Threats, and using the code of conduct in ways it was never intended imho

[jdong]

Are you saying that banning the words lies and fud and threatening infractions are consistent with those guidelines?

No, sir, I am not. I was just answering that specific question; as Matthew said, KiwiNZ had been primarily handling this issue.

[matthew]

In the first thread you linked to you made this post:

with AMD Athlon64 you can use both 32bit or 64bit ubuntu versions and since you are new and want to take a look and also experience the 3D desktop its better to use 32bit..

Please do not come into the 64bit section spreading the "you should use the 32bit version" fud.

I understand what you are saying, but calling madmetal's contribution to the discussion "fud" was a bit over the top. It is still true that we have some work before us as a community before everything that works in the 32 bit version of Ubuntu will work as well in the 64 bit. For a newcomer, often the best advice is simply to use the 32 bit. That's not spreading fear, uncertainty, nor doubt. It's simply an unfortunate fact, and a problem that is being worked on, but which takes time. Right now, the applications and even the need simply aren't there for everyone to use the 64 bit version, and since it isn't vital for the productivity of the average user at this moment, I see no problem with the advice being given to run good, working 32 bit code on a processor designed to use either.

In your next post in the thread, you state:

i am not for or against 64bit or 32bit but i think for a new user with no experience the 32bit version will be a smoother introduction at ubuntu...

I dont, this is the 64bit section, no one here does. Its FUD and not FACT. Please dont spread lies.

Again, I would recommend that anyone above a basic level of proficiency with our OS, and perhaps even most users, use the 64 bit version and submit bug reports as issues are found. This is the only way it will reach the level of fluidity and polish of the 32 bit version. I'm sorry, but it is not true to say that 64 bit Ubuntu has reached exactly the same level of ease of installation of certain features that many people really like. It is getting closer and closer all the time, though, and many of the objections and difficulties that people have had in the past simply do not exist any longer.

I think this thread, and the links it contains, do a good job summing up the potential advantages and disadvantages of running one vs the other. You may think otherwise, but the overall community opinion is that the 64 bit version is excellent, but still a small step below the 32 bit version for some users' needs. Saying to someone who merely wishes to make that thought known to a new user, "don't spread lies," is alarmist. If you were to disagree using good evidence and clear arguments your points could be heard and considered. Instead, you are telling someone else to stop speaking. Instead of censoring others contributions to the conversation, you might better choose to contribute a kindly worded alternative viewpoint that could convince other users of your point of view rather than simply tell people to shut up (even politely).

This is what I believe bodhi.zazen was stating here.

The rest of the exchange in the links provided is simply an extension of this issue.

The bottom line for me is this: your points are valid and I would love to hear them expressed in a way that encourages new users to consider them. The way they were expressed in this exchange was poor and did not contribute to a healthy discussion of the relative merits of 32 vs 64 bit Ubuntu, but rather caused an near-immediate degrading of the discussion into grumpiness and frustration. If you were to change the manner of your communication, your content would be extremely valuable to the discussion. Please consider that. This is the reason for the warning and the threat of infraction. Could that have been expressed better? Maybe, but I think bodhi.zazen did a very good job of writing in a clear, unemotional tone and I stand behind him and what he had to say.

Kilz, you are a long-standing member of this community and we appreciate your presence. You have many useful things to say and ideas to contribute. Please continue to do so. If you are able to express yourself with more grace and less direct confrontation in your style, you would find a lot of appreciative listeners.

This is the ultimate goal, I believe, of bodhi.zazen's actions as well as Kiwi's. In my reading of the various parts of the preceding discourse I see no effort to specifically ban the words "lies" or "fud" and every effort to simply help you discover a more useful and effective way to contribute to this community and the education of new users.

[Kilz]

In the first thread you linked to you made this post:
I understand what you are saying, but calling madmetal's contribution to the discussion "fud" was a bit over the top. It is still true that we have some work before us as a community before everything that works in the 32 bit version of Ubuntu will work as well in the 64 bit. For a newcomer, often the best advice is simply to use the 32 bit. That's not spreading fear, uncertainty, nor doubt.
It's simply an unfortunate fact, and a problem that is being worked on, but which takes time. Right now, the applications and even the need simply aren't there for everyone to use the 64 bit version, and since it isn't vital for the productivity of the average user at this moment, I see no problem with the advice being given to run good, working 32 bit code on a processor designed to use either.

I think that is a difference of opinion. One that most people running the 64bit version will tell you is false. There is a less than 1% differences in available packages between the different versions according to launchpad. That all common packages are there and the difference can be accounted for in packages that may have been merged or are 32bit specific.
What madmetal said that made me post that was this post. Where he used Fear of not being able to run an application (3d desktop) Uncetranty that the version he had already chosen to run was able to run it (64bit is able to run the 3d desktop) and Doubt that all new users feel was exploited.

In your next post in the thread, you state:Again, I would recommend that anyone above a basic level of proficiency with our OS, and perhaps even most users, use the 64 bit version and submit bug reports as issues are found. This is the only way it will reach the level of fluidity and polish of the 32 bit version. I'm sorry, but it is not true to say that 64 bit Ubuntu has reached exactly the same level of ease of installation of certain features that many people really like. It is getting closer and closer all the time, though, and many of the objections and difficulties that people have had in the past simply do not exist any longer.

Unfortunately that is an opinion most people who dont run the 64bit version have. Which relies on it never getting better. I think you need to take a look at that again as it is the same thing that was said about dapper, and edgy, Feisty is not the ssame.

I think this thread, and the links it contains, do a good job summing up the potential advantages and disadvantages of running one vs the other. You may think otherwise, but the overall community opinion is that the 64 bit version is excellent, but still a small step below the 32 bit version for some users' needs. Saying to someone who merely wishes to make that thought known to a new user, "don't spread lies," is alarmist. If you were to disagree using good evidence and clear arguments your points could be heard and considered. Instead, you are telling someone else to stop speaking. Instead of censoring others contributions to the conversation, you might better choose to contribute a kindly worded alternative viewpoint that could convince other users of your point of view rather than simply tell people to shut up (even politely).

You chose a thread that has a lot of links that prove that the assumptions of 64bit not being ready are false.
Per the link you chose to use
"Note:In the end you the user will have to make the choice of what is right for you,and you needs."
So is it correct to use Fear Uncertainty and Doubt to make a new user who has already made the decision to install 64bit change his mind?

This is what I believe bodhi.zazen was stating here.

Had it ended there I could have lived with it.

The rest of the exchange in the links provided is simply an extension of this issue.[

The bottom line for me is this: your points are valid and I would love to hear them expressed in a way that encourages new users to consider them. The way they were expressed in this exchange was poor and did not contribute to a healthy discussion of the relative merits of 32 vs 64 bit Ubuntu, but rather caused an near-immediate degrading of the discussion into grumpiness and frustration. If you were to change the manner of your communication, your content would be extremely valuable to the discussion. Please consider that. This is the reason for the warning and the threat of infraction. Could that have been expressed better? Maybe, but I think bodhi.zazen did a very good job of writing in a clear, unemotional tone and I stand behind him and what he had to say.

I am who I am. I have made 3900+ posts as myself. I like me. But I honestly think that the subject was diverted away from the problem at hand into opinions on the way I post.

Kilz, you are a long-standing member of this community and we appreciate your presence. You have many useful things to say and ideas to contribute. Please continue to do so. If you are able to express yourself with more grace and less direct confrontation in your style, you would find a lot of appreciative listeners.

This is the ultimate goal, I believe, of bodhi.zazen's actions as well as Kiwi's. In my reading of the various parts of the preceding discourse I see no effort to specifically ban the words "lies" or "fud" and every effort to simply help you discover a more useful and effective way to contribute to this community and the education of new users.

Here I will disagree with you. I do not think I misunderstood.

As I stated above, I do not see madmetal's post as FUD, it is at worst outdated and possibly accurate for some version of Ubuntu.

I can see you are quite passionate about the issue though

What I am asking is for you to be aware of the Ubuntu Code of Conduct :

http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

IMO you posts are calling the information posted by madmetal "lies" and "FUD" is out of line.As I am a member of the Beginners Team I will ask for another mod to render an opinion on the issue.

and

I find terms like "FUD" and "lies" to be inappropriate and inflammatory to the subject hand. This type of language does not build trust or a working relationship between us, nor does it assist new users better learn to run 64 bit. If you insist on using such language on the Beginner sub forum, or if I see you treating my team members in such a way on the 64 bit forum, I will hand out infractions.

Those quotes say to me (especially the last one)that he is going to give infractions for the use of the terms lies and fud. He has made them impossible to use without the threat hanging over the head of the person using them. Please if you respond to nothing else respont to the threat of using the Code of conduct in such a way as to threaten infrations for the use of the words "lies" and "fud" and if bodhi.zazen has the right to ban their use with that threat.
Adding to it the personal message that I still have and will be glad to forward, or even give my password to a forum staff member to look at.

If you insult the beginners team I will give you an infraction. I do not like being heavy handed that way and will leave it as a warning to you this time.

Calling outdated information "FUD" or "lies" is inappropriate and goes against the ubuntu ethos. It is in my opinion a personal insult.

Please either learn to ignore such information or correct it is such a way that is less offensive. There are many ways to provide information without resorting to insults. If you are frustrated with the forums, give it a break and come back when you can post without violating the code of conduct.

The simple question I am asking is is it consistent with the moderators guidelines to issue such threats and banns on the words lies and fud?

[matthew]

I think that is a difference of opinion. One that most people running the 64bit version will tell you is false. There is a less than 1% differences in available packages between the different versions according to launchpad. That all common packages are there and the difference can be accounted for in packages that may have been merged or are 32bit specific.
What madmetal said that made me post that was this post. Where he used Fear of not being able to run an application (3d desktop) Uncetranty that the version he had already chosen to run was able to run it (64bit is able to run the 3d desktop) and Doubt that all new users feel was exploited.

Whether what he said was pure FUD or merely misguided or uninformed really boils down to your perception of the guy's motives. Did madmetal intend to send users running away in fear from the 64 bit version or was he honestly trying to be helpful? I can't tell from his post and neither can you. He does not obviously fit into either camp. In the absence of clear-cut evidence (like a long standing trend from this specific user, or totally obvious forgeries of data like "using the 64 bit version will make your computer explode, small children cry, and God will kill a kitten if you do it") that his intent was malicious, I prefer to presume he was merely misinformed. The best way to combat either problem, fud or misinformation, is a consistent, fair, kind, and complete detailing of correct information. It is not a full-scale frontal assault. Your response was closer to one than the other...and it wasn't on the more helpful end of the scale.

Oh, and by the way, I am in full agreement that the 64 bit version is in an excellent state and worthy of being recommended to almost everyone, so this isn't about my opinion on the actual issue.

Unfortunately that is an opinion most people who dont run the 64bit version have. Which relies on it never getting better. I think you need to take a look at that again as it is the same thing that was said about dapper, and edgy, Feisty is not the ssame.

+1

You chose a thread that has a lot of links that prove that the assumptions of 64bit not being ready are false.
Per the link you chose to use
"Note:In the end you the user will have to make the choice of what is right for you,and you needs."
So is it correct to use Fear Uncertainty and Doubt to make a new user who has already made the decision to install 64bit change his mind?

I think the end user should have a choice of what to use. The best way for that choice to be made well is by informing the user of his options in a clear, even-handed manner.

Had you said, "You know, I think you're trying to help here, but what you are saying isn't accurate. It may have been earlier, but advances have been made making it possible to do the things you are mentioning very well on the 64 bit platform" you would have been accurate, as well as effective in refuting the statement. This could have been done without resorting to accusations of "FUD!!" and so on...and the end user you mention would not have had to endure/witness the silly argument that followed.

I honestly think that the subject was diverted away from the problem at hand into opinions on the way I post.

I like who you are. In this case, the problem was precisely how you posted. That was not a diversion. Your information and point of view were not inappropriate, your expression of them was, because it was inflammatory and unhelpful in correcting the very errors you objected to.

Those quotes say to me (especially the last one)that he is going to give infractions for the use of the terms lies and fud. He has made them impossible to use without the threat hanging over the head of the person using them. Please if you respond to nothing else respont to the threat of using the Code of conduct in such a way as to threaten infrations for the use of the words "lies" and "fud" and if bodhi.zazen has the right to ban their use with that threat.

He is threatening to give infractions for using those terms to silence people, as if they somehow end all disagreement with you. The terms "lies" and "fud" are not, in and of themselves, objectionable. Your attempt to use them in a way that says to a user, "Your opinions are invalid and I wish you would be quiet" is counter-productive and create an atmosphere that is not conducive to the free exchange of ideas. You could have phrased your thoughts as, "I have heard people say things like this and this information simply isn't true. Here is evidence to support what I'm saying <link>. Perhaps it was unintentional, but when a person makes an unsubstantiated comment implying that a 3D desktop cannot be run on 64 bit Ubuntu, that just isn't the case and I want to correct the misconception. If you were lying, shame on you. I imagine, though, you were merely misinformed, have out of date information, or bought into some FUD that someone, somewhere may have spread." without any threat of infraction.

Adding to it the personal message that I still have and will be glad to forward, or even give my password to a forum staff member to look at.

You can forward it to me if you think it is necessary. So far I haven't seen anything that makes bodhi.zazen look anything but good in my eyes.

The simple question I am asking is is it consistent with the moderators guidelines to issue such threats and bans on the words lies and fud?

I still haven't seen any threats or bans issued solely because of the words themselves. The problem is the context and the manner in which they were being used were inflammatory and not conducive to a smooth discussion of benefits and potential problems with the end user's decision.

[Kilz]

I still haven't seen any threats or bans issued solely because of the words themselves. The problem is the context and the manner in which they were being used were inflammatory and not conducive to a smooth discussion of benefits and potential problems with the end user's decision.

Perhaps you are missing something if you dont see it.

Originally Posted by bodhi.zazen View Post
I find terms like "FUD" and "lies" to be inappropriate and inflammatory to the subject hand. This type of language does not build trust or a working relationship between us, nor does it assist new users better learn to run 64 bit. If you insist on using such language on the Beginner sub forum, or if I see you treating my team members in such a way on the 64 bit forum, I will hand out infractions

This entire quote is a threat for using the words. Not only in the ongoing discussion but also in the future ("in such a way on the 64 bit forum"). I see it as nothing more than someone abusing power to silence people who dont agree with him.
That he has made the words fud and lies unusable is not just my opinion , but that of others I have talked to. Simply because it is his standard of how they are used that will result in infractions.

[matthew]

I still haven't seen any threats or bans issued solely because of the words themselves. The problem is the context and the manner in which they were being used were inflammatory and not conducive to a smooth discussion of benefits and potential problems with the end user's decision.

Perhaps you are missing something if you dont see it.

This entire quote is a threat for using the words. Not only in the ongoing discussion but also in the future ("in such a way on the 64 bit forum"). I see it as nothing more than someone abusing power to silence people who dont agree with him.
That he has made the words fud and lies unusable is not just my opinion , but that of others I have talked to. Simply because it is his standard of how they are used that will result in infractions.

No. He is not making a threat "for using the words." Please read my statements again, highlighted for clearer communication. Taking only one of his posts, without the full context of the previous conversation, it would seem that he was. This is most assuredly not the case when you factor in the full history within the exchange.

[Kilz]

No. He is not making a threat "for using the words." Please read my statements again, highlighted for clearer communication. Taking only one of his posts, without the full context of the previous conversation, it would seem that he was. This is most assuredly not the case when you factor in the full history within the exchange.

I see it completely different. That he is making conflicting statements may be the case. But at this time I do not feel safe posting. This was not the case before bodhi.zazen made his threat. Because his threat is not based on rules in a book, but his interpretation of words. Let me say that it is awful difficult to read into statements posted on forums. I fear saying that fud is fud when it clearly is.
You appear to be bending over backwards to back him up. Looking for any reason to excuse the threat and telling me that my clear reading and experience is wrong.
Reading the fud posted as not mean spirited, but that my words were. Strange how you seem to not see thats exactly what bodhi.zazen sees.
I feel strongly against anyone speaking untruth about the 64bit version. Sadly its excused and allowed, when reported its left standing and never removed.
I also fear what is going to be done to new users now that he is the head of a team devoted to them. How many people is he going to "interpret" and hand out infractions to.

[matthew]

I see it completely different. That he is making conflicting statements may be the case. But at this time I do not feel safe posting. This was not the case before bodhi.zazen made his threat. Because his threat is not based on rules in a book, but his interpretation of words. Let me say that it is awful difficult to read into statements posted on forums. I fear saying that fud is fud when it clearly is.
You appear to be bending over backwards to back him up. Looking for any reason to excuse the threat and telling me that my clear reading and experience is wrong.
Reading the fud posted as not mean spirited, but that my words were. Strange how you seem to not see thats exactly what bodhi.zazen sees.
I feel strongly against anyone speaking untruth about the 64bit version. Sadly its excused and allowed, when reported its left standing and never removed.
I also fear what is going to be done to new users now that he is the head of a team devoted to them. How many people is he going to "interpret" and hand out infractions to.

I fear we have reached an impasse. I have tried to the best of my ability to communicate what we are thinking and why things have been said and done, but I have been quite ineffective in helping you comprehend the forum staff's point of view. I'm not quite sure what I can do to fix that. It's approaching midnight where I live, so I'm off to get some sleep. Maybe by tomorrow I will have a new idea to help me communicate more clearly to you that:

• no one on this staff is out to get you, or anyone else
• this has never been about specific words, in and of themselves--"fud" or "lies"
• this has only been about learning how best to present and express various points of view in a way that does not imply negative things about other users

The forum rules that seem to be causing you problems are these:

Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention.

and

Please see the Ubuntu Code of Conduct's requirements to "Be Considerate" and to "Be Respectful" and the descriptions given there for more exact specifications.

which refers specifically to this

Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project, and with users of Ubuntu.

[Kilz]

That rule deals with personal attacks. Are you saying that telling someone they are spreading fud and repeating lies is a personal attack?

[matthew]

I'm saying that the manner in which you did so came off as disrespectful, whether that was your intent or not (and I tend to think it was not).