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Thread: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

  1. #51
    prodigy_ is offline May the Ubuntu Be With You!
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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonian View Post
    Computers are manufactured specifically to use Windows
    O'rly? Last time I checked I had to pay for my hardware. And I want to be free to do whatever I please with it.

    ---

    Back to topic: a Linus post from lkml.org:

    > Our users want to be able to boot Linux. If Microsoft blacklist
    > a distribution's bootloader, that user isn't going to be able to
    >boot Linux any more. How does that benefit our users?


    How does bringing up an unlikely and bogus scenario - and when people call you on it, just double down on it - help users?

    Stop the fear mongering already.

    So here's what I would suggest, and it is based on REAL SECURITY and on PUTTING THE USER FIRST instead of your continual "let's please microsoft by doing idiotic crap" approach.

    So instead of pleasing microsoft, try to see how we can add real security:

    - a distro should sign its own modules AND NOTHING ELSE by default. And it damn well shouldn't allow any other modules to be loaded at all by default, because why the f*ck should it? And what the hell should a microsoft signature have to do with *anything*?

    - before loading any third-party module, you'd better make sure you ask the user for permission. On the console. Not using keys. Nothing like that. Keys will be compromised. Try to limit the damage, but more importantly, let the user be in control.

    - encourage things like per-host random keys - with the stupid UEFI checks disabled entirely if required. They are almost certainly going to be *more* secure than depending on some crazy root of trust based on a big company, with key signing authorities that trust anybody with a credit card. Try to teach people about things like that instead. Encourage people to do their own (random) keys, and adding those to their UEFI setups (or not: the whole UEFI thing is more about control than security), and strive to do things like one-time signing with the private key thrown out entirely. IOW try to encourage *that* kind of "we made sure to ask the user very explicitly with big warnings and create his own key for that particular module" security. Real security, not "we control the user" security.

    Sure, users will screw that up too. They'll want to load crazy nvidia binary modules etc crap. But make it *their* decision, and under *their* control, instead of trying to tell the world about how this should be blessed by Microsoft.

    Because it really shouldn't be about MS blessings, it should be about the *user* blessing kernel modules.

    Quite frankly, *you* are what he key-hating crazies were afraid of. You peddle the "control, not security" crap-ware. The whole "MS owns your machine" is *exactly* the wrong way to use keys.
    Last edited by prodigy_; February 28th, 2013 at 07:04 AM.

  2. #52
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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    People should take a step back and look at things from a normal user's perspective. By far, the biggest majority of desktop Linux installs is going to go onto a Windows PC. From now on, every Windows PC is going to have Windows 8 or later on it. Why in the world would you not want to make it easier to install Linux on a Windows PC at the kernel's level?

    Like it or not, this is a new way of life. If you want to intentionally make it harder to install Linux because you don't like this, then don't go crying about nobody wanting to install Linux. But know one thing, a few people whining about this isn't going to change anything.
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

  3. #53
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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonian View Post
    With all respect, I feel many Linux users are blinded by their demands for "freedom" of the hardware. Computers are manufactured specifically to use Windows or Mac OS X; if there was a demand for Linux PCs, they would make them, and they don't - doesn't that tell you something?

    You can approach this debate from any angle you want to push your agenda, but the fact is simple; most people DO NOT CARE about Linux, and why would the hardware manufacturers spend money - LOTS of it - just to keep a tiny minority happy?

    Wake up Linux.
    You're from the US?
    I'm from a soon-to-be-in-EU, and I can tell you, when I look at our local online hardware store, almost 50% of laptops and premade desktops have Linux preinstalled. Yes, they do that in order to reduce the price and probably believe that people will put (pirated) Windows on that, but the fact is that I have the same choice range as Windows users if I want to buy a Linux computer.

    (In fact, some Dell laptops available are Ubuntu only, no preinstalled Windows.)

  4. #54
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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonian View Post
    With all respect, I feel many Linux users are blinded by their demands for "freedom" of the hardware. Computers are manufactured specifically to use Windows or Mac OS X; if there was a demand for Linux PCs, they would make them, and they don't - doesn't that tell you something?

    You can approach this debate from any angle you want to push your agenda, but the fact is simple; most people DO NOT CARE about Linux, and why would the hardware manufacturers spend money - LOTS of it - just to keep a tiny minority happy?

    Wake up Linux.
    Whose blind? People like you don't even see when your being corralled
    for the fleecing.

