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Thread: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

  1. #11
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    Quote Originally Posted by ian-weisser View Post
    The point of an Immutable Desktop is right there in the label. They cannot edit their .bashrc because that's what "Immutable" means. The use cases for such a desktop have been discussed in public repeatedly, as have the limitations that are obvious to everybody.

    Once again, nobody at Canonical or in the Ubuntu community plans to "lock down" anything in the ways you describe.
    Nobody at Canonical or in the Ubuntu Community plans to end debian package management.
    Nobody at Canonical or in the Ubuntu Community plans to end Ubuntu Server in favor of Ubuntu Core.
    Nobody at Canonical or in the Ubuntu Community plans to end Ubuntu Desktop in favor of (hypothetical) Ubuntu Core Desktop.

    So go ahead and worry about it as much as you like. And if you discover that I'm wrong, please cite a source.

    There are lots of other Linux distros. And non-Linux open source alternatives. As DuckHook succinctly pointed out, you have no obligation to follow a distro that you don't enjoy using.
    There is no vendor lock-in here.
    Yes, there are tens of thousands of Linux distros out there, and there is no vendor lock-in here or anywhere. I may not have been around as much as other Linux users, nor do I have the experience or technical know how others probably do, but I do remember Ubuntu about 12+ years ago was downright buggy on all my systems and a hot mess that someone like I, with terribly limited knowledge, just couldn't wrap my head around.

    And now, after so many years coming back to where I started from, and seeing how bug free the OS as become evokes a very calming feeling, in that I don't have to switch distributions anymore. What I have always liked works, and it works well. With all the "obvious" customizations I always hoped gnome would have but only Ubuntu had the foresight to implement them. But then again, one can argue I could use KDE or any other environment, but in my opinion there's isn't an environment in Linux that's as polished and non windows-like as gnome out of the box. Sure I could go back to Arch and run an i3 or Awesome window manager and keep tinkering with it all day, but work keeps me busy. Ubuntu gives me what I like and with the right principles and philosophies it's the best bet.

  2. #12
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    I'm still waiting on 20.04 to see what 24.04 will bring. Separate Dpkg and Snap OS versions, sounds hopeful to me. Although, 'the proof will be in the pudding'.
    Last edited by mikodo; August 4th, 2023 at 07:53 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    been with Ubuntu since the days of Warty (still have the install CD) then moved to Ubuntu LTS when the LTS first came out and remained with the LTS until 22.04 LTS.
    i always believed that the LTS was the best, most stable, most reliable of Ubuntu and could be used in the corporate environment as it was rock solid.
    but i cant understand why they put snaps in the LTS, in the 6 monthly releases yes, as it seems not to be working as it should therefore makes the LTS work more like the 6 monthly release.

    Unity wasn't a problem it didn't get in my way. systemd is not a problem, i used it as a DNS caching server, it doesn't get in my way. snaps no matter what i have tried gets in my way.
    even after removing snaps it tries to get back into the system so then you have to play around to lock snaps out of the system which then reduces available deb software. snaps just gets in my way which is not what i want.

    i had Debian 11 running in boxes but the snap version of boxes wouldn't allow USB pass-through and to get the deb of boxes from the software centre i had to remove snaps. and so on it went.

    when Debian 12 was released i thought why not give it a shot and installed it directly on to my computer. the install was easy and the installer even easier and everything just worked.
    so i would like to thank Ubuntu for all their hard work because it gave me a grounding in Debian Linux which i'm now using, which i hasten to add, is snap free and doesn't get in my way ...
    Nothing travels faster than the speed of light, with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. (Douglas Adams)

  4. #14
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    Ubuntu Core is a snap based OS without a desktop. If we do not like the development of Ubuntu Core with a desktop then do not switch to Fedora SilverBlue. It is an immutable desktop. And it seems far more advanced the Canonical's Ubuntu Core Desktop.

    I do not move too far from Ubuntu Forums but I sometimes wonder if the kind of complaints people make about Canonical are made about the developers of other distributions on their forums. I have no desire to find out the answer, but I do wonder if there is any discussion on a Fedora forum about Fedora SilverBlue and how much of it is negative.

    From early days Mark Shuttleworth set out to be disruptive. The Ubuntu that we are using now will continue because the promise of Long Term Support + Extended Security Maintenance will be kept. Although I can see Ubuntu Core + Desktop breaking the connection with Debian and Gnome. I can see Ubuntu Core being a subset of Linux code with subsets of Debian and Gnome and any other desktop as is necessary.

