My savings using Linux

[DuckHook]

Perhaps this is the wrong forum to find those people?

It was a rhetorical question/comment on my part. I doubt that many such people exist and I have neither the time nor the inclination to lurk on Windows forums to find out.

…OT. Sorry.

I don't think it's off topic at all. We are talking about savings, so any suggestions along that front are welcome.

I've always shied away from ARM-based SBCs because I have the impression that they're another learning curve. I'm probably wrong, but I have enough old AMD64-based HW to do the job, so there's not much incentive to explore.

Aside from R-Pis, which other ARM-based HW would you suggest?

[TheFu]

Aside from R-Pis, which other ARM-based HW would you suggest?

The r-pis are the cheap stuff for learning with a huge community doing projects.

Some of the ODroid and Rock64 SBCs are crazy fast for the prices with much better I/O capacity than the r-pi line had. With the r-pi v4, things are closer, but that model has cooling and power issues.

If you want x64 compatibility, AMD makes some 12W SBCs with AMD64 chips that support full AMD-v and have 3-8 intel NIC ports. Perfect for that small-biz/home router, provided you keep the wifi external - say a Ubiquiti AP. After all, when was the last time your router and AP needed to actually be in the same location? I want my router in a locked room, but the AP need to be in the center of the house, preferably ceiling mounted without any power cables. And a router running a maintained OS doesn't need to be hardware swapped every 3-5 yrs because a vendor stopped patching, but new wifi standards happen every 5-10 yrs, so swapping the AP (and only the AP) every 5 yrs shouldn't be a huge hassle.

[SeijiSensei]

I know of no one who runs Windows and yet substitutes FOSS alternatives like LibreOffice, GIMP, Inkscape, GnuCash, Scribus and LibreCad in lieu of the leading proprietary apps (MSOffice, MS Project, the Adobe suite, Quickbooks AutoCAD, etc).

I have an attorney friend that I migrated to LibreOffice from WordPerfect on his Windows desktop. When his Windows laptop went south, I installed Kubuntu on it. He uses that for browsing, so he didn't care about the OS. As long as I could get everything to print, he was happy.

The only person I know who built a computer from scratch is my daughter who wanted a gaming computer and wanted to build it herself. I bought her a kit from NewEgg as a graduation present. Otherwise I know of no one who builds computers from components, myself included. I have a nice little Dell T30 server running CentOS 6, an ASUS desktop connected to my TV, and two laptops, one of which is my office desktop. All those machines run Kubuntu. I once bought a Raspberry Pi kit to play around with, but I haven't looked at it in years.

I can't say that I saved much on the laptops since they all came with Windows pre-installed. Probably the biggest savings for me comes from statistical software. I use GNU gretl to run regressions and GNU PSPP to run crosstabs for the postings on my blog. Commercial programs like STATA or SPSS would cost me a fortune since I'm no longer connected with a university. If I were younger I'd learn R.

I have a VirtualBox snapshot of Windows 7 with Microsoft Access and Excel. I roll it out for tax season and other limited occasions. I like Access as an SQL frontend, which I sometimes use to manage the PostgreSQL databases I have via ODBC. I've always found LibreOffice Base a poor competitor to Access.

[DuckHook]

…If you want x64 compatibility, AMD makes some 12W SBCs with AMD64 chips that support full AMD-v and have 3-8 intel NIC ports.

Just websearched some of these. So cool. I can't believe I haven't looked at these before. Just goes to show what level of mental sloth I've fallen into.

I'm looking for candidates to act as Kodi boxes. These might also fit that bill. Have you ever used any in that capacity?

…I want my router in a locked room, but the AP need to be in the center of the house, preferably ceiling mounted without any power cables. And a router running a maintained OS doesn't need to be hardware swapped every 3-5 yrs because a vendor stopped patching, but new wifi standards happen every 5-10 yrs, so swapping the AP (and only the AP) every 5 yrs shouldn't be a huge hassle.

