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Thread: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

  1. #41
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy Landau View Post
    Well, this is going to upset a lot of people. This is the start of what got MS in trouble with antitrust in the first place all those years ago!
    To be honest, I have wondered why they hadn't done this in Windows 8, 8.1, and 10.

    I really don't have a problem with Microsoft wanting Windows 10(11) to be "all inclusive." If they want to change Windows to an "All or Only Microsoft" platform, that's their game. Obviously, that'd be like shooting themselves in the foot, but that's another story.

    The only real problem I have with Windows, is not necessarily all of the data collection. You can turn that stuff off, for the most part. However, there are aspects of Windows data collection that cannot be turned off, and none of it is "opt-in." It's all "opt-out."

    Ubuntu learned this when they added the Amazon data collection to their "Lens" or "Start Menu." They realized people preferred "Opt-In" instead of "Opt-Out."

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy Landau View Post
    MS might decide to rescind this before releasing it to the public. I hope so.
    Yeah, this is probably a bad move for Microsoft. But, its entirely up to them.

    Microsoft doesn't have a good reputation with browsers, due to the whole pathway Internet Explorer took. It started off by fighting with Netflix, and unfortunately seemed to win that fight. Netflix disappeared and we were left with IE. Then over the years other browsers jumped into the game, and successfully beat IE down. Microsoft watched this happen, and finally tried to jump back into the game with Edge. Then, they decided "well, if you can't beat them, join them" and made Edge Chromium.

    Regardless. Here's the big issue...

    Internet Explorer was so integrated into Microsoft's OS and Web-Systems that it is still required for certain applications TO THIS DAY.

    Some of the systems we use at my State Office REQUIRE IE. Like, legitimately WILL NOT run in Edge or Firefox.

    So, the big issue is that if we allow Edge (Chromium) to continue, Microsoft will undoubtedly start adding things to it (like "ActiveX" for IE) in order to "enhance" it's web use for all of it's business associates, and make it proprietary and necessary again.

    IMHO, the reason it is available in Linux, at this point, is so that when you need to log-in to that Microsoft related web-site, you can do so without problems.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    I really don't have a problem with Microsoft wanting Windows 10(11) to be "all inclusive." If they want to change Windows to an "All or Only Microsoft" platform, that's their game.
    I have always found that sort of strategy hugely frustrating, whether it's Microsoft or another provider, whether it's hardware or software. It's a lock-out approach. That, to me, is the biggest siren call for open-source.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    Internet Explorer was so integrated into Microsoft's OS and Web-Systems that it is still required for certain applications TO THIS DAY.

    Some of the systems we use at my State Office REQUIRE IE. Like, legitimately WILL NOT run in Edge or Firefox.
    That shocks me! But then, it shouldn't have, because, from a coding point of view, Windows is a gigantic spaghettified mess.

    As IE is still critical for parts of Windows, does that mean vulnerable security points? I imagine so.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    chromium require i use snap if edge is in a normal deb i'd use it as much as i used to use chromium

    i really should just setup a test firefox profile for that use case, but having edge there for the sake of testing would be good, just cause i not want to use snap, nto like ms would be able to get my browsing data without making edge itself literal system wide spyware
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  4. #44
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pqwoerituytrueiwoq View Post
    chromium require i use snap if edge is in a normal deb i'd use it as much as i used to use chromium

    i really should just setup a test firefox profile for that use case, but having edge there for the sake of testing would be good, just cause i not want to use snap, nto like ms would be able to get my browsing data without making edge itself literal system wide spyware
    I'm still not sold on Snaps. I like the idea, but currently the execution is off. Ubuntu is the front-running Linux Distro for Snaps, and it's making me steer toward different distributions... If Mint had a Minimal KDE Variant, I'd jump ship quicker than Forrest Gump seeing Lt. Dan.

    I'd prefer it if Ubuntu left Snaps as an "option," and not a "requirement." See here: https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2464112
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  5. #45
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Since my biggest beefs with the whole IT ecosystem are the related issues of privacy, anonymity, data proprietorship and tracking, I just don't trust MS or Google at all to install their browsers. Frankly, I wouldn't trust them to shine my shoes.

    I use FF as my main browser, Brave as a secondary (almost primary) and an assortment of other FOSS browsers for specific sites. In particular, I find that an outrageously primitive browser (links2) with no scripting ability will allow me to bypass paywalls that more sophisticated browsers won't.

    I no longer use the synchronization feature on browsers because I don't trust my passwords or bookmarks to them. Nor do I trust them to be floating around in the cloud. Passwords are stored in a Keepass database. Bookmarks are stored on my personal NextCloud. The browser has reverted to being a generic app like GIMP or Nautilus. This frees me up to treat them all interchangeably. The resulting sense of freedom has been liberating.

    No more jails (no matter how cozy) for this bear.

  6. #46
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy Landau View Post
    Another vehemently visceral reaction!
    You will have to throw me in the same boat.

    I am more than old enough to remember when MS happily used its market dominance to engage in predatory practices of such malevolence that even their most dedicated cultists were left redfaced. One form of predatory practice (out of hundreds) was to intentionally commingle their OS with their browser so completely that it was impossible to extricate oneself from the worst browser ever created—a transparent ploy to wipe out Netscape, which they ultimately succeeded in doing. It is our great good fortune that Marc Andreessen & company had the foresight to respond by setting up the Mozilla Foundation and open sourcing the code. That's the only reason we have the alternative of Firefox today. It's an excellent reason to continue supporting FF.

