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Thread: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

  1. #41
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Whether the various flavors choose to run xmir or not, doesn't matter to me.
    Yes i think the OP is more concerned in this. Or at least i was under such impression. And this is why we are here talking about this (who will chose what in the future).

  2. #42
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoGratis View Post
    Yes i think the OP is more concerned in this. Or at least i was under such impression. And this is why we are here talking about this (who will chose what in the future).
    What we know is that mir is the direction Ubuntu is taking.
    What the others do should be asked of the others.
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  3. #43
    monkeybrain2012 is offline Grande Half-n-Half Cinnamon Ubuntu
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadmanRB View Post
    For me my biggest concern for Mir is who it will effect those who use proprietary cards for gaming, especially steam.
    So when Mir is forced on us in 14.04 will it break gaming compatibility and such.
    If Canonical is willing to ditch x in 14.04 trhey must hav e some plan in store.
    Either thast or people will be using Xubuntu for gaming.
    Actually it doesn't look too good performance wise even for the free drivers

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...enchmark&num=1

    But then it is still early, hope that will get fixed by the time of 13.10's freeze.

  4. #44
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoGratis View Post
    If Mir in the future proofs as viable solution i don't see why upstreams couldn't change their mind but for that part Canonical will need to prove it can pool it off. Currently Mir is tightly related/intended for/to use with Unity but this might change in the future.
    It's not that they couldn't change their minds, but I doubt they will ever have the motivation to do so. Mir comes off as a bit of an insult to people who have been working on Wayland ports of their Ubuntu derivatives. It's only for use in Ubuntu and only for use with Unity. Canonical is not interested in adapting Mir to other DEs either. Neither side is giving the other any chance, but Canonical's point of view strikes me as particularly arrogant.

    Allow me to summarize and paraphrase the debate, as you may read in some of the articles linked from this thread:

    Canonical: "Yeah, we were going to go with Wayland, but we had a better, or somewhat better, or actually neither better nor worse just different, idea--although we don't really have the details down just yet--so we're going ahead and doing it our way. If you'd like to forget about how much time you've invested in Wayland and join us you may, but we can't and won't do anything to help you, maybe not ever."

    Derivative devs
    : "Eh? What? Why? So, what are we supposed to do now? Upstream devs, what do we do about Mir?"

    Upstream DE devs
    : "What's MIr? Oh, Canonical's pushing a new display server in Ubuntu... with a licensing agreement... interesting... We develop for twenty different distributions that are going with Wayland, so we're going to stick with that."

    Derivative devs
    : "Well, Wayland it is then. um.... but what do we do about Mir in the future?"

    Upstream DE devs
    : "..."

    Canonical
    : "Anything will run on XMir!"

    Derivative devs
    : "But we're never going to port to Mir, so why bother with XMir?"

    Canonical
    : "It'll be fine, don't worry so much."

    Derivative devs
    : "..."


