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aysiu
December 5th, 2005, 04:01 AM
I may be naive. I may not understand all the issues involved. And, obviously, I can't implement this myself, but if it were to be implemented, could it work?

This is what I'm thinking: Why not have a hardware company sell Ubuntu-preinstalled computers? Rather than waiting around for HP, Dell, and the like to get around or out of their OEM agreements with Microsoft to have Windows XP preinstalled on all their home computers, wouldn't it be possible (and viable, more importantly), for a business to be dedicated both to hardware and software (Ubuntu specifically) the way Apple has integrated hardware and software?

Do you get what I'm saying? Has this been tried before? If so, what company? If you don't think it'd work, why not? If you do think it'd work... what company would do this? Canonical?

MetalMusicAddict
December 5th, 2005, 04:25 AM
I think if Canonical were to do it it would be with their newly aquired Impilinux.
I think it would be Impi because I remember hearing it will be Ubuntu based but include all the non-free stuff like codecs. Less hassle for the user. Kinda like RH and FC now.

Ide but it if the design of the PCs were as slick as Apple.

Funny. The site is gone with just a little placeholder.

aysiu
December 5th, 2005, 04:40 AM
I've been thinking about it a lot lately, believe it or not.

People argue a lot about problems with Linux (not enough third-party support, not the right software, not "easy" enough, blah blah blah).

If you stop the average Jane or Joe on the street and say, "Why do you use Windows and not Linux for your desktop or notebook computer?" I'm guessing that the vast majority (at least 60%, if not more) will not say something like "Yeah, I tried installing SuSE, and it just wouldn't recognize my sound card" or "Linux distros are quite capable now, but I prefer iTunes to AmaroK." Again, just guessing, but I think most of them will say, "What? Is that a new version of Mac?" or "I use Windows XP. Is Linux that new version?"

People don't choose to use Windows usually. The average Jane or Joe goes into Best Buy or CompUSA or even Costco. and looks to see what's available preinstalled.

Right now, if I'm understanding things correctly, Dell, HP, and others cannot preinstall Linux distros on their home consumer computers because of some discount/monopoly agreement with Microsoft.

But what if we didn't need Dell or HP (at least at first)? What if some hardware company was dedicated to preinstalling Linux and somehow getting those computers into Best Buy or CompUSA?

endersshadow
December 5th, 2005, 05:33 AM
The problem with this is that the system would be more expensive than one with preinstalled Windows, because of quantitative discounts to Dell, etc. on hardware. Microsoft wouldn't sell to one of those companies if they migrated to Ubuntu installations, though. Quite a problem...

aysiu
December 5th, 2005, 05:52 AM
So you're saying a new company (not Dell or HP) would charge you more for a computer with a free OS than Dell or HP would charge for a computer with Windows preinstalled... even at a discount?

I'm not sure I understand.

Lovechild
December 5th, 2005, 06:01 AM
I've been thinking about somrthing along these lines, my local computer store is very succesful, and they have recently started selling their own brand of laptops - now they ship without an OS default. How cool would it be if in cooperation with Cononical it could be assured that their laptops are 100% Ubuntu compatible and ship with Ubuntu out of the box.

aysiu
December 5th, 2005, 06:09 AM
Even with the assumption that computer + free OS might somehow be more expensive than computer + costly OS at a bulk discount, there may be ways around that.

First of all, Apple computers are more expensive than Windows computers right now, especially if we're talking eMachines (I know this is actually a point of contention with Mac advocates, but the widespread public perception is that Macs are more expensive, regardless of how true it is). People still buy Macs, though, for the cool factor and the stability.

If Ubuntu had an angle, people wouldn't care if it seemed a little more expensive at first. I would imagine it would be that it includes productivity software out of the box (office suite, graphics editing, archiving, cd burner) and no need for anti-virus software.

Of course, I can't imagine a truly free version of Ubuntu being successful, even preinstalled. Proprietary formats dominate right now, and Ogg just won't cut it for people who mostly use iPods and not iRivers. Hm.

poofyhairguy
December 5th, 2005, 06:18 AM
So you're saying a new company (not Dell or HP) would charge you more for a computer with a free OS than Dell or HP would charge for a computer with Windows preinstalled... even at a discount?

I'm not sure I understand.

