View Poll Results: Do you think Community should have been removed?

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  • Yes

    2 2.33%
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    84 97.67%
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Thread: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

  1. #81
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post

    First off, Mark made Ubuntu a community project when he first started it. We're not "self-described and self-selected". But this tension you're talking about is exactly why they should have kept the business side of it on the Canonical web site, and the community side on the Ubuntu web site. Canonical is business, Ubuntu is community.
    Perhaps Shuttleworth thought, at that time, that Canonical and an Ubuntu community could function harmoniously and in tandem around Ubuntu-the-product. TO me, that seems a fundamental mistake. Better to have two distributions: One that's a community effort, and another that's controlled by Canonical but based on the software produced in the community effort.

    That's obviously the Red Hat/Fedora model. It may be the only viable way to meet the conflicting needs of each side.

    (For myself, it's the software that's important, not community or the company behind it.)

  2. #82
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    What happens when Canonical-the-business does something the Ubuntu community does not support? What happens when Canonical decisions about resource allocation and personnel impact that community in a negative way?
    This happens, and we deal with it.

    What happens down the road, for example, if Canonical finds itself making money on phones and tablets, but losing money on the desktop, and decides to abandon Ubuntu for that platform? That would be a sensible business decision. But, it would surely not be in the interests of the Ubuntu community.
    I don't like to deal with hypotheticals, but there are plenty of community maintained derivatives that do just fine.

    Canonical and the Ubuntu community are two different and distinct communities. They share interests and objectives, but that overlap is not -- cannot be -- perfect. In essence, the community's focus is on the vitality of Ubuntu software as an end in itself, while Canonical's interest is -- must be -- on Ubuntu as a means to an end. Points of conflict will arise.
    As a member of both I disagree. My focus is on Ubuntu itself, and Canonical enables me to do that.

    The more I think about it, the more I think Red Hat's decision some years ago to, in effect, spin off Fedora as its community effort was a better idea. Fedora and RHEL are distinct and different products. The former is developed and shaped by the Fedora community, the latter by Red Hat's business requirements. The potential for conflict still exists, but it is greatly reduced.
    This is basically the end of Ubuntu. The entire point of Ubuntu is that the software is available for everyone for free, not to artificially split it between those who afford it and those who cannot.

  3. #83
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by |{urse View Post
    That's not a cherrypicked definition, it's the etymology of the word. And you started the semantical argument about users of the free product not being consumers. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong.
    It's not semantics.

    Selling is not the same as giving it away.

    A rose is a rose is a rose...

  4. #84
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    So I guess the thousands of posts and man hours that people volunteer here to give Ubuntu users free support don't count as work. We're just a bunch of people sitting around whining on a forum, and that's all this is about. I suggest you take a look around these forums other than just the threads like this where people are disgruntled with your boss.
    Of course it "counts", I've done thousands of hours of support myself. The point is that a community portal should be developed with input and support from the community, and that's not happening.

  5. #85
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post

    The entire point of Ubuntu is that the software is available for everyone for free, not to artificially split it between those who afford it and those who cannot.
    You can't make money from selling your product if ensuring the "software is available for everyone for free" is the objective. That's the tension I see: Conflicting purposes. It exists everywhere in FOSS. I don't see how to resolve it while keeping the focus on a single product. (Wish I thought differently, but I don't.)

    Red Hat sells support subscriptions. RHEL code is on their servers free and open for the taking. Red Hat doesn't make gratis ISO's available. CentOS and Scientific remove Red Hat trademarks from RHEL code, recompile and release it per usual for a Linux distribution.

    Red Hat, years ago, sold what became RHEL in shrinkwrapped retail boxes. They couldn't make a go if it, so they got out of the retail business, forked off Fedora as a community project, and moved to their current support subscription model. If Canonical followed the same approach with Ubuntu, the community distribution would remain a gratis product. The product Canonical licensed to its support subscribers would be as different from Ubuntu as it wanted. At release, RHEL is much like Fedora, but it's essentially only bug fixes after that while Fedora moves on.

  6. #86
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    As a dog that returns to its own vomit... here I am. Well, not to argue the matter itself.

    It is only because I care about everyone's education that I post again.

    Some believe that sophistry helps their argument and damages that of others. It is does neither. Sophistry charms only those who do not recognize it.

