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Thread: Lean server for backend applications?

  1. #11
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    Re: Lean server for backend applications?

    About LTS - it is all about support periods. If you spend a month setting a a server (and when you are new, it could be a year to setup, easily, then you don't want support to end without 3+ yrs of support still remaining.

    When I was new to Linux, I wanted to know everything too. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE, so get that idea out of your mind. I've been doing Unix/Linux since around 1993 and I guess I know 10%. Things are always changing so answers usually have history behind them.

    If you want to learn Linux as a server + light developer, then start with the basics that end users need to know. https://www.linuxcommand.org/tlcl.php . Work through the first 12 chapters of that to get the basic understanding. Around pg 250, things that seem disconnected should start to click together and you'll gain insights that just aren't possible memorizing commands. That alone will take 6-12 weeks, depending on your commitment. The goal is true knowledge, not finishing each chapter and all the exercises. Only you can know if you truly understand users, groups, permissions. Even after getting an "A" in a Unix course because I could memorize those things, the elegance of Unix permissions wasn't clear until I sat down and played with 3 different userids, mixing and matching groups, then seeing what every single possible permission did on the files AND on the directories. I literally did this:
    Code:
    chmod 007 file
    chmod 006 file
    chmod 005 file
    chmod 004 file
    chmod 003 file
    chmod 002 file
    chmod 001 file
    chmod 000 file
    and between each of those changes, saw what the owner, group member and outsider could see and do with the file. Then I moved onto
    Code:
    chmod 100 file
    chmod 200 file
    chmod 300 file
    ....
    chmod 777 file
    You need time to "sleep on it." Lots of time as you learn more and add the new points of knowledge into your overall Unix understanding.
    For example, 711 is very useful for programs and directories in ways not intuitively obvious, but not ok for interpreted scripts.

    Also learn what is meant when people say that in Unix "everything is a file".

    These things are base knowledge and feed into EVERYTHING ELSE on the system.

    As for security, it is a process, not a program. In general, the larger a program or set of installed programs are on any computer, the less secure it will be. Alpine is small, so more secure than Ubuntu, but there are many assumptions around that statement - like "all other things being equal". Any computing device can be non-secure, if the admin and users make foolish choices. Out of the box, alpine is more secure because it has nothing enabled. If you want something to work beyond a minimal shell, then you'll need to set it up. OTOH, post install Ubuntu Server does lots of things, some over the internet. Is that more or less secure? It certainly can be handy. That's also certain.

    I've decided that Ubuntu Server is secure enough by my needs, with a few caveats. Ask again in 3 yrs and we can chat deeply about that. That this point, you don't have the background and I don't have the time to type it all.

    If you want to learn how to setup a Linux system, get comfortable with an Ubuntu desktop flavor suitable for your hardware. Run that for 3 months. Everything you can do on a "server" is possible on desktops too. Getting to the point faster is usually a good thing so people aren't overwhelmed with things that are nearly automatic on the desktop releases. Do you really want to struggle with setting up network access via text config files that nobody except Canonical uses? Is that an efficient use of your time?

    Next, install something that shows more of the details like Arch or Slackware. Run one of those for 3 months.

    Then come back and load Ubuntu Server. Run that for 3 months. Or Debian. Your choice. They are different, but not completely different.

    Then decide if you might want to switch to a RHEL-based server or a SuSE-based server to get their take on it. They come with SELinux installed, which can be a pain, but has lots of features not in Debian/Ubuntu.

    For end-users, Linux is Linux is Linux. Over 90% is the same. It is the administrative aspects that are different, but the underlying system is the same. Alpine, debian, ubuntu, rhel, SuSE, arch, gentoo ... are 90% the same. They all get their kernels from kernel.org (that Linus runs). Of course, kernel versions can matter greatly, depending on your hardware and specific uses. For a while, ZFS didn't work with the v6.x kernel. If you don't use ZFS, it doesn't matter, but if you do ... you'd either know this or be bitten.

    Oh ... learn about volume managers and file systems sometime around 8 months of daily use. Beginners aren't used to thinking that there are 10 popular, but different, file systems. If you don't know anything, choose ext4 on Debian/Ubuntu. Some other distros will push some other file systems, which is great. Just beware that data loss can happen in some non-standard uses.

    Did I mention backups? You need those.

    You may notice I didn't say much about being lean, since that's really low on the things someone new should worry about. There are bigger issues to solve.