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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Well, this was a interesting thread to read.
    My 2 cents:
    As people say UEFI != Secure Boot || Microsoft, I actually want my next PC to have UEFI, more flexibility and faster boot up speeds (Maybe I'm mistaken but I did read somewhere that instead of initializing everything, UEFI just inits the boot device and GPU then gives control directly to the bootloader).
    As for Secure Boot, I totally agree with Linus, why the hell should the Kernel cater to the will of Microsoft!? If a user truly wants to get Linux on their PC, they will get it, just look at the Beginner section of this forum! People who don't want to bother with Linux are usually driven away after they are told they need to burn a DVD/USB! Plus OEMs will provide tools to disable Secure Boot. Why? Because if your random Bob will have a problem with a PC, they won't go to Microsoft, they'll bug the OEM! Actually... They will bug whatever store they bought the PC from. But an Alice will just find a way to get Linux installed.
    It's kind of the same in the Android world, if a person wants to run custom roms or just get plain root, they will either stop at a "Download this and do this" tutorial and think "Nah" or they will go through the whole process and get the thing they want, I like to think of Secure Boot kind of like a locked bootloader on an Android device, a pain in le cushion-for-your-body-to-sit-on-chair but "fixable"
    Also, if Secure Boot stops more whiny users that can't even think outside the tools given to them, cool, let them stay with MS, less work keeping those people happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linus Torvalds
    "Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program."

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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by ssam View Post
    Its worth noting that the issue being discussed now is not about booting linux on a secureboot machine. its about how you trust third party binary kernel modules (eg Nvidia drivers).
    Everybody reading this thread, please take note. This is the crux of the issue. Linus is arguing that users should make their own decisions about whether to trust third party modules such as NVidia drivers. Garrett is arguing that we should make things as easy to use and secure for Linux users as possible, even if it means needing MS specific code in the kernel. They are both reasonable positions.

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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by JDShu View Post
    Everybody reading this thread, please take note. This is the crux of the issue. Linus is arguing that users should make their own decisions about whether to trust third party modules such as NVidia drivers. Garrett is arguing that we should make things as easy to use and secure for Linux users as possible, even if it means needing MS specific code in the kernel. They are both reasonable positions.
    =D>

    that's the point of all the discussion. same thing like for private codecs , drivers and so on. We should be the one deciding for it , not the kernel's developers/mantainers.

    LINUS is still protecting our right as users(our freedom and privacy). If we cannot appriaciate that , we should not deserve it.

    Please do not make this thread another linux vs windows fight..
    Last edited by fdrake; February 27th, 2013 at 11:13 PM.

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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy_ View Post
    O'rly? Last time I checked I had to pay for my hardware. And I want to be free to do whatever I please with it.

    ---

    Back to topic: a Linus post from lklm.org:
    You are free to do whatever you want with your hardware, in the same respect that the manufacturers of that hardware are equally as entitled to put whatever restrictions on it that they wish, for whatever reason, since they designed it and sold it.

    I can buy a cake, but that doesn't mean I am "entitled" to an exact secret recipe; I can cut the cake, eat it, give it away or throw it away, my free will extends as far as I like, but the baker doesn't have to make that cake to my specific recipe, NOR do they have to give me a concise list of ingredients and cooking times.

    Would you complain if you bought a car, but found out that it doesn't have suitable wheels to run on a railway track? Don't be naive - you can do whatever you will with it, but no company is obliged to ensure that the hardware they sell is TOTALLY compatible with every conceivable software environment that any one user, or users, may choose to attempt to make it work with.

    If you want to hack it and get it to work, go for it and share the fruits all you like; after all - is that not what Linux was intended to do? You're not "owed" a single thing - you paid for it knowing full well it may OR may not be compatible, so you have no recourse or reason for complaint.

    The computer experience for most users is:

    1/ Research computer and capabilities

    2/ Buy chosen model

    3/ Turn on, install software and use computer


    With all due respect to the FOSS community, the people likely to buy a PC or other hardware, and then want to make it work with non-supported software, are such an insignificant sprinkling, that it is not worth the manufacturers while to make it happen. Linux and FOSS are all very well, but hardware and software companies in the mainstream, real world, are in business to make money, not to cater for every possible hobbyist or fringe exception user.



    Take care.
    Last edited by nikonian; February 27th, 2013 at 11:15 PM.

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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by fdrake View Post
    =D>
    LINUS is still protecting our right as users(our freedom and privacy). If we cannot appriaciate that , we should not deserve it.
    To be honest, not really. My understanding is that what Linus is protecting is the purity of the Linux Kernel. In his view, there's no point in parsing Windows specific binaries in the Linux kernel when the standard is already supported. As I think he mentions in the thread, this is why various other parts of the kernel were taken out over time - they were not directly related to kernel functions. This is very much an engineering argument.

    Personally I use all open source software on the hardware level, with the exception of firmware binaries. However, if I were an NVidia or AMD Catalyst user, I would probably be a bit more comfortable if the disputed code was merged. It is at least one more attack vector that I wouldn't need to worry about.

    Finally, it's not like this would really give control to Microsoft from a user perspective. If you didn't want them calling the shots about what binaries are secure, then you could simply disable Secure Boot.

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    Re: Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “****-****** Microsoft”

    Quote Originally Posted by stinkeye View Post
    Well in my case, after dual booting for a while, realized I didn't need MS
    products at all. Last purchased Microsoft OS was XP.
    same here, i just never bought a license key unless it came with the system i got, and i build my all my desktops so i don't get a key when i do that, i have not seen any retail motherboards with secure boot enabled by default (i have built 2 system with UEFI BIOS)
    i also used virtualbox for windows for some time, but have found i rarely if ever use it
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