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Thread: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

  1. #61
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoiaGuyver View Post
    And yet again we have people arguing over what imo is total nonsense, hear say and a load of FUD..

    How many DE's does linux have?

    How many Photo Apps?

    How many IM Clients?

    How many Distros that do there own thing?

    How many Package management systems?

    How many Display servers?

    So If you can answer all those questions you will see that everything bar the Display Server has a lot of competition X.org has been the same "standard" for the last 26+ years ofc it's well supported..

    Switch to Wayland now how much driver support is there? (which btw Wayland isn't the server on its own, Weston is the compositor plus god knows what else will be there by the time they get a release out in a distro)

    So where is all this fragmentation talk coming from.. If people think they can do better than Canonical has done then tbh put up or shut up.. If we don't like something we get to "choose" to move on, but when people move on why come back just to bash the project? You have no stake in what happens if you are not testing/using the systems that you are trying to dismiss..

    I use ubuntu daily and have done for years, when Unity came out, I pretty much went on a rant about how useless and crap it was, how it would never take off and it would not survive.. I now put my foot in my mouth every day when I turn on my PC/Laptop/Tablet.. they all run Unity as the DE. In a way I'm glad i was so wrong, but it also makes me think about the Canonical projects in a new light. Canonical and the Ubuntu people were ready to stand up for what they believed was the right direction for Ubuntu (Unity). I'm glad they had the gumption for it, they have proved me wrong, Unity isn't perfect and never will be, but my god it's came a long way in such a short time.

    Mir I believe will be the same, aslong as they stick to the guns, all these people talking about jumping ship... let em, I hear the grass is always greener somewhere else..

    Anyways think I've ranted enough..

    TLR is if you don't use Ubuntu you don't get a say in what is going on with Mir, If you do use Ubuntu then you can have a say and aslong as you bring a credible argument about it on a technical level then there are plenty to listen, work with and improve Mir.

    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
    Winston Churchill

    or maybe

    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
    Winston Churchill
    Actually it is very functional now for me. I use the desktop wall and use the scale addon in Compiz to pick applications from all virtual desktops, so point the mouse at a hot corner to expose all applications and use the mouse to pick and focus on an application and it will switch to the application and the desktop it is on. I also find the edge flip function of the wall really handy. In KDE (Fedora 19) I enable the same hot corner mechanism to pick desktops, I prefer it to using the panel (use the cube there). So in terms of functions they are almost the same in the way I set them up, but I find animation a lot more fluid in Unity than in KDE and Compiz is more efficient in terms of cpu usage than kwin (I used a ppa version of compiz optimized for performance, but even stock compiz performs better than kwin on my box, to make sure it is not a Fedora issue I have tested Kubuntu and basically the same result: compiz uses less cpu than kwin in general)

  2. #62
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    @vietcanada: fine...then use linux mint with the mate desktop...but just because you do not like unity doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it also...simply not the case at all...in fact, many unity haters/dislikers when 11.04 came out have since turned around and now enjoy and use it...and there has been many improvements to it through the latest version in 13.04...

    When i started with linux, i initially used ubuntu but eventually switched to mint because it preferred the mint layout of 1 panel on bottom and the slab menu over having 2 panels on ubuntu with a fan out menu for apps and no search...When unity arrived, at first i wasn't sure i liked it but as i began using it, began to really appreciate it and switched back to ubuntu....

    I also think Ubuntu looks better then mint as far as eye candy goes...nicer colors, more polished and professional looking too...almost as nice as a commercial OS like windows or mac...
    So that, along with the neat unity dock, sent me home to good ol' ubuntu again...

    Enjoy your mint but please stop trying to convince everyone else that ubuntu and unity is not as good as mint...you are just going around in circles and wasting your time...

  3. #63
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by craig10x View Post
    @vietcanada: fine...then use linux mint with the mate desktop...but just because you do not like unity doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it also...simply not the case at all...in fact, many unity haters/dislikers when 11.04 came out have since turned around and now enjoy and use it...and there has been many improvements to it through the latest version in 13.04...

