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Thread: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

  1. #41
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Thank you again, JDShu.

    I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. I know you are a programmer. I didn't know that Canonical was doing work to patch QT with Mir (whatever that is, language I am guessing?), but it only makes sense that they would, when I think of it. You knew that when spoke and your link allows me to know that too.

    One Psychiatrist's Definition of Insanity: Knowing what one should do and doing differently

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  2. #42
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Deleted, because I don't know what I am talking about, again.

    Thanks, everyone.
    Last edited by mikodo; July 19th, 2013 at 10:07 PM.
    One Psychiatrist's Definition of Insanity: Knowing what one should do and doing differently

    Backup Your System!

  3. #43
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Okay I'm just curious here, does the Mir switch affect the other flavors of ubuntu, like lubuntu for instance, or is this just a unity thing?

  4. #44
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Kubuntu.org says they don't intend to switch.
    The Left Coast Geek * The Community ATI Driver Wiki * Find what you need in the Ubuntu Community wikis

    Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!
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  5. #45
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Same with Lubuntu. They won't switch for 13.10. Maybe later. Xubuntu's testers will keep testing until the last possible moment, sometime in August, and then come to a decision.
    Shortened urls: See point #11 here. And clicking on them could be risky.
    Use ubuntu-support-status with caution.

  6. #46
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Wayland support is already in gtk, qt it is worked on (http://wayland.freedesktop.org/qt5.html) and here is Fedora's rawhide report concerning wayland (https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipe...ch/180546.html) so for the moment it seems Canonical has to patch in Mir support on their own and in previous mentioned toolkits as it is only a problem of a single distribution.

  7. #47
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post
    Wayland support is already in gtk, qt it is worked on (http://wayland.freedesktop.org/qt5.html) and here is Fedora's rawhide report concerning wayland (https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipe...ch/180546.html) so for the moment it seems Canonical has to patch in Mir support on their own and in previous mentioned toolkits as it is only a problem of a single distribution.
    I see a lot of potential problems like this listed around various Linux enthusiast sites, lots of technical things that might/should/probably will/maybe not cause issues for Ubuntu now it's chosen a different direction. But surely they must have thought and considered all these eventualities before pushing this button? I just can't imagine for a moment that they blindly decided to forge their own way, and never considered X possibility or Y outcome.

    My personal approach as an end user and not a programmer is, wait and see. I dual boot Ubuntu with another Linux, so hey if it all goes wrong I have some fallback plans. It's not like other distros can't deliver a similarly polished experience to one degree or another. But I am curious to see how Ubuntu handles these issues that people highlight, and whether or not it can successfully define a place for itself in this way.
    AMD Phenom X4 945, 4Gb Crucial 800Mhz DDR2 RAM, 1Tb SATA III HDD, AMD Radeon R7 250X [Oibaf]

  8. #48
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliteNeophyte View Post
    Okay I'm just curious here, does the Mir switch affect the other flavors of ubuntu, like lubuntu for instance, or is this just a unity thing?
    As others already said Kubuntu and Lubuntu publicly announced their plans and won't use Mir (at least for now). Ubuntu Gnome developer said in Ubuntu dev mailing list that their plan is to migrate to Wayland as soon as Gnome is ready.

    Edubuntu and Ubuntu Kylin use Unity, so Mir it is.

    About XFCE derivatives, Xubuntu devs have postponed their decision until mid August. A user in a forum who said to be a Mythubuntu developer said recently that they were considering Mir. Ubuntu Studio I don't know, my guess is that they will do what Xubuntu does.

    As of non official derivatives, Mint said they had no interest in Mir as soon as it was announced, Bodhi reacted with a wait and see attitude to the Mir announcement, but they use Enlightenment so Wayland seems the logical route because Enlightenment supports Wayland strongly.

