View Poll Results: Do we need a mono-controversy FAQ?

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Thread: Old mono rants

  1. #291
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by perce View Post
    I really don't get it. According to the experts, most software, free or not, infringes someone else's patents. So why is everybody happily going to install MP3 support, Windows codecs and fonts, libdvdcss, programs with progress bars (yes, that is patented too), pirate Adobe CS3 under Windows, and then freak out for Mono and moonlight (where it is not even clear if it infringes any patent at all)?
    Because the people who freak out about Mono are hypocrites.

  2. #292
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by vexorian View Post
    Stop caring about patents in Linux, I really think that civil dissbedience towards the software patent laws is the way to go now, just worry about proprietary vs. non-proprietary.

    Regarding Mono, the real problem is but a practical one, why are we promoting/using what's basically a lead pony for .net . What we should be doing is innovate, not imitate, and making everything depend on MS innvented technology doesn't sound smart to me.
    Tell me oh great leader (who insults free software developers every chance he gets), what software innovations have you made?

    Oh, that's right. None.

  3. #293
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    Re: Get rid of Mono

    Quote Originally Posted by PmDematagoda View Post
    This is because, as I stated previously, this topic was discussed heavily in the Development section so the points raised here are recurring hence the move.
    I think its moved where most people wont see it , thus in effect the debate is dead; unless of course we have some clever users that use search to find things but I suspect many dont bother, they just use their OS and dont have time to go hunting, but thats just my take on it.

    I feel it is similar to the mcCain stance on the 'debates' < if your keeping up on politics that is>

    cheers
    nl

  4. #294
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    Re: Get rid of Mono

    Quote Originally Posted by neighborlee View Post
    I think its moved where most people wont see it , thus in effect the debate is dead; unless of course we have some clever users that use search to find things but I suspect many dont bother, they just use their OS and dont have time to go hunting, but thats just my take on it.

    I feel it is similar to the mcCain stance on the 'debates' < if your keeping up on politics that is>

    cheers
    nl
    I doubt if people who "just use their OS and dont have time to go hunting" care much about Mono. But maybe I'm crazy.

  5. #295
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by alternatealias View Post
    Tell me oh great leader (who insults free software developers every chance he gets), what software innovations have you made?

    Oh, that's right. None.
    Hey i just found your post. It would be very easy to ask you or Miguel if you did anything innovative besides pushing MS IP on Linux. But I won't as you can see, such things are irrelevant. The fact I have not yet made any major contribution to free software is not relevant at all. It does not make my argument any less true, it does not prove that article wrong. In other words, my argument stands, while yours has become just a personal attack.

    I really don't get it. According to the experts, most software, free or not, infringes someone else's patents. So why is everybody happily going to install MP3 support, Windows codecs and fonts, libdvdcss, programs with progress bars (yes, that is patented too), pirate Adobe CS3 under Windows, and then freak out for Mono and moonlight (where it is not even clear if it infringes any patent at all)?
    It is funny, cause ubuntu does freak out about even including those things on repos, has to use a restricted repository. Yet we are so happy to welcome Mono it as a requirement for our default apps.

    Because the people who freak out about Mono are hypocrites.
    As I have just shown, being so eager to include Mono and Mono-dependent apps on the default, but not do so with mp3, DVD , fonts and etc. That's the true hypocrisy.
    Xye incredibly difficult puzzle game with minimal graphics. Also at playdeb
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  6. #296
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by vexorian View Post
    Hey i just found your post. It would be very easy to ask you or Miguel if you did anything innovative besides pushing MS IP on Linux. But I won't as you can see, such things are irrelevant. The fact I have not yet made any major contribution to free software is not relevant at all. It does not make my argument any less true, it does not prove that article wrong. In other words, my argument stands, while yours has become just a personal attack.
    Miguel started GNOME and other projects like Gnumeric. Does that count as something other than "pushing MS IP on Linux"? If you want a "miguel-free" system, run Kubuntu.

    It is funny, cause ubuntu does freak out about even including those things on repos, has to use a restricted repository. Yet we are so happy to welcome Mono it as a requirement for our default apps.
    Mono is Free Software, implementing an international standard, and has never been the subject of patent-related threats. Why is it more dangerous than something like, say, Wine (which is not in Restricted/Multiverse)?

