13.04 should be dedicated to performance.

Here are some info.
1. Compiz and unity are getting slower (even though they were already pretty bad): http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=17836

2. Other DEs, including GS are getting faster.

3. Windows is also getting faster.

4. Unity 2D, the alternative to Unity that does not make everything else run slower is being dropped.

5. Maybe (And this is just a theory), maaaybe we don't have such an urgency into adding features to unity. Maybe we can live on without trying to make unity do yet another thing that is already done well by the web browser or the file browser. Maybe we can survive a 6 months cycle without spending so much effort in these things. Things like previews are cool. But as long as it is not viable to run latest games while unity is on. With Unity-2D gone, I have to switch to gnome-fallback or a terminal before running games. I suspect that windows gamers get good performance without having to switch their desktops.

Therefore, I propose, let us dedicate RR to performance of the ubuntu-only things, and by that, I mean compiz. In fact, let us call it "Rapid Raccoon" or something. I am not saying to stop adding features. Just that the largest priority should be making compiz stop making everything laggy. And I mean, I can't even run Angry Birds in chrome without getting huge performance losses. I have to switch to unity 2D to do that :/

Considering all the design and thought into unity, it is really a shame that it is losing users instantly because of performance. I am not saying that it should be as fast as XCFE, but I see no reason not to make it able to run full screen games without adding slow downs (you know, unity and compiz are idle at that time, so they really shouldn't make things slower). A lot of the design put into unity are simple features that do not need to make everything slower. So, everything points out to compiz being a terrible piece of sofware. Can't that be fixed?

adding missing features and fixing bugs

I'd be much more content with Unity and GNOME Shell if I didn't need to log into fluxbox or GNOME fallback mode in order to do anything related to 3d.

Prior to Natty, I'd simply disable desktop effects whenever I decided to do some gaming. Now, I need to disrupt my workflow, close all my stuff, log into a different DE, etc. Really, really annoying.

My desktop environment should not make a noticeable change in my applications. Windows 7 and OS X have no such issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaldor

I'd be much more content with Unity and GNOME Shell if I didn't need to log into fluxbox or GNOME fallback mode in order to do anything related to 3d.

Prior to Natty, I'd simply disable desktop effects whenever I decided to do some gaming. Now, I need to disrupt my workflow, close all my stuff, log into a different DE, etc. Really, really annoying.

My desktop environment should not make a noticeable change in my applications. Windows 7 and OS X have no such issues.

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+1 really.

Give us a break! 12.10 hasn't even been released yet... :(

Looking at only one aspect is a recipe for disaster, so no, it should not be dedicated to performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaldor

I'd be much more content with Unity and GNOME Shell if I didn't need to log into fluxbox or GNOME fallback mode in order to do anything related to 3d.

Prior to Natty, I'd simply disable desktop effects whenever I decided to do some gaming. Now, I need to disrupt my workflow, close all my stuff, log into a different DE, etc. Really, really annoying.

My desktop environment should not make a noticeable change in my applications. Windows 7 and OS X have no such issues.

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Plus 1 for disable effects. I have a powerful enough system now that it isn't an issue but I still have my XP set for performance so that it looks like W2K.

I normally log in to 3D but like knowing that I can log in to 2D.

Fix the heat issue.
Laptops are melting out there.
Nobody likes an OS that kills their laptop.

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Originally Posted by codingman

Give us a break! 12.10 hasn't even been released yet... :(

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by KiwiNZ

Looking at only one aspect is a recipe for disaster, so no, it should not be dedicated to performance.

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Exactly. Despite what is posted here, 13.04 will focus on whatever comes out of UDS-R, i.e. a number of things as yet undecided.

Ubuntu is already darn fast- i would hope they could keep that speed, and focus on 100% stability.

but if we don't the bloat the os with flash and flare then all the hipsters will still use windows :-(

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Originally Posted by d3v1150m471c

but if we don't the bloat the os with flash and flare then all the hipsters will still use windows :-(

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Citation Needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KiwiNZ

Looking at only one aspect is a recipe for disaster, so no, it should not be dedicated to performance.

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I never said "looking at only one aspect". But feel free to reply without reading. I said making it a priority.

The whole performance regression is a terrible thing and it makes the whole ubuntu idea pointless. If we can't even be faster than windows then we are into a world of suck. Performance used to be a selling point.

Every release has had a list of things to focus. So, I don't believe it makes sense to disagree on this only because of the 'focus' aspect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by codingman

Give us a break! 12.10 hasn't even been released yet...