    Edge+Win 11 is simply IE+Win 95 redux. But consumers have the memory of mayflies and the new generation in particular has no knowledge of MS's predatory past. Like TheFu, I have no confidence that this leopard has changed even the smallest of its spots.
    Last edited by DuckHook; November 17th, 2021 at 02:32 AM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    I'm still not sold on Snaps. I like the idea, but currently the execution is off.
    Personally, I love snaps. I don't know what you mean by "the execution is off." If you mean that they're a bit slow, the initial run of a snap (after restarting the computer) is indeed a bit slow on an older computer.

    The one major flaw is that you have no control over its sandboxing. For example, I'd be happy to use snap's gedit, but the sandboxing prevents me from using it for files outsides a strictly limited set of folders; I can't even edit files in my ~/bin.

    I see from your thread that you have a significant problem with Chromium on snap! I only use LTS versions, so I can't check for myself. I might do later in a VM if I have a little time. (EDIT: I've tested it, and I'll reply in your other thread.) Can you replace it with a flatpak or an appimage? The latter two have their own hassles, but reasonably easy to work around. I notice that the flatpak version is fully up-to-date, unlike the snap one.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuckHook View Post
    Since my biggest beefs with the whole IT ecosystem are the related issues of privacy, anonymity, data proprietorship and tracking, I just don't trust MS or Google at all to install their browsers.
    I find it interesting how much some people care about anonymity, etc. It actually doesn't bother me. The fact is that we're headed towards a world where there is no privacy, and not just on computers. We might as well get used to it.

    I do understand, though, if you don't trust them to hold your passwords; with all the hacks that have taken place, it is a worry.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuckHook View Post
    I am more than old enough to remember when MS happily used its market dominance to engage in predatory practices of such malevolence that even their most dedicated cultists were left redfaced.
    I also remember this. I didn't know that Firefox had arisen from Netscape, though. Reading Wikipedia, I see that it was originally named Phoenix.
    Last edited by Paddy Landau; November 17th, 2021 at 09:36 AM.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy Landau View Post
    …The fact is that we're headed towards a world where there is no privacy, and not just on computers. We might as well get used to it…
    "Resistance is futile?"

    I dislike being a drone, and I think such a future far from inevitable. The consequences if it were are too awful to live with.

    I realize that warnings from a nobody like me can come across as Chicken Little sky‑is‑falling stuff, but there's a good docudrama put out a couple of years ago that might be more cogent.

    The Social Dilemma

    It's still available on Netflix and, in a profound irony, was for a time available on YouTube (though I believe it no longer is). Well worth anyone's time. The actual creators and executives of various social media platforms explain the dangers of social media with a depth of knowledge that I couldn't possibly match.

    And the danger they cite comprises but a small portion of the overall dangers that exist when we give up our privacy/anonymity/data rights.

    Consider also this different presentation from a security professional (can't remember who anymore): at one point in his presentation, he challenges his viewers (I paraphrase):
    …I'm going to leave my email address up on the screen. After you get home, I want those of you who think your privacy is unimportant to send me your tax returns, your bank account and records, your legal documents, your health records, all of your private photos, your social media passwords and all of your e-mails, including the juicy ones griping about your boss, criticizing your employer and gossiping about your friends.

    I will take my time choosing what I will forward on to your insurance company, credit agency, employer, boss, spouse, family, friends, news agencies, public bulletin boards and, not least, sundry sites on the dark web.
    You are not alone in feeling that privacy/anonymity/data-rights are lost causes. Most of my friends feel the same way. But I don't understand the nonchalance that the large majority of people have towards these matters. To me, data privacy is as important is physical privacy. Data rights are but a subset of personal rights. Data sanctity is an extension of physical integrity. These seem obvious and it perplexes me that most people don't make the connections.

    Dragging this back to your initial question:

    I refuse to use Edge because I again agree with TheFu. MS differs from Google/Facebook/Amazon only in degree; not in kind. They've shown time and again that they couldn't care less about me—and this includes my data rights—when money is at stake. I will not reward such behaviour with any sort of patronage, and especially not so when such a wealth of easy and safe alternatives exist.

  9. #49
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy Landau View Post
    The one major flaw is that you have no control over its sandboxing. For example, I'd be happy to use snap's gedit, but the sandboxing prevents me from using it for files outsides a strictly limited set of folders; I can't even edit files in my ~/bin.
    That's the biggest one.

    The other one is "theming." Certain Snaps do not "integrate" the theme properly... I don't really know how to explain this. I could live with this though... the sandboxing is one I cannot live with.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Now that MS Edge (stable) is available on Linux, will you use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DuckHook View Post
    I dislike being a drone…
    I don't understand what privacy and "being a drone" (whatever that means) have to do with each other? But, talking about drones…
    Quote Originally Posted by DuckHook View Post
    I think such a future far from inevitable.
    Alas, look at how technology is progressing. It's inevitable that that time will come when Joe Soap, whether teenager or adult, will be able to print out on his 3D printer a tiny insect-like drone and send it into someone's house to spy. Unnoticed, it sits and watches and his target looks at her bank accounts. The drone follows as the target leaves the house and walks to work.

    For this reason, among others, passwordless security will become vital.

    In stable democracies with solid independent judiciaries, people will be mostly (but not entirely) safe from the government. But we're already seeing a serious attack on that in countries such as the UK and the USA. I hope that the attacks ultimately fail.

    Nevertheless, CCTV is either everywhere or getting there. If you live somewhere like the UK or South Korea, you'll know what I mean.

    In countries with authoritarianism, a mess awaits. Imagine a place like Afghanistan or Russia in the dystopian future.

    We have to get used to a world without privacy, and organise our society around that fact.
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