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Thread: Unity MEGA Thread

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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldor View Post
    When close to achieving you quit! If you don't try you failed. Real Winners are not afraid of losing.
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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by czr114 View Post
    The UI paradigm shift and the ongoing code development/improvement are not one in the same. We can have the latter without scrapping the classic UI. That was an available choice, which was not made due to the push to change up the UI for the hell of it.
    Let me try to make this understandable with one of my(awesome) analogies

    Imagine that you have built a house. It's a small house at first, but adequate, and quite nice. However, more people move in, and they have different requirements. Some want a bigger living room, some want a room just for eating, some want a bigger bathroom, some want an observatory, etc.

    There was no plans for all this development when you built the house, so it all ends up being a huge mess, with some parts of the house showing cracks from all the stuff that has been added.

    Now, you could spend a lot of time and money on maintaining that house, adding additional support struts, and maintaining the old, crumbling parts.

    Or, you could sit down with everyone, and make a good, doable plan for a new house, which would have all of the things people need in it from the beginning, and it even designed so that new rooms can easily be added without compromising the original structure.

    Gnome chose the latter, have fun with your old, crumbly house.
    Last edited by NCLI; December 4th, 2010 at 10:20 PM.

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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Obviously, but why is offering a new vegetable to you for free, while still keeping the existing choices, such a bad thing?
    The existing choice is no longer trendy enough for further refinement and optimization, and may eventually lose compatibility with apps dependent on a new framework, not a new UI.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    It's certainly a simplification. I have installed Ubuntu for several people, and generally, the less they understand computers, the more they like it. That's a good thing if you ask me, since us experienced users can always just install our preferred DE.
    We'll get back to this point in a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Code:
    FF4 will be better than FF3. Ext3 was a better general-purpose filesystem than ext2. Unity is simply different.
    Why do you call them better? Isn't that just your personal opinion? Unity is faster, lighter(Compiz Unity) and doesn't rely on deprecated frameworks. It also changes the UI significantly, but so does FF4, and many people rebel against that as well, because they don't like it. That doesn't mean it's bad, not design is for everyone, that's why we have so many different DE's.
    Ext3 introduced journaling, better indexing, and increased size limits. That's a clear improvement for general purpose filesystems.

    FF4 is introducing hardware acceleration where there was none. (The UI can be put back to 3, but it's not a terribly drastic change)

    Those are examples of improvement coming without any rational argument for the old branch. There is a rational argument against a goofy dock, special effects, eye candy, and an abstracting menu, making the new branch subject to taste and preference in addition to raw benchmarks.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Not sake for the sake of change, but more choices for the sake of more choices.
    In this case, the choice comes at the expense of depreciation.


    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Now you're just being plain stubborn. Gnome 2.0 will still be there, and if people want it, someone will maintain it.
    It's being depreciated in the long run in favor of the OSX-ization of the DEs.

    Once again, any benefits from changes under the hood do not require forcing a new UI paradigm.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    You may not want Unity, but that doesn't make it true for everyone.
    Did I say that? Refer to several points above.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Bull****.
    Is the concept not demonstrated in those screen shots and the previews?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Hey look, autohide. What were you saying about "screenshots being enough"?
    So the goofy, ****ed up dock is only visible when a mouse is over it? Genius!

    GNOME panels are much slimmer by default, and can also be autohidden when every pixel counts. Your straw man autohide claim carries no weight.

    Autohidden anything on the sides can be a huge nuisance, especially for multi-monitor setups. The top isn't as bad, and the bottom is rarely a problem. Why? The sides of the screen act as useful stops for the mouse cursor. Either said autohidden element snaps out immediately, causing a nuisance to stray mouse movement, or it is set to snap out after a delay, which inhibits fast access.

    Believe it or not, there is a damn good reason for having a thin, fixed panel at the top to launch applications, monitor the system, and hold the tray, and a thin, autohidden panel at the rarely-used bottom to act as a taskbar.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Source please.
    When has a proliferation of eye candy and effects ever not consumed more resources than a simple, functional build?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    How is one click to access any application(After adding it to the launcher) "getting in the way of quick access"?
    No, that's the problem with screwy menus. The dock suffers from a different set of usability problems.

    For what you're looking for, a thin, unobtrusive top panel, devoid of fancy effects, is also a highly effective launcher for fast access.

    Rather than adding in support for workspace-specific panel options in G2, the entire interface is being gutted.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    No, but you do have to drive it to know its handling, seat comfort, noise level, etc.
    You're taking the analogy too far. The point is that certain glaring problems are sufficient to disqualify something from consideration without needing to evaluate minutiae.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    No it isn't, it's a fact.
    No, it's a straw man. You're minimizing real issues with this course of development while simultaneously implying that a depreciated branch can be run in perpetuity with no ill effects.

    The opportunity cost of the new UI was tangible, meaningful improvements in the current branch.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    So can Unity, your point being?
    The point was further down, but I'll spell it out here: just because a user can still obtain and build G2 doesn't mean that the user won't be troubled for having been the opportunity cost of the OSX-ization of the interface.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    I would agree with you if the Gnome panels were being removed from the software center, but they aren't. They're available in the default install, you don't even have to look at Unity!
    They're not being removed, just fading into the long tail, as the plan stands now.

    I'm hoping for a coding insurgency to fork the project.

