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Thread: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

  1. #21
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Quote Originally Posted by sanderj View Post
    From http://files.theecologist.org/resour...ootprints.html

    The machine itself
    200kg CO2e: a simple low-cost laptop

    Electricity consumption
    150g CO2e per hour: an old desktop machine

    So BEP at 200kg/(150g/hour) = 1333 hours. At 5 hours a day, that's a BEP at 266 days...
    Fantastic statistics, thanks for doing the calculations.

    One must also take human time into consideration. A newer, faster machine makes one more productive at their work and school tasks. Time is our most precious and limited resource on this earth.

  2. #22
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Just because someone gives you a free CD with DOS doesn't mean they're gonna install it.

    Thing is perception really. In my company probably 90% of the users could use Linux if the CEO of the company came forward and ordered everyone to use Linux and that's the end of it. Some would begrudgingly adapt to it.

    Then what next? What happens when the computers start to break down or when users do wrong things?

    There's a hidden cost factor here, called "productivity" and "operations" (IT) cost. Switching a whole company to Linux may prove catastrophic, half the company would be compiling their kernel all of the time. (joke).

  3. #23
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Quote Originally Posted by sanderj View Post
    I get the idea that *you* installed Linux and you did not hand over a Linux CD to your friend? If so, that's - alas - exactly my point: giving away Linux / OS CDs is not going to help much.
    Yes, I installed it for her when I installed her hard disk. Her only choice was a new machine; she is no more capable of installing xubuntu than she is of installing Windows - not at all in either case. We will see how much 'after sales support' is required. I'm guessing less than Windows due to less crapware and "oh let me help you with that"

  4. #24
    monkeybrain2012 is offline Grande Half-n-Half Cinnamon Ubuntu
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Quote Originally Posted by argvar View Post

    There's a hidden cost factor here, called "productivity" and "operations" (IT) cost. Switching a whole company to Linux may prove catastrophic, half the company would be compiling their kernel all of the time. (joke).
    Such as the time spent on removing preinstalled crapware when you get an OEM Windows machine, down time due to viral infections, performance hit for having to run viral scans and time to set those up etc. The CDs are given to home users I suppose, if a whole company needs to switch I am sure they would have planned it before with a more comprehensive strategy, But as a general point, there is always a cost factor whenever a company switches to a different infrastructure and that includes upgrade, that's why there are some big organizations still stuck with Win2000 and a whole room of floppies. Is this an argument that they should never upgrade? Paying a small transitional cost may work out better in the long run.
    Last edited by monkeybrain2012; June 27th, 2013 at 02:27 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Quote Originally Posted by sanderj View Post
    From http://files.theecologist.org/resour...ootprints.html

    The machine itself
    200kg CO2e: a simple low-cost laptop

    Electricity consumption
    150g CO2e per hour: an old desktop machine

    So BEP at 200kg/(150g/hour) = 1333 hours. At 5 hours a day, that's a BEP at 266 days...
    Some interesting statistics. Here is another source http://www.met.sjsu.edu/~clements/me...Footprints.ppt. There are some additional carbon costs to factor in with the laptop:
    1) The actual savings is 150g/hour less 12g/hour for a net of 138g/hour
    2) In a central european climate a portion of the carbon savings is not real because during the heating season the "waste heat" is not waste at all and will have to be replaced. Let us say 25% for a net of 103.5g/hour. So for five hours a day this means a BEP of 378 Days.
    3) The use of the computer. A lot of computers are used way less than 5 hours a day. This is especially true for residential use. For 1 hour a day the BEP becomes 1891 days or over 5 years.
    The next question is that carbon in not the only environmental cost or even greenhouse gas here. A very good example of a greenhouse gas that occurs only during manufacture of electronics is NF3 17000 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1023120230.htm Add to this emissions and toxins released during the "recycling" process.
    4) The replacement laptop / tablet may turn out to be an even far worse environmental nightmare particularly if it is heavily infected with DRM. A good example of this is a Windows 8 RT computer. On the "surface" it may sound like a green choice because of the energy efficient ARM processor. The problem here is that when Windows 8 RT reaches end of life, it will not be possible to replace the Operating System with GNU/Linux because of the locked bootloader. Furthermore in many jurisdictions it is illegal to break the DRM in the bootloader because of anti-circumvention laws. There is a huge environmental cost to locked bootloaders and DRM that is not well recognized.

    The bottom line is that from an environmental point of view it almost always makes more sense to reuse rather then recycle and even if a case could be made because of heavy use to replace the old desktop it would still makes sense to give the old desktop to a user that has a lighter daily use rather than add to the ever growing volume of ewaste. This means in many cases replacing Windows with GNU/Linux.
    Last edited by Dr. C; June 27th, 2013 at 04:52 AM.

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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Interesting tread in general, and also to compare the impact on the environment!

    CO2 is one point, but there is also another one, about digging up and spreading more or less poisonous substances from mines, using them in the industry and spreading them to the consumers, and finally dumping them to leak slower or faster depending on the method used. If that spreading of poisons can be reduced by using the hardware for a longer time, it decreases the footprint.

    -o-

    But there is also a limit, where old hardware is not efficient, because it cannot do the job anymore. mörgæs wrote a good summary in the first post of this thread:

    Old hardware


    -o-

    One obstacle for new users is the method to install our Ubuntu flavours. We have three installers.