  2. #12
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    Re: Lean server for backend applications?

    TheFu had a lot of valuable things, that I would have said if given a change, that I wholly agree on. I'll add to that.

    I've been testing for Ubuntu Server since 10.04... From the release versions, in Server Edition of Ubuntu, there is not as many major changes, like you have with the Desktop Edition. We had a few, such as Kernel, the move from Init to SystemD, the move to Netplan, the move from debian-installer to the live installer... to name a few. They were big changes, but not game changers like with Desktop Edition. From the interim releases to LTS releases, there are not usually major changes that you see right off on the surface, with each release. The main focus is on making it stable, secure and applying CVE's (security). This last is where you you say your focus is (security), in Ubuntu, that is just done.

    Most users of Server Edition, there is no reason for them to go with an interim release, because their focus is stability, support, and security. They are not looking for the latest and greatest (within reason). (Unless it supports new hardware.) Once they get their server setup and configured, those can be left static until another LTS release comes around that they can migrate to it.

    I think it's time to mention about the building blocks... If you install via debootstrap using the sources.list of Ubuntu, that is 'Ubuntu Base'. If you want to learn 'lean', then i suggest you learn how to install using this method. That is Ubuntu, stripped down to it's minimum infrastructure base. I often will start out an install from this, onto the file manager/file system I have setup, and install what I need onto this. Warning: This is an advanced installation method, where you need to understand how things should work, and how the pieces should work together.

    If you go with the method of installing packages to get to the next step in a build; From there the steps up from that (in order) are 'ubuntu-server-minimal', the 'ubuntu-server'.

    Within this post, are tidbits that should keep you busy for months; Googling, reading, learning how to do... All the while learning about Linux commands and how to use them, until you feel comfortable working in Console. There is a learning curve, that I feel is worth the time to learn.

    It's your decision on what you choose and what paths you take to get there. Sometimes "the best path" for the long-run, is not the fastest. It's your decision how you interpret what "the best path" means... You can get there in the same place in a few commands, but what you learn with that is not the same.
    Last edited by MAFoElffen; October 4th, 2023 at 05:36 PM.

    "Concurrent coexistence of Windows, Linux and UNIX..." || Ubuntu user # 33563, Linux user # 533637
    Sticky: Graphics Resolution | UbuntuForums 'system-info' Script | Posting Guidelines | Code Tags

  3. #13
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    Re: Lean server for backend applications?

    A plan, that will facilitate you getting there quicker, and learning faster, if you have only one computer... Is to install Ubuntu Desktop on your host, and install KVM as a virtual host system.

    That way you can learn to install Ubuntu Server VM's in a safe and friendly environment. You can connect to the machines from a graphical terminal, where you can cut-and-paste commands into, and see what they do.

    When I am testing and evaluating VM's, I can allocate the resources it should have, on the target platform, then quickly see would it is doing from the Virt-manager console to see if it needs more resources. that way, you can evaluate what 'lean" means. and if what you do has effects on that.

    I think, overall, that will force you to learn Linux, in a way that will speed up the learning curve... In an test (learning) environment. Long ago, I consolidated my 14 physical servers into one Physical Virtual Host... And use that same VM Host to test things that have problems, or should not work... To see if they can make them work if done a different way.

    I think this is your best option to start out learning.

    Once you decide on, and setup the foundation, then you can investigate and decide on the further: an SQL database, whether you want to go with TomCat Server for JAVA app's, etc. (I have a note on that below.)

    I have to admit, I know JAVA, but have moved away from that in favor of just doing Python instead. JAVA is not the same it was about 10 years ago. Before that, JAVA had it's heyday, and was supposed to be the thing to do. With every version of JAVA, there then were security issues that had to be corrected in the next release layer, that couldn't just be applied, because there were things that were deprecated. So they required code changes just to keep them running. It became a very large maintenance consideration. Then JAVA demand itself fell from favor. It was not a hard decision. I even wrote a college course proposal, that included lectures and code examples, converting their existing "Object Oriented Programming" course from using JAVA to Python... I even included writing a their (sample) final project in Python. That was in early 2017. Curious in what you see differently on that nowadays?
    Last edited by MAFoElffen; October 4th, 2023 at 06:18 PM.

    "Concurrent coexistence of Windows, Linux and UNIX..." || Ubuntu user # 33563, Linux user # 533637
    Sticky: Graphics Resolution | UbuntuForums 'system-info' Script | Posting Guidelines | Code Tags

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