Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 21

Thread: smart videogames

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Beans
    215

    Re: smart videogames

    P.S. Re: LiQu, the science robot's name is Adam.
    That's scary stuff!!!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Beans
    448
    Distro
    Kubuntu

    Re: smart videogames

    One of the things I really miss about video games, is the social aspect of single player games. You may have to follow along with me for a few here until you get my meaning.

    Since the invention of the internet, video games have become narrative walkthroughs. The latest / greatest game that comes out is torn open by gamers, and put back together piece by piece online for people to view and see. YouTube, GameFAQ's, IGN, etc. They all have these games broken down for everyone to follow along with. If you get stumped, you just fire up the internet on your cell phone or PC, and search for the answer.

    Pre-Internet gaming was when it was fun to talk to your friends about the game. One example was The Legend of Zelda. The map that came with the game showed you how to find the first 5 Dungeons, but there were 9 in all. You had to figure out where the other 4 Dungeons were at all on your own. It also had many other secrets, such as finding heart containers, secret shops, free money, and even places that charge you for breaking the door! But, now it only takes 2 seconds on Google to uncover all of the secrets of games that have just been released.

    The amazing thing about Ubuntu (spirit of the community) is that we all share what we've learned in order to help others understand Ubuntu better. I miss this aspect of gaming. Going to school, or calling your friends and talking to them about the game.

    "Hey man, did you know that you can slide through the wall at the end of world 1-2, and warp to the Minux World?"
    "Not kidding. When the game starts you put in 'Up+Up+Down+Down+Left+Right+Left+Right+B+A" and it will give you 30 guys?"
    "So, I have the white crystal... now what do I do? You have to kneel at the cliff wall for 10 seconds, and a tornado will appear and take you past it."
    "No man, you have to wait until he opens his mouth, then you throw the bomb in. When it explodes, you can hit it's tail."
    Holy Cripes on Toast!
    Attention is the currency of internet forums. - ticopelp

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Beans
    215

    Re: smart videogames

    ^ Maybe the Internet can solve the problem it created. Game updates.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Beans
    Hidden!
    Distro
    Kubuntu 18.04 Bionic Beaver

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    Pre-Internet gaming was when it was fun to talk to your friends about the game.
    that's true.

    but then back in the spectrum days i would wait for the magazine to arrive that had walk through. there are still some adventure games that i wasn't able to solve. some had the kind of puzzles you could never guess, while others depended on chance to solve them. lame. so walkthrough was the only way to find out what happened in the end since save game wasn't around or wasn't really working that well.
    Easy to understand Ubuntu manual with lots of pics: http://ubuntu-manual.org/
    Do i need antivirus/firewall in linux?
    Disk backup (works on newer PC): Clonezilla

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Beans
    448
    Distro
    Kubuntu

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by mastablasta View Post
    that's true.

    but then back in the spectrum days i would wait for the magazine to arrive that had walk through. there are still some adventure games that i wasn't able to solve. some had the kind of puzzles you could never guess, while others depended on chance to solve them. lame. so walkthrough was the only way to find out what happened in the end since save game wasn't around or wasn't really working that well.
    And see, that was great when you got the one hint that you needed to progress and then work forward. But now that you had a walkthrough in your hand, you could easily get through the rest of the game. No problems.

    A couple of games I remember from the 386 era were from Sierra On-Line. Kings Quest VI... There was one point where you had to pick a peppermint leaf off of a bush. Closer to the end of the game, there is a point you can progress, but not go back. And if you don't have that peppermint leaf... you have to load a REALLY old save game, and work through almost the entire game again, just to progress further.

    Gabriel Knight 3: The Map Puzzle. 'nuff said.

