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Thread: Lubuntu just got worse

  1. #21
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by rdh61 View Post
    …My question I suppose is a wider philosophical one. Why the urge perpetually and in a mad rush to upgrade to 'better' technology if things are working just fine as they are for the average user? Surely that is one of the things we hate about Windows! I do accept that I am in a minority of one here so far as my Lubuntu 20.04 complaint is concerned and in my attitude to 'development', and probably also a bit of a Luddite.
    I'm afraid that this assessment is not accurate, or at least, it is highly misleading. Like all OSes, Ubuntu has many different goals, and what you call ease of use, while desirable, is not its primary purpose. Other goals include security, stability, capability, flexibility, power, performance, universality, currency, support for new hardware, cross-platform functionality, future-proofing…

    Were Canonical devs to be forced into an either/or choice, I daresay that any of the above would take precedence over "ease of use". Some of these goals are not incompatible with ease of use; others are. There's a reason Linux has garnered a reputation as a geek OS.

    The average user is not Canonical's target user. It is clearly gravitating towards the enterprise (especially cloud). It assumes that its average user base is more knowledgeable than the average Windows user (because this is, in fact, the case). It is not interested in displacing Windows (because such a goal is unrealistic). It even defines ease of use in very different terms than do non-technical users (when it comes to system maintenance, I now find the CLI to be easier to use than any GUI).

    I'm not trying to be argumentative. Mrs DuckHook, bless her, is in the same strictly non-technical cohort. Like you, she will never learn the difference between gtk2 vs gtk3 and would never ever want to. So let me phrase it in non-technical terms: the old Lubuntu uses a foundation that is no longer maintained. An unmaintained foundation will quickly fall into such disrepair that it will become an outright menace to safety and security. Therefore, there is no choice but to make the leap to a different foundation. Since it makes no sense to go to all the trouble of building new foundations for obsolete hardware, it is also a given that the new foundation will be more sophisticated and complex. In the same sense that modern internal combustion engines are far more sophisticated and complex than the ones my father drove, modern OSes have no choice but to follow the same arc.

    Ergo, the evolution of Lubuntu into Focal.

  2. #22
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by rdh61 View Post
    Hi,

    I have no idea what gtk2, gtk3, Qt5, Razor-Qt are and to be honest I don't see any reason why I should know. If I am not mistaken Ubuntu was designed to make Linux accessible to people like me who just want to use their computer without worrying about esoteric technicalities.
    ..
    My question I suppose is a wider philosophical one. Why the urge perpetually and in a mad rush to upgrade to 'better' technology if things are working just fine as they are for the average user? Surely that is one of the things we hate about Windows! I do accept that I am in a minority of one here so far as my Lubuntu 20.04 complaint is concerned and in my attitude to 'development', and probably also a bit of a Luddite.
    Yeah I agree, my desktop is older than your laptop, and I wouldn't use Lubuntu if it wasn't fast and usable on my equipment. My point was because I use it on limited equipment, I take my software choices into account..

    GTK2 is ~DEAD, has been for years now; all maintenance and security fixes for it are gone (except those related to GIMP). GTK started as the GIMP toolkit, and which changed to GTK+ (GIMP+GNOME Toolkit), but since GNOME upgraded to GTK3, only GIMP used features of GTK2 are maintained. LXDE used that old technology which didn't have all flaws fixed, so it was a potential security issue.

    The option was LXDE that used GTK3 (the devs went that way; then due to performance hits I tried to describe), switched and joined a different team (Razor-Qt) and created a lighter LXQt.

    The move was necessary for security reasons, the GTK developers are now working on GTK4, and gtk2 being treated as EOL

    Our computer software is built on a series of stacks. The DESKTOP/GUI has stacks below it that are necessary... To be secure we need all stacks patched.

    Bottom level stack is the linux kernel, above that ... (eventually toolkits be it GTK/Qt) .. then desktop (GUI) and finally the end-user programs above it all. In effect a chain. A chain is often said to be as weak as the weakest link.

