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Thread: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

  1. #131
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frak View Post
    We're talking about desktop Linux. If you cannot follow that, there's no point in arguing.
    And I'm saying linux is linux, what you compile it on has no weight here from a software client. If you can't follow that, there's no point in arguing. I've compiled linux for x86, sparc, MIPS, and several others. It doesn't stop being linux because the platform changes, and the ability to compile source for different platforms doesn't vanish. I've taken C code written for MIPS/IRIX and dropped it right on top of x64 linux and compiled it and I esentially ported an application from SGI to Linux in an hour. Why is it so hard to accept that the same thing can't be done in the SAME OS and kernel on different hardware?
    Last edited by toupeiro; April 16th, 2010 at 11:43 PM.
    "Its easy to come up with new ideas, the hard part is letting go of what worked for you two years ago, but will soon be out of date." -Roger von Oech

  2. #132
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    Quote Originally Posted by toupeiro View Post
    And I'm saying linux is linux, what you compile it on has no weight here from a software client. If you can't follow that, there's no point in arguing. I've compiled linux for x86, sparc, MIPS, and several others. It doesn't stop being linux because the platform changes, and the ability to compile source for different platforms doesn't vanish. I've taken C code written for MIPS/IRIX and dropped it right on top of x64 linux and compiled it and I esentially ported an application from SGI to Linux in an hour. Why is it so hard to accept that the same thing can't be done in the SAME OS on different hardware?
    But people have an easier time poking around in Desktop systems compared to embeddable systems. I can run a pretty un-secured Netflix client in an embeddable manner because nobody can poke around to get the media. Under desktop linux, the same application would be equivilent to giving a chocolate bar to a little kid. They can get off the outside wrapper, however messy they do it.

  3. #133
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frak View Post
    But people have an easier time poking around in Desktop systems compared to embeddable systems. I can run a pretty un-secured Netflix client in an embeddable manner because nobody can poke around to get the media. Under desktop linux, the same application would be equivilent to giving a chocolate bar to a little kid. They can get off the outside wrapper, however messy they do it.
    Well, that is another issue altogether, not one of cost or function, but security, which I will defer to the most true thing I can think to defer to, no system or encryption is unhackable. If a person has a will to compromise a netflix stream, embedded versus desktop is not going to be the element that thwarts them. If that was truly a pivot point, we wouldn't have streaming to windows desktops either. If there is a third party client, closed or open source, it had to pass Microsofts compliance to use it legally, and therefore would have to abide by the same security standards as a silverlight client. Even if it was firmware, this would be true. I'm not disagreeing with you that it wouldn't be easier on a desktop, I'm just saying that I don't believe thats why its on linux set-top and not on linux-desktop yet.
    Last edited by toupeiro; April 16th, 2010 at 11:53 PM.
    "Its easy to come up with new ideas, the hard part is letting go of what worked for you two years ago, but will soon be out of date." -Roger von Oech

  4. #134
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    I think what Frak is saying (please correct me if I'm misunderstanding) is that lacking DRM on an embedded Linux or appliance-like device is all right, because the vast majority of users (even most power users) won't want to go to the trouble to figure out how to pirate those streams. If you release a DRM-free Linux desktop client, there's absolutely no piracy control at all.

    Whether you agree that DRM actually prevents people from pirating proprietarily-licensed media or not, the major movie studios believe DRM works, and so they put the pressure on Netflix to implement DRM (otherwise, no streaming movies), and so Netflix won't do Instant Watching without DRM. If the movie studios feel okay about a lack of DRM on appliances, then that's their call.

  5. #135
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu View Post
    I think what Frak is saying (please correct me if I'm misunderstanding) is that lacking DRM on an embedded Linux or appliance-like device is all right, because the vast majority of users (even most power users) won't want to go to the trouble to figure out how to pirate those streams. If you release a DRM-free Linux desktop client, there's absolutely no piracy control at all.