    ---

    Answering more directly to the question about how does it affect other DEs it's important to note that the solution offered to non- Unity DEs is to work on top a legacy compatibility layer called XMir, essentially a stripped down X11 server working inside a Mir Window. For now Unity itself will be working on XMir too. XMir is based on XWayland which was designed to run individual applications, not desktop environments.

    Kubuntu took the decision following KDE's advice, KDE wouldn't be able to support Kubuntu if they used XMir because if a problem arised in Kubuntu that didn't affect other distros, KDE devs would have to conclude that it's an XMir problem an close the bug, it seems that the first superficial tests already showed inconsistencies.

    Lubuntu was worried about the performance hit. As Wayland, Mir requires compositing, which works best with hardware 3D acceleration, and Lubuntu is often used in hardware that lacks 3D acceleration support . There are compositing solutions that don't require 3D acceleration, some put the CPU on it's knees, some others work better. Under X KDE's window manager KWin can use Xrender and it's fast enough to use even if not all the effects work, and the Kwin developer recently demonstrated his progress on Wayland compositor that doesn't require hardware acceleration. But in the Mir camp I don't know of any comparable solution, even with hardware acceleration XMir presents a poorer performance than good old X11, Canonical developers announced this week that they are on it, and disabling compositing when using XMir is one of the proposed workarounds.

    Xubuntu devs apparently have had problems to test XMir (Crashes...)

  9. #49
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    But you see I most worry about apps that are built for kde or sofourth and tryin g to use them in Mir and not having them work.
    I use Kdenlive for video editing and clementine for music playing, I dont want to lose those applications because of hard headedness.

  10. #50
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    Re: Marks Shuttleworth's message to all Ubuntu haters.

    Referring to the original post.

    I think it's important for people or companies to honestly explain their motivations when they come under the fire that Ubuntu has because of Unity and now Mir.

    I think using the word 'Ubuntu hater' in the thread title is inflammatory. Name calling is just a lame attempt to diminish the arguments of critics by calling them a name that is subjective and unattractive. It is insulting and suggests that counter arguments have already been dismissed before they've even been uttered. It suggests autocraticsm or authoritarianism. It gave me a bad attitude about this thread before I even opened it. It is an attitude that IMHO and experience only serves to increase criticism and divisions. There is no reality that it is helpful. It's 'us vs them', an ad hoc attack on an identifiable group, poisonous and a debate killer. It is exclusive and isolating.

    I am not a programmer. I am just a user. I use the OS that gives me what I want. I don't care about unity or mir. I care that Ubuntu changed their OS in a way that it no longer works the way I want my OS to work. I complained a bit here, got nowhere, got insulted, had my intelligence questioned, it was inferred that I am some kind of backward, stone age troglidite. So I moved on. I now use Mint Mate. Customer lost. Friends and associates and pretty much every other human being I meet that's in the market for an OS are all potentially customers lost. I was within a hair's breadth of converting a medium sized business to Ubuntu 10.10 a couple years back. I brought it up with another business that was unhappy with their current system. Today I wouldn't even try. I'm just some guy. I don't know, is that 'mission accomplished' for those who would stifle debate on the direction of Ubuntu?

    Speaking of new markets that are ripe for exploiting- how about an OS for desk top computers? It seems everyone is in such haste to abandon that market. I am unaware of any stats showing that desktop owners are tossing their desktops into the trash just because they bought a pad for the kids or a smart phone. The smart phone market is mature. Possibilities for growth aren't great. But the desktop OS market has just opened up and is ripe for a take over by some opportunistic, entrepreneurial person or group.

    Here's a good read about the MS 8 fail. It may help the Unity 'camp' to understand the other side. But I assume they care.

    "Usability Expert: Windows 8 on PCs is Confusing, a Cognitive Burden"

    http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-8-1-enterprise-preview?

    You'll have to scroll down a little for this easy to spot blue link to the article- called this sudden loss of context



    Last edited by VietCanada; August 1st, 2013 at 05:20 AM.

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