Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

[hainen]

Why "and..?"? Does it not concern you that the upstream developers would lie or mislead the community with respects to development? Not at all? Not even with a public apology / admission of guilt? I do not understand your position clearly I don't think. Mir / Wayland / foobarbaz doesn't matter. Not the point. At least that's not how I took the comment that was responded to.

On to the original topic: Reading the motivation behind Mir reasons on the wiki Mir/Spec it seems like Mir would be something that would help out more for mobile platforms to me. If that's it then it makes enough sense I guess. I can't imagine it making any huge difference for my use case either way though since I don't run Ubuntu or keep up with the newest commercial/closed applications and games and steam and stuff. My opinion is that a more collaborated effort would have a more beneficial "effect on Linux "Ecosystem"". As far as I can tell Mir source code is up on launchpad either way. If they do something truly great I don't see why wayland couldn't use some of the codebase if they wanted to or take a look at it at least. So, in that respect it may not be so bad for the ecosystem. But, I still think it's more bad than good at this point (I admit I still know little about the mir / wayland thing from a technical standpoint (no shortage of opinionated articles to read on the internet though I'm sure)). Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Wayland has MIT licence and canonical use a gpl license. Canonical can reuse wayland stuff (as we have seen) but Wayland can not use MIR code.

[hainen]

I have a feeling it unlikely stuff like http://www.collabora.com/videos/rpi-...demo-720p.webm occurs to MIR

[Perfect Storm]

Why "and..?"? Does it not concern you that the upstream developers would lie or mislead the community with respects to development? Not at all? Not even with a public apology / admission of guilt? I do not understand your position clearly I don't think. Mir / Wayland / foobarbaz doesn't matter. Not the point. At least that's not how I took the comment that was responded to.

On to the original topic: Reading the motivation behind Mir reasons on the wiki Mir/Spec it seems like Mir would be something that would help out more for mobile platforms to me. If that's it then it makes enough sense I guess. I can't imagine it making any huge difference for my use case either way though since I don't run Ubuntu or keep up with the newest commercial/closed applications and games and steam and stuff. My opinion is that a more collaborated effort would have a more beneficial "effect on Linux "Ecosystem"". As far as I can tell Mir source code is up on launchpad either way. If they do something truly great I don't see why wayland couldn't use some of the codebase if they wanted to or take a look at it at least. So, in that respect it may not be so bad for the ecosystem. But, I still think it's more bad than good at this point (I admit I still know little about the mir / wayland thing from a technical standpoint (no shortage of opinionated articles to read on the internet though I'm sure)). Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Then people needs to go out more, if they get worked up by this. There are much worse crime in the world than this. It isn't the first time misleading/misinformation have apperared in the open source community or in IT generally. There are people behind these project afterall, and where people is mistakes etc. will happen. I don't underestand the vendetta in such cases, live and let live...

But I suspect because it's Canonical made a mistake, it needs to burn down to the ground and the ashes scattered into the void.

[dodo3773]

I don't think people are to worried about things like lying & ethics, just the way people are.

Yeah, I suppose your right. No need to apologize then though. They should have just told the community to get bent instead since that's the truth.

Wayland has MIT licence and canonical use a gpl license. Canonical can reuse wayland stuff (as we have seen) but Wayland can not use MIR code.

Then I don't see how it could be good in any realistic way at all for the rest of the ecosystem. That should sum it all up there. But could you elaborate on this a little more?

Edit: Now that I think about it a little more I really don't think it's going to have a huge effect either way on the larger community.

Then people needs to go out more, if they get worked up by this. There are much worse crime in the world than this. It isn't the first time misleading/misinformation have apperared in the open source community or in IT generally. There are people behind these project afterall, and where people is mistakes etc. will happen. I don't underestand the vendetta in such cases, live and let live...



But I suspect because it's Canonical made a mistake, it needs to burn down to the ground and the ashes scattered into the void.

I simply meant that the whole thing is disconcerting to me as a human. Not as an end user / developer whatever. If it was a simple mistake then it wouldn't matter at all (although if it was a simple mistake surely it would have been justifiable and would have not required an apology (not that one is required anyways since apologies are a waste of time to begin with (I agree with Stonecold1995's sentiment on that absolutely))). I have no vendetta. The world will keep turning irrespective of which direction Canonical decides to take. Similar to when they started the Unity desktop thing. It does seem like Ubuntu is slowing becoming something that the community would no longer consider GNU/Linux though (in the free sense). At least that is my perceived direction that it is taking. They are becoming an island in my eyes. I do agree with you on other people in the community making mistakes or not following through on things. I have seen that a few times. The only argument I have read so far in favor of this being good to the community was by 3rdalbumn which stated "Wayland development will speed up to a furious pace to compete with Mir, which will benefit all distros that may ship Wayland in the future.".

Edit: I think the move has a bigger impact on how other people in the community perceive Ubuntu rather than the technical advantages or disadvantages.

[hainen]

Yeah, I suppose your right. No need to apologize then though. They should have just told the community to get bent instead since that's the truth.



Then I don't see how it could be good in any realistic way at all for the rest of the ecosystem. That should sum it all up there. But could you elaborate on this a little more?

I'm on extremly thin ice now as I really dont versed in licenses. But as I'm understands it. GPL require linked code is under gpl, but double licensing is fine. Mit licence allow double licensing the code as gpl/mit. The effect is you can take mit code and double license in a gpl project. But as gpl don't allow double licensing. If you take gpl code to your mit licensed project you need re-license the project as gpl.

[dodo3773]

I'm on extremly thin ice now as I really dont versed in licenses. But as I'm understands it. GPL require linked code is under gpl, but double licensing is fine. Mit licence allow double licensing the code as gpl/mit. The effect is you can take mit code and double license in a gpl project. But as gpl don't allow double licensing. If you take gpl code to your mit licensed project you need re-license the project as gpl.

Okay so in this respect wouldn't the fault be with wayland upstream then rather than mir? Why not just gpl?

[Stonecold1995]

I don't think people are to worried about things like lying & ethics, just the way people are.

Um, yes they are. Especially in the open source software community.

[JDShu]

Okay so in this respect wouldn't the fault be with wayland upstream then rather than mir? Why not just gpl?

Because it's really low down the stack - anything that uses Mir libraries may need to be GPL'd depending on the legal specifics and many important applications would need to use the display server libraries. This could make it hard for third parties to write applications using Mir. Specifically, Martin Graesslin argues that KWin would be unable to use Mir without switching the whole codebase to GPLv3. Whether GPLv3 only is an acceptable license is a different debate, but the point is that it limits the choices of people who want to develop using Mir.

[dodo3773]

Because it's really low down the stack - anything that uses Mir libraries may need to be GPL'd depending on the legal specifics and many important applications would need to use the display server libraries. This could make it hard for third parties to write applications using Mir. Specifically, Martin Graesslin argues that KWin would be unable to use Mir without switching the whole codebase to GPLv3. Whether GPLv3 only is an acceptable license is a different debate, but the point is that it limits the choices of people who want to develop using Mir.

So would you say that this move may in a way actually be self defeating (on the desktop specifically not a phone)?

[JDShu]

So would you say that this move may in a way actually be self defeating (on the desktop specifically not a phone)?

I personally think so. I think the realistic outcome is that Mir will miss the deadlines and hobble along until it dissipates under a mountain of technical debt and hard problems. It's not going to destroy the community like some say, but it's also very unlikely to succeed within a reasonable timeframe. But hey, I could be completely wrong... let's see if Canonical can surprise me