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Thread: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

  1. #91
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Well there are a few technical differences between the two. Mir from the start was built with "convergence" in mind, Wayland wasn't (although it can support it), Wayland after all is the protocol, not the the implementation (that is left to Gnome or KDE, user choice..). The problem is that both of them technical parts aside, do the same thing in different ways as a default. They both use the OpenGL/ES, DRI and KMS (Which Wayland is being credited for even though most was long before Wayland, Some is even the work of Xfree86, some argue as Wayland is by the same people it should have the same credits, but that's a whole different argument).

    A lot of this brings back memories of the current init situation in a lot of ways, but the rolls are reversed. Canonical/Google made a great replacement for sysvinit, it was worked on continuously (even now it is still going, but people will tell you its dead or failed as it is only used in Ubuntu, Chrome and Chrome OS) it is called Upstart and started in 2006. It ties to a lot of other components like Plymouth and X (soon to be mir) but its aim is more "desktop" orientated than server (pretty boot screens, non-switching) This continued until 2010 when two Redhat devs announced systemd, which was immediately accepted as the "de facto" standard for the sysvinit replacement even though the remedy only supports Linux whereas Upstart supports Linux and BSD, dropping Upstart and Canonical/Googles work. They also included another problem systemd is packaged with files to increase its performance as standard (some rsyslog stuff), but Upstart not being an "upstream" blessed project any more does not have the files it needs packaged as standard in anything but Ubuntu and Googles Chrome OS. So in conclusion systemd on the face of it seemed faster and cleaner, although it is not "event driven". There was an amazing explanation about this at this link eli5_the_systemd_vs_initupstart_controversy

    I know this is not current, but I do feel it is actually quite pertinent to the discussion, this shows that forcing people into only one supported project is not a new thing with linux, it also shows that Redhat and others are willing to turn what was accepted as the "community" solution for more than 4 years on its head and go off to duplicate the effort when it benefits them and their hold on Linux.

    Both parties are not justified in this argument, but it has became another battle for Ubuntu against the two "big dogs" as it were in Linux, Intel/Redhat. The more they control the less likely it will become for linux to ever take a hold on the "desktop" market, hell they been at it for as long as X has been, they have had over 26 years to give the desktop an open source OS, up to now they have either failed or are not interested in the desktop linux market. Intel is definitely not interested in the desktop market they have Microsoft Windows (You know the thing that was such a big failure, but still holds the majority of desktops).

    Now look at what happened after Ubuntu came about, a project that actually cares about Linux on a desktop as well as the other platforms and areas. It had and still has massive support from users (yes us guys here discussing this from Ubuntu machines) and companies inside and outside of the Linux/Open Source market. Canonical its investor which includes the "NIH SABDFL" everyone seems to love to hate Mr Shuttleworth, who has a direction he wants to take with Ubuntu.

    Whether we all agree or disagree with the crap going around at the moment, Ubuntu even with all the changes, the mud flinging exercises and the FUD (The comments on the first announce of Mir) from both Canonical and outside projects. I do still feel that at the base of it is a leadership and community that still wants the best "Linux based Desktop distribution" around. That it wants to improve things for everyone not just Ubuntu, but it is a rather large goal..

    Since 2004 when Ubuntu was released in a lot of the "end-users" cases Ubuntu has became synonymous with Linux (this is not the right thing, but neither is games or hardware manufactures calling a Windows PC just PC.. especially considering the actual PC runs a lot more than Windows). For tech savvy yeah we know the difference, for them well they need a little education on the subject.

    Some of the younger users probably had the first taste of linux on Ubuntu. Then maybe they went on to bigger and better things, maybe they went to where the grass was greener, maybe they stuck around with Ubuntu and now are classed as OAPs (Like me >.> or at least that's how it feels lol). Whichever choice they made it was theirs and I hope them all the best.

    And I'm doing it again.. on a reminiscing trip to who knows where. Sorry.