I know you don't like DD-WRT (and the security reasons why), but I've been happy with the OS and haven't had any security issues yet (that I'm aware of). I do keep my router updated though, and I acknowledge that it will never match your style of a full/proper and constantly updated Linux install in a dedicated box that is physically locked away in a cabinet.

[TheFu]

Just websearched some of these. So cool. I can't believe I haven't looked at these before. Just goes to show what level of mental sloth I've fallen into.

I only know because of a specific streaming video/vodcast that I watch. They've been crazy about SBCs, well beyond the point I want to care. Tonight they were talking about using an Odroid-XU4 as a GigE NAS with an external USB3.1 disk array ... and running kodi.

I'm looking for candidates to act as Kodi boxes. These might also fit that bill. Have you ever used any in that capacity?

If you don't need 4K video, a raspberry pi v3 running OSMC (a kodi-specific r-pi distro), is what I've been using for years. Also run it on a r-pi v2. I get all the media from a Plex Server using DLNA or an old addon called PlexBMC. I don't like any of the Plex clients on any platform, except the Plex webapp.

I know you don't like DD-WRT (and the security reasons why), but I've been happy with the OS and haven't had any security issues yet (that I'm aware of). I do keep my router updated though, and I acknowledge that it will never match your style of a full/proper and constantly updated Linux install in a dedicated box that is physically locked away in a cabinet.

My only complaint about dd-wrt was hardware support for any of my routers. Not really their issue, as I like to use hardware for decades provided it is still working (and sips power). My 4 routers the last 20 yrs have all had some level of dd-wrt support, but not nearly long enough for my tastes. If you are running dd-wrt on an x86/amd64 system and keep it current, I really don't have any issue with that solution. Same if your specialized router hardware is currently supported (as in patched every quarter) by some dd-wrt team. I just got tired of being expected to buy new HW every 3-4 yrs.

My router is running pfSense (BSD-based) on a purpose built amd64 machine, APU2c4. Specs: https://www.pcengines.ch/apu2c4.htm All-in about 4 yrs ago, it was $150. Today, I'm still happy with the 3 intel i210AT NICs and expect it to last 10 more years, easily. There are probably better solutions today, I'm not in the market. An ARM SBC that doesn't have 2 GigE intel NICs wouldn't meet minimal requirements. More is better. I like having different internal networks for different purposes. See diagram.
Wifi sets on the ISP gateway machine, outside my router. Wifi is treated like straight internet, untrusted.

Running a minimal Linux distro as a router would be fine too, provided it is patched.

See the core concern? Maintained firmware/software on the router hardware. There are non-BSD and non-Linux solutions for people who want to pay for a MikroTik or Ubiquiti router. Both those vendors have good reputations for security patches and their equipment isn't too expensive. However, Ubiquiti did something last month that is anti-privacy in a firmware update so, might want to reconsider them until that gets fixed. Not everyone cares about privacy.

Physical security requirements depend on the building access. If there are teen boys, more caution is likely necessary, especially if regex content filters are used.

[Skaperen]

Most of this is assuming people not running Linux would only use software that requires paid licences. Most of the free software that you mention, will also work with other OSs.

then you may lose some of the robustness and gain malware.

12-yr-old laptops or workstation ... have you looked at how much you could save in electricity by reducing this number and buying new, more efficient, systems?

and sell some chairs.

Among my friends and family, I find that almost all of them do. And they do so for the same reason that most of them use Windows: the prospect of rolling up their sleeves and dealing with the guts of a computer (or OS) makes their eyes glaze over.

So they would rather pay for a known quantity that makes no new intellectual demands on them than tackle yet another learning curve. I can't complain. This dynamic makes them my primary source for old HW.

basically, you'll be behind the edge by one wave. but you're still moving forward at the same rate. seems like a fair price, to me.

i have read that following a lifetime of what i would equate to "intellectual demands" reduces one's chance or degree of Alzheimers and other forms of dementia. i quit building from components, kernel hacking, and other similar things a few years ago and can feel a slight loss of short term memory. at least i'm still on Linux and active in retirement.

