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Thread: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

  1. #51
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    … … …
    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.
    … … …
    Superb post (I've snipped it in the quote, but it is the entire comment I am referring to) - this describes exactly my thoughts, phrased better than I could ever have hoped to myself. My sig now links to this post.

  2. #52
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by tsali View Post
    I don't accept your analogy because I have no choice about paying taxes. I do not get to weigh the value of that return against the service I'm getting.

    However, with any OTHER item that I am free to choose if I want to use it, I can weigh that out; Do I think that this piece of closed source software offers enough value for what it costs me?

    In the case of many Microsoft and other closed source programs, YES they DO offer superior value.
    That has nothing to do with my analogy. You're just being contrary.

    My point is that I can benefit from the public availability of knowledge even if I don't avail myself of the knowledge directly. I am not a coder and do not modify the code I receive; yet I assert that I still benefit from the openness of the code.

    As for your closed source programs offering superior value -- when did I say that wasn't possible? I said that freedom is a feature that I value, even though I don't modify or often read the code. How are you taking that to mean that all FOSS is better than all proprietary software?

    A computer is a tool or appliance that performs a service. Most don't care HOW. They DON'T differentiate between the software and hardware. They DON'T care where the CPU or hard disk is located or how they work.

    It's about like asking if people care about the metallurgy that went into making a screwdriver. They don't - they just want to use the tool.
    The point is simply this: if computers matter so much, software matters. If you say, "computers make a big impact on my life" but "software is not important" -- that's contradictory. Because the only part of a computer that matters in that context is the software.

    To take your screwdriver analogy, it would be like someone talking about how important the quality of his tools is to him, but that metallurgy and design don't matter. Since the quality of a tool is directly the result of its design and the metallurgical processes used in its construction, that statement makes no sense (unless, perhaps, he's asserting that some other element contributes to the quality of a tool).

    Now, if you want to argue that computers (and therefore software) are not important to our daily lives, that's another issue.

  3. #53
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    To take your screwdriver analogy, it would be like someone talking about how important the quality of his tools is to him, but that metallurgy and design don't matter. Since the quality of a tool is directly the result of its design and the metallurgical processes used in its construction, that statement makes no sense (unless, perhaps, he's asserting that some other element contributes to the quality of a tool).
    being important and caring about this importance are not equivalent notions
    The limits of my language mean the limits of my world

  4. #54
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by karellen View Post
    being important and caring about this importance are not equivalent notions
    Isn't "caring" rather the thing that makes something "important"? If you care about something, it is important; if you don't care, it is not important.
    "We visited sixty-six islands and landed eighty-one times, wading, swimming (to shore). Most of the people were friendly and delightful; only two arrows shot at us, and only one went near -- So much for savages!" - J.C. Patterson

  5. #55
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    As for your closed source programs offering superior value -- when did I say that wasn't possible? I said that freedom is a feature that I value, even though I don't modify or often read the code. How are you taking that to mean that all FOSS is better than all proprietary software?
    Perhaps I read that in, but it is a general principle among the FSF hardcore that inferior performing open-source software is better than superior performing closed source software for the simple reason that it IS open-source. I assert that most users only care whether the software yields the desired results in practical application.

    The point is simply this: if computers matter so much, software matters. If you say, "computers make a big impact on my life" but "software is not important" -- that's contradictory. Because the only part of a computer that matters in that context is the software.

    To take your screwdriver analogy, it would be like someone talking about how important the quality of his tools is to him, but that metallurgy and design don't matter. Since the quality of a tool is directly the result of its design and the metallurgical processes used in its construction, that statement makes no sense (unless, perhaps, he's asserting that some other element contributes to the quality of a tool).

    Now, if you want to argue that computers (and therefore software) are not important to our daily lives, that's another issue.
    I did not say that software wasn't important. I said that having to KNOW about the guts of that software isn't as important as what the software can do for you. In that sense, whether it is opn or closed source becomes irrelevant.

    As far as the screwdrive goes...quality is measured by its performance in practical application - NOT by the amount of nickel the alloy might contain.

    I could own a high quality GOLDEN screwdriver, but somehow, I think it'd end up being a lousy screwdriver because it won't do the job.

    That was my point.

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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by saulgoode View Post
    Isn't "caring" rather the thing that makes something "important"? If you care about something, it is important; if you don't care, it is not important.
    nope. oil is important but people usually don't care about the process by which petrol is refined and transformed into oil
    The limits of my language mean the limits of my world

  7. #57
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by tsali View Post
    Perhaps I read that in, but it is a general principle among the FSF hardcore that inferior performing open-source software is better than superior performing closed source software for the simple reason that it IS open-source. I assert that most users only care whether the software yields the desired results in practical application.
    I do not represent the FSF hardcore. I represent me.

    You are correct that most users *don't* care, but how does that establish that they shouldn't? Most Wal-mart shoppers don't care if they buy clothes made in an Asian sweat-shop, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

    I did not say that software wasn't important. I said that having to KNOW about the guts of that software isn't as important as what the software can do for you. In that sense, whether it is opn or closed source becomes irrelevant.
    Again, my whole point was that open source code conveys advantages to the user whether or not they care about the guts of the software. It is not irrelevant, for reasons I've already outlined and won't rehash.

    As far as the screwdrive goes...quality is measured by its performance in practical application - NOT by the amount of nickel the alloy might contain.

    I could own a high quality GOLDEN screwdriver, but somehow, I think it'd end up being a lousy screwdriver because it won't do the job.

    That was my point.
    But you just proved my point. The fact that the screwdriver is made of gold makes it lousy, precisely because of the metallurgic properties of gold. Ergo, its metallurgical aspects directly contribute to its quality, so to say that you only care about one and the other is irrelevant is contradictory.

    Look, let's not argue the minutiae of the analogy but get back to the real point: If computers are important to our lives, software is equally so; because the software is the important part of the computer. Do you disagree with that?

  8. #58
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    haha.Learn them how looks a real operating system:Linux,Compiz and a black GTk +2 theme.

    Learn them what is fast internet.Download a big file with wget and show them the speed.With windoze i download 233 kb/s but in linux i download with 5 MB/s.

    Learn them what is a real respectable licence.GPL!

    Learn them real community.Take them to ubuntuforums.org

    tnx

  9. #59
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyhacker View Post
    haha.Learn them how looks a real operating system:Linux,Compiz and a black GTk +2 theme.

    Learn them what is fast internet.Download a big file with wget and show them the speed.With windoze i download 233 kb/s but in linux i download with 5 MB/s.

    Learn them what is a real respectable licence.GPL!

    Learn them real community.Take them to ubuntuforums.org

    tnx
    I'd be afraid to learn something from someone who was "learning me" rather than "teaching me."

  10. #60
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by tsali View Post
    Perhaps I read that in, but it is a general principle among the FSF hardcore that inferior performing open-source software is better than superior performing closed source software for the simple reason that it IS open-source. I assert that most users only care whether the software yields the desired results in practical application.
    For what it's worth, I would say that I do regard Open Source as a virtue in its own right - I will compromise to some extent on technical quality and features in the interest of using Free Software over proprietary. However, I do have what I consider reasonable limits, rather than the "Free Software or death" attitude of some. If the Open Source options in a particular area are seriously deficient and I will be significantly hindered by relying on them, I would use a proprietary alternative.

    In the six years I've been using Linux, the number of niches that still need to be adequately filled by Free Software has dropped by quite a margin - I see no reason for this not to continue and in time almost all tasks will be achievable solely with F/OSS, no compromise necessary.

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