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I would bet you ten dollars that if I made this thread after 12.10 is released I would be replies like "it is already decided what it will be about so this is pointless".

I prefer to get the "12.10 hasn't even been released yet" excuse.

12.10 already is slower and features have been freezed so...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaldor

I'd be much more content with Unity and GNOME Shell if I didn't need to log into fluxbox or GNOME fallback mode in order to do anything related to 3d.

Prior to Natty, I'd simply disable desktop effects whenever I decided to do some gaming. Now, I need to disrupt my workflow, close all my stuff, log into a different DE, etc. Really, really annoying.

My desktop environment should not make a noticeable change in my applications. Windows 7 and OS X have no such issues.

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I normally log in to 3D but like knowing that I can log in to 2D.

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I am trying to make a pair of scripts that toggle between compnzi unity and unity-2d.

Code:

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#!/bin/sh
metacity --replace &
sleep 2s
unity-2d-panel &
unity-2d-shell &

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Code:

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#!/bin/sh
pkill unity-2d
compiz --replace &

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So, it seems possible to move from one unity to the other without closing other programs. But it is sort of messy.

Switching from unity-2d to unity-3d works well, the other does not really work that well. Something bugs out about the window borders. But the launcher and menu bar are present so any full screen app can be launched and once launched you don't care about title bars, I guess.

Hopefully I'll found out a way to fix this glitch.

The idea to remove unity-2D looks more and more of a misidirection every day.

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Exactly. Despite what is posted here, 13.04 will focus on whatever comes out of UDS-R, i.e. a number of things as yet undecided.

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So, without feedback how do you expect UDS-R to have any perspective on what to decide?

Before they decide, Let them keep in mind that compiz has been getting slower (This has been benchmarked by a verifiable source, so not a matter of opinion) when it should have been getting faster. That it has become a handicap making it even less likely for unity to become accepted. That it is making ubuntu less competitive against other ubuntu remixes, Linux distros and proprietary OSes. And that there is no reason to believe there is no room for optimization.

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but if we don't the bloat the os with flash and flare then all the hipsters will still use windows

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Windows 8 and Mountain Lion are both flashy and stuff without making performance drop terribly. So...

If you are so dead-set on getting the attention of the developers, try using the mailing lists or launchpad, as they rarely read the forums.

i don't recommend complaining to launchpad or the mailing lists at all. the targeted audience is obviously not the oldfags, like myself, or the power users. you may want to install the server and then install a DE of choice. blackbox and openbox are good choices IMHO, or you may prefer something like lxde or xfce. then you can invest your complaining to developers and likeminded users that support your hopes and dreams of not wasting all of your cpu on a spinning cube and panels with a mind of their own :-)

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Fix the heat issue.
Laptops are melting out there.
Nobody likes an OS that kills their laptop.

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I hear ya bro. This is the main reason I'm hesitant to install Ubuntu on my main laptop. Every full-sized laptop I've had Ubuntu on since Breezy Badger has run very hot. And two of them have had a shorter than expected lifespan. I can't prove that broke them, but I'm pretty sure laptops shouldn't run as hot as they often do with Ubuntu. I'm not too bothered if one of my old netbooks burns out (both a running hot with Ubuntu, but ok with Windows). I'm not prepared to take that risk with my i5 though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d3v1150m471c

i don't recommend complaining to launchpad or the mailing lists at all. the targeted audience is obviously not the oldfags, like myself, or the power users. you may want to install the server and then install a DE of choice. blackbox and openbox are good choices IMHO, or you may prefer something like lxde or xfce. then you can invest your complaining to developers and likeminded users that support your hopes and dreams of not wasting all of your cpu on a spinning cube and panels with a mind of their own :-)

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Minimal install > server install imo. :KS

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Originally Posted by vexorian

I never said "looking at only one aspect". But feel free to reply without reading. I said making it a priority.

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1. Don't be rude.

2. Thread title "13.04 should be dedicated to performance." definition of dedicated "wholly committed to something,"

3. "Therefore, I propose, let us dedicate RR to performance of the ubuntu-only things"

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Originally Posted by KiwiNZ

Looking at only one aspect is a recipe for disaster, so no, it should not be dedicated to performance.