[DuckHook]

I have an attorney friend that I migrated to LibreOffice from WordPerfect on his Windows desktop.

Likewise. I introduced my daughter to LibreOffice and GIMP on her Windows laptop. Not sure if she is still using it or has gone back to MSOffice. All the kids are on Windows, mainly due to work requirements, gaming and inertia. They know I'm a geek, which gives rise to no end of snickering and snide asides at family dinners.

…Otherwise I know of no one who builds computers from components, myself included.

Well, now you know one other.

Seven years ago, I got tired of using nothing but hand-me-downs, so I splurged on an absurdly overpowered set of components that resulted in an extravagant monster of an uber-build. Even after seven years, it still manages to hold its own next to new boxes. Won't win any points for energy efficiency though.

Probably the biggest savings for me comes from statistical software. I use GNU gretl to run regressions and GNU PSPP to run crosstabs for the postings on my blog. Commercial programs like STATA or SPSS would cost me a fortune since I'm no longer connected with a university.

In keeping with the original topic, I'm curious… How much would you estimate you are saving?

I have a VirtualBox snapshot of Windows 7 with Microsoft Access and Excel. I roll it out for tax season and other limited occasions.

Likewise. I'd imagine lots of fellow forum members do the same. My VM is even older—XP. But since W7 is out of support, I suppose there's not really much difference. There's always some reason to keep Windows kicking around, some of them outright silly. I've downloaded government documents that will only open in Acrobat, which is not made for Linux anymore. <sigh> These are government docs. If anyone should be committed to the principle of universal accessibility, you would think our taxpayer-funded institutions would be it. I know: I've always been incurably idealistic.

…I've always found LibreOffice Base a poor competitor to Access.

Many people find FOSS alternatives to lack the features of their proprietary cousins. When I was still in harness, AutoCAD, the Adobe suite, Quark, MS Project, and enterprise-level accounting software simply had no viable FOSS alternatives. The landscape has changed somewhat, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm largely out of touch with the latest developments.

If you don't need 4K video, a raspberry pi v3 running OSMC (a kodi-specific r-pi distro), is what I've been using for years. Also run it on a r-pi v2. I get all the media from a Plex Server using DLNA or an old addon called PlexBMC. I don't like any of the Plex clients on any platform, except the Plex webapp.

Awesome suggestion. It would be wonderfully cost-effective. I don't need 4K, so will definitely check this out.

…See the core concern? Maintained firmware/software on the router hardware.

I both see this and agree with you. It's practically your calling-card issue on the forums!

If there are teen boys, more caution is likely necessary, especially if regex content filters are used.

The only teen boys around here will be grandchildren. And as dear as they are to me, that aspect of their lives isn't my problem anymore.

[TheFu]

I both see this and agree with you. It's practically your calling-card issue on the forums!

Computer Beliefs Summary:
Stay patched.
Backups, backups, backups.
Self-host everything you can.
Don't use cloudy services without encrypting everything.
Your passwords aren't complex or long enough. Never reuse the same password anywhere.
Use whole disk encryption for all portable storage devices, phones, laptops.
Don't trust phones, wifi, bluetooth or any RF protocols.
"They" ARE out to get you, me, and everyone they can.

Old Rocker, is that you?

[SeijiSensei]

Well, now you know one other.

Well, I'm sure you're not the only person on this forum who builds his or her own computers. I was talking about in real life.

In keeping with the original topic, I'm curious… How much would you estimate you are saving?

Last I looked an individual STATA license was around $800-900. SPSS would probably run about the same, but I haven't checked in a very long time. So maybe $1500-2000. SAS isn't cheap either.

[bernard010]

I have enjoyed Linux for years. I agree it is cost efficient, less time doing maintenance after every update. Linux has a place
in our household. Seems to be limitless what can be accomplished using Linux. Even gave a new start to an individuals computer
before windows expires. I let them try a few live OS's. Installed very nice. That is what I call cost efficiency.