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Thread: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

  1. #101
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Not sure how Linux Mint going its own way in a way that only benefits the Mint project and not the "upstream distribution" (Ubuntu) is ethically/morally different to Canonical developing its own display server. All this will work itself out in the end, anyway. Either AMD will support both or one of the two. If it's the latter, the others will come into line (Wayland or Mir). But reduplication of effort? That's just a Linux/FOSS thing. Ubuntu did not start that. Everything is a fork of something else.

    Clement Lefèbvre's answer was characteristically measured. As far as he's concerned, Mir doesn't exist yet and so there's no need to factor it into his plans for Mint. It's business as usual.

  2. #102
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigSilly View Post
    I think if Ubuntu delivers on Mir and its other plans, then no doubt nVidia and ATI etc will develop their drivers for the devices, just as they have for Android. I don't think however, that this will mean that suddenly they'll cease their output for Linux support though. As has been previously stated, Ubuntu is not Linux (and I agree with previous posters that it isn't bigger than Linux either), and this is becoming more and more apparent as they pull away. Nvidia did state they wouldn't support Wayland, but this was a long time ago now. I've no doubt that graphics drivers will still be created for whatever happens to Linux (ie. not Ubuntu) in the future. My honest feeling is that whatever Ubuntu gets up to, this isn't really going to have a massive impact on the rest of the Linux world insofar as driver support. As Clem from Linux Mint stated recently, Mir is irrelevant. In the future, there'll be Ubuntu, and Linux. This makes me sad ultimately, but it's what Mark wants.
    Define "Linux" then please. Last I checked Linux is merely the name of kernel which is used by Ubuntu.

    Yes, Mark is trying to pull away from Linux branding and rightfully so. You won't gain desktop acceptance if you associate your brand with geeks and coders. But from the technical POV Ubuntu is a Linux-based OS.

  3. #103
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigSilly View Post
    My honest feeling is that whatever Ubuntu gets up to, this isn't really going to have a massive impact on the rest of the Linux world insofar as driver support. As Clem from Linux Mint stated recently, Mir is irrelevant. In the future, there'll be Ubuntu, and Linux. This makes me sad ultimately, but it's what Mark wants.
    Here's the full quote from Clem:

    "Lefebvre: Mir is irrelevant. Nobody ever heard of it a week ago and plans don't change based on wild speculations. If Ubuntu isn't clear on what they want Ubuntu to be, that's their problem. It has nothing to do with Linux Mint."

    This is a very weird reply. It seems (at least to me) that Ubuntu is being very clear as to what they want to be -- a "unified" desktop that will work across multiple platforms. I smell a strong whiff of politics throughout Clem's response. The idea that there's going to be "Ubuntu, and Linux" is silly. Like Skybon said, last I checked, Ubuntu was a Linux-based OS.

    All that said, what Clem didn't say spoke volumes. As I read it, Clem will have no problem switching to MIR when and if Canonical establishes it as a viable display server.

    Clem's history with Debian-based MINT has always struck me as half-hearted. My prediction (I make a lot) will be that he's going to keep riding "Mark's" coattails wherever they carry him.
    Last edited by VTPoet; March 30th, 2013 at 06:41 PM.
    Linux: You reap what you tweak.

  4. #104
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    Here's the full quote from Clem:

    "Lefebvre: Mir is irrelevant. Nobody ever heard of it a week ago and plans don't change based on wild speculations. If Ubuntu isn't clear on what they want Ubuntu to be, that's their problem. It has nothing to do with Linux Mint."

    This is a very weird reply. It seems (at least to me) that Ubuntu has being very clear as to what they want to be -- a "unified" desktop that will work across multiple platforms. I smell a strong whiff of politics throughout Clem's response. The idea that there's going to be "Ubuntu, and Linux" is silly. Like Skybon said, last I checked, Ubuntu was a Linux-based OS.
    I didn't really see the response as political, but prudent with his choice of words. Many of us on the forum like to speculate a lot, but as the lead developer of a popular distro, that's not a very wise thing to do. I thought his response was quite appropriate with regard to Mir.

  5. #105
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    I absolutely think Clem's approach was measured, and that was why I linked to it. Let's wait and see, is the message.

    I guess what I'm saying is, with Android as an example, the fact that it has proprietary drivers and modules, this hasn't had an effect on the Linux "ecosystem" as per the thread title. I don't think Ubuntu and Mir will prove any more disruptive either. That's what I'm getting at in a roundabout way. There's Android, and there's the Linux ecosystem. There'll be Ubuntu, and the Linux ecosystem, and they don't necessarily have to have an impact on each other. I think drivers will come forward for Ubuntu if it's successful with Mir, and also Wayland when the time comes.

    I'm sorry if I've got the discussion wrong, but I thought the train of thought here was that Mir would come along and take away any efforts from proprietary driver creators from the wider Linux desktop, being probably Wayland based. I'm just saying I don't imagine this will prove the case at all. Oh, and sorry for my obviously offensive use of sabdfl's first name.
    AMD Phenom X4 945, 4Gb Crucial 800Mhz DDR2 RAM, 1Tb SATA III HDD, AMD Radeon R7 250X [Oibaf]

  6. #106
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Yes - it was only political in the sense that many politicians are careful with their words. Think how inadvertently inflammatory Mark's remark about having root proved to be. He was only speaking of the trust any user of a distro places in the maintainers of that distro. It pays to be careful.

  7. #107
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Guess I don't see phrases like "wild speculation", in reference to MIR, as either "measured" or "politic" (or referring to their decision as "their problem"). Not seeing it, but maybe that's just me.
    Linux: You reap what you tweak.

  8. #108
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    Guess I don't see phrases like "wild speculation", in reference to MIR, as either "measured" or "politic" (or referring to their decision as "their problem"). Not seeing it, but maybe that's just me.
    You may well be biased. (It's okay, we all are in some ways.)

  9. #109
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tartalo View Post
    KDE (and Gnome, and Enlightenment and and and) will continue with the years long work on Wayland, and won't change their plans unless they see Canonical deliver. Seems very reasonable to me.

    Mir is being used in 0 distros now, I know at least 2 experimental distros that are using Wayland right now (Maui and Rebeca Black OS), if we are talking about the future, all the major distros, even Ubuntu, include Wayland in the repositories.
    Arch Linux has Wayland in the repo's too

  10. #110
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBon View Post
    Yes, Mark is trying to pull away from Linux branding and rightfully so. You won't gain desktop acceptance if you associate your brand with geeks and coders. But from the technical POV Ubuntu is a Linux-based OS.
    So if you can call Ubuntu (or the future of Ubuntu) Linux, why do we not call OSX BSD? After all, it IS based on the Mach kernel, but no one in their right mind would use anything with "Apple" and "BSD" in the same sentence! Just because it's technically Linux doesn't mean it will carry any of the same philosophy as Linux.

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