  2. #92
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    I'm going to stop quoting and commenting on every point that people make because... well it's too much work

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoiaGuyver View Post
    Well there are a few technical differences between the two. Mir from the start was built with "convergence" in mind, Wayland wasn't (although it can support it), Wayland after all is the protocol, not the the implementation (that is left to Gnome or KDE, user choice..). The problem is that both of them technical parts aside, do the same thing in different ways as a default. They both use the OpenGL/ES, DRI and KMS (Which Wayland is being credited for even though most was long before Wayland, Some is even the work of Xfree86, some argue as Wayland is by the same people it should have the same credits, but that's a whole different argument).

    A lot of this brings back memories of the current init situation in a lot of ways, but the rolls are reversed. Canonical/Google made a great replacement for sysvinit, it was worked on continuously (even now it is still going, but people will tell you its dead or failed as it is only used in Ubuntu, Chrome and Chrome OS) it is called Upstart and started in 2006. It ties to a lot of other components like Plymouth and X (soon to be mir) but its aim is more "desktop" orientated than server (pretty boot screens, non-switching) This continued until 2010 when two Redhat devs announced systemd, which was immediately accepted as the "de facto" standard for the sysvinit replacement even though the remedy only supports Linux whereas Upstart supports Linux and BSD, dropping Upstart and Canonical/Googles work. They also included another problem systemd is packaged with files to increase its performance as standard (some rsyslog stuff), but Upstart not being an "upstream" blessed project any more does not have the files it needs packaged as standard in anything but Ubuntu and Googles Chrome OS. So in conclusion systemd on the face of it seemed faster and cleaner, although it is not "event driven". There was an amazing explanation about this at this link eli5_the_systemd_vs_initupstart_controversy

    I know this is not current, but I do feel it is actually quite pertinent to the discussion, this shows that forcing people into only one supported project is not a new thing with linux, it also shows that Redhat and others are willing to turn what was accepted as the "community" solution for more than 4 years on its head and go off to duplicate the effort when it benefits them and their hold on Linux.
    So the obvious problem with this comparison is that systemd and upstart have fundamentally different architectures, and there are technical reasons for why distribution developer prefer systemd. Note that fedora actually used upstart for a while before systemd existed. Contrast to Mir and Wayland where the only reason for Mir to exist is so that Canonical will have a modern display server under it's control without needing to work together with the Wayland community.

    Now look at what happened after Ubuntu came about, a project that actually cares about Linux on a desktop as well as the other platforms and areas. It had and still has massive support from users (yes us guys here discussing this from Ubuntu machines) and companies inside and outside of the Linux/Open Source market. Canonical its investor which includes the "NIH SABDFL" everyone seems to love to hate Mr Shuttleworth, who has a direction he wants to take with Ubuntu.
    This seems plain disrespectful of almost every other Linux distribution. You think they don't care about Linux on the desktop? And perhaps Shuttleworth earned the hatred - when such a large communityof people have decided that they don't like a person, maybe there is a reason?

  3. #93
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDShu View Post


    ...perhaps Shuttleworth earned the hatred - when such a large communityof people have decided that they don't like a person, maybe there is a reason?

    That, frankly, is an outlandish statement. How many people in this so-called community have even met the man? What right do they, or any of us, have to cast judgement?

    Working up that depth of emotion, any emotion, over software -- software they receive as a gift -- is a sign of a life out of whack.

  4. #94
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    You'll need to substantiate that "reasons... were not sound" assertion.
    I was referring to the false claims they made about Wayland.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    But, would you make your company's future dependent on a product you cannot control? Sure, Mir is in-house, and there are very good reasons it.

