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Thread: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Beans
    4

    Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    Hi. I use Xubuntu 18.04 for a year on my Thinkpad T470p (a laptop). From the beginning, the wifi crashed randomly once or twice a week, which forced me to reboot. This evening after I updated the OS and rebooted, and now the wifi crashes immediately. I can't use it at all.

    Code:
    $ ll /lib/firmware | grep iwlwifi-8265
    
    -rw-r--r--  1 root root 2389968 Nov 17  2017 iwlwifi-8265-21.ucode
    -rw-r--r--  1 root root 1811984 Apr 24  2018 iwlwifi-8265-22.ucode
    -rw-r--r--  1 root root 2234528 Dec  5  2017 iwlwifi-8265-27.ucode
    -rw-r--r--  1 root root 2307104 Dec  6  2017 iwlwifi-8265-31.ucode
    -rw-r--r--  1 root root 2440780 Apr 25  2018 iwlwifi-8265-34.ucode
    -rw-r--r--  1 root root 2498044 Apr 24 16:20 iwlwifi-8265-36.ucode
    There is a recent firmware: 'iwlwifi-8265-36.ucode'. But the system use the previous version 'iwlwifi-8265-34.ucode'. How to use the last one?

    Code:
    $ modinfo iwlwifi
    
    filename:       /lib/modules/4.15.0-50-generic/kernel/drivers/net/wireless/intel/iwlwifi/iwlwifi.ko
    license:        GPL
    author:         Copyright(c) 2003- 2015 Intel Corporation <linuxwifi@intel.com>
    description:    Intel(R) Wireless WiFi driver for Linux
    …
    firmware:       iwlwifi-3168-29.ucode
    firmware:       iwlwifi-3160-17.ucode
    firmware:       iwlwifi-7260-17.ucode
    firmware:       iwlwifi-8265-34.ucode
    firmware:       iwlwifi-8000C-34.ucode
    firmware:       iwlwifi-9260-th-b0-jf-b0-34.ucode
    firmware:       iwlwifi-9260-th-a0-jf-a0-34.ucode
    …
    srcversion:     1AD55A6BECD5B5DFB5BBF7E
    …
    depends:        cfg80211
    retpoline:      Y
    intree:         Y
    name:           iwlwifi
    vermagic:       4.15.0-50-generic SMP mod_unload 
    signat:         PKCS#7
    Code:
    $ dmesg | grep iwlwifi
    
    [   11.997372] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
    [   12.022749] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: loaded firmware version 34.0.1 op_mode iwlmvm
    [   12.096659] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Detected Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265, REV=0x230
    [   12.156942] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: base HW address: f8:34:41:41:a5:8c
    [   12.235849] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0 wlp3s0: renamed from wlan0
    [  123.068302] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Error sending SCAN_REQ_UMAC: time out after 2000ms.
    [  123.068314] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Current CMD queue read_ptr 58 write_ptr 59
    [  123.087177] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi transaction failed, dumping registers
    [  123.087178] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device config registers:
    [  123.087228] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: 24fd8086 00100000 02800078 00000000 00000004 00000000 00000000 00000000
    [  123.087230] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: 00000000 00000000 00000000 10108086 00000000 000000c8 00000000 00000100
    [  123.087231] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device memory mapped registers:
    [  123.087272] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff
    [  123.087274] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff
    [  123.087278] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device AER capability structure:
    [  123.087310] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: 14010001 00100000 00000000 00462031 00002000 00002000 00000014 40000001
    [  123.087311] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: 0000000f f2200460 00000000
    [  123.087313] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi parent port (0000:00:1c.0) config registers:
    [  123.087338] iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000000: a1108086 00100407 060400f1 00810000 00000000 00000000 00030300 200000f0
    [  123.087340] iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000020: f220f220 0001fff1 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000040 00000000 000001ff
    [  123.087342] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi root port (0000:00:1c.0) AER cap structure:
    [  123.087350] iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000000: 14010001 00000000 00010000 00060011 00000000 00002000 00000000 00000000
    [  123.087352] iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000020: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000007 00000000 000000e0
    Code:
    $ sudo journalctl -S "2019-05-17" | grep "iwlwifi"
    
