Illume, the new OpenMoko Interface

[LuisAugusto]

I know, I know, Openmoko has been out there for so long without doing anything spectacular that you probably already lost the interest and bought the iPhone or the G1.

That said. OpenMoko is an OS, not a cellphone per se, so you should check their new interface using e17 (finally the attention it deserved):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SGpH6WZEeQ

It's still alpha, but looking good. Bare in mind that you will be able to use it in the G1, or even the iPhone, or many other cellphones, not only in the freerunner.

[DeadSuperHero]

That looks great! And it's e17 based! I've always wondered how well it'd run on a mobile device!

[zmjjmz]

or even the iPhone

And the iPod Touch? I suppose it will need to be jailbroken.

[chucky chuckaluck]

that looked so good i made a vid cap my wallpaper.


(edit: though, i hate phones and i change my wallpaper every five minutes. still...)

[LuisAugusto]

Yeah, you could technically run it over the iPod Touch too, or a lot of other hardware devices which aren't necessarily a phone.

[loell]

wow, so this is what Carsten has been developing this past year :)

[zmjjmz]

Yeah, you could technically run it over the iPod Touch too, or a lot of other hardware devices which aren't necessarily a phone.

To be honest I just want that keyboard. I suppose there aren't any packags out there yet though.

Oh, and wouldn't it need X to run? Because I don't think the iPod Touch/iPhone has gotten X running yet.

[LuisAugusto]

To be honest I just want that keyboard. I suppose there aren't any packags out there yet though.

Oh, and wouldn't it need X to run? Because I don't think the iPod Touch/iPhone has gotten X running yet.

It won't run on top of OS X, it would run on top of Linux. Illume is an e17 module, openmoko is a Linux distro which uses e17 with Illume.

http://linuxoniphone.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-iphone-linux.html

[zmjjmz]

It won't run on top of OS X, it would run on top of Linux. Illume is an e17 module, openmoko is a Linux distro which uses e17 with Illume.

http://linuxoniphone.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-iphone-linux.html

So by the looks of it I'll need Linux on my iPod Touch to run Illume.
That would take quite a while.

[Swarms]

Why use that when there are a million times more developers on Android?

Its not like its particular slick or anything.

[smartboyathome]

I know, I know, Openmoko has been out there for so long without doing anything spectacular that you probably already lost the interest and bought the iPhone or the G1.

That said. OpenMoko is an OS, not a cellphone per se, so you should check their new interface using e17 (finally the attention it deserved):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SGpH6WZEeQ

It's still alpha, but looking good. Bare in mind that you will be able to use it in the G1, or even the iPhone, or many other cellphones, not only in the freerunner.

I like the new illume interface. I enjoy E17, and this is just icing on the cake.


It's still alpha,

EVERYTHING involved with E17 is still alpha. Its never really going to be stable, unfortunately. :(

[LuisAugusto]

EVERYTHING involved with E17 is still alpha. Its never really going to be stable, unfortunately. :(

So true XD


Why use that when there are a million times more developers on Android?

Its not like its particular slick or anything.

Because OpenMoko exited first. And, even tough what I showed was using OpenMoko, Illume could technically run on top of Android. And to be fair, Android interface isn't exactly amazing either, I found Illume to be fairly better...

[Swarms]

Because OpenMoko exited first. And, even tough what I showed was using OpenMoko, Illume could technically run on top of Android. And to be fair, Android interface isn't exactly amazing either, I found Illume to be fairly better...

It is not about what came first, but what is the best or are going to be which Android probably is when there many payed employees developing on it.

[DeadSuperHero]

It is not about what came first, but what is the best or are going to be which Android probably is when there many payed employees developing on it.

In a way, this is basically asking the same question as "Why do we have different Linux distributions?"

And the answer, is different ideals.

See, although the Android is Open Source, it isn't technically "Free Software". Google owns the rights to the Android, and developers haven't been given access to all of the low-level API's just yet.

I like the OpenMoko just for the fact that it gives us more choices of Linux-based devices to choose from, and it also applies a more GNU-compatible concept of Freedom.

[LuisAugusto]

It is not about what came first,

Of course it is, if they existed before they have more code to begin with, they already coded quite a lot, not to mention that their implementation of the GUI is completely different, what are they supposed to do? Throw all their code trough the window...


but what is the best or are going to be

Android isn't better than OpenMoko, the GUI implementation of Android is far more limited.


which Android probably is when there many payed employees developing on it.

Based on this argument Windows and Mac OS X are far better than Linux, because they have more "payed developers".