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Agree. Compiz is smspillaz's child, and only him and a handful of developers know the way around it (a Compiz bug rated as "bitesize" is a dinosaur compared to other softwares), and everyone else in Canonical has their own job. Don't make CERN scientists be doctors, unless you want cancer patients being fed to the Hadron Collider (joke somewhat courtesy of Cracked)

I think they should work on the performance as well. After using Xfce for a few years Gnome and Unity just seem heavy. Sure Xfce is meant to be more lightweight, but it does have built in compositing, which can easily be turned off if you need the 3d performance for a game or whatever.

I'm sticking with my Lucid Lynx until the bitter end... It has everything that I want and need. It's familiar to me (I know where everything is). It's built for a computer, not a touch screen tablet (I won't get a touch screen or tablet because I like my traditional, REAL keyboards and mice too much).

I started messing with Ubuntu since Intreped Ibex. I didn't get seriously interested until Jaunty Jackalope (which is STILL my favorite). But every new release has had it's pros and cons. I've never seen so many complaints as I've been seeing since the release of Unity. I'm glad I didn't follow everyone.

Once Ubuntu 10.04 is no longer supported, I think I'll have to move on to Xubuntu 12.04 because it's stayed similar to what I know and love about Linux and the Ubuntu family. I've already tried Precise Pangolin in a few different builds sitting around the house and was disappointed every time.

I'm going to sit back and wait for one of three things to happen:

1: They release 13 the same way Windows 7 was released. As an apologies for Vista. They've fixed everything and called it 7.

2: They release a new XFCE that incredibly, stays the same for us old farts who don't like the new Unity desktop environment.

3: Sadly, I'll have to move back to my pirated copy of Windows 7 and drop Linux all together because they've forgotten us :(

I think they need to dedicate 13.04 to finding a new DE for default. :guitar:

They at least need to start working on getting rid of that old corroded Compiz. Compiz was awesome in its day, but then again, so was Windows 3.11. ;)

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Originally Posted by spaceshipguy

Fix the heat issue.
Laptops are melting out there.
Nobody likes an OS that kills their laptop.

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Heat issue? My ThinkPad never exceeds about 55 C... Most of the time it runs at 45....

I think it's more about the design of the laptop itself, and how hard you push them.

I've never had a laptop overheat on me either. And as much as I hate Precise Pangolin, it's never caused an issue with any of the desktops or laptops that I've used them in... I just don't like it because it's weird and looks a LOT like Apple.

I've never had a heating problem either, but I mostly agree with the original poster. I think something like what Apple did with snow Leopard wouldn't be out of place. Rewrite things, leaving mostly the same functionality, but clean out the clutter and add consistency.

Not to minimize what Canonical and other Ubuntu developers do, but if you've been around for a few years you tend to notice that Ubuntu release focuses on depend as much on what upstream developers are doing as what the Ubuntu project does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceshipguy

Fix the heat issue.
Laptops are melting out there.
Nobody likes an OS that kills their laptop.

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+1 from me!

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Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn

Not to minimize what Canonical and other Ubuntu developers do, but if you've been around for a few years you tend to notice that Ubuntu release focuses on depend as much on what upstream developers are doing as what the Ubuntu project does.

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True. But to give them a little lift again, since Unity came out, they actually are part of upstream now.

Not that that makes Unity any better of a DE. ;)

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Originally Posted by S2UIRR3L

2: They release a new XFCE that incredibly, stays the same for us old farts who don't like the new Unity desktop environment.

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I doubt you will see any major changes in xfce. xfce 4.10 which will be in xubuntu 12.10 will also be in 13.04. Even if xfce 4.12 makes it to 13.04 there won't be much changes.
I don't think xfce is gonna change much in the next couple of years interface wise.

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Originally Posted by forrestcupp

True. But to give them a little lift again, since Unity came out, they actually are part of upstream now.

Not that that makes Unity any better of a DE. ;)

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True, and of course there's Upstart as well; but my main point is, a "performance-focused" release would almost certainly involve mainly upstream, low-level work (kernel, libc, X11, GTK, Compiz, drivers, etc).

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Originally Posted by kaldor

Prior to Natty, I'd simply disable desktop effects whenever I decided to do some gaming.

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A reason why I just ran with disabled effects all the time.

Quote:

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Not to minimize what Canonical and other Ubuntu developers do, but if you've been around for a few years you tend to notice that Ubuntu release focuses on depend as much on what upstream developers are doing as what the Ubuntu project does.

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Totally agree. The development done by Ubuntu engineers is just part of a much bigger eco-system.

However, since Cannonical are totally responsible for Unity and the Ubuntu Marketplace I would suggest that they work hard to try and improve the performance. I have found those parts of Ubuntu to lag heavily on older machines.

