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Thread: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

  1. #11
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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    I have little experience with changing frame rates and no experience using Sony DLNA. AviSynth or avxsynth may be worth looking into, but I've never really used those either.

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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    No problem. It does appear that DLNA on the Sony is the main problem, with encoding the BD files as mpg probelm a result of the DLNA on the Sony. The manual states that it only picks up AVCHD and mpg (mpeg2) files.

    I will leave this as unsolved for anyone else to pick up. THanks again

  3. #13
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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    Quote Originally Posted by FakeOutdoorsman View Post
    I have little experience with changing frame rates and no experience using Sony DLNA. AviSynth or avxsynth may be worth looking into, but I've never really used those either.
    It depends on what course of action you decide to take.

    You can perform what's called a Euro pulldown, where 23.976 fps footage is flagged to play back at PAL standard 25 fps by duplicating frames on the fly (similar to the typical NTSC case of flagging 23.976 to 29.97). Those in NTSC countries are very familiar with telecined video, so they practically don't notice the duplication when watching it. PAL countries don't normally do this with Film content (instead they speed the video up and adjust the audio pitch, slightly shortening the running time), so it can be very noticeable to the eyes of people used to the typical PAL speed-up technique.

    Euro pulldown - if that's what you decide on doing - can be accomplished by running the video stream you get from FFmpeg through DGPulldown (you'll need Wine). You'll want to demux the video from the output .mpg file first, and you have to use the GUI - DGPulldown's CLI interface refuses to work with Wine.

    PAL speed-up can indeed be done by using AviSynth. Not sure if AvxSynth finally got its audio functions fixed, so it may be a no-go. But AviSynth can definitely perform this, and rather simply:
    Code:
    FFmpegSource2("input.mkv",atrack=-1,fpsnum=24000,fpsden=1001)
    AssumeFPS(25,sync_audio=true)
    SSRC(48000,fast=false)
    (if it says there's an error with SSRC not being able to resample the audio, just copy and paste the SSRC line above AssumeFPS, so that it goes SSRC->AssumeFPS->SSRC).

    And then you feed the script to the encoder. Again, needs Wine (which also means you could use HCenc as the MPEG-2 encoder instead of ffmpeg, if you wanted to).

  4. #14
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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    Interesting and informative post. Thanks.

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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    AFAIK
    The frame duplication for rate change of film to NTSC rates is not called euro pulldown; is named Telecining/3:2 pulldown.

    Euro judder/pulldown is the frame duplication to play PAL at approx. NTSC frame rate TVs; uses 2:2:3:2:3 pulldown.

    Possibly the best soln could be to use pull down & then allow the TV to detect & inverse telecine & play correctly at 24p cadence.

    AFAIK The only linux tools that do correct frame rate conversion by interpolation are mjpegtools & yuvmotionfps/yuvtools.
    These tools use pipes so can avoid the enormous intermediate files.

    It is not recommended to use frame creation for PAL to NTSC conversion..
    Last edited by BicyclerBoy; October 23rd, 2012 at 08:38 PM.

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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    Quote Originally Posted by BicyclerBoy View Post
    AFAIK
    The frame duplication for rate change of film to NTSC rates is not called euro pulldown; is named Telecining/3:2 pulldown.
    I never said it was. "Euro pulldown" is 23.976->25, or to be more precise, 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine
    This pulldown method is sometimes used in order to convert 24 frame/s material to 25 frame/s. Usually, this involves a film to PAL transfer without the aforementioned 4% speedup. For film at 24 frame/s, there are 24 frames of film for every 25 frames of PAL video. In order to accommodate this mismatch in frame rate, 24 frames of film have to be distributed over 50 PAL fields. This can be accomplished by inserting a pulldown field every 12 frames, thus effectively spreading 12 frames of film over 25 fields (or “12.5 frames”) of PAL video. The method used is 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 (Euro) pulldown (see below).
    ...
    ...
    PAL material in which 2:3 pulldown has been applied, suffers from a similar lack of smoothness, though this effect is not usually called “telecine judder”. Effectively, every 12th film frame is displayed for the duration of three PAL fields (60 milliseconds), whereas the other 11 frames are each displayed for the duration of two PAL fields (40 milliseconds). This causes a slight “hiccup” in the video about twice a second. Increasingly being referred to as Euro pulldown as it largely affects European territories.
    Doing a 25->29.97 flagging doesn't have any sort of special name beyond the flag pattern. This is only suitable for material that actually was composed to be played back at 25fps, since it would be incorrect to take material that had been subjected to PAL speed-up (like a Hollywood movie's European DVD release) and do the operation on it - you could just take it back to the original film rate and do a proper 3:2 on it. Why someone in an NTSC country would buy a European disc of a Hollywood movie is the probably more important question that situation raises anyway (the only reason I can think of is that the movie wasn't popular enough to get a release in North America), not how to properly deal with it.