[Chame_Wizard]

With a pen i hope :lolflag:

[Swarms]

Of course it is, if they existed before they have more code to begin with, they already coded quite a lot, not to mention that their implementation of the GUI is completely different, what are they supposed to do? Throw all their code trough the window...

Judging on the speed the company behind the device was at producing anything (I don't say that they are sloppy, just that its a VERY HARD business to startup anything). And that their sales probably haven't been that big (it's still a small company) you can't expect that the mass of written code is massive.

No of course they should keep their code, but I believe in that people used their manhours in projects that would benefit more people e.g. Android. And like you said earlier, most of the code could probably be used with small modifications, not thrown out of the window.



Android isn't better than OpenMoko, the GUI implementation of Android is far more limited.

Then make it better, its still an easier way for more people to enjoy your code.



Based on this argument Windows and Mac OS X are far better than Linux, because they have more "payed developers".

I could not care less how the structures behind the scenes are, as a customer I just want an OS for my device that I am most satisfied with. For my laptop and upcoming MacBook its Ubuntu. I don't use it because it's open source but because I think its the operating system that fit my needs the best.

---


In a way, this is basically asking the same question as "Why do we have different Linux distributions?"

And the answer, is different ideals.

And this is basically the same question as "Why is the same work being made over and over again"?

Most Linux distributions are not about more choices, but people who wanted to reinvent the wheel. Its a very small selection that actually offers a different product that is complete.

This is not the case here, the projects are very different, but I do not see why this could not be done on the same platform for the users sake.

[LuisAugusto]

Judging on the speed the company behind the device was at producing anything (I don't say that they are sloppy, just that its a VERY HARD business to startup a business). And that their sales probably haven't been that big (it's still a small company) you can't expect that the mass of written code is massive.

It's a lot of code actually, many which will need to be completely rewrite for making part of Android..


Android. And like you said earlier, most of the code could probably be used with small modifications, not thrown out of the window. Then make it better, its still an easier way for more people to enjoy your code.

Why? In OpenMoko is already implemented :). And you misunderstood me, I didn't mean you would run Illume on top of Android, I meant you will be able to run OpenMoko with Illume in the G1. Tough, if somebody makes X work on Android it could be done there too, but that will mean, for the android developers, throwing their GUI , which they won't ;)


I could not care less how the structures behind the scenes are, as a customer I just want an OS for my device that I am most satisfied with. For my laptop and upcoming MacBook its Ubuntu. I don't use it because it's open source but because I think its the operating system that fit my needs the best.

Then don't use it as an argument ;)

[Swarms]

It's a lot of code actually, many which will need to be completely rewrite for making part of Android..


People should of course decide if they want to invest many hours developing on an OS that is hugely overshadowed by Android and not that many people are actually going to use. I just find it sad.



Why? In OpenMoko is already implemented :). And you misunderstood me, I didn't mean you would run Illume on top of Android, I meant you will be able to run OpenMoko with Illume in the G1. Tough, if somebody makes X work on Android it could be done there too, but that will mean, for the android developers, throwing their GUI , which they won't ;)

Do you mean dispose of their GUI? (My english skills are to blame, not yours) No of course they wont do that, but it is going to evolve and probably way faster than the OpenMoko platform or Illume ever could (due to sheer amount of developers).


Then don't use it as an argument ;)

Haha you got me there :), but my point was that open source or not is not the question for me, but what platform is being most actively developed and has the potential to become the best. And since Android is fueled by business, its is probably going to be it.

Note: I probably don't have as much knowledge as many of you, so please enlighten me. :P

[geoken]

IMO, the fact that OpenMoko was around first would probably dissuade me from using it. The only reason it hasn't come to fruition yet is the numerous fundamental changes. That doesn't sound appealing in an OS that you want to be extremely flawless (I have a lot more tolerance for bugs in a desktop OS than a phone OS).

[LuisAugusto]

People should of course decide if they want to invest many hours developing on an OS that is hugely overshadowed by Android and not that many people are actually going to use. I just find it sad.

Welcome to the cruel reality of development :)



Do you mean dispose of their GUI? (My english skills are to blame, not yours) No of course they wont do that, but it is going to evolve and probably way faster than the OpenMoko platform or Illume ever could (due to sheer amount of developers).

Android doesn't use X and Illume needs X. You can't mix them without making big modifications in, either, Android GUI or Illume GUI.



Haha you got me there :), but my point was that open source or not is not the question for me, but what platform is being most actively developed and has the potential to become the best. And since Android is fueled by business, its is probably going to be it.

Note: I probably don't have as much knowledge as many of you, so please enlighten me. :P

OpenMoko developers are just using an implementation they think will be better in the future (because it is, in many regards, better), same with Android devs (since it's better in many regards too).