    "Urge .. mad rush"

    It wasn't quick. The first Lubuntu LXQt image came out in 2015 (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...untu-UOS-15.10) taking years before it was decided it was "ready" for prime-time.
    Last edited by guiverc; June 9th, 2020 at 04:45 AM. Reason: I've tried to describe the same as Duck Hook's foundation point - I hadn't seen that post before I replied

  3. #23
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    Lubuntu

    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    OK, I take all your points (on the chin). It's still a bug that on my system Lubuntu 20.04 takes up to 10 seconds to respond after I have typed in my login password, and that some software (like Libreoffice) takes an age to open, to mention just a couple of things. But I'll go with it, for now. Thanks for the chat. I have one practical take home (can't remember who mentioned it, but thanks): get used to using the software shipped with the distro, rather than alternatives that I may have become used to from previous versions, as the former are more likely to be less demanding of resources with the new technology.

  4. #24
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Sounds like something else is going on. Check journal logs, dmesg. Also what does
    Code:
    systemd-analyze
    show?

  5. #25
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by guiverc View Post
    Yeah I agree, my desktop is older than your laptop, and I wouldn't use Lubuntu if it wasn't fast and usable on my equipment.
    Have you tried Kubuntu 20.04 on your older computer?

  6. #26
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by guiverc View Post
    Yeah I agree, my desktop is older than your laptop, and I wouldn't use Lubuntu if it wasn't fast and usable on my equipment.
    How old is old and what kind of system specs do you have.

    I just installed Lubuntu 20.04 on this 13 year old desktop and it runs great OOTB.

    The few bits of additional software is all from the default repositories.


    Code:
    thomas@hp-compaq:~$ inxi -Fxz
    System:    Kernel: 5.4.0-37-generic x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 9.3.0 Desktop: LXQt 0.14.1 
               Distro: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) 
    Machine:   Type: Desktop System: Hewlett-Packard product: HP Compaq dc7800p Small Form Factor v: N/A 
               serial: <filter> 
               Mobo: Hewlett-Packard model: 0AA8h serial: <filter> BIOS: Hewlett-Packard v: 786F1 v01.04 
               date: 07/18/2007 
    CPU:       Topology: Dual Core model: Intel Core2 Duo E6550 bits: 64 type: MCP arch: Core Merom rev: B 
               L2 cache: 4096 KiB 
               flags: lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 ssse3 vmx bogomips: 9310 
               Speed: 1995 MHz min/max: 1998/2333 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 1995 2: 1995 
    Graphics:  Device-1: Intel 82Q35 Express Integrated Graphics vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: i915 v: kernel 
               bus ID: 00:02.0 
               Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.8 driver: intel unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa 
               resolution: 1152x720~60Hz 
               OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel Q35 v: 1.4 Mesa 20.0.4 direct render: Yes 
    Audio:     Device-1: Intel 82801I HD Audio vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel 
               bus ID: 00:1b.0 
               Sound Server: ALSA v: k5.4.0-37-generic 
    Network:   Device-1: Intel 82566DM-2 Gigabit Network vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: e1000e v: 3.2.6-k 
               port: 1100 bus ID: 00:19.0 
               IF: enp0s25 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter> 
    Drives:    Local Storage: total: 149.05 GiB used: 6.47 GiB (4.3%) 
               ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Western Digital model: WD1600AAJS-22L7A0 size: 149.05 GiB 
    Partition: ID-1: / size: 145.71 GiB used: 6.47 GiB (4.4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1 
    Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 46.0 C mobo: 42.0 C 
               Fan Speeds (RPM): cpu: 1753 fan-2: 0 fan-3: 1228 fan-4: 995                                          
    Info:      Processes: 164 Uptime: 12h 08m Memory: 3.77 GiB used: 1007.8 MiB (26.1%) Init: systemd               
               runlevel: 5 Compilers: gcc: 9.3.0 Shell: bash v: 5.0.16 inxi: 3.0.38                                 
    thomas@hp-compaq:~$
    Last edited by poorguy; June 10th, 2020 at 01:10 PM.
    Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
    (Mark Twain)

  7. #27
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by VMC View Post
    Sounds like something else is going on. Check journal logs, dmesg. Also what does
    Code:
    systemd-analyze
    show?
    I am afraid I do not know what journal logs and dmesg are, where to find them or what to look for.