    When i started with linux, i initially used ubuntu but eventually switched to mint because it preferred the mint layout of 1 panel on bottom and the slab menu over having 2 panels on ubuntu with a fan out menu for apps and no search...When unity arrived, at first i wasn't sure i liked it but as i began using it, began to really appreciate it and switched back to ubuntu....

    I also think Ubuntu looks better then mint as far as eye candy goes...nicer colors, more polished and professional looking too...almost as nice as a commercial OS like windows or mac...
    So that, along with the neat unity dock, sent me home to good ol' ubuntu again...

    Enjoy your mint but please stop trying to convince everyone else that ubuntu and unity is not as good as mint...you are just going around in circles and wasting your time...
    Wow! I have never made this argument nor am I trying to convert users from one distro to another.

    My original post in this thread was pointing out that the use of 'hater' to characterize people with a different opinion is inflammatory. It does not serve the debate about Mir or Unity. Furthermore it negatively influenced my opinion of what this Shuttlesworth guy was reported to have said before I even read it. Name calling is just a passive agressive ad hoc attack IMHO.

    As far as my preferences I think I have explained them fairly well with the help of an expert opinion on why MS 8 has failed. I did that in another thread titled- Has Ubuntu lost it's Ubuntu?

    To be breif, the expert suggests that MS 8 is designed for passive (my word) content consumption whereas previously MS OSs were designed for productivity and multi tasking. I think the same can be said of the new Ubuntu compared to the old (10.10 for example). Furthermore she (the expert) goes on to explain the impact on the user from the changes to the human interface with their PC.

    This does not in any way imply that one is better than the other. For me it explains why I prefer Mint and gave up on Ubuntu. IMHO Ubuntu has become a content consumption OS but I need a productivity, mutlitasking OS.

    Some users have adapted the new Ubuntu to lessen the cognitive burden of the new interface and/or give back some productivity/ multi tasking (adding workplaces ap for example). But for me I found it simpler just to go with Mint.

    Hopefully this contributes to the Unity debate by clarifying the issues. Why do some users not like Unity? Well I think that "usability expert Raluca Budiu of the Nielsen Norman Group" does a very nice job of explaining that eevn though she is discussing MS 8. Thsi does make me or anyone else who dislikes Unity a 'hater' or 'heretic' or 'apostate'. The ease with which posters blindly attack those with a differing opinion is disconterting. I am not accusing you of this. Perhaps you just came to the wrong conclusion trying to understand what I am saying. I hope this helps. In fact I hope this helps to cool down the debate.

    Once agin- the new Ubuntu has become IMHO a content consumption oriented OS but I need an designed for productivity and multi tasking. Hense losing things like work spaces, seperate x-screens, quick mouse based access to software and docs on my PC, visible control buttons, always visible windows, access to all control buttons etc. are important to me. Mint Mate 13 gives me all that back. Gnome and have taken away seperate x-screens (hence Mate 13 not 14 or 15 or Cinnamon). If Mir or Wayland or something else gives that back then they'll get my attention and possible support. I am a user looking for the best OS for my needs. The new Ubuntu doesn't even ballpark that.
    Last edited by VietCanada; August 2nd, 2013 at 02:24 AM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by craig10x View Post
    @vietcanada: fine...then use linux mint with the mate desktop...but just because you do not like unity doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it also...simply not the case at all...in fact, many unity haters/dislikers when 11.04 came out have since turned around and now enjoy and use it...and there has been many improvements to it through the latest version in 13.04...

    When i started with linux, i initially used ubuntu but eventually switched to mint because it preferred the mint layout of 1 panel on bottom and the slab menu over having 2 panels on ubuntu with a fan out menu for apps and no search...When unity arrived, at first i wasn't sure i liked it but as i began using it, began to really appreciate it and switched back to ubuntu....

    I also think Ubuntu looks better then mint as far as eye candy goes...nicer colors, more polished and professional looking too...almost as nice as a commercial OS like windows or mac...
    So that, along with the neat unity dock, sent me home to good ol' ubuntu again...

