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Thread: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

  1. #11
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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    Thanks, the first explanation in the first link you gave is particularly good.

    What is still driving me up the wall is that many sources online refer to SATA and PCIe as "protocols", and while I'm aware that the term "bus" incorporates both the hardware and software in a data pathway, I'm sure that the actual protocols are AHCI and NVMe, are they not?

    It's because of this that I find it confusing when I read about SATA vs NVMe, as is it not the case that SATA is the physical link and NVMe is a protocol used to communicate over a physical link, i.e PCIe. Although I appreciate that as NVMe can only be used over PCIe then it could be considered synonymous with it (as in SATA vs NVMe = SATA vs PCIe NVMe)

    I hope that makes sense!

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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    I'm an engineer and happy to only know "enough" without knowing the details for everything. The engineer in me is happy to know just enough information to solve the issue and move on.

    And just to clarify - my Asus B450 SATA/NVMe restrictions don't apply to all Asus motherboards or even all B450 variants. Assume every motherboard is different, so pull the manual from the vendor and look through the installation guide for SSD m.2 storage. Carefully read the table and footnotes.

    I have exactly this: ASUS ROG Strix B450-F Gaming Motherboard
    The manual is here: https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards...lpDesk_Manual/
    Direct English link: https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/m...ING_UM_WEB.pdf
    Page 22: has the table for m.2 SSDs support based on the GPU PCIe card uses.
    Page 28: has the specifics for m.2 SSDs and SATA v NVMe options.
    • For AMD RyzenTM 2nd Generation / RyzenTM 1st Generation Processors:
    - M.2_1 supports PCIE 3.0 x4 and SATA mode M Key design and type 2242 / 2260 / 2280 storage devices.
    - M.2_2 supports PCIE 3.0 x4 M Key design and type 2242 / 2260 / 2280 / 22110 storage devices*.
    • For AMD RyzenTM with RadeonTM Vega Graphics Processors**
    - M.2_1 supports PCIE 3.0 x4 and SATA mode M Key design and type 2242 / 2260 / 2280 storage devices.

    * M.2_2 socket shares bandwidth with PCIE x16. When M.2_2 slot runs in PCIE mode, the PCIE x16_1 slot will run at x8 mode.
    ** The M.2_2 socket is not supported for these CPU
    Elsewhere in the manual (pg 9),
    AMD Ryzen 2nd Generation / Ryzen 1st Generation Processors*
    - M.2_1 socket 3 with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280 (PCIE 3.0 x 4 and SATA modes) storage devices support**
    - M.2_2 socket 3 with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280/22110 (PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode) storage devices support***
    - 2 x SATA 6Gb/s ports

    ** When the M.2_1 Socket 3 is operating in SATA or PCIE mode, SATA6G_5/6 ports will be disabled.
    *** When the M.2_2 is occupied by M.2 device, PCIe x16_1 will run at x8 mode.
    Page 12:
    1 x M.2_1 Socket 3 for M Key, type 2242/2260/2280 devices support, (supports PCIE and SATA modes)
    1 x M.2_2 Socket 3 for M Key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 devices support, (supports PCIE mode)
    Lots of caveats. Use both NVMe slots and the GPU becomes x8. Use m2-1 as SATA and SATA port 5/6 are gone. If the CPU has onboard iGPU, then m2-2 cannot be used at all. So, if I want 8 storage devices (6-SATA and 2-NVMe) then the GPU is only x8. I find that acceptable ... have added a 4-SATA controller to another PCIe slot to get a total of 12 HDDs supported as I retire older, less efficient, less capable systems.

    Caveats. Know them BEFORE you buy stuff.

  3. #13
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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldfred View Post
    I was going to move M.2 SATA to Z97 system, but needed to copy some data to Z170 and bought a M.2 SATA to USB adapter. Surprised at how fast it is, I thought it was USB3 ports were part of why my flash drives were so slow, but SSD on USB3 as fast or faster than my SATA HDD. Have multiple large flash drives, so may now only buy SSDs for USB backup.
    Not all USB flash drives are created equal. I haven't really kept up with the latest and greatest but SanDisk made a family of USB 3 drives that used faster flash and SSD controllers. It was nearly as fast as SSDs at less $$$. More than $9.99 specials though as you'd expect.

    To address JC's question, there are NVMe and SATA III SSDs. They are not interchangeable. I just recently installed my first MoBo with 2 M2 connectors, one NVMe and one SATA III. If I installed a SATA III M2 drive it would disable one of the plug-in SATA ports. I have an HP920 512 GB SSD which bench tested pretty well and it performs well but doesn't feel significantly faster than a mid-range SATA III SSD for typical desktop usage. If I were building a really compact system like the Intel NUC, M2 drives would shine because they're tiny. The physical size designators are something like 2280 or 22110. That means they're 22 mm wide and 80 or 110 mm long and a few mm thick. In other words, a little larger than a couple sticks of chewing gun.

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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    @TheFu Thanks that's really informative, and could definitely cause some headaches if someone was trying to figure out why a certain SSD wasn't being detected or something, if they weren't aware of those caveats! Also I guess if one was going to use the machine for gaming or something graphically intensive, but planned to add a NVMe SSD in M.2_2 then that could be a problem.
    Last edited by jcdenton1995; June 16th, 2020 at 02:20 PM. Reason: added more stuff

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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcdenton1995 View Post
    @TheFu Thanks that's really informative, and could definitely cause some headaches if someone was trying to figure out why a certain SSD wasn't being detected or something, if they weren't aware of those caveats!
    Me writing
    Read the motherboard manual carefully. There will be a chart showing all these gotchas. Best to know them BEFORE purchase.
    appears to not have been clear enough to get the point across like posting the actual, obtuse, words in the manual. Too bad.