    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Quite true. Although I think rebasing on Debian wouldn't be all that simple. They would need the resources to massage Testing or Unstable to maintain the currency that Ubuntu users expect.
    You've kind of misinterpreted me here. I am not suggesting that they should re-base on Debian, I was pointing out the unfortunate reality that they may be forced to re-base on Debian.
    I suspect people will leave or stay with Ubuntu and Unity depending on what's on offer, not depending on the display driver.
    What Ubuntu will be offering in the future (13.10) is an incomplete, broken display server with no support for proprietary binary drivers.
    How can it be "domination" when X remains *the* major player and everyone else seems to be on the Wayland bandwagon? The assertion that Canonical is going its own way doesn't synch with the assertion that it's going for "domination".
    Domination of their own userbase. Forcing users to choose standard Ubuntu or go away.
    One reason for not relying on contributions from people who do not work for you is if you have contract commitments to deliver products according to a schedule. Presumably, Canonical will need to do that to play in the device market. They can't depend on needed contributions coming from outsiders who do not -- can not -- work to a schedule.
    This is the most valid argument I have seen toward the "in-house development uber alles" policy Canonical relies on more and more. This makes sense. I wish this mess didn't have to spill over on to my home desktop.*
    I see FOSS as essentially a community by and for developers. Users reap benefits, but I have a very difficult time considering so many disparate users as any kind of a coherent community. We see constant chatter about what the community wants or deserves, etc., etc. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I have no idea how we are supposed to determine what that "community" wants. There's no accurate way to encompass who is in the "community", much less if it's come to a consensus about something. (I've been an active Linux user since the 1990's and no one has ever presented me with an organized, formal way of expressing my wishes about it.) What happens is that someone reads the tea leaves and announces that consensus.
    I am actually very happy to be discussing this particular topic. It needs it's own thread; or maybe it's own subform: "FOSS Community" because you're right in most ways, but I think we also need to recognize that as linux has become more user-friendly and more viable as a home-pc OS there are a great many non-developers who are permanent members of the community now. I think it's just as important to recognize their needs as the needs of the people who make the software if FOSS is to really give the big corporate players a run for their money, but judging those needs is hard. FOSS is obviously not a democracy, but it isn't complete anarchy either. The best way I can describe the governance across the entire FOSS spectrum is "meritocracy" wherein people and projects of significant value are awarded significant influence. Like all other political systems, it is vulnerable to manipulation and corruption, thus needs to be monitored and managed carefully.
    Quote Originally Posted by EgoGratis View Post
    Yes i think the OP is more concerned in this. Or at least i was under such impression. And this is why we are here talking about this (who will chose what in the future).
    My name is quequotion. OP is someone on 4chan. qq would do. My concern is not "who will choose what", but "what choices will be available?" and "will users and developers be able to make a choice at all?".

    *Of course, there's always the option to never upgrade.
    Last edited by quequotion; June 28th, 2013 at 10:26 PM. Reason: getting sleepy and cynical, edited for taste

  5. #45
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by quequotion View Post
    Mir comes off as a bit of an insult to people who have been working on Wayland ports of their Ubuntu derivatives.
    It would be nice if ego didn't interfere with professionalism. A debate about the technical merits of Mir versus Wayland is legitimate. Trashing one because, well, Not Invented Here, isn't.

    What Ubuntu will be offering in the future is an incomplete, broken display server with no support for proprietary binary drivers.
    Too early too tell.

    Forcing users to choose standard Ubuntu or go away.
    Of course they can, It's their product. Just because a zillion-and-one Ubuntu derivatives exists today does not mean Canonical has a reason to go out of its way to ensure they can continue under Mir if Canonical sees that as not being in its best interests. All those derivatives are *competition* for Unity.

    This is the most valid argument I have seen toward the "in-house development uber alles" policy Canonical relies on more and more. This makes sense.
    Fundamental tensions exist between the culture and ideology of FOSS as it has developed, and efforts to make money from Linux. No one has ever sustained a business selling Linux. Red Hat is quite successful selling support contracts for RHEL, but it got out of the shinkwrapped Linux retail market years ago. The relationship of Red Hat to Fedora is not the same as that of Canonical to Ubuntu. But, I think if Red Hat decided to go into the device business as Canonical has, Fedora would face similar conflicts.

    I think it's just as important to recognize their needs as the needs of the people who make the software if FOSS is to really give the big corporate players a run for their money...
    Now, that's something I no longer have an interest in. I never really did, I guess. The first OS I was exposed to was Unix. I began using Linux (Slackware, way back when) because it was, essentially, Unix. When I used DOS or Windows, I typically used Unix emulators that gave me a shell and the GNU tool set.

    If my choices were between a FOSS-ified Windows and a closed proprietary Microsoft Unix for $300, I'd buy the latter.

    ...governance across the entire FOSS spectrum is "meritocracy" wherein people and projects of significant value are awarded significant influence.
    I have problems with that. For one, it assumes universally shared values about what is or is not of "significant value". It gets back to the "who decides?" issue. Who decides what's of value? Who says they can make those decisions for everyone else?

