Growing disillusionment with Linux on the Desktop

[rrnbtter]

Greetings,
There is a big money hustle involved in this whole process. A couple of years ago I bought a HP all-in-one printer even though the box had "Windows Only" clearly displayed on the box. It worked perfect when my computer booted in every respect including the scanner. I think I was using Precise/dev at the time. I have to wonder who hustled HP to put "Windows Only" on the box. Then I recently bought a Canon Pixma printer without doing any research and guess what, no Linux drivers on Canons website. I did some research and they had the needed driver on their EU website (more hustle). Some may think that MS is staying ahead of Linux because of quality but I think it is mostly due to hustle. I am basically getting to the point where I am only supporting devices that have native Linux drivers. That is ultimately the solution. Certainly we wouldn't have what we have without the Developers reverse engineered drivers but at some point it becomes and supports laziness on the part of the device manufacturers.
Also, on my part, I like to use a bit of premium software on my "Vivid" system, which some of the Linux purists may frown upon. But to this day (and I started with Karmic) I haven't spent as much for premium Linux software as I spent on Windows antivirus and spyware protection alone.
In addition, Last week I bought a SSD for my wife's 10" Intel Atom powered Netbook with 2 Gig of RAM and installed Vivid PreRelease. The thing runs better than any computer I have ever used and my wife is delighted with the results. 120 Gig SSD = $57 from Amazon, new computer = +$300.

Don't get me wrong I still use my Windows license that came with my computer. I consider Windows to be a "Utility" that is run in a VM for the purpose of updating my TomTom and doing my taxes once a year with TaxAct. Other than that I can do without the MS hustle that keeps their monopoly going.

Finally, In my opinion "Mark" has far exceeded his original goal of providing a free operating system for African school children. It's hard to believe that anyone could accomplish so much with so little. Much of the success is due to major corporations jumping on board for their own aspirations and many governments world wide. We the desktop users reap the benefits (mostly for free).

I retired from my consulting business in which I aided small business customers (20 computers or less) in navigating the caveats, exceptions and idiosyncrasies of Windows OS starting with MSDos 3.1. In all those years there was not a single release that would run updated software without the purchase of a new computer. I was making $120 per hr back in the 90's. At the same time my teen aged son and his buddies put together a RedHat network which at the time became one of the biggest networks in town and mostly for playing games. At that time I resolved to switch to Linux someday but had to wait until my Windows career ended due to time constraints. I have been running the development version since day one starting with Karmic and have used nothing but RC kernels since I discovered them a few years back. I must say it has been a great drink of cool-aid ahhhhhhh! Can't wait till WW fires up.

[buzzingrobot]

Without a specific distribution that's preinstalled on a readily available big-box product, the notion of Linux displacing its desktop competitors will always be a myth and a pipedream. Not enough people care enough about the issues that motivate the typical Linus enthusiast to ever constitute any kind of influential market demographic. Almost everyone considers a "computer" to be the hardware combined with the software that runs on it. Consumers consider computers and computing devices to be unitary things, and that's how they want to buy and use them.

Things like touchpads, etc. are often inextricably intertwined with proprietary code that makes them usable, or even at all functional. If vendors do not write Linux code, then support in Linux will *always* be non-existent or marginally adequate (see Nouveau, for example.)

The people who make and use Linux should focus on making Linux as good as they can make it, and let the chips fall where they may. That is *not* the same as seeking to displace Microsoft and Apple. That's totally out of the control of Linux.

[calzakk]

I switched my work laptop from Windows to Linux a few months back, after dabbling with Linux for several years (at home, and in virtual machines). I'm using Kubuntu and am a fan of KDE. I still have a Windows virtual machine, but my main OS is now Linux.

But now I'm moving to a new laptop, and despite my fondness for Linux I'm often thinking "is it really worth it?"

I consider myself a Windows expert, I've spent most of my career developing on Windows. I'm certainly no fan of MS, I bash them at every opportunity, and haven't 'upgraded' to Windows 8. But I'm still relatively inexperienced with Linux, constantly fighting things and reading forum posts and help articles. Doing all this is just not productive, not when time is so precious.

So I'm seriously thinking about going fully back to Windows, because - and I hate to say it - "it just works". I'm mainly talking hardware and drivers. It seems everybody using Linux has hardware issues - or, rather, driver issues. Ok, that's down to the vendors, they focus on Windows and Mac because that's where the demand lies (mostly), and you really can't blame them for that.

Applications on Linux aren't generally a problem. I love the F/OSS ethos, so I'm forgiving when a Linux application looks outdated compared to the proprietary version it attempts to mimic. (Of course, I use Visual Studio and - let's face it - no other C/C++ IDE comes close to it in terms of functionality, performance, and ease-of-use. But, as MS have recently announced, with VS 2015 you'll be able to build and debug on a remote Linux machine directly from Windows.)