Dell and HP get nice fat discounts from Intel/MS/etc. for their systems, espcially the lowend. Dell especially has a system where for almost any system they can throw in a monitor and printer "for free." Its hard to beat them at the lowend, really hard. And once you get past Dell, then you have to deal with the Linspire prices:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3504708&cat=179113&type=19&dept=3944

I see these systems at Fry's locally.

The best way to go about thing would be to sell "premium systems" and try not compete for "family's first PC" or something. Have cool cases and make sure EVERY part is open source compatible. Empperor Linux does this with laptops:

http://www.emperorlinux.com/

So yeah, if you went the premium Apple path it might work. But then you have to worry about marketing and other issues. The computer hardware business is very cut throat.

The best way to do it would be to sell a more premium items. But then you have to worry about codec issues! And Java and ......it would be hard.

I want to buy one of those supported HP laptops though.

endersshadow
December 5th, 2005, 06:51 AM
So you're saying a new company (not Dell or HP) would charge you more for a computer with a free OS than Dell or HP would charge for a computer with Windows preinstalled... even at a discount?

I'm not sure I understand.

Retail markup for hardware is ridiculous, and the assemblers get it at so low of prices because of the amount of volume they buy. Windows itself is also practically given to Dell. Microsoft makes about a 90% contribution margin on a retail copy of software, and that's just to a store like Best Buy, not to you or me. That's an amazing amount of profit.

The way Dell operates, there's no way that any manufacturer could be as cheap even with a free OS. Granted, the total cost (i.e.-Office, etc.) would be cheaper, but people only see immediate costs, I'm afraid :?

poptones
December 5th, 2005, 08:03 AM
It's not direct costs that offset the markups, it's sponsorship deals. When one of the biggies makes one of those special offers it's not because they're footing the bill. A great example is printers: why does Dell give you a printer? Because H-P wants to sell printer ink cartridges and they work out a deal to "give" printers to Dell customers. The same thing applies to software like Photoshop elements: Adobe gets name recognition, but H-P absorbs the cost because if it's easy for you to print your digital camera photos you're going to use more expensive color H-P ink cartridges and expensive H-P photo print paper.

More profit is made in retail on consumables than equipment. The margins are really narrow on systems - the whole system is designed to make its profit on the backend: warranties, consumables, service, software and upgrades. Call any one of these vendors for support and just dare to get off the phone without getting a sales pitch from the tech!

I spent a few hours yesterday downloading and compiling the dependancies needed to install the latest gstreamer. Now, with a hoary system running glib2.8 and all the bells and whistles, I still cannot play my ripped cds without "music player" sticking a gap between every track.

There is no linux version of photoshop elements, and gimp's interface is even more intimidating than photoshop.

I've been struggling with a pixmap theme because the changes I apply to certain widgets don't seem to work no matter what. I've been pulling my hair out over the simple task of setting the text color in a combobox widget and finally, after hous of googling, discovered this has been a known bug in the pixmap engine since its very inception. I don't see it in bugzilla nor is it mentioned in any documentation - but that could be because there's virtually zero proper documentation on theming anyway.

It's these thousand little ways linux isn't finished that prevents it from competing on the higher end. It would certainly be possible to create a single coherent desktop where everything works as intended, but as things are now the instant the user added anything new the cracks would start showing up.

Not that any of this matters, since linux was never meant to "compete" in this fashion; There's already an Apple computer and a Microsoft.

MetalMusicAddict
December 5th, 2005, 11:42 PM
I gave a look to EmperorLinux (http://www.emperorlinux.com/) and what they offer is nice. I cant see though what they add to the distros that would make me buy it from them rather than directly from HP, Dell or even Ebay and wipe windows.

Looks like the "The Rhino" form EmperorLinux is $3800 and the same Dell from Dell is about $2600. Unless Im wrong I dont mind going through a install myself to save the money. Would'nt see how someone more linux savy would either.

I do agree that someone would have to do this on the higher-end but I would rather it in their own wrapping. Not just something rebadged. Imagine a nice Apple-ish laptop with a glowing Ubuntu logo on the lid. :)

Am I/we crazy to think Canonical could do this? I would buy one in a year or two when some of the newier eyecandy stuff like xorg7 matured.

aysiu
January 7th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Koobox seems to have reasonably competitive prices. If I were to buy a Koobox, though, I'd probably stick Ubuntu on it--Linspire just doesn't do it for me.

http://www.koobox.com/

awakatanka
January 7th, 2006, 05:14 PM
Who are going to do the support? Most cost are in support. If something can't be installed they will call the people that sold the product.
People that doesn't know much are also not easly find community boards for help.