    What some are doing is presenting "red herrings". I trust you all understand what that term means, having studied well your lessons in Logic.

    For the benefit of all, I suggest you all define the word "idiom" and then write for yourselves a short essay on the topic of the following idiomatic expressions: "I can take my business elsewhere" and "I can take my custom elsewhere." This, I think, will help you all understand how to pitch some of the herring back in the sea so you won't slip on them.

    Take care to craft your personal your answers well. They will serve only you, since I will never see them. Having one of my degrees (summa cum laude) in Modern Languages and Literatures (with a minor in Linguistics) and speaking three languages, I am fairly confident that I need not await your tuition to make this clear to me.

    A thought to inform your studies: Except for the inevitable physical doom my body faces as a natural process of aging, I exchange no currency for the oxygen I consume.
    Last edited by QIII; May 15th, 2013 at 03:55 PM.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by QIII View Post
    "I can take my business elsewhere" and "I can take my custom elsewhere."
    Call it business, call it custom, call it a Big Blue Pony. Give it whatever label you wish. No matter. You cannot buy Ubuntu. That means taking your business or your custom or your Big Blue Pony elsewhere has zero impact on Canonical revenues. You aren't depriving Canonical of anything because no transaction occurred in the first place.

  8. #88
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    They could (eventually) be deprived of the status they enjoy as one of the biggest linux communities. In all honesty the only reason I use Ubuntu over, say, Debian is all the ppas we have here, and the only reason we have those is because of the huge user base. The community is a big part of that; the community is paramount.

  9. #89
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    They couldn't make a go if it, so they got out of the retail business, forked off Fedora as a community project, and moved to their current support subscription model. If Canonical followed the same approach with Ubuntu, the community distribution would remain a gratis product.
    There is no "community" and "enterprise" version of Ubuntu and there never will be, it's part of the Ubuntu Promise that Ubuntu will remain free of cost.

    The product Canonical licensed to its support subscribers would be as different from Ubuntu as it wanted.
    Why? Splitting it so only people who get paid support get improvements in the "enterprise" product isn't what Ubuntu is about, the point is that whether you pay or not you get the best OS we can make, even if you can't afford it.

  10. #90
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Again, unless you pay for it, you are not a consumer.
    What did you pay google for that made it one of the highest salary paying companies?
    If selling and generating *direct* revenue is all you know about business, then better stop talking about business.

    Money is where masses are, and what exactly do you think there is about Ubuntu that is gathering masses for it (or canonical..)?
    Except for its huge *user* base, or active support system, or volunteer developers/testers what do you think Ubuntu has which others don't have and that is going to attract hardware vendors that are its only hope to create some real business?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    People who *use* Ubuntu don't -- can't -- buy it.
    Don't use the word "can't" for people you don't know about. For that matter you don't even seem to know that we have an "Apple Support" section here on the forums and it is as active as other support areas, and there are a number of testers and regular contributors there. What does that tell you about the capability of the *users* ? I guess nothing, because you are not willing to see.

    There must be a reason why we have two ears and two eyes while only one mouth and toungue. But you seem to be the one who enjoys talking too much (even if it is utter nonsense), with your eyes and ears closed. Be careful, what you are doing here, is at the borderline of trolling!

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    (For myself, it's the software that's important, not community or the company behind it.)
    And what makes 'the' software better than any of the others out there when it is using the same kernel and same apps that are available for all others?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    A rose is a rose is a rose...
    ...(..x like 20, 50 more times?)
    Now, what does this prove about you?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    That means taking your business or your custom or your Big Blue Pony elsewhere has zero impact on Canonical revenues. You aren't depriving Canonical of anything because no transaction occurred in the first place.
    It takes away from canonical everything that is its very base to attract hardware vendors. No significant userbase = no interest from hardware vendors = no business for Canonical.

    "You don't matter because you don't buy Ubuntu" is all you have been repeating over and over again. That's the most childish argument in this thread so far. People have already answered you many times the same thing in different ways, but you can't understand because you are not willing to. I doubt if they even consider your posts worth wasting their time on. Guess I had nothing better to do to than killing time somehow, that's why I bothered to write this.

    I doubt if I am going to answer you again because I kinda know what all you may have to pour here again.
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