    These two examples are fantastic ideas of why someone would need a "hint" at how to progress. But once you get one hint... you have to get another.
    Holy Cripes on Toast!
    Attention is the currency of internet forums. - ticopelp

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Beans
    215

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    These two examples are fantastic ideas of why someone would need a "hint" at how to progress. But once you get one hint... you have to get another.
    A fast-paced series of successive hints could make walkthroughs superfluous. Moreover, text-based interactions are so computationally light that the game could store endless variations on the same progression. Moreover, continual online updates could prevent macroing, unless the macro actually understands English.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Beans
    448
    Distro
    Kubuntu

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by haplorrhine View Post
    A fast-paced series of successive hints could make walkthroughs superfluous. Moreover, text-based interactions are so computationally light that the game could store endless variations on the same progression. Moreover, continual online updates could prevent macroing, unless the macro actually understands English.
    Raw idea: How about making the puzzles (quests, misions, objectives, maps, etc.) proceduraly generated, and then add hints in-game (part off the procedure), but in order to use these hints you have to complete a tasks. This way, even if someone helps you with the task online, they cannot help you with the original puzzle, because it's computer specific.

    Imagine a procedurally generated Metroid Map. Each item in a new location. Bosses in different areas, etc. And there are ways to put the procedure together in order to generate the map in a "usable" form.
    Holy Cripes on Toast!
    Attention is the currency of internet forums. - ticopelp

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Beans
    215

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    Raw idea: How about making the puzzles (quests, misions, objectives, maps, etc.) proceduraly generated, and then add hints in-game (part off the procedure), but in order to use these hints you have to complete a tasks. This way, even if someone helps you with the task online, they cannot help you with the original puzzle, because it's computer specific.

    Imagine a procedurally generated Metroid Map. Each item in a new location. Bosses in different areas, etc. And there are ways to put the procedure together in order to generate the map in a "usable" form.
    The simulations's feasibility and the cognitive/perceptual simplicity will be related. In life, you can grasp objective reality or grasp another person's intersubjective statements about your shared reality, and the latter is called "perspective-taking." In the game, the shared knowledge can be game-specific, culturally universal, or ecologically universal. However, in a game, to comprehend the game is to grasp (more of) the game designer's perspective. To imagine the solution is to grasp the designer's message... I thought.

    This goes along with another hypothesis of mine, which proposes that language-processing and perspective-taking rely on reverse-processing mechanisms. To understand another's actions, you start from the resultant actions and arrive at the causal mental states that would produce those actions. Thus we humans might have reverse-processing mechanisms, for example "mirror neurons", that facilitate this. After all, if the message is new to you, how can your recognizing the conveyed message be less demanding than imagining the idea by yourself? What could be making this possible? It's a puzzle for sure.

    A text-based game would rely on culturally shared knowledge, lingual knowledge, that is already available (and, in subtle ways, potentially modifiable). The designer is simply producing a countless number of examples that approximate the concept. However, your level generator cannot take the human's perspective, tapping into our vast shared knowledge base. The level generator would essentially be running a simulation, and the simulation will be simpler and more glitch-free if the gameplay has simpler parts: more independent and less interdependent parts, more redundancy, etc. Thus we might wonder whether the alternative maps that are generated will really feel any different to the player, from the player's perspective. Maybe the simulation cannot consistently simulate the change unless the change is a minute one that would go unnoticed anyway.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Beans
    448
    Distro
    Kubuntu

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by haplorrhine View Post
    The simulations's feasibility and the cognitive/perceptual simplicity will be related. In life, you can grasp objective reality or grasp another person's intersubjective statements about your shared reality, and the latter is called "perspective-taking." In the game, the shared knowledge can be game-specific, culturally universal, or ecologically universal. However, in a game, to comprehend the game is to grasp (more of) the game designer's perspective. To imagine the solution is to grasp the designer's message... I thought.
    Yes. You would lose a bit of narrative in this sense, but it could be gained back in different ways. A good example of this is the CD-ROM Game, the 7th Guest. Once you know the solution to the puzzles, there is no more challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by haplorrhine View Post
    This goes along with another hypothesis of mine, which proposes that language-processing and perspective-taking rely on reverse-processing mechanisms. To understand another's actions, you start from the resultant actions and arrive at the causal mental states that would produce those actions. Thus we humans might have reverse-processing mechanisms, for example "mirror neurons", that facilitate this. After all, if the message is new to you, how can your recognizing the conveyed message be less demanding than imagining the idea by yourself? What could be making this possible? It's a puzzle for sure.
    You are literally explaining the two games I told you about at the beginning off this thread. Metal-Gear Solid 2, and Bioshock.