If you preinstall it you also need to educate people there are almost none books that are for the average user that tells them how that distro works and where to find more info.

Walk in a bookstore and you find lots of windows books for noobs. ( atleast in holland ). Never saw 1 for a distro.

aysiu
January 7th, 2006, 05:18 PM
Walk in a bookstore and you find lots of windows books for noobs. ( atleast in holland ). Never saw 1 for a distro. Really? In America, there are Linux books everywhere. Most of them are for Red Hat or Fedora, but there are also books for Mandriva, Knoppix, and Mepis.

I'd also say the support for Linspire is pretty good because you pay for it, and the support for Ubuntu (on these forums) is unparalleled.

Personally, I've never called eMachines, Microsoft, or Canonical for support.
When my mom has problems with her computer, she calls my dad.
When my parents-in-law have problems with their computer, they call my wife.
At work, people call me for help (even though I'm not officially tech support)--they don't call Microsoft or Dell.

awakatanka
January 7th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Really? In America, there are Linux books everywhere. Most of them are for Red Hat or Fedora, but there are also books for Mandriva, Knoppix, and Mepis.
The books that i saw where more for geeks then for noobs here. Over here you got a realy good book for senior users ( windows ) that tell them step by step what all things do. i recommend them mostly to new users our users that are not knowing. I would like to find a book like that for a distro here in holland. I would promote it then a little more.

I work in support and repairs so it could be good for my work to. But education is also needed and books will help with that.

Those books also sold on internet? maybe i can order some to read it, always eager to learn new things.

lotusleaf
January 7th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Amid the various Google rumors, I wish Google would release a low-cost Linux based PC. Surely more devices would receive drivers were this to happen.

chimera
January 7th, 2006, 06:16 PM
If the hardware companies have an agreement with microsoft to install windows XP and Linux on their PCs and dual-boot? Although it's not a complete solution, it would help to atleast introduce Linux to people...

aysiu
January 7th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Those books also sold on internet? maybe i can order some to read it, always eager to learn new things. I read these all at Borders (a major chain in the US--I think it has international locations as well... unfortunately none in Holland (http://www.borderstores.com/locator/sl_results.jsp?intl=1)), but they're also available online:

Linux for Non-Geeks (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593270348/qid=1136654973/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5591277-8644161?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)
Linux Desktop Garage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131494198/qid=1136654992/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5591277-8644161?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)
Point-and-Click Linux (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131488724/qid=1136655002/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5591277-8644161?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)

And, to be released soon, Beginning Ubuntu Linux: From Novice to Professional (Beginning, from Novice to Professional) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596277/qid=1136655077/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-5591277-8644161?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

Do you know if the UK (or even US) Amazon ships to Holland?


I would contend, though, that most truly novice users do not read books to solve computer problems--they go to their "computer expert" friend or relative--at least that's been my experience.

And when the "computer experts" (my wife and I, for our friends and relatives) don't know the answer, we search the internet.

awakatanka
January 7th, 2006, 08:41 PM
I read these all at Borders (a major chain in the US--I think it has international locations as well... unfortunately none in Holland (http://www.borderstores.com/locator/sl_results.jsp?intl=1)), but they're also available online:

Linux for Non-Geeks (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593270348/qid=1136654973/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5591277-8644161?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)
Linux Desktop Garage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131494198/qid=1136654992/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5591277-8644161?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)
Point-and-Click Linux (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131488724/qid=1136655002/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5591277-8644161?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)

And, to be released soon, Beginning Ubuntu Linux: From Novice to Professional (Beginning, from Novice to Professional) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596277/qid=1136655077/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-5591277-8644161?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

Do you know if the UK (or even US) Amazon ships to Holland?


I would contend, though, that most truly novice users do not read books to solve computer problems--they go to their "computer expert" friend or relative--at least that's been my experience.

And when the "computer experts" (my wife and I, for our friends and relatives) don't know the answer, we search the internet.I mostly try to educate my costumers, Its a good advertising to for me, because they feel i listen to them and try to improve there behavior. But most people also don't speak english so english books are out of the question for them. But i need also a lot of learning in linux desktops before i can recommend them and solve there issue's.

