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Thread: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

  1. #21
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    journald does logging really well. Rather than adding in awk, grep, cut, paste, to reformat the possible output like we did with text logs
    This is precisely what's wrong with it. We have used grep & awk (or whatever you liked) for decades until journald came in and stripped that possibility from us.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    we can ask journalctl to find and output only the things we want from the processes we want during the times we want.
    I see it as exactly the opposite and I am strongly holding that opinion.

    We could do what you describe with text logs (again, for decades and sorry for using this point so much) and we cannot do that with journalctl. Journalctl forces us into its own kingdom of search tools and paradigm instead of what worked incredibly, unbelievably well if you think about it. With text logs I can "find the things I want from the processes I want during the times I want". With journalctl I cannot because every time I try to do this, I find that it does not output everything that's greppable in the same text logs. Because - of course - that one process is called "sshd" but in fact it's "systemd" pretending to be sshd in order to make people pull their hair, so you cannot see its logs when querying systemd and vice versa.

    And lots of things of that nature.

    Thankfully, journald is still optional on Ubuntu and unlike init, syslog is not going anywhere. So journald with all their cleverness can absolutely take a hike. At least for now. Once it's gone, I'm going to replace it with journalctl -f >> /var/log/system.log right away or build a syslog from sources or something. I absolutely refuse to learn its query language and then rely on its mercy to actually show me what I wanted to see and not hiding things LP thinks needs to be hidden.

    Despite the fact that journald does a pretty good job being apparently convenient, it is still pure evil compared to the working solution that covered 100% of any usage scenario you can imagine.

    PS: While I was writing this message I decided to tail journalctl on one of the boxes. journalctl | tail -1000 takes forever and never finishes, because somehow this Ubuntu still has logs from last autumn while text logs were properly rotated. In order to tail with journalctl I have to read the manual and maybe, *just maybe* LP and his team graciously implemented this feature. Or maybe they did not, because they deem it unnecessary. Thing is, I don't want to learn it. And I don't want them to have any say. I have tail and I had it for ... here we go again. So, yeah.
    Last edited by QIII; 1 Week Ago at 04:45 AM. Reason: Edited objectionable verbiage and obfuscated vulgarity.

  2. #22
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by egorFiNE View Post
    With all its dependencies and security vulnerabilities conveniently packed together and independent of the OS and un-upgradeable. Thanks, no.
    If the app isn't networked and is a single-purpose app that you use once a month, what does that matter?
    OTOH, for networked apps, those definitely need to be run under some sort of constraints. I use a video editor that is packaged in multiple ways, but I prefer the AppImage. Same for a MindMapping tool. These aren't networked and seldom used. Who cares if they have a 10 yr old copy of GTK+? I don't.

    Plus, it is my choice, unlike so many other security issues where we have no choice. Like these: https://www.propublica.org/article/c...each-microsoft

    There are few black and white answers, just shades of gray.

  3. #23
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by egorFiNE View Post
    This is precisely what's wrong with it. We have used grep & awk (or whatever you liked) for decades until journald came in and stripped that possibility from us.
    You can tell journalctl to output everything, then use grep, awk, sed, as much as you like.
    You can tell journalctl to do the equivalent of tail -f.
    Is learning 2 different options REALLY that hard? Just create an alias or a tiny script, if you must, just like we've done for getting specific information from log files for decades.

    Your prior usage was limited by what those tools allowed. You don't realize that?

    Systemd status/error stuff is pretty useless for the most part. We are told just that some daemon didn't start which is certainly important, but not very useful for WHY it didn't start. A few days ago, I was trying to figure out why lxd and lxc didn't start. Had to change 2 things until the bugs are corrected. Sadly, one of those things prevented rolling back to an older release because the lxd DB had been moved from v23 to v24 and that change couldn't be undone. Once I saw that, I knew I had to force a specific version of lxd to be used. Nowhere in the systemd status did it say incompatible DB version (v24 being used) with a filename listed. Not helpful. That got it to start. Then lxc wouldn't start. Random web-searching found a kernel boot option to use an older style of memory layout. I have two nearly identical systems. Both lxd/lxc tools stopped working with the update. The LXD fix worked on both, but until I set the kernel boot option, neither lxc would start. Hard to manage lxc containers without lxc. BTW, my redundant LAN DNS servers run inside LXC containers on 2 physically separate systems and both were down. That makes all sorts of things break on my LAN. Stupid snap packages.

  4. #24
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    If the app isn't networked and is a single-purpose app that you use once a month, what does that matter?
    OTOH, for networked apps, those definitely need to be run under some sort of constraints. I use a video editor that is packaged in multiple ways, but I prefer the AppImage. Same for a MindMapping tool. These aren't networked and seldom used. Who cares if they have a 10 yr old copy of GTK+? I don't.
    Having AppImages with ancient and vulnerable GTK versions on a desktop is a straight nightmare fuel.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    There are few black and white answers, just shades of gray.
    True, true.