My excursion with Linux has been fun and eye-opening, but also very frustrating at times. It'll continue, but probably only in a 'dabbling' sense again (occasional VM use, SSH sessions) rather than as a main OS. Very disappointing

[night_sky2]

I've been an avid (GNU/)Linux user for close to (more than?) a decade & have heartily been drinking the CoolAid.Maybe the desktop is not the best place for Linux, and maybe what we really need is a glorified browser host, and in that regard, maybe Chromebooks are better than traditional laptops & desktops (like my beefy X1 Carbon I'm trying to find a great OS for)?
Maybe Windows or OS/X with Linux VM's are a better way to go?

We have upgraded all our computers to Chromebooks and Chromeboxes instead of Ubuntu laptops and desktops as we initally intended. We saved quite a lot of money because Chrome OS machines are the cheapest you can find on the market. Truth be told, I think Chrome OS is the future of desktop computing, and it's easier to learn. With Google's support behind it things are much smoother and convenient, and once you understand the system's current limitations and it's rift from traditional desktop experience, it's a very interesting platform to discover.

Since the hardware is optimized for and tied to the operating system, there is no problem of compatibility or missing drivers, not much fiddling around. Things just work as intended. And it's sooooo fast. I am a big fan of Lubuntu and lightweight OSes in general and this is exactly what Chrome OS is about. And built on a Linux foundation!

[jimmy-frydkaer]

The easiest thing to do, no matter what, is to kill the messenger.

Considering oneself an expert on Windows does not mean that you can transfer your expertise directly to Linux and just go on with your life as usual.

Blaming Ubuntu, or GNU/Linux in general, for driver problems speaks volumes of your lack of understanding that you, coming from Windows, are starting from scratch. Your Windows expertise is worth nothing on a Linux system. If you can't admit that to yourself, stay on Windows.

Bashing Linux for your lack of knowledge regarding the platform does not make any difference to people using Linux on their desktop every day, most of them stops reading the second the read the term "Windows Expert".

I have been using Ubuntu GNU/Linux since Ubuntu 6.10. Before that I've used SUSE 8.5 Professional. Before that I first started back in January 1991 on DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.0. Then in 1995 I became a Novell NetWare CNE. Earned a living as a sys-admin until I lost interest in the job and decided to try some thing else.

I have been using development-editions since 7.04 but still does not see myself as an expert on Linux.

I have used Ubuntu on a variety of hardware since 2006. I even succeeded in installing Ubuntu 7.10 on a Asus ieee device replacing Windows. Desktop computers, laptops and servers. Different hardware but not a single device Ubuntu didn't have a driver for.

I've had driver issues installing Debian, never on Ubuntu.

[buzzingrobot]

Blaming Ubuntu, or GNU/Linux in general, for driver problems...

Drivers are a market issue. Vendors create drivers for the hardware they want to sell to the Windows market. That's the incentive. These same vendors perceive no Linux market for their products, so they have no incentive to write Linux drivers.

Add to that the simple reality that FOSS driver developers are dependent on trying to reverse-engineer a hardware peripheral if the vendor does not release sufficient data about the device, and few do.

So, yes, it is naive to come to Linux and expect the same level of driver support found in Windows, especially for new products.

That said, driver support in Linux is remarkably good in general, and the kernel's ablity to identify hardware and load the correct drivers is strong.

It's not like everything is cookies and cream in Windows. E.g., the Win7 install image has no network drivers, which means it cannot access Microsoft servers to complete the installation. Nor does it warn the user. Users must have already secured the correct driver for their specfic hardware, burned it to a USB stick, and have it attached and be ready to install that driver early in the install process.

[vtpoet2]

Please link.

Can't be bothered. When Ubuntuforums redid their password system, I ended up with vtpoet & vtpoet2; and I can't be bothered sorting out how to use the correct account (it seems to pick *for* you). So it signs me in as different users depending on which laptop I use.There also used to be a way to easily check the history of ones posts. That option is either no longer available or buried somewhere; and I can't be bothered to sort that out either. I've got better things to do than chase after Ubuntuforum's UI "innovations". However, if you're keenly interested, I'm sure you could find the post as readily (or un-readily as the case may be).

I'm more worried that there seems to be some rather systemic problems in Linux, especially around the desktop - a *LOT* having to do with lacklustre quality control, despite "many eyes".

Right, but I hear complaints in regards to every other OS & DE -- just depends on what one's used to, I think.

Get rid of X11, fat desktops & desktop apps, give me a browser, distributed HTTP(2?) client-server apps, hooks & services, and my end-points be arbitrary nodes to my "cloud".

I've installed Linux on about a dozen computers for friends and acquaintances and none of them, reading your last sentence, would have a clue as to what you're talking about. The desktop OS/DE is alive and well in my corner of the country. It seems to me you're over-generalizing based on your own needs. I don't know if any one Linux distro/DE will overtake Windows or MAC, but Linux has conquered the world in other respects. It just may be a matter of time...