    I much prefer an environment where developers are free to make whatever it is they want to make, then release it and see what happens, taking their lumps as necessary, over all this angst about community and culture and who's good and who's bad. If Canonical thinks Mir is better than Wayland, then the proof is in the pudding. I'll judge for myself when the pudding is done. Ditto for the Wayland supporters.

  6. #46
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    It would be nice if ego didn't interfere with professionalism. A debate about the technical merits of Mir versus Wayland is legitimate. Trashing one because, well, Not Invented Here, isn't.
    And, as duely noted elsewhere in this thread and in this forum, that is exactly what happened (see "A footnote about Canonical's Mir").

    I have problems with that. For one, it assumes universally shared values about what is or is not of "significant value". It gets back to the "who decides?" issue. Who decides what's of value? Who says they can make those decisions for everyone else?
    Valid concerns. The values may not be universally shared or even recognized, and the precise quantization of "significant" is somewhat impossible. Nonetheless, these decisions get made. Linus Torvalds is the benevolent dictator of the kernel because he started it I suppose, X11 has been in use for over a decade because it hasn't been trumped yet, people follow the fredesktop.org specifications because they exist, etc. etc.
    I much prefer an environment where developers are free to make whatever it is they want to make, then release it and see what happens, taking their lumps as necessary, over all this angst about community and culture and who's good and who's bad. If Canonical thinks Mir is better than Wayland, then the proof is in the pudding. I'll judge for myself when the pudding is done. Ditto for the Wayland supporters.
    If it worked out that cleanly I think it would be a better environment, and there wouldn't be nearly as much angst to go around. Unfortunately I think there will be far to many lumps taken by users and developers who don't deserve them in this situation.

  7. #47
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    It's not that they couldn't change their minds, but I doubt they will ever have the motivation to do so. Mir comes off as a bit of an insult to people who have been working on Wayland ports of their Ubuntu derivatives. It's only for use in Ubuntu and only for use with Unity. Canonical is not interested in adapting Mir to other DEs either. Neither side is giving the other any chance, but Canonical's point of view strikes me as particularly arrogant.
    They will/would have the motivation to do so if Canonical will/would give them that motivation. It's too early to say ATM what is the reach of Mir but if it would be used on 200 millions of devices in next few years and would be GPL licensed there would probably not be much reason not to use it... upstreams probably will/would change their minds. It's not true Canonical is not interested in other DEs adopting Mir currently other DEs are not interested in adopting Mir mainly because currently Mir is one purpose/distribution solution and that is about it and above all it's not finished yet to be used for this single purpose/distribution. About being arrogant i don't know about that they went their own way and that is about it for now.

    My name is quequotion. OP is someone on 4chan. qq would do.
    AFAIK OP is quite common term describing original poster.

  8. #48
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    And, as duely noted elsewhere in this thread and in this forum, that is exactly what happened (see "A footnote about Canonical's Mir").
    This is old and this was cleared up a while back.

    Valid concerns. The values may not be universally shared or even recognized, and the precise quantization of "significant" is somewhat impossible. Nonetheless, these decisions get made. Linus Torvalds is the benevolent dictator of the kernel because he started it I suppose, X11 has been in use for over a decade because it hasn't been trumped yet, people follow the fredesktop.org specifications because they exist, etc. etc.
    Yes and we are using Ubuntu for quite some years now and Mir is FOSS in the end!

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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadmanRB View Post
    Yes but 14.04 is supposed to kill of X fallback, as Unity will be tied into Mir.
    This means a lot of borked things for ubuntu and making 14.04 the worst LTS in history, even worse then 12.04.
    XMir will ship in 14.04. Window Managers/Desktops that don't support Mir natively will just use XMir and everything works.

  10. #50
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    XMir will ship in 14.04. Window Managers/Desktops that don't support Mir natively will just use XMir and everything works.
    That plus as i do imagine for example KDE running on Xorg/Wayland will be possible regardless of the fact if it is officially supported/endorsed? Will wait and see.

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