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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    but doesn't feel significantly faster than a mid-range SATA III SSD
    From just watching a few Youtube videos comparing loading times for vidja games between a HDD, SATA III SSD and NVMe SSD's, in practice the NVMe device improves on conventional SATA III loading times by one, maybe two seconds if your lucky over a fifteen to twenty second period.

    I'm sure there are real benefits in other use cases like reading or writing large files, plus maybe this is actually caused by a bottleneck somewhere else?

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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    No I understood what you were saying before, what I meant is it's helpful to see how it is worded in the manual so I know what I'm looking at / for when I come to read other manuals for potential MB's I may buy.

    the actual, obtuse, words in the manual
    You are right they could have gone with just plain English.

  8. #18
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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    +1 on the fact that not all SSDs are equal. That is a completely different consideration. There are cheap brands, named-brands that resell other manufacturers's stuff and their are the higher quality brands across each market segment.

    What I buy for putting together a computer to be resold is very different from what I buy for my own laptop, which is very different from what I buy for a VM server that will run 24/7 for 10 yrs.

    Performance matters about 5th in my list of concerns.
    • Size
    • Price
    • Endurance/durability as spec'd in TBW warranty
    • Connection type
    • Speed


    I won't buy any SSD that doesn't have published endurance numbers. I've contacted some vendors who don't publish and they refused to provide those numbers. That tells me something about the quality of those devices just like a spinning HDD with a 90 day warranty says "this is crap".

    To me, all SSDs are so much faster than spinning disks that it really doesn't matter anymore. OSes have been doing all sorts of tricks with spinning disks to make them "feel" faster. Those same tricks don't help nearly as much for SSDs, except to reduce write cycles. SSD endurance is all about write cycles per cell/sector.

    There's lots of less-than-truthful marketing out there for storage. WD has taken to calling some of their external storage "black" trying to play on the WD-Black 5 yr warranty HDDs for an external case that happens to be housed inside a black plastic case. They've been calling some SSDs "black" too, when they only have 3 yr warranties and not the greatest TBW endurance numbers. FWIW, a WD-Black HDD is a quality consumer disk with a warranty to match. The next step up gets into the professional/data center HDDs for 30% higher prices. SSDs have a similar split.
    • Cheap
    • Consumer
    • Pro
    • Data Center

    The prices reflect the underlying technology used (usually). The trick is to catch a sale on a low-end "pro" or high-end Consumer offer from a reputable SSD vendor.

    The other trick is to monitor the TBW in the SMART data periodically, so you can predict when only 20% is left and plan a replacement. ....
    Code:
    === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
    Device Model:     Micron_1100_MTFDDAV512TBN
    ...
    ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
      9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       10406
    173 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   098   098   000    Old_age   Always       -       41
    174 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       35
    202 Unknown_SSD_Attribute   0x0030   098   098   001    Old_age   Offline      -       2
    246 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       13917089118
    247 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       435623544
    248 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       363193339
    180 Unused_Rsvd_Blk_Cnt_Tot 0x0033   000   000   000    Pre-fail  Always       -       2480
    Micron makes SSDs for other "name brands" you know, like Crucial. The model above is a mid-range consumer that happened to be a deal for a few days. Micron has a PDF file which labels most attributes AND has a 1 page explanation for each.
    173 - Average Block-Erase Count
    174 - Unexpected Power Loss Count
    202 - Percent Lifetime Remaining (by this value, 98% of the lifetime remains)
    This value gives the threshold inverted value of the data value below. That is, if 30% of
    the lifetime has been used, this value will report 70%. A value of 0% indicates that 100%
    of the expected lifetime has been used.
    Raw Data (48 bits)
    This value is defined as:
    [insert complex formula; not really, this time]
    Where:
    E AVG = Average erase count for a super block (stripe of blocks)
    B L = Erase count for which the part is rated (block life)
    Attrib 246 isn't in the document, but I'd bet that is the TBW ... 13,917,089,118 ... about 13TB. This is a TLC SSD and a little over 1 yr old. The designed TBW limit is 240TB ... so, 240 / 13 = 18.5 yrs remaining. In theory, if the use patterns for it continue. There is some specific high-write processing that I perform on spinning rust instead of this SSD to reduce the number of write cycles. Seems to be working. Also, never forget that the view the SSD provides to the OS of storage layout is 100% virtual and has nothing, ZERO, nada, to do with how cells are actually allocated into partitions or LVs or zpools. What happens inside these modern SSDs as they try to write balance across all the cells equally hides all those details to the OS and humans.

    Sorry for heading off topic so far. Learn about TLC, SLC, MLC, QLC differences in SSDs to understand why QLC probably isn't the best choice unless only price matters.

  9. #19
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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    The common bottleneck: NVMe paired with Sata SDDs (or even HDD) - data written/read from the SSDs is done at SATA speeds. This disappoints some people who think adding an NVMe drive makes everything faster.

    I have that type of system (m.2 SATA + m.2 MVMe using PCIe adapter), but I knew this speed trap going in. But, since most of the work files I read and write are so small you don't notice lack of the NVMe speed.

    Crucial is a brand of Micron. Micron Technology is an U.S. based company - Headquarters in Idaho!

  10. #20
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    Re: Can anyone clarify the situation with M.2 SSD's please?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcdenton1995 View Post
    From just watching a few Youtube videos comparing loading times for vidja games between a HDD, SATA III SSD and NVMe SSD's, in practice the NVMe device improves on conventional SATA III loading times by one, maybe two seconds if your lucky over a fifteen to twenty second period.

    I'm sure there are real benefits in other use cases like reading or writing large files, plus maybe this is actually caused by a bottleneck somewhere else?
    I think in data centers and the like is where NVMe really shines. I'm not in the business so my opinions are formed mostly by what i read.

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