    - the modern graphical one in the desktop iso files, which starts to have problems below 768 MB RAM. The new Saucy version will use zRAM, which seems reduce the required RAM to about half, a great step forward to use it with old computers.

    - the older debian installer in the alternate iso files, which works at lower RAM levels and when there are problems with the graphics drivers.

    - the ubuntu mini iso file, which has the greatest flexibility but also the greatest complexity and difficulty. The 12.04 and 12.10 (?) versions work only from CD/DVD, but from 13.04 it can be used from dd-cloned USB pendrives.

    I think these are too complicated to hand over to ordinary Windows XP users and expect that they will succeed on their own. In other words, I agree with several of the previous posts.

    But it is a very good opportunity to invite Windows XP users at the end of life of XP in April 2014.

    I had hands on experience when testing the RAM necessary to install Lubuntu with zRAM. The installer was really sensitive to any choices beyond the very simplest one (use the whole drive and install to it), wait between the mouse clicks or use only tabs and enter keys and wait for swapping to take place to avoid choking the system.

    So how to do it? Writing wiki pages and helping at the Ubuntu Forums will only help a few people. I started to make a One Button Installer, that is much simpler to use, because it can only do one thing: select drive and install to it (or abstain from doing it). So there is not much to confuse the user. It is not polished, and should not be too polished, because it causes complication and increased usage of RAM.

    It is ready to use now, and I think it is really much simpler to use. Furthermore it can install into lower RAM without issues, far below what is really useful according to mörgæs's recommendations. And it is faster.


    The script does the following main tasks.

    1. Helps selecting the correct drive with some logic and simple command line tools.

    2. Unmounts and swaps off.

    3. Wipes the first megabyte with dd.

    4. Creates two partitions with fdisk (fully automatic).

    5. Makes a file system and swap system.

    6. Expands a tarball of a freshly installed Lubuntu Saucy alpha including updates and third party multimedia (2.1 Gibibytes uncompressed).

    7. Installs the grub bootloader.

    The One Button Installer is run from a dedicated portable installed text only system made from the Ubuntu mini iso file. It is uploaded and made available in a way similar to the grub-n-iso and installed system but in this case for general usage rather than the special purpose of those systems (fake-PAE).

    So what are Windows users willing and able to do? Maybe some of them will try Lubuntu or some other light-weight Ubuntu flavour if the word is spread, that it is 'so easy to install Lubuntu'. I see this situation: After they dared try the one button installer on the old PC, they will get more interested and use the flexible installer to get a dual boot system on the new PC.
    Last edited by sudodus; September 14th, 2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: One Button Installer ready to use now

  7. #27
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    This is really interesting since RAM is one of the more common limitations of old computers. How much RAM are we talking about here?

  8. #28
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    "XP Machine" can mean anything from a 12-year-old computer to something only 5 or 6 years old. I have a little celeron 800 with 256MB of RAM that, according to the original specs stickered inside the case, was shipped with XP home RTM; I also know my employer was buying XP on Pentium dual-core machines with 2GB of RAM. Vista's notoriety kept a lot of people buying (or downgrading) to XP up to the release of Windows 7. There is no shortage of Linux distros that will run passably on the lower end of that range and gloriously on the upper end. Lubuntu isn't a bad choice there.

    As for this Munich thing, it's neat but seems a little silly. We're talking about 2000 CDs in a city of millions of people. How are these going to be distributed? In a bin at the front counter? Mailed to select businesses? Handed out in the streets? My guess is that one of the resident tuxophiles got ahold of some unspent Euros at the end of the budget cycle and decided to indulge in a little Linux advocacy. Call me cynical, but the green/e-waste thing seems like spin to me.

  9. #29
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Quote Originally Posted by argvar View Post
    Just because someone gives you a free CD with DOS doesn't mean they're gonna install it.

    Thing is perception really. In my company probably 90% of the users could use Linux if the CEO of the company came forward and ordered everyone to use Linux and that's the end of it. Some would begrudgingly adapt to it.
    You should ask google, because that's what they did.
    You need close to personal approval from google's board of directors(practically) to use Windows.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Munich to distribute Linux CDs to get people to ditch Windows XP

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    As for this Munich thing, it's neat but seems a little silly. We're talking about 2000 CDs in a city of millions of people. How are these going to be distributed? In a bin at the front counter? Mailed to select businesses? Handed out in the streets? My guess is that one of the resident tuxophiles got ahold of some unspent Euros at the end of the budget cycle and decided to indulge in a little Linux advocacy. Call me cynical, but the green/e-waste thing seems like spin to me.
    you are probably right.


    anyway i am having an old mashcine. always planned to stuck a phenom or dual core inside. but then i ran out of time, money.... life took over. so now i am stuck with single core WinXP and 2 GB ram. before i thought about maxing the ram to 16GB or at least getting it up to 8GB and adding win7 on it along with SSD., but now it seems it is not worth it. it just became too expencive. not to mentione they do not sell those CPU anymore (except used ones).

    i don't expect my computer to implode after april next year, so i will likely continue to use XP. there are so many older games i haven't played yet... anyway maybe it will get a dual boot with Linux and eventually turned into server. we'll see....
    Easy to understand Ubuntu manual with lots of pics: http://ubuntu-manual.org/
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