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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    @czr114, ok, you say you're not trolling at this point? but what you're proposing is almost the same as trying to revive gtk1 or to go back to using kde2/3...

    obviously is not going to happen.

    so why not come up and propose something better instead of trying to stay tied to the past?
    When close to achieving you quit! If you don't try you failed. Real Winners are not afraid of losing.
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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Because trying to work on the old, bloated codebase is way harder and takes way more time than just starting from scratch. This mentality is the reason why Windows became worse and worse until recently.
    Are you daft? I've pointed out several times that the substructure changes are severable from the visual changes. There was no need to force a new interface to realize those benefits, yet the devs are ensuring that said benefits only accrue to those switching UIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    How is it a personal preference to dislike complicated menus, and lacking functionality?
    Complicated is your term. I would call them organized and hierarchical, and fast and clean, which are both good for those applications not used enough to be made into a panel shortcut.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Because that gets you more bang for your buck.
    Bells and whistles? Bang for the buck? Nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    The nice people who are growing cucumbers for you and giving them to you for free have decided to grow asparagus instead. However, they offer to give you the seeds they used for free, so that you can continue to grow them yourself.
    No, the appropriate analogy would be that, going forward, anyone who doesn't want to farm in seclusion will be forced to like asparagus. That's a **** poor way of doing things when G2 is fine, many people have no problem with the interface, and all that eye candy is simply not needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    What exactly are you complaining about?
    How many more times must I say depreciation?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Yes, and then Gnome 3 wouldn't be ready for many years to come.
    False. They simply chose not to keep the clean, simple panels on the new subsystem.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    No it isn't, the community will just have to maintain it. Perhaps there will be less love for Gnome 2 once people start actually working with the code.


    Which, if enough people want it, will no doubt be maintained by the community.
    Hopefully there will be an insurgency and fork. Too bad certain forces have chosen to waste time on glitz instead of real functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Also, why do you ignore xfce, KDE, lxde, enlightenment, fluxbox, openbox, blackbox, etc?
    ExcludingKDE, which is worse in many regards:

    I'm not ignoring anything, just hoping to avoid a top-down forced diaspora.

    I'll be forced to select one of those options in time. Too bad they aren't as mainstream.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Nope.
    Which tells me you don't give a **** about how others want to use their computers when it conflicts with your supreme opinion of what a UI must be.
    Last edited by czr114; December 4th, 2010 at 10:34 PM.

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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLI View Post
    Let me try to make this understandable with one of my(awesome) analogies

    Imagine that you have built a house. It's a small house at first, but adequate, and quite nice. However, more people move in, and they have different requirements. Some want a bigger living room, some want a room just for eating, some want a bigger bathroom, some want an observatory, etc.

    There was no plans for all this development when you built the house, so it all ends up being a huge mess, with some parts of the house showing cracks from all the stuff that has been added.

    Now, you could spend a lot of time and money on maintaining that house, adding additional support struts, and maintaining the old, crumbling parts.

    Or, you could sit down with everyone, and make a good, doable plan for a new house, which would have all of the things people need in it from the beginning, and it even designed so that new rooms can easily be added without compromising the original structure.

    Gnome chose the latter, have fun with your old, crumbly house.
    Once again, the substructure is severable from the UI changes. That analogy isn't parallel.

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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by madjr View Post
    @czr114, ok, you say you're not trolling at this point? but what you're proposing is almost the same as trying to revive gtk1 or to go back to using kde2/3...

    obviously is not going to happen.

    so why not come up and propose something better instead of trying to stay tied to the past?
    What I've been saying all along is that the current UI is sufficient and fine for those not looking for an OSX clone.

    The opportunity cost of development is development elsewhere. Every hour spent shuffling the UI around to please visionaries and trend-followers is an hour not being spent fixing real problems.

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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by czr114 View Post
    What I've been saying all along is that the current UI is sufficient and fine for those not looking for an OSX clone.

    The opportunity cost of development is development elsewhere. Every hour spent shuffling the UI around to please visionaries and trend-followers is an hour not being spent fixing real problems.
    actually they ARE trying to fix a real problem, probably one of the biggest problems of them all to expand their adoption with OEMs.
    When close to achieving you quit! If you don't try you failed. Real Winners are not afraid of losing.
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    Re: Stop Unity... Yes? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by czr114 View Post
    The screenshots are sufficient basis for a judgment. It consumes more screen real estate,
    If you don't choose to autohide the panel.

    more resources, and gets in the way of quick access.
    How could you possibly know the resource use and quickness of access from a screen shot?

    Later, Seeker

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    Re: Unity: Lets shed some light on the topic

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Miro View Post
    Compiz is not part of the Gnome project, does that mean that Ubuntu has not been using Gnome for quite some time now?

    The shell is a very small part of the DE. Unity is a variation of Gnome even if it is not part of the official Gnome project.
    WHat you said here makes no sense, at all. Of course, compiz has nothing to do with Gnome. Gnome allows you to run any number of different window manager on top of it. Metacity is just the default WM, but you could just as easily revert to Sawfish which was the default before Metacity. The window manager is not necessarily a part of Gnome any more than the shell/GUI is. Unity not in any way, shape, or form a "variation of Gnome". It is a separate project running on top of Gnome.

    As to the shell being a very small part of the DE - try telling that to the average end user who essentially only sees the shell. From their perspective, the shell is often perceived as the entire DE. It is the part the interact with after all.

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