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Thread: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

  1. #31
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by QIII View Post
    There are dangers in an ecosystem that prizes the ability for each to go his own way. Who do we elect to populate the standards body? What is their mandate? What enforcement agency do they have? Does their mandate supercede the Linux Consortium/Linux Foundation? Is Linus bound by their decisions as he decides what should and should not be rolled into the kernel? Is the standards body bound to Linus' decisions and must they consult with Lake Oswego before making a move?
    I would think with a name like the Linux Foundation, they would be the one to post the standards/guidelines. And the community to vote and create it. Standards shouldn't be outsourced or maintained by some group outside the community.
    Last edited by panaman67; October 11th, 2017 at 05:06 AM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    IMO, you can't have choice and complete standardization. So many times people come bemoaning how segmented Linux is, without realizing that that's what makes it great. Package management is one of those things that people have very different opinions about, and that's part of the reason why there are so many different distros. Standardizing Linux package management is simply not going to happen for that reason. It's a non-starter.

    In short, stop trying to turn Linux into Windows.

  3. #33
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    IMO, you can't have choice and complete standardization. So many times people come bemoaning how segmented Linux is, without realizing that that's what makes it great. Package management is one of those things that people have very different opinions about, and that's part of the reason why there are so many different distros. Standardizing Linux package management is simply not going to happen for that reason. It's a non-starter.

    In short, stop trying to turn Linux into Windows.
    I would never want to turn Linux into Windows, thats not what i want at all. But there is still a LOT of room for improvement. And COMPLETE standardization is not the goal we should be aiming for. Low level standards in libraries. file systems, and package FORMAT is the goal. Then with good reasonable and helpful standards there, distros and developers can actually use there creativity to do amazing stuff.

    You can have a lot of package managers who all deal with a single package format.

    Realizing Linux has faults and trying to improve on what that all these people are passionate about, including me, doesnt mean im tring to "turn Linux into Windows". It just means im trying to get people talking and working on making Linux better.

  4. #34
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    The single package format has been done several times, and has never really taken off.
    Package and repo convergence has been seriously suggested several times, without notable traction.

    You really need to dig into the history: How and why the different package managers (and the corresponding repo infrastructure) developed, and why they didn't naturally converge 10-20 years ago.
    There's a lot of history that's based on the basic goals of Debian vs Red Hat, many of which are incompatible or irrelevant to the other.

    You're poking at stuff that the survivors of the distro wars have some mighty deep feelings and opinions about.
    Beware the flames if you're not appropriately sensitive.

  5. #35
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ian-weisser View Post
    The single package format has been done several times, and has never really taken off.
    Package and repo convergence has been seriously suggested several times, without notable traction.

    You really need to dig into the history: How and why the different package managers (and the corresponding repo infrastructure) developed, and why they didn't naturally converge 10-20 years ago.
    There's a lot of history that's based on the basic goals of Debian vs Red Hat, many of which are incompatible or irrelevant to the other.

    You're poking at stuff that the survivors of the distro wars have some mighty deep feelings and opinions about.
    Beware the flames if you're not appropriately sensitive.
    Fair enough. I understand I have a lot to learn. Im going to do more research on the so called "Distro wars". Could it be that with this time passed, that the Linux community and the people here since the beginning are willing to give it another shot? Im very interested in Linux and want to learn all i can.

  6. #36
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    You can convince anybody to do just about anything...if you have enough patience to be careful about your application of psychology.
    Sure, it's possible to convince the management of Red Hat and the voting majority of Debian Developers to invest a great deal of resources together on a single package system.
    But it sure won't be easy.
    I think that implementing (yet another) standard from anyone else will be ignored (again).

    There's a lot of issues to consider: Backwards compatibility, broken scripts, angry users...and for us, all the extra support requirements of all three of those.
    It's not like .debs and .rpms are perfect systems. Any cruise through help forums will demonstrate that they are not. PackageKit, Snaps, Flatpacks, AppImages, and more are distro-agnostic software-management systems that try to overcome the problems with older package methods.
    Last edited by ian-weisser; October 12th, 2017 at 06:57 PM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by panaman67 View Post
    ... Im very interested in Linux and want to learn all i can.
    Are you interested in learning how to use Linux or in learning about Linux? You can do the latter without the former. If you want to learn how to use Linux, test out various distros and pick the one you like most and start using it

    BTW, Linux is about freedom; people may not want to be told what they should or shouldn't do or what they should or shouldn't think.

  8. #38
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    Re: Linux Standard Base adoption/development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by vasa1 View Post
    Are you interested in learning how to use Linux or in learning about Linux? You can do the latter without the former. If you want to learn how to use Linux, test out various distros and pick the one you like most and start using it

    BTW, Linux is about freedom; people may not want to be told what they should or shouldn't do or what they should or shouldn't think.
    Exactly, who would be deciding which of us is no longer allowed to create a distro? Or design yet another method of handling packages. Freedom is messy, and requires the end user to invest a lot of time figuring out what choice is best for him.

    And regarding "standards" and MS, what about things like open document standards and web standards both of which MS agreed to but ignore on a regular basis.

    I much prefer the chaos of freedom and free choice to any centralized standard. I also prefer PC's to cloud computing, but I'm a dinosaur and remember when we first moved from mainframe/terminal to personal computing. I don't want to go back.

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