    Enjoy your mint but please stop trying to convince everyone else that ubuntu and unity is not as good as mint...you are just going around in circles and wasting your time...
    Wow! I have never made this argument nor am I trying to convert users from one distro to another.

    My original post in this thread was pointing out that the use of 'hater' to characterize people with a different opinion is inflammatory. It does not serve the debate about Mir or Unity. Furthermore it negatively influenced my opinion of whatever the guy was reported to have said before I even read it.

    As far as my preferences I think I have explained them fairly well with the help of an expert opinion on why MS 8 has failed. I did that in another thread titled- Has Ubuntu lost it's Ubuntu?

    To be breifl, the expert suggests that MS 8 is designed for passive (my word) content consumption whereas previously MS OSs were designed for productivity and multi tasking. I think the same can be said of the new Ubuntu compared to the old (10.10 for example). Furthermore she (the expert) goes on to explain the impact on the user from the changes to the human interface with their PC.

    This does not in any way imply that one is better than the other. For me it explains why I prefer Mint and gave up on Ubuntu. IMHO Ubuntu has become a content consumption OS but I need a productivity, mutlitasking OS.

    Some users have adapted the new Ubuntu to lessen the cognitive burden of the new interface and/or give back some productivity/ multi tasking (adding workplaces ap for example). But for me I found it simpler just to go with Mint.

    Hopefully this contributes to the Unity debate by clarifying the issues. Why do some users not like Unity? Well I think that "usability expert Raluca Budiu of the Nielsen Norman Group" does a very nice job of explaining that even though she is discussing MS 8. This does not make me or anyone else who dislikes Unity a 'hater' or 'heretic' or 'apostate'. The ease with which posters blindly attack those with a differing opinion is disconterting. I am not accusing you of this. Perhaps you just came to the wrong conclusion trying to understand what I am saying. I hope this helps. In fact I hope this helps to cool down the debate.

    Once again- the new Ubuntu has become IMHO a content consumption oriented OS but I need an OS designed for productivity and multi tasking. Hense losing things like work spaces, separate x-screens, quick mouse based access to software and docs on my PC, visible control buttons, always visible windows, access to all control buttons etc. are important to me. Mint Mate 13 gives me all that back. Gnome and Unity have taken away seperate x-screens (hence Mate 13 not 14 or 15 or Cinnamon, U10.10 is no longer supported with updates). If Mir or Wayland or something else gives that back then they'll get my attention and possible support. I am a user looking for the best OS for my needs. The new Ubuntu doesn't even ballpark that.
    Last edited by VietCanada; August 2nd, 2013 at 02:31 AM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by VietCanada View Post
    To be breifl, the expert suggests that MS 8 is designed for passive (my word) content consumption whereas previously MS OSs were designed for productivity and multi tasking. I think the same can be said of the new Ubuntu compared to the old (10.10 for example). Furthermore she (the expert) goes on to explain the impact on the user from the changes to the human interface with their PC.
    I actually find the work flow very fluid on Unity, with multiple desktops, task switching and so on. I find the dash to be a much faster way to find applications and files than to use the panel and menu (if you use the mouse a lot you should also enable some plugins in CCSM) It is true that it is not as customizable as say KDE or gnome 2 but then 1) the default by and large are reasonably enough that it doesn't require a lot of complicated customization and 2) people who spend a lot of time customizing their desktop are probably doing that for non productive reasons anyway.

    I have no idea about Win8 because I never use it. But I fail to see how this is relevant to Ubuntu. If you think you cannot be productive and multitask with Unity then I think it is because you don't know how to use it. Instead of preaching an opinion which you are not very informed about and quoting some "expert" on another totally different OS and DE as if it lends any credence to your opinion may I suggest that you spend perhaps a few hours to learn how to use Unity to reach a more informed opinion?