    Among other things, Canonical needs to be able to sign contracts that say X will be delivered on Y. They cannot do that if X depends on code written and mainiained by some amorphous mass of FOSS developers who work to their own schedule and interests. And, that includes some who would screw Canonical just for jollies.
    I get that developing things in-house, even if an alternative already exists, can be beneficial sometimes. My question is, why do they need to develop their own display server? They're not developing their own kernel, right? So why is it so important to have their own display server, specifically? I think this is a valid question and I haven't seen it addressed by Canonical. If the concern is that Wayland development is too slow, why did they decide to start from scratch with their own instead of contributing to the project they originally agreed to support?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Mir doesn't stand a chance of making video support "worse in Linux". If it doesn't work, Canonical will be stuck with it; no one else will use it. if it is demonstrably better than X or Wayland, people who care about performance more than NIH syndrome will use it.
    I don't agree with this. What if company A decides to develop drivers for Wayland only, and company B decides to develop drivers for Mir only (which is quite possible if both Mir and Wayland end up performing on par and there is no clear "winner")? Suddenly those who own hardware from those companies have had their ability to choose a distro severely limited.
    Last edited by montag dp; September 11th, 2013 at 03:02 AM.

  5. #95
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    I was referring to the false claims they made about Wayland.

    I get that developing things in-house, even if an alternative already exists, can be beneficial sometimes. My question is, why do they need to develop their own display server? They're not developing their own kernel, right? So why is it so important to have their own display server, specifically? I think this is a valid question and I haven't seen it addressed by Canonical. If the concern is that Wayland development is too slow, why did they decide to start from scratch with their own instead of contributing more to the project they originally agreed to support?

    I don't agree with this. What if company A decides to develop drivers for Wayland only, and company B decides to develop drivers for Mir only? Suddenly those who own hardware from those companies have had their ability to choose a distro severely limited.
    They maintain their own kernels.

    It isn't that in-house development is "beneficial". It's that you can't do business if you can't meet schedule commitments made to customers. That's tough enough with your own developers, almost impossible if you are dependent on "community" developers who are indifferent, if not hostile, to your business needs.

    Company A and Company B cannot go back in time to eliminate the drivers already in use. So, no one loses any choice. Besides, they give the stuff away. We don't pay for it. They have no obligation to us at all.

  6. #96
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    That, frankly, is an outlandish statement. How many people in this so-called community have even met the man? What right do they, or any of us, have to cast judgement?
    So are we not allowed to cast judgement on anybody? I (even more frankly) disagree. Everybody is allowed to have an opinion. And to clarify, I am assuming you mean casting judgement as in deciding to dislike him.

    Working up that depth of emotion, any emotion, over software -- software they receive as a gift -- is a sign of a life out of whack.
    I also do not see the software as a gift. I don't think Mark Shuttleworth does either. Telling me to be grateful for it is demeaning to me. And why can't I have emotions over it anyway? There are people' who's lives are heavily impacted, in both good and bad ways, by various software.

  7. #97
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't

    The argument for systemd may be fair it does on the face of it looks better. But what do actual distros think?

    Fuduntu devs didnt like it systemd-new-pulseaudio

    "Systemd, whether by design, or circumstance, is largely becoming non-optional. Inclusion of core technologies such as dbus and udev are reducing choice for linux users and developers, rather than expanding them--which is the very antithesis of the idea of Free/Open Source software." -Shawn W Dunn

    "ConsoleKit + UDev + Syslog + DBus + Polkit + Sysinit + this + that. RedHat Enterprise Systemd is the best product we've ever been force fed. We are facing being forced to integrate it at Fuduntu because it's replacing so many core tools now that it's impossible to continue the project without it. Those "idiots" that don't like binary logs aren't "idiots", some of us actually have some idea of what we are talking about, but what do I know.." -Andrew Wyatt Founder of Fuduntu

    Ofcourse this is the "communities" choice these things aren't being forced on anyone by making it a core component that is depended on by other important parts.. The same is happening now with Wayland.. people are being force fed it they don't have a choice but to use it as everything is reliant on it. It's basically a "You will use this, or nothing at all" scenario. If I wanted to stay in that environment why would I move away from Windows/Mac OS-X?

    Now Ubuntu could be seen the same way, people could say we were force fed Unity, Upstart but there is a difference, even outside of the fact that we can choose to replace those parts freely if we want to. There was one man at the beginning of this that funded the whole thing, there still is one man with the help of a business still funding all this. Every distro has a community that because of Redhat and others have no choice in what they use.

    Can you name any other distribution that aims at the desktop market through ease of use, compatibility, software? OpenSuse is maybe the only other contender for it, and while OpenSuse is a great linux distro it also has a lot of issues to contend with within the general community.