If its preinstalled and the costumers don't buy/try new software/hardware all desktop OS are ready, but my experince with people is that they always try more then good is for them.

But reading the forums of more distro's i get more the feeling that some linux users don't want that new/windows people going to use it because they afraid of something i can't understand.

mstlyevil
January 7th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I mostly try to educate my costumers, Its a good advertising to for me, because they feel i listen to them and try to improve there behavior. But most people also don't speak english so english books are out of the question for them. But i need also a lot of learning in linux desktops before i can recommend them and solve there issue's.

If its preinstalled and the costumers don't buy/try new software/hardware all desktop OS are ready, but my experince with people is that they always try more then good is for them.

But reading the forums of more distro's i get more the feeling that some linux users don't want that new/windows people going to use it because they afraid of something i can't understand.

I think they are afraid new users will want it to imitate Windows so much that they will lose the ability to use advanced features and the command line. I really believe they are worrying to much about this because Linux will always cater to the advanced user first.

earobinson
January 7th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Amid the various Google rumors, I wish Google would release a low-cost Linux based PC. Surely more devices would receive drivers were this to happen.
yup we need a company like google to step in and kick some ass for open standards.

I really find it suprising that dell and such dont put more money into linux because. more money for linux = beter linux = one less cost for dell = more money.

Malphas
January 7th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Although I mostly agree with this idea, I think the next step is for Linux to become more prevalent on the corporate desktop. Once non-IT workers in offices get accustomed to Linux/gnome/KDE they'll be far more likely to feel comfortable with Linux as the OS on their home PCs, opening the way (and possibly increasing demand) for vendors to sell machines pre-installed with distributions like Ubuntu. I suspect this same trickling effect may have been partially responsible for the success of DOS and Windows.

earobinson
January 7th, 2006, 10:35 PM
see but there is no reason for IT to switch that requires retraining people. IMO linux needs to spread on the home desktops before it can spread in the corprate world.

Malphas
January 7th, 2006, 11:16 PM
That's FUD nonsense and in direct opposition to what's actually happening in reality. The savings and benefits made by switching to Linux can far outweight the cost of retraining.

BSDFreak
January 7th, 2006, 11:32 PM
Who are going to do the support? Most cost are in support. If something can't be installed they will call the people that sold the product.
People that doesn't know much are also not easly find community boards for help.

If you preinstall it you also need to educate people there are almost none books that are for the average user that tells them how that distro works and where to find more info.

Walk in a bookstore and you find lots of windows books for noobs. ( atleast in holland ). Never saw 1 for a distro.

Holland most be very special then because we have lots in Sweden and there are plenty in Germany too.

poofyhairguy
January 7th, 2006, 11:34 PM
But reading the forums of more distro's i get more the feeling that some linux users don't want that new/windows people going to use it because they afraid of something i can't understand.

I don't think thats a fair assessment. I think the attitude is more like "if they want to use it fine. If they don't then fine. Not my problem and I'm not going to make it easier for them."

Many in the community are sick of trying to accomidate new users with many high demands. Anyone would after years of hear/reading that Linux is not ready to be used by normal people because its a bad Windows....

But fear? I have been to many forums and I have sensed no fear. Except maybe the fear here of another thread of whats wrong with Ubuntu that we all know I will have to put in the backyard eventually.

BSDFreak
January 7th, 2006, 11:38 PM
I mostly try to educate my costumers, Its a good advertising to for me, because they feel i listen to them and try to improve there behavior. But most people also don't speak english so english books are out of the question for them. But i need also a lot of learning in linux desktops before i can recommend them and solve there issue's.

If its preinstalled and the costumers don't buy/try new software/hardware all desktop OS are ready, but my experince with people is that they always try more then good is for them.

But reading the forums of more distro's i get more the feeling that some linux users don't want that new/windows people going to use it because they afraid of something i can't understand.

Personally i couldn't care less who uses it besides me if they aren't going to contribute, if they are then of course it is positive.

It's just that Linux isn't Windows and it will never be Windows, new users have a hard time understanding why it isn't Windows for some reason that *i* do not understand.

Such users will get the response "if you want Windows, use Windows", and it's the best advice i can give them.