I'm selfish in that I don't run any old machines, therefore do not care about Ubuntu's performance on such beasts; I would, however, like to see more development on streamlining the existing Unity interface. Laptop battery life (amongst other things) is still woeful when compared to Windows, but I imagine much of that is outside Ubuntu's control - short of developing more and more aspects of the OS.

Consumer operating systems have to be a good balance of performance, usability, and aesthetics; to focus primarily on one, would lead to a diminished product. For the record, I'm still a GS fan.

I do agree with the performance problem. With the whole Steam, Unity (the game engine) and other game studios starting to appear on Linux, it will be a disaster for Ubuntu and the Linux community if the performance issues are not addressed quickly. Think about this: If the Windows crowd try to switch or make a go at Ubuntu for their gaming needs and have to deal the with huge performance hit that we currently face, they will just laugh and go back to Windows.

Make no mistake: Ubuntu is THE premiere distro for gaming in Linux, with Steam, Unity (the game engine) and others only supporting Ubuntu for the time being. This means if any Windows gamer wish to try to use Linux as their main/only OS then it will be Ubuntu. But unlike us seasoned Linux users, the new-come Windows gamer crowd won't want to switch to XFCE, LXDE, KDE or some other DE / WM, just because Unity and Compiz give them such lousy performance in games.

No, they will simply laugh at us and run back to Windows, never to return. We will be the laughing stock - we will never hear the end of it how.. "Linux finally gets games, yet can't even run them well enough lol". This will spread like wildfire to their friends and other circles.

Ubuntu's chance of making something for itself with getting the market share it wants and other big studios onboard will simply turn away because Windows gamers took one look, laughed and ran back to Windows due to the performance issues. First impressions last, and unless Ubuntu can SHOW that it's worthwhile competitor to Windows for gaming (and other 3D work) straight off the bat, then gamers WILL run back to Windows.

Most of them simply do not care to install Ubuntu then some other desktop environment, just because the default one has such a huge performance loss. All they want to do is game, sure, later on they MAY be interested in tweaking their distro more, but you have to show them that Ubuntu is worth while - you have to make that first impression count.

You have to remember, many of these gamers have been bashing Linux for years, claiming "there are no games on Linux" and that "Linux is no good for gaming". Prove them wrong, fix the performance problems once and for all, otherwise you might as well pack up now, because one look and they'll just laugh and go back to Windows, taking the golden market share and developers with them.

EDIT: You need to wow them with performance. Make the Windows gamer go "WOW, Ubuntu gaming is great!" Being free is not enough, most of the gamer crowd run illegal copies of Windows anyway. You need to show the Windows gamers that Ubuntu performance is not only very good, but better than Windows. Frame rate and performance is everything to a gamer. I know, because I'm one of them.

I'm for the notion. I've been on 10.04 LTS and just recently switched to 12.04 LTS only to be presented with a clunky interface that's slow and feels bloaty. I've hopped over to Xubuntu.

It's not that Unity is garbage for everyone, since I can see why some ex-Apple fanboys/fangirls like it. But it's not for me and I haven't been able to get used to it because it feels very sluggish compared to the old Gnome. Even Gnome 2 with Compiz is/was a great performer as it ran like liquid even on relatively old hardware while still providing the eye candy.

Gnome 3 hasn't been the top performer, and while KDE4 is getting a good speed-boost it still has some polishing to be done until I feel like switching to it completely (can't wait for KDE5!).

In my opinion Linux is supposed to burn rubber and completely blow away any and all competition when it comes to performance. I suppose at the core it still does this, but with these new desktops environments I'm not so sure any more.

I agree with heminder. Without using things like Legacy modes in compiz or falling back to 2D environments full screen gaming is an problem.

If the DE can't play nice with the application then why use the DE?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LowSky

I agree with heminder. Without using things like Legacy modes in compiz or falling back to 2D environments full screen gaming is an problem.

If the DE can't play nice with the application then why use the DE?

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Windows users will simply see it as... "If Ubuntu can't play nice with the application, then why use Ubuntu/Linux?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceshipguy

Fix the heat issue.
Laptops are melting out there.
Nobody likes an OS that kills their laptop.

---

While I was having a problem with the power consumption of Fedora compared to Ubuntu 10.04, I've found that Ubuntu 12.04's power consumption very, very low. I run powertop and follow its suggestions -- and it consumes about a third less power according to powertop, and less than when I was running 10.04. This is true whether I'm running gnome session or unity.

I don't know why there's such a difference between the two -- they're pretty similar systems. I wish I understood Linux power consumption better...

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Originally Posted by forrestcupp

I think they need to dedicate 13.04 to finding a new DE for default. :guitar:

They at least need to start working on getting rid of that old corroded Compiz. Compiz was awesome in its day, but then again, so was Windows 3.11. ;)

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'nuff said!

And I agree. Either that or just flippin' make it run smoother/lighter.

And btw, can someone explain to me why there are seemingly two panels now instead of one? (Unity launcher and the oldskool top panel) I mean wouldn't it make more sense and save more screen real-estate to just use ONE of them instead of having both?

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Originally Posted by mr john

However, since Cannonical are totally responsible for Unity

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Well, yes and no; Unity is a plugin to compiz, a compositing window manager that relies heavily upon GPU support/performance. Poor GPU driver support, or bugs in compiz, are absolutely going to impact the performance of Unity.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but people need to understand that no program is an island, and the more egregious issues are usually solved pretty far upstream.

I agree with this-but not just performance. We need to have the One Hundred Paper Cuts project again-fix usability issues that annoy everybody. Specifically, this is what I would like to see:
1. Better driver support, and the option to install drivers direct from the manufacturer during the install. Also, make new open source drivers for devices where the manufacturers only support Windows. One place where this is really an issue is in the wireless card category-that seems to be the cause of half the problems here.
2. Default to text-based installer if the video card is unusable with the built in drivers (and also have the text based installer as an option in some menu). This would really be good since the text based installer CD is being revoked, so why not integrate it with the regular CD?
3. Speed. I remember when I first booted 12.04 from 11.10. 30 second boot time increase. Still 30 seconds faster than Windows, but every second feels like an ice age, regardless of how long it takes. Also, many people who try Ubuntu do so because Windows has grown to fast for their machines to keep up. Lets try to keep our bragging rights that we are much more efficient than Windows.
4. Sleep mode. This must be improved-I hate having to close everything because I have to restart LightDM just due the lock screen not showing up when I open the lid of my laptop.
5. Better gaming controller support. Specifically, I would like to see a GUI for Xbox PC controller drivers-I can not figure it out to save my own life, and some games do not support it or use weird keys, and others have partial support for the Xbox controller (like Portal under Steam under Wine).
6. A new group management system GUI would be nice. Although I can use the built in terminal group manager just fine, for new users it can be daunting, adding themselves to groups just to be able to perform certain tasks. I know this because I was once trying to figure out what the heck a usergroup was.
But, all of these are just suggestions. Still, they are common gripes that are probably the biggest source of frustration for the average user.

While Ubuntu performance isn't on par with SUSE, Fedora, Arch, or Debian, it's still better than Windows... The Valve developers even admitted such.

Ubuntu isn't slow, it's just slow compared to other Linux.

That being said, Ubuntu 12.04 with 3.5 kernel, Brtfs filesystem is pretty quick, a whole lot quicker than Windows...

For those of us who don't play games, what exactly is the performance issue? I'm running Kubuntu 12.04, and I don't see what the fuss is about. I don't really care about desktop eye candy; I hardly ever look at my desktop. Right now I have a full-screen Firefox window open. Even when I have multiple desktop Windows, moving among them, copying/pasting, etc., doesn't feel slow.

I have Kubuntu 12.04 running on three different machines. This one has a Q6600 and an NVIDIA 9500GT. Another is a 6-7 year-old Dell Inspiron 640m laptop with i945 graphics and a dual-core Pentium. The third is a dual-core Atom with an NVIDIA ION for graphics. For CPU-intensive tasks I might prefer the Q6600 machine. Otherwise I see little difference among them in terms of daily tasks like these:

web browsing (Firefox)
email (Thunderbird)
shell sessions (local and remote via SSH)
office applications, primarily spreadsheets and documents (Open/LibreOffice)
audio (Clementine)
video (smplayer)
graphics (GIMP)
statistics (gretl)
VMs (VirtualBox)

What am I missing out on in terms of performance?

From reading postings here over the past couple of years the things I think require the most work are:

suspend/resume
hybrid laptop graphics like Optimus
wifi drivers
installations that don't run afoul of nomodeset
transparent interoperability with phones and iThings
convenient multi-language support
residual audio problems with pulse/Jack
support for various peripherals like webcams, fingerprint readers, etc.
printer installation

Performance doesn't appear anywhere on that list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikeb85

While Ubuntu performance isn't on par with SUSE, Fedora, Arch, or Debian, it's still better than Windows... The Valve developers even admitted such.

Ubuntu isn't slow, it's just slow compared to other Linux.

That being said, Ubuntu 12.04 with 3.5 kernel, Brtfs filesystem is pretty quick, a whole lot quicker than Windows...

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My Windows 8 install boots faster than Ubuntu.

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Originally Posted by Ubun2to

But, all of these are just suggestions. Still, they are common gripes that are probably the biggest source of frustration for the average user.

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They're important issues, but most of what you listed are kernel issues. Ubuntu does very little work on the kernel, and there are major projects in place to improve driver support for the Linux kernel. It's not something that's going to be significantly impacted by a papercuts project or an Ubuntu development cycle.

I like your #2 idea, but I'm afraid the Ubuntu devs are going the other way and dropping support for alternate install.

For what it's worth, performance *should* improve over the next few releases. It took a hit in moving from GTK2 to GTK3, and with the switch to a composited window manager. Hardware will catch up to this, and FOSS video drivers are always improving. I don't see any similarly taxing changes coming in the near future to set it back again, but who knows?

It should be dedicated to Ubuntu users in long-term. Current users opinions, bug reports, feature requests should be the focus in 13.04+. They should be taken more effectively than they are now. Current users should be taught on how to contribute to Ubuntu. Recruiting and retaining contributors seems like a priority to me now.

Something like this would make me happy:

- Create open/transparent metrics to classify bugs, ideas and requests in Launchpad according to their relevance / severity. A,B and C. 0 to 10. Red, Yellow, Green. Short-term, mid-term, long-term. High-importance, low-importance, irrelevant. Anything will do as long as it's adopted broadly and communicated openly;

- Publish these metrics and detailed instructions so that community members can volunteer to triage bugs, feature requests and ideas (i.e. Ubuntu Brainstorm), according to the defined metrics; Ex: Allow community members to directly vote on any bugs, ideas, requests on LP to classify them according to the chosen metric. Current users will be directly influencing the future of the OS, expressing their opinions;

- Publish results, so the community (end-users, companies) can understand where Ubuntu is heading to and decide to adopt it, keep it, drop it, support it or not;

- Accept that the results of this metrics/triaging/classification task force would then be the official, public roadmap for Ubuntu in upcoming versions (not only 13.04); Formalize it as an ongoing process to guide Ubuntu development. Refine it;

- Focus on creating resources (material, media, classes, teams, groups, etc) to promote change in the direction users want. Teach current users how to contribute in any aspect of Ubuntu: From doc to code, testing and design. All aspects. Get rid of any barriers that keeps users from contributing to some parts of Ubuntu. Make it sustainable and organically pointed towards the expectations of its current users, therefore adequate to them, maintained by them. Facilitate and increase the flow of information.

Regards,
Effenberg

As a side note in the issue of performance, this is what I'm interested in right now:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA2NjQ
http://clang.debian.net/

It's hard to say how far we really are from it. It all depends on who will eventually join the efforts, fund it, how the technology itself will evolve, etc. But if you look exclusively to charts and benchmarks, we're talking about *huge* speed improvements here, system wide, kernel and userland.

Regards,
Effenberg

The thing, IMO, different about Ubuntu is that it isn't community-driven. It's largely the vision and aims of MSSABDFL that are being implemented. And I feel there's certainly nothing wrong with such an approach.

My feeling is that MSSABDFL wants to make the best use of modern technology to achieve his aims. Consequently, making things "backwardly" compatible may not be a priority. (How that will affect Ubuntu's share of the marketplace is unclear in the economic situation.)

I don't really subscribe to the "listen to the users" mantra for two reasons. First, MSSABDFL is implementing his vision and it's needless to say that it's quite a bit of his money in there. Second, user opinion is not "monolithic". Look at Mint. That's supposed to keep users' desires in mind. Just how many Minty flavors are there? Why?

I believe that innovation comes from the vision of one or a few people. I very much doubt innovation can occur by consensus or committee.

My vote is for Canonical freely doing what they want. We, equally, have the freedom to use what we want.

@ vasa 1

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The thing, IMO, different about Ubuntu is that it isn't community-driven. It's largely the vision and aims of MS that are being implemented.

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Quick glance and I read that as MS=MicroSoft...! lol.

Then I read it again and realised that they are not community driven either.
That in the early days the vison and aims of BG were being implemented.

....er, going away to think on that some more......

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Originally Posted by AllRadioisDead

My Windows 8 install boots faster than Ubuntu.

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Windows 8 is way faster than Ubuntu is. The only version of Ubuntu that ever came close to being incredibly fast was 10.04. My boot times on 10.04 were around 11 seconds. As of 12.04, it was over 40 seconds on the same hardware.

I'd say Windows 8 would be comparable to Xubuntu in terms of speed and performance.

Xubuntu = clean, slick, professional, extremely fast.
Windows 8 = clean, slick, professional, extremely fast.

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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

For those of us who don't play games, what exactly is the performance issue? I'm running Kubuntu 12.04, and I don't see what the fuss is about.

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You'll not see the same issue with Kubuntu and KDE as you perhaps might with Unity. I have run both very recently and they are both fast enough on my system. However KDE has some great options, one in particular tickbox allows you to suspend effects for fullscreen windows, a feature that Unity does not have. The result of this is that video and games tear and slow down when running fullscreen on Unity, where KDE, and even Gnome Shell and Cinnamon do not.

I'm sure I read on Launchpad somewhere though that the developers were aware of the problems and were fixing them.

Clang is from apple under a non-copy left license. Making all our development depend on it would be the most stupid move ever done ever.

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web browsing (Firefox)
email (Thunderbird)
shell sessions (local and remote via SSH)
office applications, primarily spreadsheets and documents (Open/LibreOffice)
audio (Clementine)
video (smplayer)
graphics (GIMP)
statistics (gretl)
VMs (VirtualBox)

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All these apps (except video and audio) run noticeably slower to me in non-2D unity than in 2D unity. I use VLC for multimedia and it also feels faster in unity-2D.

Edit: Just read that you use Kubuntu. Well DUH, this is about unity being too slow.

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From reading postings here over the past couple of years the things I think require the most work are:

suspend/resume
hybrid laptop graphics like Optimus
wifi drivers
installations that don't run afoul of nomodeset
transparent interoperability with phones and iThings
convenient multi-language support
residual audio problems with pulse/Jack
support for various peripherals like webcams, fingerprint readers, etc.
printer installation

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Most of these things come from mainstream. Ubuntu mostly just packages stuff and does interface tweaks and develops unity. So I think it makes sense that in regards to what canonical plans to do next, it would be far more useful for them to opimize performance rather than do what they would instead do (That is, most likely add new lenses to unity so that it is able to do even more things that a web browser can already do).

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While Ubuntu performance isn't on par with SUSE, Fedora, Arch, or Debian, it's still better than Windows... The Valve developers even admitted such.

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We don't have many details of how they tested.

"Ubuntu" itself is not bad for performance, I get great performance in games by running them from a single terminal without a desktop manager.

The issue is that the default desktop is too slow and comparatively slower than DEs that do the same sort of effects. (And this is a bad thing).

If Valve tested under a different DE than unity, then it does not say anything about whether we should improve unity or not.

(Actually, the main cultprit is not unity, it is compiz)

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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

For those of us who don't play games, what exactly is the performance issue?

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Gamers aren't the only ones that appreciate performance.

For example, I use several applications that run much much better when the performance is there: Blender, GIMP, Jack/Ardour and various simulation softwares. I can do more with better performance. These are some of the key applications that actually make this OS worthwhile running and can be brought up in the "you can't do anything on Linux" argument. From a newbie Windows user perspective: if they perform the same as on my Windows box, why bother going through the fuss of changing OS?

Another reason is old hardware. Nobody can argue that a better performing OS will have that P4 machine sticking around for longer. There's a whole ecoligical dimension to this too.

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Originally Posted by robert shearer

@ vasa 1

Quick glance and I read that as MS=MicroSoft...! lol.
...
....er, going away to think on that some more......

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Fixed.
Thinking can be injurious to health ;)

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Originally Posted by heminder

For example, I use several applications that run much much better when the performance is there: Blender, GIMP, Jack/Ardour and various simulation softwares. I can do more with better performance.

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I use GIMP and some other processor-intensive applications like gretl. Their performance has little to do with the issues the OP is concerned about. How fast it takes GIMP to rescale a large graphic, convert an image, etc., is largely a function of the CPU speed and the quality of the code in GIMP. Now perhaps something like Blender might be more affected because it needs access to the 3D libraries, but I presume anyone running Blender seriously already has some pretty hefty hardware to devote to this task.

