distribution that technically don't have many differences beside DE and Packages. i.e. Ubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu Budgie, Ubuntu Cinnamon, etc.

    So, for that, I am in agreement.

    However, the distributions with the largest differences, Like Fedora, Debian, Arch, Gentoo, etc. These distributions offer something different in their inherent design. And without the differences here, we could very much lose the landscape. The more fragmented the branches become (off of the main distributions) the less likely they are to stick around... however, in some cases, this becomes a good thing.

    Linux Mint, for example, started as an Ubuntu derivative, which was a branch of Debian... but today, Mint is going their own direction, but still using the Ubuntu Kernel.

    So, some "fracturing" works well, others, not so much.
    "Fracturing" never "works well", it is always to the overall detriment of Linux as a whole IMO. Let us not forget here that Linus Torvalds himself has spoken out against it on more than one occasion. While it may be useful to have the 3 or 4 major distros - Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, and possibly openSUSE - but all following single standards and with a unified WME, WM/DE. No matter how much differentiated I can see absolutely no benefit in having minor distros like Mint, Arch, or Gentoo. Of course, I see zero benefit from any distro having a variety of 'flavours' or 'spins' or whatever one might want to call them. The Plethora of distros - all very much minority interests compared to the 'big 3 or 4 - are harming Linux as a whole and will eventually lead to Linux's demise in obscurity, outside of the server/super computer sector. And that could ultimately be a threat to the latter as well. Let's not forget that the major desktops are the upstream for the server etc. sector. No, let's lose all minors for the greater good. And furthermore, we'll have to lose even semi-strict FOSS adherence or else it'd soon be a case of 'same sh**' all over again. Open source, yes, fully free, definitely not, just couldn't work.

    For the reason of my reasoning here, we need to look no further than some simple statistics - granted, as IIRC Henri Ford once put it, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics", generally something of a truism but highly relevant here. Take the OS situation around 30 or so years ago. Windows 3.x ruled the PC desktop almost unchallenged, with a bunch of comparatively minor OSes clinging on for dear life as it were. We had OS/2 Warp, NeXTStep/OPENSTEP, Amiga OS, BeOS, a few fledgling Linux distros, the puny Apple SystemN/Mac OS (just about the same market share as all-Linux now), QNX, and maybe a few more obscure ones, while not counting the Workstation OSes such as SunOS/Solaris, SGI Irix, HPUX, and various other Unixes. etc. Where are they now? Windows still rules the desktop, albeit with a slightly smaller market share, macOS is still very much a minority interest, OS/2 Warp was dropped by IBM like a hot potato soon after the release of Warp 4, NeXTStep/OPENSTEP was emasculated into MacOS X, Amiga OS died back in the day in the ultimate 'Guru Meditation', BeOS has become subsumed into some set-top boxes and similar apps, QNX also long ago died on the desktop though survives as an embedded Real Time OS, while Linux and its almost countless little distros, flavours, spins, and what have you now occupies the space left vacant by all the little OSes from some 30 years ago that have long perished. And that is exactly what will happen to Linux if things continue as they are. We really need to wake up to the real world out there.
    Last edited by werewulf75; October 5th, 2024 at 05:19 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    The year of the linux desktop is when you actually take it upon yourself to adopt a linux Os and use it on your own hardware without moving back to windows. I've been using an ubuntu derivative since 8.04 and haven't looked back.

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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by TenPlus1 View Post
    The year of the linux desktop is when you actually take it upon yourself to adopt a linux Os and use it on your own hardware without moving back to windows. I've been using an ubuntu derivative since 8.04 and haven't looked back.
    Agreed but only on a personal level.

    I've been using Ubuntu (or since 2012, Xubuntu), for 19 years without any Windows OS, having removed Windows XP once I realised I wasn't using it any more after trying Ubuntu 5.04.

    Great for me personally but I still get many friends asking what the heck is Linux when I mention I'm not using Windows nor Mac.
    Most people still don't even realise there is anything else; to many "Windows" is the same thing as "computer".

    Sad but unfortunately true!

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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    @ajgreeny - So long as you are happy when using linux it's all good, my own friends and family have seen my desktop and asked about it with the odd few wanting to try it out for themselves, and the look on their face when they find out you can customize it and use it exactly how they want is amazing to see.

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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by TenPlus1 View Post
    @ajgreeny - So long as you are happy when using linux it's all good, my own friends and family have seen my desktop and asked about it with the odd few wanting to try it out for themselves, and the look on their face when they find out you can customize it and use it exactly how they want is amazing to see.
    Yes, I've been there and done that but they are amazingly stuck in their supposed need for things like MS Office and Photopshop, neither of which they really do need or must use, that I just give up!

  9. #39
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    @ajgreeny - In which case I either recommend https://www.photopea.com/ as a Photoshop alternative, or OnlyOffice which has good msoffice support, and if they still dont like then I simply move them back to Windows where they can find their own support channels.

  10. #40
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    Re: When will it "actually" happen?

    Sorry, but no way!
    Cloud based applications are a definite non-starter for them (and me!!)

    If it's not on my own computer I'm not interested!

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