    But for things actually produced in Europe, Australia, Africa, most of Asia and most of Central/South America, in which the audio is at a normal pitch and the frame rate is 25, slowing it down first to suit 23.976 will result in things sounding deeper than they should. Doing 25->29.97 pulldown flagging is the cleanest option to handle it without mucking with the audio (or deleting one frame every second, which would make the typical telecine judder that much worse), since the alternative - hard telecine requiring hardcoded interlacing - is incredibly messy and requires any software-based players to try and deinterlace or IVTC first, which often produces subpar results (it's also arguable that this might also be true of newer TVs and DVD players that either aren't hooked up/configured correctly or that just have problems with playback of interlaced content). If it's just flagged, players are typically intelligent enough to just remove the flags and return it to the proper framerate for playback. At least, mplayer does, and I've never had issues with my DVD players or TVs accepting 25->29.97 pulldown and it remaining smooth (or me just not noticing the hiccup).

    Short of your TV/computer monitor being able to output at 600Hz (or being able to switch between 47.952/48Hz, 50Hz, and 59.94/60Hz or multiples thereof, like 100 and 120), any conversion of actual framerate between NTSC, PAL, and Film will result in judder - whether it's noticeable to the viewer is a different story.
    Last edited by qyot27; October 24th, 2012 at 08:36 AM.

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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    Learn something new very day..I thought euro judder was from playback of 25fps on 30 fps displays..

    The latest TVs have real refresh rates of 100/120Hz.

    And the 24p mess is now happening with BDs (recording of i50 & 50p "motionflowed" to VC1-24p).

    I would hazard a guess that almost all PAL-land TVs & DVD players are happy playing NTSC frame rate media at native framerate.

    The OP could try to make a NTSC DVD from the original..
    That "conversion" is not so destructive/complicated & the player has a chance of detecting & undoing the damage.
    24p is so flickery anyway without frame creation tricks that conversion to NTSC DVD could be fine.

    ffmpeg can not encode (with correct temporal space) progressive scan video to interlaced video unless the original-fps=final-fps.
    i.e. need 50p to encode to i50(25fps).

    Possible to play 24p in ffmpeg & pipe (rawvideo) to mjpegtools (24p->60p) pipe to ffmpeg to encode NTSC DVD.
    Used this approach to convert 17fps DV to PAL DVD.
    Last edited by BicyclerBoy; October 26th, 2012 at 08:59 PM.

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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    Quote Originally Posted by BicyclerBoy View Post
    I would hazard a guess that almost all PAL-land TVs & DVD players are happy playing NTSC frame rate media at native framerate.

    The OP could try to make a NTSC DVD from the original..
    That "conversion" is not so destructive/complicated & the player has a chance of detecting & undoing the damage.
    24p is so flickery anyway without frame creation tricks that conversion to NTSC DVD could be fine.
    I think it's possible insofar as the framerate is concerned (I seem to remember reading that newer PAL TVs can play 24 and 30 without issues - probably gained as part of the move to HDTV and Blu-ray), but the resolution is where the problem lies: I would expect a PAL DVD player to choke on an NTSC DVD because of the resolution difference. Whether a PAL Blu-ray player can handle NTSC DVDs is iffy, I guess. But this may have been more of an issue with the first wave of BD players; the trend seems to be going to supporting all of this natively no matter where you are, so it may very well be possible now. I just wouldn't go in expecting it to work; if it does, I'd consider it a nice fringe bonus.


    To be honest, the trickiness of getting a native workflow to behave correctly on this is why I prefer to do it with Windows tools (read, AviSynth and HCenc) in Wine. HCenc can properly apply 3:2 pulldown to 23.976fps video during the encoding phase; DGPulldown is only necessary if you need to do exotic patterns, like 24 integer or 25 as the original fps.
    Last edited by qyot27; October 27th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    Quote Originally Posted by qyot27 View Post
    To be honest, the trickiness of getting a native workflow to behave correctly on this is why I prefer to do it with Windows tools (read, AviSynth and HCenc) in Wine.
    I'll mention HOWTO: AviSynth video processing with WINE for other readers who may be interested in following this route.

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    Re: ffmpeg BD mkv to pal-dvd jumpy

    It's a real shame & sad that AviSynth does not exist as a native app.

    My attempt to convert 17fps to PAL DVD with mjpegtools etc resulted in a "better" soln than the Adobe FinalCut Pro motion-flow.

    I've never had problems playing NTSC DVDs in PAL-land DVD players.
    YMMV if you suffer with zoning issues..

    The first wave of BD players were Sony PS3 with which they buried HD-DVD.
    The US versions of PS3 can not play BD i50.

    I haven't purchased any BDs with i50 (BBC Life/Planet Earth) because it is too easy to end up with a US 24p motionflow version..
    Downton Abbey was mangled to 24p because of US market.
    Last edited by BicyclerBoy; October 28th, 2012 at 09:27 PM.

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