Debian and ubuntu, again

[BWF89]

@Bruce89: What the first paragraph of the main page makes it sound like Ubuntu is developed by a large community of people who use Ubuntu. Ubuntu is mainly developed by people who use Debian and they just take what they do and make it easier to use.

On the 2nd paragraph they talk about what is called the "Ubuntu Philosophy". Acting like they created the whole idea that software should be freely avalible. Hey, we already have a philosophy that's been around since 1993 and it was created by Debian. We just took it and changed it around a little so that including proprietary drivers to make it work better out of the box doens't go against our philosophy. If you want to go even farther the philosophy was created by RMS in 1985 when he wrote the GNU Manifesto and started work on the GNU Project.

It's not until the about page that they mention we have any ties to anyone else at all. The first page would lead you to believe that Ubuntu is entirely self suficcient. And even when it does say he have ties to other operating systems it just says Ubuntu is a free, open source operating system that starts with the breadth of Debian. I don't even know what the word bredth means. I had to go to dictionary.com to find out. Heres what bredth means

-The measure or dimension from side to side; width.
-A piece usually produced in a standard width: a breadth of canvas.
-Wide range or scope: breadth of knowledge.
-Tolerance; broadmindedness: a jurist of great breadth and wisdom.
-An effect of unified, encompassing vision in an artistic composition.

If I'm a Linux newbie I still don't know what exactly Ubuntu's relation to Debian is. I have to go to the seperate page on the site titled "Debian and Ubuntu" to understand exactly what our relationship is. They could alteast say that Ubuntu is stronly infludnced on Debian and link those words to the Ubuntu and Deian page.

[bruce89]

@Bruce89: What the first paragraph of the main page makes it sound like Ubuntu is developed by a large community of people who use Ubuntu. Ubuntu is mainly developed by people who use Debian and they just take what they do and make it easier to use.

On the 2nd paragraph they talk about what is called the "Ubuntu Philosophy". Acting like they created the whole idea that software should be freely avalible. Hey, we already have a philosophy that's been around since 1993 and it was created by Debian. We just took it and changed it around a little so that including proprietary drivers to make it work better out of the box doens't go against our philosophy. If you want to go even farther the philosophy was created by RMS when he wrote the GNU Manifesto and started work on the GNU Project.

It's not until the about page that they mention we have any ties to anyone else at all. The first page would lead you to believe that Ubuntu is entirely self suficcient. And even when it does say he have ties to other operating systems it just says Ubuntu is a free, open source operating system that starts with the breadth of Debian. I don't even know what the word bredth means. I had to go to dictionary.com to find out. Heres what bredth means

-The measure or dimension from side to side; width.
-A piece usually produced in a standard width: a breadth of canvas.
-Wide range or scope: breadth of knowledge.
-Tolerance; broadmindedness: a jurist of great breadth and wisdom.
-An effect of unified, encompassing vision in an artistic composition.

I was only proving that Ubuntu says it's Linux.

[sharkboy]

I think this is a very interesting read, together with its links:

http://blog.madduck.net/debian/2006....ntu-and-debian

The authour is Martin Krafft, who wrote the excellent book "The Debian System -- concepts and techniques".

[diepruis]

Good post. Messy business. I hate this sort of infighting between opensource projects and the like. I hope it is resolved soon.

[kabus]

Again, indeed.

[tsb]

I hate the "giving back" BS. Have some common sense. The Ubuntu source code is open. If these "programmers" can develop Debian then they are surely deft enough to use the source code to find improvements. Besides, the entire idea of open source means that one can do whatever one pleases with the code as long as the source is made available. It seems the ideals on which Debian was founded have been forgotten!

[Jucato]

I hate the "giving back" BS. Have some common sense. The Ubuntu source code is open. If these "programmers" can develop Debian then they are surely deft enough to use the source code to find improvements. Besides, the entire idea of open source means that one can do whatever one pleases with the code as long as the source is made available. It seems the ideals on which Debian was founded have been forgotten!

I'm not sure about this, but I've always thought that part of using the GPL means that any modifications to the program must be contributed back to the source of the code (from whom/where you took the program). I think this is one of the "hot" issues about the upcoming GPL v3. But like I said, I'm not absolutely sure.

Whether or not it's stated in the GPL, it's really only fair if you were to "contribute" changes, specially bug fixes and patches, back to the source of the program. I think it's also fair to give those changes back in a way/manner that would make it easy for the "upstream" (if that's the proper term) to incorporate these changes.

Open source doesn't just mean having the source code made available, although that is a very essential piece of the picture. It's the rights/freedom that comes with having this source code made available that is more important. For example, there are some companies that would allow you to see their source code, but under a non-disclosure agreement, or some other restriction. So making the source code available is not the only requisite for a program to be considered Free/Open Source

Having said that, I really don't know whether the Debian devs' statements are true or whether Ubuntu devs' statements are true. What irks me about these "discussions" is that there is a "discussion". Most of the time, these people just rant about this or that problem, rather than actually trying to help solve the problem. I know it's their right to voice their opinions to the public, but it's also their responsibility to work towards solving the problem, since they're the only ones capable of doing that. I mean, it's one thing to just say that "they are not doing this, or they are being unfair", and quite another thing to say "they are not doing this, so let's come together and agree on how to do/solve this." Nowadays, I see more publicity on the first statement rather than the second one.

It's good to see statements/documents like these minutes from the Ubuntu-Debian discussions at DebConf (http://lists.debian.org/debian-proje...msg00278.html). Unfortunately, these statements are not that well-known or circulated compared to blogs.

[asimon]

I hate the "giving back" BS. Have some common sense. The Ubuntu source code is open. If these "programmers" can develop Debian then they are surely deft enough to use the source code to find improvements. Besides, the entire idea of open source means that one can do whatever one pleases with the code as long as the source is made available. It seems the ideals on which Debian was founded have been forgotten!

The whole thing isn't about the availability of source code, the legality of making derivates of free software or the ideals on which Debian are founded on. It's about lessening the workload of both distribution's developers and playing nice together.

[bruce89]

I hate the "giving back" BS. Have some common sense. The Ubuntu source code is open. If these "programmers" can develop Debian then they are surely deft enough to use the source code to find improvements. Besides, the entire idea of open source means that one can do whatever one pleases with the code as long as the source is made available. It seems the ideals on which Debian was founded have been forgotten!

The problem is that the patches that Ubuntu produce are monolithic, so it is difficult for Debian to get the useful ones. (As some just remove Debian branding etc.)

[kabus]

Ubuntu fanboy

Well at least you admit it...