  5. #25
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    You can tell journalctl to output everything, then use grep, awk, sed, as much as you like.
    True. I'd like to go just a tiny step further and remove journald from that workflow as it is not needed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    You can tell journalctl to do the equivalent of tail -f.
    Except it has some quirks I don't fully understand. Like, it doesn't tail everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    Is learning 2 different options REALLY that hard?
    Why? I don't need journald whatsoever for that. It solves a problem that did not exist and nobody called for.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    Your prior usage was limited by what those tools allowed. You don't realize that?
    Except I see it exactly as the opposite: my usage was unlimited by the tools and is now heavily limited by a tool forced down my throat.

    The hell with it. Again: thankfully it's redundant and not needed and easily removable from Ubuntu. I see no value in journald whatsoever.

  6. #26
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    First hint, use journalctl, not journald. Bet that will help a bunch.

    Second hint, journalctl -f.

    I get that complaining can feel good. I do it a bunch. Often, I'm taught things to make many of my complaints go away.

  7. #27
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    It's not hard to update an AppImage:

    1) download the new AppImage (version 2.0)
    2) test to make sure it works (enable execution)
    3) delete the old AppImage
    4) put the AppImage where you want it. DONE--that's it.

    Now, when you upgrade your system, you don't have DLL hell issues.
    To me, that's worth it. Hands down.

    5) if the program fails, just select it and delete it--DONE! so easy.

  8. #28
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by 909mjolnir View Post
    It's not hard to update an AppImage:

    1) download the new AppImage (version 2.0)
    With the same ancient libraries full of security vulnerabilities because it's convenient for the developer.

    Quote Originally Posted by 909mjolnir View Post
    Now, when you upgrade your system, you don't have DLL hell issues.
    Except it's the opposite: you now have an endless abyss of DLL hell issues. Because instead of a single supported and updated system shared library you now have them all over the place, all random versions with random build settings.

  9. #29
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    Second hint, journalctl -f.
    You are missing my point. My point is that everything worked just fine for decades. I don't need journald, it solves no problem, thus it deserves no learning at all. And

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFu View Post
    I get that complaining can feel good. I do it a bunch. Often, I'm taught things to make many of my complaints go away.
    I'd love for journald to go away instead. Again, because it's an irritation and an artificial bump in the otherwise flat road of logging.

    Complaining makes me feel bad actually. I'm more agitated after discussing systemd cancer than just ignoring it. I hate those kids' creation with passion.

  10. #30
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    Re: *rant warning* HELP: How do I come to terms with systemd?

    Quote Originally Posted by egorFiNE View Post
    With the same ancient libraries full of security vulnerabilities because it's convenient for the developer.
    Depends on the developer. Some choose to use the latest versions of support libraries that haven't been included in distros yet.

    I was a commercial developer for over a decade. There are smart reasons developers do things and there are dumb reasons. If you aren't in the room when some change is discussed and don't have access to the change board documents, you'll never really know what the considerations were. For example, where I worked, I was on the development lead with about 20 developers. Besides coding myself, I assigned features and bugs to be worked to the team members. During the prioritization of anything, we'd consider how many customers it would impact, whether our sales team would be impacted, and how much things would cost to implement. There were other things involved, but we didn't upgrade third-party libraries on a whim. It was always a question of impact and risk. Some of our clients complained whenever any update was required. Others always wanted to be on the latest because they confused "new" with "bug free" - which is never the real situation. New just means "new bugs" that nobody has found yet.

    Some customers begged us to help them only run the number of purchased license copies they'd bought. Others thought that any restriction was unnecessary and an added hassle. It was clear by legal jurisdiction which clients were where. US-based clients wanted help with license restrictions. Asian companies didn't.

    I recall one feature was added specifically to prevent batch versions of our software from being used for web sites. The start up of the batch processing was already slow - perhaps 45 seconds and this was on IBM SP AIX servers, so not little PC servers. The startup delay in the batch system made website use impractical, then we introduced a new "web-engine" license type that cost 100x what a single fat client cost. The engine would start and make connections, but not die. It had an API for handling requests in a multi-threaded way. Lots of MT code is expensive to create and debug. At the time, very few programmers had the expertise to write MT code. We also added a license type for batch processing which was less cost, but had a long startup period. Some businesses still use batch processing overnight, even these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by egorFiNE View Post
    Except it's the opposite: you now have an endless abyss of DLL hell issues. Because instead of a single supported and updated system shared library you now have them all over the place, all random versions with random build settings.
    What? Looks as though you have no idea how AppImages work at all. Might want to correct that issue.

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