    Regards
    Last edited by grahammechanical; August 5th, 2023 at 11:23 PM.
    It is a machine. It is more stupid than we are. It will not stop us from doing stupid things.
    Ubuntu user #33,200. Linux user #530,530


  5. #15
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    Quote Originally Posted by grahammechanical View Post
    I sometimes wonder if the kind of complaints people make about Canonical are made about the developers of other distributions on their forums.
    Generally yes.

    In some distro communities with lax moderation, some of the complaints are quite floridly horrible and hateful. And then quiet...since who wants to be there?

  6. #16
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    This will never happen because the Linux ecosystem is self‑correcting. Ubuntu is far from the only distro around and were Canonical to make as foolish a move as the one you posit, users would abandon them in droves.
    One would think. But I know here and on a few other forums plenty of people love to still bash systemd but they don't move on. They just sit and complain on the forums all the time but stick with their systemd distro. It's comical. Moving is to much work. It really depends on if your investment in time and resources to a given distro is worth abandoning for a philosophical reason. Not everyone will pick the philosophy side

  7. #17
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadaen_Sylvermane View Post
    One would think. But I know here and on a few other forums plenty of people love to still bash systemd but they don't move on. They just sit and complain on the forums all the time but stick with their systemd distro. It's comical. Moving is to much work. It really depends on if your investment in time and resources to a given distro is worth abandoning for a philosophical reason. Not everyone will pick the philosophy side
    You make a very valid point. While you are right, over a period of time one does get comfortable with what one earlier disliked, there's always the dealbreaker. In my case it is an immutable system. If ever the immutable Ubuntu became the standard LTS, that's it.

  8. #18
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    Quote Originally Posted by DuckHook View Post
    This will never happen because the Linux ecosystem is self‑correcting. Ubuntu is far from the only distro around and were Canonical to make as foolish a move as the one you posit, users would abandon them in droves.

    ...FOSS enforces good behaviour on the whole ecosystem by punishing bad behaviour with easy forks and simple, limitless mobility. Canonical is well aware of this dynamic and would not shoot themselves in the foot.
    +1

    Debian 12 is amazing, and if you are looking for a snap free .deb distro, Debian is your ticket

    I'm running Ubuntu to use and understand the distro and use of snaps. So far, function is the same (with my basic workstation set up) as Fedora 38 Gnome and Debian 12 Gnome. I'm not sure what snaps gain you, but their function is the same as a .deb or .rpm.

    As mentioned before in the forum, there is a significant size jump in the distro with snaps. Fedora 38 Gnome and personal data around 8GB. Debian 12 Gnome and personal data around 8GB. Ubuntu 22.04 (with snaps) and personal data around 15GB.

    This difference in OS size is not a problem for me. I set up a basic GNU/Linux workstation and modern drives are huge. My oldest laptop (with Ubuntu loaded) has a 65GB SSD, I don't even come close to filling the drive - 15GB of 65GB.

    I'm guinea pigging along with Ubuntu snaps
    Ubuntu 24.04 LTS | Toshiba Satellite C655 | i3 2.3Ghz | Intel HD Graphics 3000 | 8GB RAM | 65GB SSD
    Fedora 40 | Lenovo Edge 15 | i5 1.7Ghz | Intel HD Graphics 4400 | 6GB RAM | 1TB HDD

  9. #19
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    The thing they give you is self containment. A snap can run on any linux distro without being compiled against it assuming you have the snapd daemon running. All dependencies are included in the snap. Whether or not this is a positive is up for debate. Since you can effectively have countless versions in a set of snaps you lose all benefits of the shared library model. Normally a security update to one library fixes every program that relies on it in a shared library system. AppImage and Flatpak are similar in concept to snaps and require each to be updated separately. This assumes they ever get updated in the first place.

    *I may have that a bit off but it's the general idea*

  10. #20
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    Re: Could Apt Package Manager Be Eventually Fased out of LTS Releases?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadaen_Sylvermane View Post
    The thing they give you is self containment. A snap can run on any linux distro without being compiled against it assuming you have the snapd daemon running. All dependencies are included in the snap.
    Perhaps not the intended benefit, but I did have one application use case where the up to date snap of Darktable allowed me to load a current version of Darktable with the function I needed. This was not available as a .deb (at the time) with Ubuntu 22.04. Though that is the only case where a snap was beneficial in function over the .deb package.

    I can see the benefit of loading snaps with the dependencies included, to give you current software and function.
    Ubuntu 24.04 LTS | Toshiba Satellite C655 | i3 2.3Ghz | Intel HD Graphics 3000 | 8GB RAM | 65GB SSD
    Fedora 40 | Lenovo Edge 15 | i5 1.7Ghz | Intel HD Graphics 4400 | 6GB RAM | 1TB HDD

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