    But then of course you are perfectly entitled to not liking Unity, or just prefer a Windows like experience on Mint, those are legit choices on your part. But please don't criticize Unity for the wrong reasons. I use my computer for productive work rather than just "passive content consumption" and I happen to like Unity very much. I think your way of making the point is somewhat insulting as if you can only be productive with a Windows XP style layout.
    Last edited by monkeybrain20122; August 2nd, 2013 at 03:43 AM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by zalta1980 View Post
    Actually it is very functional now for me. I use the desktop wall and use the scale addon in Compiz to pick applications from all virtual desktops, so point the mouse at a hot corner to expose all applications and use the mouse to pick and focus on an application and it will switch to the application and the desktop it is on. I also find the edge flip function of the wall really handy. In KDE (Fedora 19) I enable the same hot corner mechanism to pick desktops, I prefer it to using the panel (use the cube there). So in terms of functions they are almost the same in the way I set them up, but I find animation a lot more fluid in Unity than in KDE and Compiz is more efficient in terms of cpu usage than kwin (I used a ppa version of compiz optimized for performance, but even stock compiz performs better than kwin on my box, to make sure it is not a Fedora issue I have tested Kubuntu and basically the same result: compiz uses less cpu than kwin in general)
    Hey this was my post!!!??? How come now it got reposted apparently on a different thread by someone else? Some glitches on the forum?

  7. #67
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    @monkeybrain20122, obviously zalta 1980 liked your post enough to copy/paste it, and call it his own.

  8. #68
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    @vietcanada: I think monkeybrain20122 makes a lot of very valid points...unity IS very productive to use...and like him, i am not just a passive user either...You should spend the time to get "into" using unity for a few weeks...then see if you still think the same way as you do now...

    As i mentioned in the other thread to you...i have used both (the layout you got in mint mate as well as unity) and can be EQUALLY productive using EITHER one...

  9. #69
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeybrain20122 View Post
    I actually find the work flow very fluid on Unity, with multiple desktops, task switching and so on. I find the dash to be a much faster way to find applications and files than to use the panel and menu (if you use the mouse a lot you should also enable some plugins in CCSM) It is true that it is not as customizable as say KDE or gnome 2 but then 1) the default by and large are reasonably enough that it doesn't require a lot of complicated customization and 2) people who spend a lot of time customizing their desktop are probably doing that for non productive reasons anyway.

    I have no idea about Win8 because I never use it. But I fail to see how this is relevant to Ubuntu. If you think you cannot be productive and multitask with Unity then I think it is because you don't know how to use it. Instead of preaching an opinion which you are not very informed about and quoting some "expert" on another totally different OS and DE as if it lends any credence to your opinion may I suggest that you spend perhaps a few hours to learn how to use Unity to reach a more informed opinion?

    But then of course you are perfectly entitled to not liking Unity, or just prefer a Windows like experience on Mint, those are legit choices on your part. But please don't criticize Unity for the wrong reasons. I use my computer for productive work rather than just "passive content consumption" and I happen to like Unity very much. I think your way of making the point is somewhat insulting as if you can only be productive with a Windows XP style layout.
    Sorry guys but all I see here is someone who completely ignored or did not read what i posted.

    I really have no idea why it's so important for some to attack anyone who doesn't like the current Ubuntu set up, passively (the response above) or aggresively (OP post re:haters). Unless of course it's about money then I understand. But customers are not that stupid man. Marketting Ubuntu as a work station would only result in a massive loss of credibility to Ubuntu that may bleed over onto Linux as a whole. This is very irresponsible. Linux is free, taking advantage of that to make a personal profit regardless of the impact on all those who've put blood, sweat and tears into it earns one honourary mention on this list- http://www.theonion.com/articles/***...iness-c,33334/

    There is no reality that the new Ubuntu is designed soley for production and multi tasking. I have made that quite clear with my observations and referencing the usability expert. But I didn't need to. Any honest observer can see that this is true. that's why I can use an article meant for MS 8 to make the point.

    Simply ignoring me and reposting that Ubuntu is perfect for productivity and multi tasking is either obtuse or dishonest. Nice try though.

  10. #70
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    OK. I think we've gotten to the point where things are becoming uncordial.

    Thanks for your input, everyone.

    Thread closed.
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