    Code:
    robert@roberts-work-laptop:~$ systemd-analyze
    Startup finished in 20.347s (firmware) + 13.710s (loader) + 8.484s (kernel) + 1min 9.577s (userspace) = 1min 52.120s 
    graphical.target reached after 1min 9.551s in userspace
    robert@roberts-work-laptop:~$

  8. #28
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    Aug 2017
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    melbourne, au
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    Lubuntu Development Release

    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanath View Post
    Have you tried Kubuntu 20.04 on your older computer?
    I ran Kubuntu focal fossa a few times on varying hardware including my main box; my intention was to reply with 'groovy' from my depreciated (old primary) box in a QA-test, but I've been having issues with groovy ISOs since Sunday (7-Jun)

    Quote Originally Posted by poorguy View Post
    How old is old and what kind of system specs do you have.
    [/code]
    My primary box is a 2009 dell optiplex d960. Specs as I note them on iso.qa.ubuntu.com are
    Code:
    dell [optiplex] 960 (c2q-q9400, 8gb, amd/ati cedar radeon hd 5000/6000/7350/8350)
    (I have 23 boxes listed in a text file, specs taken from `lshw` that I copy into iso.qa when I run a QA test on one). Your box is probably closest to
    Code:
    hp dc7700 (c2d-e6320, 5gb, nvidia quadro nvs 290)
    though if I'd successfully got Kubuntu daily to boot, and reply on that it'd have been on
    Code:
    dell [optiplex] 755 (c2d-e6850, 5gb, amd/ati radeon rv516/x1300/x1550)
    and have another HP somewhat similar spec'd
    Code:
    hp dc7900 (c2d-e8400, 4gb, intel 4 series integrated i915)
    My hp dc7700 did a huge proportion of my focal (likely eoan & earlier too) QA-test installs (it's a box that shares two screens [of the six] on this desk)

  9. #29
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    Quote Originally Posted by rdh61 View Post
    OK, I take all your points (on the chin).
    I do hope that no one here gives the impression that we are browbeating you. We all started from the same place you are now. No one is born knowing shell commands.

    I think it might help to extend my car analogy:

    People who don't care to be proficient in automotive knowledge buy Fords and Toyotas. There's nothing at all wrong with this. Perfectly respectable. Applies to most of the population in fact. That's why the majority of cars sold are consumer branded. In the IT world, Windows and Apple fulfill this role.

    But running Linux is like driving a race car, a specialty car or an antique. It assumes that the user is at least interested in the technicalities. And while it doesn't require that such enthusiasts be able to actually work on such cars, it is based on the expectation that the user knows the concepts and can speak the lingo—horsepower, torque, spark-plugs, carburetors and turbochargers. With Linux, such concepts reside on the command line. Sorta like getting in under the hood.
    Quote Originally Posted by rdh61 View Post
    I am afraid I do not know what journal logs and dmesg are, where to find them or what to look for.
    If you would like to now go beyond this thread to a real help request, I would recommend that you start a new thread in the "New To Ubuntu" subforum. I'm sure that the forum members who have already chimed in would be happy to assist you there. We want to keep this subforum an "around the water cooler" thing.

  10. #30
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    Re: Lubuntu just got worse

    @guiverc

    Interesting assortment of computers you're using.

    It's good to see I'm not the only one using older computers.

    I to have 20 plus old desktops that consist of oem factory builds and home builds.

    The hardware ranges from dual core processors and quad core processors and 4.0 GB and 8.0 GB DDR2 and DDR3 memory and integrated graphics adapters and discrete graphics adapters and mechanical hard drives.

    I have a couple of brand new desktops with an AMD APU and Intel HD Processor Graphics which the Wife uses with Windows 10 and which leaves the older computers for Linux which works very well on them.

    I have several connected online which allows me to run and learn about different distros.
    Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
    (Mark Twain)

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