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Originally Posted by vexorian

Edit: Just read that you use Kubuntu. Well DUH, this is about unity being too slow.

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So just how slow is it when I'm reading a web page or composing an email?

I'd still argue that Ubuntu will lose more people when they cannot get their wifi cards to work, or can't get things to display properly under something like Optimus, then they will by some performance issue in Unity. People use applications, not desktop environments, and not operating systems. The last two are just means to an end.

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Originally Posted by forrestcupp

I think they need to dedicate 13.04 to finding a new DE for default. :guitar:

They at least need to start working on getting rid of that old corroded Compiz. Compiz was awesome in its day, but then again, so was Windows 3.11. ;)

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I did not even like compiz in its day... it has always been a buggy piece of crap. If you want those type of effects, KWin does a far better job.

I think they should have went with Xfce or KDE as the default DE. Probably KDE as it would be easier to support a lot of the features they put into Unity (or already does). KDE is very customizable, but most distros leave it fairly stock, so there was lots of room for them to make it unique and stand out as a Ubuntu desktop.

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Originally Posted by AllRadioisDead

My Windows 8 install boots faster than Ubuntu.

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Boot speed does not equal performance...

But yes, Windows 8 does perform pretty well. In my experience, it's about the same as Ubuntu, and a bit slower than SUSE.

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Originally Posted by Mikeb85

Boot speed does not equal performance...

But yes, Windows 8 does perform pretty well. In my experience, it's about the same as Ubuntu, and a bit slower than SUSE.

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Well, Windows 8 does boot faster-but that is because of their partial shutdown. Essentially, it is really fast hibernation for certain files, the ones that take the longest. That is my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn

They're important issues, but most of what you listed are kernel issues. Ubuntu does very little work on the kernel, and there are major projects in place to improve driver support for the Linux kernel. It's not something that's going to be significantly impacted by a papercuts project or an Ubuntu development cycle.

I like your #2 idea, but I'm afraid the Ubuntu devs are going the other way and dropping support for alternate install.

For what it's worth, performance *should* improve over the next few releases. It took a hit in moving from GTK2 to GTK3, and with the switch to a composited window manager. Hardware will catch up to this, and FOSS video drivers are always improving. I don't see any similarly taxing changes coming in the near future to set it back again, but who knows?

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I know it is with the kernel, but the kernel developers should not be the only ones to write drivers. Such a large task for such few people.
If Canonical continues to build good relations with hardware manufacturers, they could get them to make drivers for older devices as well as new ones.
Also, they need to make sure that Apport is disabled by default-in 12.04, they left it on, and so my friend kept calling me "It said this program crashed. HELP!"

They should bring more support for Multi-Touch Screen and Automatic Screen Rotation for new and previous hybrid laptops.

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Originally Posted by Ubun2to

I know it is with the kernel, but the kernel developers should not be the only ones to write drivers.

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Um, if you write drivers you are a kernel developer by definition, since drivers go in the kernel.

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Such a large task for such few people.

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There are hundreds (thousands?) of people contributing to the kernel, not to mention many major corporations. There are probably more kernel developers than Canonical employees. So many that Linus has started telling people to go work on other open source projects, because the kernel has more than enough developers. The "Linux Drivers Project" (a special project dedicated solely to advancing Linux hardware support) itself boasts four hundred developers last time I checked.

See http://www.linuxdriverproject.org for more information on it.

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Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn

Um, if you write drivers you are a kernel developer by definition, since drivers go in the kernel.



There are hundreds (thousands?) of people contributing to the kernel, not to mention many major corporations. There are probably more kernel developers than Canonical employees. So many that Linus has started telling people to go work on other open source projects, because the kernel has more than enough developers. The "Linux Drivers Project" (a special project dedicated solely to advancing Linux hardware support) itself boasts four hundred developers last time I checked.

See http://www.linuxdriverproject.org for more information on it.

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I was talking about how many devices are still unsupported by comparison. Also, the jump from the current 3.2.0-30 kernel to the 3.5.0-14 kernel should bring in tons of new drivers.

I just did a fresh install of 12.10 on a desktop that was originally built on Hardy Heron. All the stuff accumulated over the years was slowing it down.

Now it boots in seconds and runs much faster than it did and is a rabbit compared to the W7 partition.

Seems there are a lot of bugs in general in ubuntu. Even general stuff shows lots of bugs. Wish Canonical could get a handle on this (performance I think is closely related).

Primarily why I only use LTS. I won't touch the 6-months