    Quote Originally Posted by haplorrhine View Post
    A text-based game would rely on culturally shared knowledge, lingual knowledge, that is already available (and, in subtle ways, potentially modifiable). The designer is simply producing a countless number of examples that approximate the concept. However, your level generator cannot take the human's perspective, tapping into our vast shared knowledge base. The level generator would essentially be running a simulation, and the simulation will be simpler and more glitch-free if the gameplay has simpler parts: more independent and less interdependent parts, more redundancy, etc. Thus we might wonder whether the alternative maps that are generated will really feel any different to the player, from the player's perspective. Maybe the simulation cannot consistently simulate the change unless the change is a minute one that would go unnoticed anyway.
    All games are Role-Playing Games. The game puts you into the life of the main character. Whether that is a fantasy filled mushroom induced fever dream, like Super Mario Brothers, or it's a first person action shooter like Call of Duty. Rarely do you see a direct connection from the player to the main character. This means it's not your personal narrative, it's narrating someone else.
    Holy Cripes on Toast!
    Attention is the currency of internet forums. - ticopelp

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Beans
    215

    Re: smart videogames

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    Yes. You would lose a bit of narrative in this sense, but it could be gained back in different ways. A good example of this is the CD-ROM Game, the 7th Guest. Once you know the solution to the puzzles, there is no more challenge.
    I don't think you understood, but considering that I was being so abstract I am really not sure. Revisiting my post, I see how it is unclear. You could say that reality is like a story narrative, but each human has a different perspective on it, a different sub-narrative. A single player RPG has one narrative, reality has many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibblet View Post
    You are literally explaining the two games I told you about at the beginning off this thread. Metal-Gear Solid 2, and Bioshock.
    No, I am describing a philosophical problem, a problem with what you might call an expectation-linked processing model for understanding language. Maybe we think through association, a kind of pavlovian matrix, linking those pairs of things that if seen externally would cause use to expect the other of the pair. However, although it is obvious that the speaker with the idea might in his own mind link his own idea to his choice of words, it is baffling or incredible that the listener somehow manages to link those words to an idea that he hasn't had yet. It is baffling to think that observational learning could happen without some kind of trial and error process, that we do not have to "try out" what we see a role-model do because we have essentially stolen the role-model's idea through watching his behavior.

    If this weren't the case, the listener's ability to generate the same idea, the same solution, would "depend on chance"—like mastablasta saidthe same chance processes with which the speaker generated the same idea. Only a listener who already had the same idea would be able to understand the speaker, and to everyone else the speaker would be speaking gibberish.

    If a puzzle videogame is more than the conditioning of well-timed, shaped responses... Moreover, if, as I implicitly hypothesized, a puzzle videogame "puzzles" the player by challenging him to dig through his own knowledge to find the knowledge that the designer employed in the puzzle's inception, then these puzzles are a similar kind of task. If what is described above, this reverse-processing, is uniquely human, then a computer will fail to generate a meaningful, comprehensible puzzle. The puzzle will depend on chance. However, I now have a challenge to this notion...

    ... If we wanted a game that forced players to use different perspectives to understand their world, we might use something like directed evolution. The perspectives, for example, might be the developmental perspective, the functional perspective, or any of Tinbergen's Four Questions. Directed evolution is a laboratory synthesis technique that attempts to "evolve" a new molecule with a particular function. In a similar way, a game engine might "evolve" a map that exhibits certain underlying principles, underlying principles that mirror the various perspectives used by scientists. We wouldn't have to assume that the computer could generate a meaningful, comprehensible map on its first try. However, the computer would do its own simulatory testing before the map is tested by actual human subjects. Common glitches or common inconsistencies might be weeded out mechanically.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •