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Thread: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

  1. #81
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    Ya'll confuse revenue with relevance. When anybody without tape on their glasses knows who RedHat is, when we see a Redhat or Suse Tablet or smart phone, then I might start thinking you're even remotely correct.
    'cause relevance makes the world go 'round. And pays developers to work on stuff (like display servers). Or that could be revenue, not sure since I'm confused.

    More to the point: it doesn't matter at all how many users a distro has when it comes to developing software. What matters is how well it inspires the developer community to follow its lead, and how much money it has to hire developers when they don't. From what I read, Canonical is doing a poor job of the former, and they're on at best equal footing with Suse and RedHat when it comes to the latter. This isn't a clincher that "Mir will fail", but your remark that the rest of the Linux universe is "irrelevant" is a little short-sighted.
    Last edited by lykwydchykyn; March 28th, 2013 at 03:33 PM.

  2. #82
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    'cause relevance makes the world go 'round. And pays developers to work on stuff (like display servers). Or that could be revenue, not sure since I'm confused.

    More to the point: it doesn't matter at all how many users a distro has when it comes to developing software. What matters is how well it inspires the developer community to follow its lead, and how much money it has to hire developers when they don't. From what I read, Canonical is doing a poor job of the former, and they're on at best equal footing with Suse and RedHat when it comes to the latter. This isn't a clincher that "Mir will fail", but your remark that the rest of the Linux universe is "irrelevant" is a little short-sighted.
    +1 to your post - I have already wrote that you have to attract the developers and they have to trust you in your decisision making. That trust is something which Canonical to not have at the moment and you earn this over years and if you look at their past decisions which way application developers should go (quickly,...) and now QML/QT someone could get the impression that this is not professional at all and that they do not work together only take parts, polish the surface and write what great they have achieved - for me thats only a lot of marketing talk. And to write that RH/SuSE is irrelevant shows me that some users only care for their Ubuntu universe. However if you work with and for big companies you will see that they are using mainly RH/SuSE/Debian due to various certifications and the same for developers (CentOS in case you want to test stuff but do not need a certified distribution for testing or development work ) and they are very active in major upstream projects (kernel, compiler, window system and toolkits,..). That should not mean that I think it is a bad company (it's a young and maybe have to learn) but they should really work more with upstream, work on a better comunication and should be active also in key parts of the community and not only polish the surface.

  3. #83
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    The funny thing is that when Ubuntu was concentrated in polishing and Marketing they did a fantastic job, who can deny that? If you wanted to hand a Linux CD to friend who knew nothing about Linux, there was nothing better than Ubuntu, it almost always worked and even the CD itself gave an excellent impression.

    But the recent publicity stunts have left me a sweet-sour taste, first it was really exciting learning about the phone plan, but discovering that there wasn't almost anything palpable behind the videos was disappointing (CyannogenMod and placeholder images... really?), and then learning that the plan included departing from the Ubuntu I knew and liked and more importantly from the common effort around Linux was a really cold shower.

    It can be argued that everyone asked Canonical to code more and they are finally doing it.

    I hope than all this plan doesn't end in a complete failure, because Ubuntu has done a lot for Linux users in it's own way.

  4. #84
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tartalo View Post
    The funny thing is that when Ubuntu was concentrated in polishing and Marketing they did a fantastic job, who can deny that? If you wanted to hand a Linux CD to friend who knew nothing about Linux, there was nothing better than Ubuntu, it almost always worked and even the CD itself gave an excellent impression.

    But the recent publicity stunts have left me a sweet-sour taste, first it was really exciting learning about the phone plan, but discovering that there wasn't almost anything palpable behind the videos was disappointing (CyannogenMod and placeholder images... really?), and then learning that the plan included departing from the Ubuntu I knew and liked and more importantly from the common effort around Linux was a really cold shower.

    It can be argued that everyone asked Canonical to code more and they are finally doing it.

    I hope than all this plan doesn't end in a complete failure, because Ubuntu has done a lot for Linux users in it's own way.
    That's correct and nobody denies it but you have take care that people do not think over time you are only a marketing driven company after they realize that below the shown marketing stuff there is no real engineering (only taken parts from various upstream projects) but the other way round do not work too - engineers are not good at marketing their work and here I think have Canonical an advantage over the competitors which are at their engineering work superb but miss the flair to sell the product to the users. In the end we will only advance if we bring OSS in general to the minds of people instead to show a community which fight against each other. The key is transparent communication and keep down our egos together and work together otherwise we fail as community.

  5. #85
    neu5eeCh is offline Grande Half-n-Half Cinnamon Ubuntu
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    More to the point: it doesn't matter at all how many users a distro has when it comes to developing software. What matters is how well it inspires the developer community to follow its lead...
    Yes. And? How many third party developers do you see rushing to develop apps for Suse, or PCLos, or Fedora, or Slack, or Arch? I'm just not seeing any evidence to support your contention. Show me the evidence and that will convince me. How are Suse, Arch or RedHat relevant to a Steam (for example)?
    Last edited by neu5eeCh; March 29th, 2013 at 12:46 AM.

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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    Yes. And? How many third party developers do you see rushing to develop apps for Suse, or PCLos, or Fedora, or Slack, or Arch? I'm just not seeing any evidence to support your contention. Show me the evidence and that will convince me. How are Suse, Arch or RedHat relevant to a Steam (for example)?
    What third-party developer is producing software specifically for Ubuntu? Steam is producing software for Linux and happens to promote Ubuntu because it is considered to be the best/most popular distro for new Linux users.

  7. #87
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post
    That's correct and nobody denies it but you have take care that people do not think over time you are only a marketing driven company after they realize that below the shown marketing stuff there is no real engineering (only taken parts from various upstream projects) but the other way round do not work too - engineers are not good at marketing their work and here I think have Canonical an advantage over the competitors which are at their engineering work superb but miss the flair to sell the product to the users. In the end we will only advance if we bring OSS in general to the minds of people instead to show a community which fight against each other. The key is transparent communication and keep down our egos together and work together otherwise we fail as community.
    Nice paragraph.

    Is this possible? An ideal possibly. "Keep down our egos together". Well we are fragmented, with fractured egos, it's the nature of the beast of OSS/FLOSS/FOSS/Linux/GnuLinux/this license/that license/these special interest groups/those special interest groups/. It is what makes "linux". It's what empoweres "linux". If our volunteer devs, testers, bug triagers all had to work on the same project goals and road maps, "linux" would fail as it is today. We all do this to be different for as many reasons as there are people using "linux", for reasons not available in closed source propriety operating systems. Differsity is the nature and strength of our community.

    Discussions like these are important for multiple levels of understanding. I am not dismissing it, but embrace the information the discussion brings.


    The only thing constant about change is that it is constant. Should we fear this? Not if we expect that change is inevitable. Then it is rational and exiciting.

    Where the heck is the spell-check?

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    One Psychiatrist's Definition of Insanity: Knowing what one should do and doing differently.

  8. #88
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    In my opinion, going rogue with a replacement for X is about as ridiculous as switching to the HURD kernel.
    It doesn't seem fair to compare a venerable, mature, nearly-functional project like HURD with an upstart like Mir :V.

  9. #89
    neu5eeCh is offline Grande Half-n-Half Cinnamon Ubuntu
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    ...happens to promote Ubuntu because it is considered to be the best/most popular distro for new Linux users.
    Bingo.

    And not just for new Linux users. Now what's going to happen if Ubuntu switches to MIR? That's the question I was initially asking.

  10. #90
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    Bingo.

    And not just for new Linux users. Now what's going to happen if Ubuntu switches to MIR? That's the question I was initially asking.
    Ok, well that's not what you said. You implied that Steam is producing apps specifically for Ubuntu, which is not the case.

    As for your question, I think it illustrates why people are upset about what Canonical is doing. They are introducing fragmentation at a very fundamental level, to the detriment of the community at large. At the same time, if Ubuntu becomes the only distro to use Mir, which I think is likely if it ends up actually succeeding, I don't see third-party developers rushing to write software for it. They wouldn't want their software tied to a single, fallible distribution.

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