    Whether you agree that DRM actually prevents people from pirating proprietarily-licensed media or not, the major movie studios believe DRM works, and so they put the pressure on Netflix to implement DRM (otherwise, no streaming movies), and so Netflix won't do Instant Watching without DRM. If the movie studios feel okay about a lack of DRM on appliances, then that's their call.
    Then maybe I did miss the point. I didn't gather this from what he was saying. I think we're both of the impression that lacking DRM would violate too many agreements with movie distributors that Netflix does business with. I think we've just got different opinion on how DRM is manifesting itself in a set-top linux solution, and whether its applicable to a desktop linux solution. If its being delivered by firmware, thats probably a deal breaker for desktop linux, but if its not, then its strictly a matter of license and entitlement, which is what I believe is keeping the very same linux set-top client from desktop clients.
    Last edited by toupeiro; April 17th, 2010 at 12:06 AM.
    "Its easy to come up with new ideas, the hard part is letting go of what worked for you two years ago, but will soon be out of date." -Roger von Oech

  6. #136
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    I think any time there is a technical side of things and a marketing side of things, it's a bit of a tightrope walk. The important thing, as far as the studio execs are concerned, isn't whether technical implementations are consistent; it's really more about what makes them feel psychologically reassured that their cinematic properties are secured.

    I'm not saying I know anything about how it's all implemented. Maybe there is DRM on Roku boxes. Maybe not. I don't know. I'm just saying as long as Hollywood execs think it's too difficult for people to pirate streaming movies off a Roku box, it's not necessarily true that Roku boxes have to have DRM... and I think that's what Frak is saying too. Again, not sure.

  7. #137
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    I've been burning through more of NXP's and Roku's documentation, it does look possible that they could be leveraging HDCP (High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) which prior revsion 2.0 was limited to specific media interfaces, however 2.0 appears to encrypt over anything, including the HDCI and S-video interfaces on the back of the roku. This may be sufficient enough encryption to satisfy DRM requirements, is the only thing I could find that even remotely smells like firmware DRM. However, since the HDMI spec is now being natively incorporated into most modern desktop video cards and on-board video, this wouldn't necessarily be a showstopper for desktop linux if it were being leveraged.


    EDIT:

    HDCP appears to be a proprietary component of the HDMI specification and utilizing it would require a license, ergo, if a software or firmware tool were to leverage HDCP on any system, it would require a license for that client to do so. Since Roku is a standardized offering, there is less red tape to get a device licensed as opposed to a software client meant a broad spectrum of hardware, which to me puts a little more foundation behind believing the only thing keeping it off linux desktops is license and entitlement, if I'm even close to the right page, that is.. Doesn't really matter, I guess, its all speculation.

    Interesting reading up on this stuff, anyhow.


    Cheers
    Last edited by toupeiro; April 17th, 2010 at 01:19 AM.
    "Its easy to come up with new ideas, the hard part is letting go of what worked for you two years ago, but will soon be out of date." -Roger von Oech

  8. #138
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu View Post
    The important thing, as far as the studio execs are concerned, isn't whether technical implementations are consistent; it's really more about what makes them feel psychologically reassured that their cinematic properties are secured.
    Exactly and I'm saying once a critical mass of Chrome netbooks, powerful android 4G smartphones, and possibly linux touchscreen pads is reached those execs will no longer feel good about leaving money on the table. If device like the android phone is able to double or triple the number of everyday linux users (over 100,000 moto-droids sold in the first weekend), soon there will be the critical mass. At that point Fraks argument turns against him.

  9. #139
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    2 scenarios:


    Microsoft's Silverlight running on Linux (Moblin):

    http://news.zdnet.com/2422-19178_22-345905.html




    Android* running on Ubuntu (Virtualbox):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bKLibm5kME



    "Netflix is looking for “a great engineer to help us build Instant Streaming client implementations on Android devices.”



    That could bring Netflix to Linux, I think.

  10. #140
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    Re: Netflix streaming on Linux?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_NYC View Post
    2 scenarios:


    Microsoft's Silverlight running on Linux (Moblin):

    http://news.zdnet.com/2422-19178_22-345905.html

    ....



    That could bring Netflix to Linux, I think.

    If Moblin is Linux, albeit on a phone, how hard would it be to port it to Ubuntu?

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