[zmjjmz]

Android doesn't use X and Illume needs X. You can't mix them without making big modifications in, either, Android GUI or Illume GUI.


Although I don't agree that this (Illume on an OpenMoko) is a pointless exercise, what's going to stop someone from developing a similar UI?

[LuisAugusto]

Although I don't agree that this (Illume on an OpenMoko) is a pointless exercise, what's going to stop someone from developing a similar UI?

What going to stop who from developing a similar GUI? Both of them can make similars GUIs but implemented in a completely different way. Since OpenMoko uses X (which sucks, to be fair*) they have a lot more flexibility, since almost all apps in Linux use X.



* I hope wayland (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=xorg_wayland&num=1) to be implemented faster than many think x_x

[Swarms]

Welcome to the cruel reality of development :)


That is their choice not mine. :)




Android doesn't use X and Illume needs X. You can't mix them without making big modifications in, either, Android GUI or Illume GUI.

I am not saying that Android will adopt the GUI tomorrow, but nothing stands in its way to move towards it.




OpenMoko developers are just using an implementation they think will be better in the future (because it is, in many regards, better), same with Android devs (since it's better in many regards too).

Yeah that is a thing I would never know anything about.

But Luis, do you prefer Illume to Android?

[loell]

Android isn't better than OpenMoko, the GUI implementation of Android is far more limited.

+1

the decision by openmoko to use e17 as their base toolkit is a good one. it's a long shot given that many e17 components are even considered alpha. and it might even wait for proper rendering acceleration. but it should all be worth it.

think of android Vs openmoko as Gecko Vs Webkit its common denominator is optimization , where nobody wins and no one looses. :)

[LuisAugusto]

But Luis, do you prefer Illume to Android?

I do.

Not based on the current state, since Android is 100% usable right now, but based on what they can ultimately achieve in a middle time run. Illume is far more flexible and less limited.

[smartboyathome]

it's a long shot given that many e17 components are even considered alpha.

Most of E17 (besides one toolkit which was recently stabilized), is considered pre-alpha quality, and in fact you'd pretty much have to take a snapshot of the SVN and bugfix it to death to get anything stable, which would mean forking and thus a division of community (something I wouldn't like to see).


and it might even wait for proper rendering acceleration.

Proper acceleration, as in compositing? If so, then that will be put on hold until E18, since Raster wants to wait until drivers have better compositing support.

[LuisAugusto]

Most of E17 (besides one toolkit which was recently stabilized), is considered pre-alpha quality, and in fact you'd pretty much have to take a snapshot of the SVN and bugfix it to death to get anything stable, which would mean forking and thus a division of community (something I wouldn't like to see).

I dunno about e17 current state (the last I used it was like a year ago), but it was quite stable back then. Even if Raster said it's pre-alpha quality (he's quite perfectionist)


Proper acceleration, as in compositing? If so, then that will be put on hold until E18, since Raster wants to wait until drivers have better compositing support.

Yes, but ecomoprh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gDEiJpBwI) brought composite (Compiz) to e17 (and bling before it).

[loell]

Proper acceleration, as in compositing? If so, then that will be put on hold until E18, since Raster wants to wait until drivers have better compositing support.

yeah that one. but E18!?.. I just hope he's not yet dead by then. :lolflag:

[smartboyathome]

I dunno about e17 current state (the last I used it was like a year ago), but it was quite stable back then. Even if Raster said it's pre-alpha quality (he's quite perfectionist)

This is true, but E17 has many breaks, so it can be stable one day, broken the next. In fact, we recently had a couple breaks in SVN.


Yes, but ecomoprh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gDEiJpBwI) brought composite (Compiz) to e17 (and bling before it).

Ecomorph is pretty much dead now though, and never did really work too well. Bling works still, but its pretty featureless and buggy.


yeah that one. but E18!?.. I just hope he's not yet dead by then. :lolflag:

Me, too. ;)

[LuisAugusto]

This is true, but E17 has many breaks, so it can be stable one day, broken the next. In fact, we recently had a couple breaks in SVN.



Ecomorph is pretty much dead now though, and never did really work too well. Bling works still, but its pretty featureless and buggy.



Me, too. ;)

You're right :) Now that I think about it, most of the time it was perfectly stable, others it was hell.

I didn't know ecomorph was dead :( Bling sucked, it was a lot better to use just xcompmgr or kcompmgr. Wasn't it being developed by the same guy of itask and detour?

I feel like installing e17 again, it was my main desktop for around a year, then I passed to other window manager, ion3, then returned to e17 all they way up to KDE, but those 2 (KDE and e17) are my favorite projects.