    May 17 18:04:52 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
    May 17 18:04:52 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: loaded firmware version 34.0.1 op_mode iwlmvm
    May 17 18:04:52 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Detected Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265, REV=0x230
    May 17 18:04:52 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: base HW address: f8:34:41:41:a5:8c
    May 17 18:04:52 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0 wlp3s0: renamed from wlan0
    May 17 18:04:56 hopws sensors[1574]: iwlwifi-virtual-0
    May 17 18:04:57 hopws NetworkManager[1454]: <info>  [1558112697.7648] rfkill2: found WiFi radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1c.0/0000:03:00.0/ieee80211/phy0/rfkill2) (driver iwlwifi)
    May 17 18:05:49 hopws sudo[3336]:      hop : TTY=pts/0 ; PWD=/home/hop ; USER=root ; COMMAND=/sbin/modprobe iwlwifi
    May 17 18:06:51 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
    May 17 18:06:51 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: loaded firmware version 34.0.1 op_mode iwlmvm
    May 17 18:06:51 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Detected Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265, REV=0x230
    May 17 18:06:51 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: base HW address: f8:34:41:41:a5:8c
    May 17 18:06:51 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0 wlp3s0: renamed from wlan0
    May 17 18:06:56 hopws sensors[1495]: iwlwifi-virtual-0
    May 17 18:06:57 hopws NetworkManager[1410]: <info>  [1558112817.1443] rfkill2: found WiFi radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1c.0/0000:03:00.0/ieee80211/phy0/rfkill2) (driver iwlwifi)
    May 17 18:09:14 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
    May 17 18:09:14 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: loaded firmware version 34.0.1 op_mode iwlmvm
    May 17 18:09:14 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Detected Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265, REV=0x230
    May 17 18:09:14 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: base HW address: f8:34:41:41:a5:8c
    May 17 18:09:14 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0 wlp3s0: renamed from wlan0
    May 17 18:09:19 hopws sensors[1520]: iwlwifi-virtual-0
    May 17 18:09:19 hopws NetworkManager[1501]: <info>  [1558112959.6273] rfkill2: found WiFi radio killswitch (at /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1c.0/0000:03:00.0/ieee80211/phy0/rfkill2) (driver iwlwifi)
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Error sending SCAN_REQ_UMAC: time out after 2000ms.
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Current CMD queue read_ptr 58 write_ptr 59
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi transaction failed, dumping registers
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device config registers:
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: 24fd8086 00100000 02800078 00000000 00000004 00000000 00000000 00000000
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: 00000000 00000000 00000000 10108086 00000000 000000c8 00000000 00000100
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device memory mapped registers:
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device AER capability structure:
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: 14010001 00100000 00000000 00462031 00002000 00002000 00000014 40000001
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: 0000000f f2200460 00000000
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi parent port (0000:00:1c.0) config registers:
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000000: a1108086 00100407 060400f1 00810000 00000000 00000000 00030300 200000f0
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000020: f220f220 0001fff1 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000040 00000000 000001ff
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi root port (0000:00:1c.0) AER cap structure:
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000000: 14010001 00000000 00010000 00060011 00000000 00002000 00000000 00000000
    May 17 18:11:05 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000020: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000007 00000000 000000e0
    If someone finds a solution or a workaround it will save me!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Beans
    4

    Re: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    I found a solution here: https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2376104 .

    Edit file "/etc/modprobe.d/iwlwifi.conf", then append a new line:

    Code:
    options iwlwifi 11n_disable=8
    And reboot.
    It works now. Hope it will be stable.

    EDIT: After several hours, the wifi crashes again:

    Code:
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Error sending STATISTICS_CMD: time out after 2000ms.
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Current CMD queue read_ptr 73 write_ptr 74
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi transaction failed, dumping registers
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device config registers:
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: 24fd8086 00100000 02800078 00000000 00000004 00000000 00000000 00000000
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: 00000000 00000000 00000000 10108086 00000000 000000c8 00000000 00000100
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device memory mapped registers:
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff ffffffff
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi device AER capability structure:
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000000: 14010001 00100000 00000000 00462031 00002000 00002000 00000014 40000001
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 00000020: 0000000f f2200460 00000000
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi parent port (0000:00:1c.0) config registers:
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000000: a1108086 00100407 060400f1 00810000 00000000 00000000 00030300 200000f0
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000020: f220f220 0001fff1 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000040 00000000 000001ff
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: iwlwifi root port (0000:00:1c.0) AER cap structure:
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000000: 14010001 00000000 00010000 00060011 00000001 00002000 00000000 00000000
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:00:1c.0: 00000020: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000003 000000e0
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: ------------[ cut here ]------------
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: Timeout waiting for hardware access (CSR_GP_CNTRL 0xffffffff)
    May 18 08:57:50 hopws kernel: WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 1482 at /build/linux-3btXxq/linux-4.15.0/drivers/net/wireless/intel/iwlwifi/pcie/trans.c:1973 iwl_trans_pcie_grab_nic_access+0xea/0xf0 [iwlwifi]
    Then, on a next crash:

    Code:
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: HW error, resetting before reading
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Loaded firmware version: 34.0.1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | ADVANCED_SYSASSERT
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | trm_hw_status0
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | trm_hw_status1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | branchlink2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | interruptlink1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | interruptlink2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | data1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x8841B3D8 | data2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFA74D | data3
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x9362DE00 | beacon time
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFFFFF | tsf low
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | tsf hi
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | time gp1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x000007D0 | time gp2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | uCode revision type
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x8841B4B8 | uCode version major
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFA74D | uCode version minor
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xA62E8F00 | hw version
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFF8F7C | board version
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFF8F7C | hcmd
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | isr0
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | isr1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x1D1525C0 | isr2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFCB64 | isr3
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000408 | isr4
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | last cmd Id
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000001 | wait_event
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | l2p_control
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | l2p_duration
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | l2p_mhvalid
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000006 | l2p_addr_match
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | lmpm_pmg_sel
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000007 | timestamp
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | flow_handler
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Start IWL Error Log Dump:
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Status: 0x00000100, count: -22707
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xC07BF515 | ADVANCED_SYSASSERT
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFFFFF | umac branchlink1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xA62E0018 | umac branchlink2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFF8F7C | umac interruptlink1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00A01C30 | umac interruptlink2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | umac data1
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000080 | umac data2
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | umac data3
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x8841B4E0 | umac major
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFA74D | umac minor
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xC07AE82D | frame pointer
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0xFFFFFFFF | stack pointer
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000246 | last host cmd
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: 0x00000000 | isr status reg
    May 18 09:30:04 hopws kernel: ieee80211 phy0: Hardware restart was requested
    May 18 09:30:07 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Could not load the [0] uCode section
    May 18 09:30:07 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Failed to start INIT ucode: -5
    May 18 09:30:07 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Failed to run INIT ucode: -5
    May 18 09:30:07 hopws kernel: iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Failed to start RT ucode: -5
    May 18 09:30:09 hopws kernel: ------------[ cut here ]------------
    May 18 09:30:09 hopws kernel: Hardware became unavailable during restart.
    Last edited by paleo229; 2 Days Ago at 09:36 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    /home
    Beans
    7,494
    Distro
    Ubuntu 18.04 Bionic Beaver

    Re: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    See if disabling wifi power management helps
    Code:
    sudo sed -i 's/wifi.powersave = 3/wifi.powersave = 2/' /etc/NetworkManager/conf.d/default-wifi-powersave-on.conf
    Reboot

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Beans
    4

    Re: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy31 View Post
    See if disabling wifi power management helps
    Thank you for the response.

    I tried to disable the wifi power management in "/etc/NetworkManager/conf.d/default-wifi-powersave-on.conf", with "wifi.powersave = 2".
    No effect.

    I also tried to append " pci=noaer" in "/etc/default/grub". In the line "GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash pci=noaer"". Then I did "sudo update-grub".
    No effect.

    The wifi crashes several time a hour.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    /home
    Beans
    7,494
    Distro
    Ubuntu 18.04 Bionic Beaver

    Re: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    Try another grub edit to include
    Code:
    pcie_aspm=off

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Beans
    4

    Re: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    I tried GRUB options "pcie_aspm=off" alone then with "pci=noaer". The wifi crashed in both cases.

    How to use the last version of the firmware ("iwlwifi-8265-36.ucode" instead of "iwlwifi-8265-34.ucode")?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    /home
    Beans
    7,494
    Distro
    Ubuntu 18.04 Bionic Beaver

    Re: Wifi crash on Ubuntu 18.04 (Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless AC 8265)

    The highest version firmware is limited by source code in the kernel module iwlmvm IIRC

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