[Geoffrey_Arndt]

Fascinating thread . . . . especially when viewed from an IT perspective:

• +1 for posts by SeijiSensei, buzzingrobot, jimmy-frydkaer
• Have installed used 5 distinct HP printer products, and 4 models from Epson . . ONE device took some effort (=< 2 hrs) (epson) because of newness of hardware. The rest were brain-dead easy to setup (like under 5 minutes, cumulative). But even for other makes (Brother, Canon, etc., more support now by far than just 6 or 7 years ago). Reason for support? LOTS of organizations have Linux HW compatibility on their vendor must-have lists.
• Most significant factor in Linux growth is NOT the consumer market - but private and public organizations that DO NOT WANT VENDOR LOCK-IN. But the consumer ultimately benefits from this.
• A growing majority of "significant" software is being developed in Linux (again, for enterprises) . . . just check out GitHub & Sourceforge. Projects must be cross-platform and OPEN (foss) so can be adapted, modified.
• ANY comparison of hardware between Linux and Win-Apple is invalid IF Linux is not pre-installed on the hardware (beyond GPU integration, UEFI vendor implementation is so screwed up, post-installs can be a nightmare on certain OEM hardware). In other words, let's compare Apples to Apples.
• Yes, . . . "Gaming" is still a big deal and an advantage for Windows on consumer PC's . . . But, is a non-factor for business, science, education, etc., etc. (as it should be). And, Linux gaming is improving substantially thanks to Valve and other vendors supplementing their designs & products.

Beyond all the above (and more could be listed but this is already long enough) . . . IT IS A HORRIBLE practice to allow monopolies, oligopolies, or "Cartels" to dominate access & use of data & information. That aspect alone should justify an increased usage and support for full open-source systems.

PS: I tried, but just couldn't resist a couple other points in response to the "Original Post" . .

> Original poster implies lack of touch-screen gui support is a major negative re Linux vs Windows or IOS or Andoid (linux based btw) . . . well, just thinking about doing any serious work via touch only is night-marish . . . no way (and I do use android). For targeted apps (inventory mgmt, email, gps, etc touch is OK), for complex data fields screens - - no way (and that's 95% of the serious work). Having said all this, with Canonicals work on phone, . . . touch will not be an issue in near future.

> Of all this threads various points, very little is posted by OP et-all about the on-going security issues of windows vs linux. The layers of specialized software required to mitigate these vulnerabilities (of Windows) is a huge negative (for SOHO or consumer). For business, it just adds beau-coup in $$. & time.

[calzakk]

Considering oneself an expert on Windows does not mean that you can transfer your expertise directly to Linux and just go on with your life as usual.

Blaming Ubuntu, or GNU/Linux in general, for driver problems speaks volumes of your lack of understanding that you, coming from Windows, are starting from scratch. Your Windows expertise is worth nothing on a Linux system. If you can't admit that to yourself, stay on Windows.

Bashing Linux for your lack of knowledge regarding the platform does not make any difference to people using Linux on their desktop every day, most of them stops reading the second the read the term "Windows Expert".

jimmy-frydkaer, you missed my point and went on the attack! I can 'get by' on Linux, it's presumptuous to assume that I don't know what I'm doing. As I said, I love the F/OSS ethos, I'm a fan of KDE and I've dabbled with Linux for several years. But my point was that my time is increasingly precious, and I'm finding that I no longer have the desire to solve the problems I encounter with Linux. I just want things to work, and for me that probably means going back to Windows. Unfortunately, and disappointingly.

The title of this thread grabbed my attention the moment I saw it, because it's exactly how I currently feel. Most of you are probably entirely happy with Linux, and that's great. But how many users return to Windows because of their frustrations with Linux? There must be plenty. (Of course, there are plenty that come to Linux because of their frustrations with Windows!)

[SeijiSensei]

But how many users return to Windows because of their frustrations with Linux? There must be plenty. (Of course, there are plenty that come to Linux because of their frustrations with Windows!)

I don't know what you think of as "plenty," but on a percentage basis were talking about a tiny fraction of users ever switching from Windows to Linux. Even if a third of them return to Windows, that's still an even tinier fraction of computer users.

There was never enough "Linux on the desktop" to become disillusioned. I've been using Linux for two decades. Over that time desktop usage may have grown from 1-2% to 3-5% of the installed base, but probably not much more. Nor is it likely to grow unless the "desktop" is expanded to include phones and tablets.

Here are requests to Wikimedia by operating system: https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedi...ingSystems.htm. Ubuntu is the most popular Linux flavor but constitutes merely one-half of one percent of requests. Everything else comes in at just under 0.9%, making the total desktop Linux share something like 1.4% of requests.

If you count Android as an implementation of "Linux" as Wikimedia does, then Linux is on a lot of "desktops." Over fourteen percent of the requests come from Android devices. That might have something to do with the prominence of Wikipedia in Google searches though.