I wouldn't buy a computer with preinstalled Linux simply because i will need to buy Windows so my son can play Need for speed Most Wanted anyway, if i can get a computer with Windows preinstalled i will consider the added value in that. (i'll still download and run OpenBSD/DragonflyBSD and/or some Linux Distro).

earobinson
January 8th, 2006, 01:00 AM
That's FUD nonsense and in direct opposition to what's actually happening in reality. The savings and benefits made by switching to Linux can far outweight the cost of retraining.
ya I understand that and im with you on that. But thats what companies are scaird of. I think the trick would be to slowly move them over by starting them off with programs like open office before going all the way to linux

aysiu
March 8th, 2006, 02:18 AM
Did anyone read this latest interview with Michael Dell (http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.html) about Linux on Dell desktops? Who's ever heard of this n-series? No one I know in real life. I happened to find them once because I was deliberately scouring around to find a non-Windows Dell computer once.

Well, Dell's not going to lead the way to desktop Linux--that's for sure.

zachtib
March 8th, 2006, 03:20 AM
www.system76.com sells pc's with ubuntu preinstalled

Bandit
March 8th, 2006, 03:58 AM
I may be naive. I may not understand all the issues involved. And, obviously, I can't implement this myself, but if it were to be implemented, could it work?

This is what I'm thinking: Why not have a hardware company sell Ubuntu-preinstalled computers? Rather than waiting around for HP, Dell, and the like to get around or out of their OEM agreements with Microsoft to have Windows XP preinstalled on all their home computers, wouldn't it be possible (and viable, more importantly), for a business to be dedicated both to hardware and software (Ubuntu specifically) the way Apple has integrated hardware and software?

Do you get what I'm saying? Has this been tried before? If so, what company? If you don't think it'd work, why not? If you do think it'd work... what company would do this? Canonical?
Hey nothing wrong with that. I plan on having a PC shop and the main OS will be a customized version of Ubuntu.

Bandit
March 8th, 2006, 03:59 AM
That's FUD nonsense and in direct opposition to what's actually happening in reality. The savings and benefits made by switching to Linux can far outweight the cost of retraining.
I agree, esp when you tell them to learn it of be fired!!!

3rdalbum
March 8th, 2006, 05:49 AM
Retraining, schmetraining. For people who won't need to have administrator access, Ubuntu is enough like Windows that you only need to use it for an hour to get comfortable.

Companies could buy the IT guy a book about Linux, give him/her a computer to play around with for a few hours, and bam, there's your training.

vayu
March 8th, 2006, 09:56 AM
Retraining, schmetraining. For people who won't need to have administrator access, Ubuntu is enough like Windows that you only need to use it for an hour to get comfortable.

Companies could buy the IT guy a book about Linux, give him/her a computer to play around with for a few hours, and bam, there's your training.

On top of that windows requires retraining on a regular basis because they are always making old products obsolete so you have to buy their new products.

Stormy Eyes
March 8th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Companies could buy the IT guy a book about Linux, give him/her a computer to play around with for a few hours, and bam, there's your training.

That's the kind of training I like: Gimme the manual and get outta my way.

bjweeks
March 8th, 2006, 03:09 PM
Linux compatible =

nVidia motherboard
nVidia video card
hardware soundcard

Stormy Eyes
March 8th, 2006, 03:28 PM
Linux compatible =

nVidia motherboard
nVidia video card
hardware soundcard

You forget hardware modem, for people stuck with dialup. I recommend US Robotics model 5610.

Bandit
March 8th, 2006, 03:45 PM
You forget hardware modem, for people stuck with dialup. I recommend US Robotics model 5610.
5610, I have to right that down. I am moving in few months and will be stuck with dail-up for a few months until I get settled in...

Stormy Eyes
March 8th, 2006, 03:50 PM
5610, I have to right that down. I am moving in few months and will be stuck with dail-up for a few months until I get settled in...

Model 5610 is an internal modem. You handy with a screwdriver?

earobinson
March 8th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Did anyone read this latest interview with Michael Dell (http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.html) about Linux on Dell desktops? Who's ever heard of this n-series? No one I know in real life. I happened to find them once because I was deliberately scouring around to find a non-Windows Dell computer once.

Well, Dell's not going to lead the way to desktop Linux--that's for sure.
problem is if companies like dell start supporting linux MS would get mad at them and stop cutting them the sweet deals

ssam
March 8th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Mr. Dell opens up about Desktop Linux (http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.html).

an article about buying dell machines desinged for linux, without windows installed.