    As I have just shown, being so eager to include Mono and Mono-dependent apps on the default, but not do so with mp3, DVD , fonts and etc. That's the true hypocrisy.
    If you can't understand the difference between a free software implementation of a standard, an actively protected patented codec, an actively protected DMCA-violating cracker, and closed-source files whose license expressly only permits their distribution in winzip-self-extractor form... then there's really very little anyone can do for you
    Understanding is a three-edged sword: Your side, their side, and the truth

  7. #297
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    If you can't understand the difference between a free software implementation of a standard, an actively protected patented codec, an actively protected DMCA-violating cracker, and closed-source files whose license expressly only permits their distribution in winzip-self-extractor form... then there's really very little anyone can do for you
    If you would consider Mono to be a "free software implementation of a standard", why would you not consider libmpeg3 and FFMPEG to also be Free Software implementations of standards?

    Since 'libdvdcss' has never been prosecuted, let alone convicted, for DMCA violations, wherein lies your distinction between it and Mono?
    "We visited sixty-six islands and landed eighty-one times, wading, swimming (to shore). Most of the people were friendly and delightful; only two arrows shot at us, and only one went near -- So much for savages!" - J.C. Patterson

  8. #298
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by saulgoode View Post
    If you would consider Mono to be a "free software implementation of a standard", why would you not consider libmpeg3 and FFMPEG to also be Free Software implementations of standards?
    Presumably you mean libmad or liblame there, and yes, those implement a standard (ffmpeg implements many things, some of which are standards and some of which are not).

    So yes, those are indeed Free Software implementations of standards in part or in whole.

    However, the MP3 standard requires implementation of a patented algorithm, which has a license fee attached - and people can and have been chased down for violation of those patents. e.g. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...down_at_cebit/

    Since 'libdvdcss' has never been prosecuted, let alone convicted, for DMCA violations, wherein lies your distinction between it and Mono?
    By "never" you mean "in a high profile case", right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_jon...SS_prosecution
    Understanding is a three-edged sword: Your side, their side, and the truth

  9. #299
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    Presumably you mean libmad or liblame there, and yes, those implement a standard (ffmpeg implements many things, some of which are standards and some of which are not).

    So yes, those are indeed Free Software implementations of standards in part or in whole.

    However, the MP3 standard requires implementation of a patented algorithm, which has a license fee attached - and people can and have been chased down for violation of those patents. e.g. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...down_at_cebit/
    According to the Mono Project, Microsoft holds patents on the core of the .NET Framework. There is allegedly some promise of royalty free licensing being made available; but even if such is true, there is more to software being "Free" than just cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    By "never" you mean "in a high profile case", right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_jon...SS_prosecution
    By "never" I meant "never". DeCSS is not libdvdcss and while I didn't mean to include DeCSS litigation in my assertion, I would point out that Mr Johansen was acquitted of all charges.
    "We visited sixty-six islands and landed eighty-one times, wading, swimming (to shore). Most of the people were friendly and delightful; only two arrows shot at us, and only one went near -- So much for savages!" - J.C. Patterson

  10. #300
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    Re: how to rid your distro of Miguel de Icaza's junk code

    Quote Originally Posted by saulgoode View Post
    According to the Mono Project, Microsoft holds patents on the core of the .NET Framework. There is allegedly some promise of royalty free licensing being made available; but even if such is true, there is more to software being "Free" than just cost.
    Software being "Free" has nothing to do with cost. It's to do with Freedom, as best defined in the Debian Free Software Guidelines.

    The issue here is about software being "safe". That's gut feeling more than anything else. Some distributions come with MP3 support built in (because they don't feel that they're unsafe in doing so), others simply have no MP3 support at all (because they feel at high risk).

    Where companies have actively threatened people (either other proprietary companies or Free Software developers), then regardless of the validity of their complaints, the supposedly infringing technology is generally either rewritten or dropped. Freetype was modified to avoid threats from Apple, for example.

    Whether patent holders attack others is a measure of their business model. "Does it benefit me to do foo?" - for patent licensing companies (as surround MPEG patents) that's pretty obvious. For the case you're talking about... what is the compelling business argument for Microsoft to attack alternative ECMA-335 implementations, regardless of the legal validity of doing so? Would they win any prior-art arguments? Would they win any reciprocal attacks on Free Software companies' patents THEY violate? Would they win any goodwill or market share? Where's the profit in it?

    By "never" I meant "never". DeCSS is not libdvdcss and while I didn't mean to include DeCSS litigation in my assertion, I would point out that Mr Johansen was acquitted of all charges.
    Charges... of computer hacking.

    That doesn't help much with other complaints which can be pointed at people, such as DMCA violation, patent violation, or regional equivalents.
    Understanding is a three-edged sword: Your side, their side, and the truth

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