    I dont see how Shuttleworth has earned any more hatred than the likes of Intel or Redhat over the years. Red+Hat,Ubuntu Trends

    But hey when such a large community like the person or the distribution, maybe there is a reason.
    Last edited by ZoiaGuyver; September 11th, 2013 at 03:39 AM.

  8. #98
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    They maintain their own kernels.

    It isn't that in-house development is "beneficial". It's that you can't do business if you can't meet schedule commitments made to customers. That's tough enough with your own developers, almost impossible if you are dependent on "community" developers who are indifferent, if not hostile, to your business needs.
    Canonical has themselves to thank for any hostility of the Wayland developers towards them. That would have been different if Canonical hadn't gone back on their word and developed Mir secretly, so I don't see it as a good reason to develop Mir in-house.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Company A and Company B cannot go back in time to eliminate the drivers already in use. So, no one loses any choice.
    If they want to use a modern display server they do. Particularly if X eventually stops being supported by the distro maintainers.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Besides, they give the stuff away. We don't pay for it. They have no obligation to us at all.
    I don't see how that is relevant to this discussion.
    Last edited by montag dp; September 11th, 2013 at 03:50 AM.

  9. #99
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    I personally think that Intel is shooting themselves in the foot. I've seen figures stating that there are about 70 million users of Linux based distributions, and Canonical claims there are about 20 million Ubuntu users, to me that looks like close to 1/3 of all Linux distribution users, use Ubuntu. I'm planning on building a new system in the new year, and this unsubstantiated silliness just pushed me away from even considering Intel products for my next build.

    I'll put up with a cpu that is a few percentage points slower than the current Intel offerings, I"ve never had any really good experience with Intel products so for me it really isn't that hard a decision to make.

    I'm not going to argue the merits of either graphics rendering system, as there aren't any released versions of any distribution that use wayland or mir at this time. I've played with both, and neither seems to be better or worse than the other.

    Maybe it's time to create a poll with the pre-requisite that if you vote, you have to provide proof that you are actually using one or the other.

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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoiaGuyver View Post
    A lot of this brings back memories of the current init situation in a lot of ways, but the rolls are reversed. Canonical/Google made a great replacement for sysvinit, it was worked on continuously (even now it is still going, but people will tell you its dead or failed as it is only used in Ubuntu, Chrome and Chrome OS) it is called Upstart and started in 2006. It ties to a lot of other components like Plymouth and X (soon to be mir) but its aim is more "desktop" orientated than server (pretty boot screens, non-switching) This continued until 2010 when two Redhat devs announced systemd, which was immediately accepted as the "de facto" standard for the sysvinit replacement even though the remedy only supports Linux whereas Upstart supports Linux and BSD, dropping Upstart and Canonical/Googles work.
    I'm just speculating here, but could this (i.e., the larger community dropping Upstart to favour systemd) have anything at all to do with licensing. I know Upstart is also GPL just like systemd, but does contributing to it have any requirement for signing copyright assignment agreements or something like that? I understand that's the case for contributing to Mir.

    Both parties are not justified in this argument, but it has became another battle for Ubuntu against the two "big dogs" as it were in Linux, Intel/Redhat. The more they control the less likely it will become for linux to ever take a hold on the "desktop" market, [...]

    Now look at what happened after Ubuntu came about, a project that actually cares about Linux on a desktop as well as the other platforms and areas.
    The thing though is Canonical seems to be increasingly preoccupied with mobile systems, as they seem to be convinced that's where they can find any commercial success if at all. Desktops are being treated as second class citizens everywhere these days.

    As always hardware innovations and consumer reception will always drive the software by and large, as seen by the big shift from Workstations to PC form factors, then now the shift towards mobile. Redhat and Canonical both are profit driven (even if nominally) companies so they need to sell something somewhere. For Redhat it has long been enterprise support, and Canonical is now foraying into both mobile as well as enterprise support. The desktop code base will only be maintained by both as a sort of common launching point for their tailored solutions, and we have to live with that.

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