Linux vs Windows vs W/E

[prizrak]

I know you are all thinking "damn another one?". Well this thread is a little different, I decided to create it because I saw alot of threads like that and thought that it would be cool if we only had one "Official" one that is stickied (pending aproval from enough community members) so that people would only post here. The idea was actually brought upon by Anatomy of a Well Intentioned (accidental?) Linux Troll (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017). I actually thought it would be a good thing to kind of address the most common "Trolling" issues here.

- First and foremost what people need to remember is that Linux is not Windows. It is developed using a completely different ideology. It does not have a GUI for everything, and it doesn't need one, the only time a GUI is written is if there is a demand for it.

- Now a number of users have been posting about certain features they would like or something that Ubuntu or Linux in general is lacking. The problem with it is that the forums are not the place to do that, while the developers do peak around the forums once in a while the official channels are bugzilla or any other bug tracking system they decide to go with. The feature requests can and should be submitted there.

- Another thing is that every distribution (flavor) of Linux has it's own phylosophy that it follows. When people come in saying that there is a problem there and there because such and such isn't working like expected/wanted by the user, alot of time the response is that there is a different distribution there that would suite their tastes better. This makes the users feel like no one cares about what they are saying, on the contrary there are 371 supported Linux distros (source: www.linux.org) which gives the beauty of choice (what Linux is all about) so instead of asking us to change something in our distribution (that is being developed with a certain goal in mind) you might want to try something else. There is actually a little questionaire that will match you with a distro based on your responses but I can't find it at the moment. Try going to a Gentoo forum and suggesting to use binaries see how long that lasts :)

- Another important thing to remember is that. especially power Windows users, will have a learning curve. The power users are the ones with the most problem, because they are very proficient with the OS they have used for years, which means they have to unlearn w/e it was they learned and learn a completely new OS. The key here is to keep an open mind, and try things. When about a year ago I decided to learn to rollerblade it was very frustrating that it wasn't just like riding a bike, and trust me it hurt alot more to learn to do that than a new OS :p

- The last point I would like to make is that there are different needs and different OS's work for different people. So if Ubuntu or Linux in general do not suit you, and you come to vent your frustrations to the forum don't expect a constructive response, the response you will get will be "Ubuntu/Linux is not for you" and it is a valid response. Also please understand that Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular are still developing. The 5.10 Breezy Badger release is not the last one. If something doesn't work the way you expect it or there was a feature you wanted it might be comming in the next release so be patient, grab a Live CD, try it out, if you still don't like it/it doesn't do what you want you might want to consider switching to something else. Absolute final thing to say is, you might think you are helping by telling the community what the distribution lacks, you are not, you are taking up the time that we could be using on solving actual problems. If you are intersted in Linux and have programming or design or w/e skills that could help, join the designers and help them make the features you want, that's what Open Source is all about.

P.S. 99% of the users here do not hate ANY operating system, but we do PREFER Ubuntu or Linux in general to others (which is why we are part of the community) alot of us had bad experiences with the OS's we switched from so we might be a little biased but we do not hate them. So please, don't come here looking for a fight or to vent your frustrations, please internalize what is said in this post and judge things accordingly if you are having a problem we are ALWAYS here to help. Happy Ubunting :)

[23meg]

Your last point deserves further stressing, after some recent distro fanboy trolling on the forums; people shouldn't come here looking for a childish fight over which distro is better, simply because noone will be interested in that here and they'll only make themselves look bad. If anyone wants to go into that kind of thing there are other well known places on the net where it can be done with greater efficiency; here you'll most likely just get ignored.

So let me have taken this chance to once again request everyone who frequents these forums to ignore the trolls and the blind bashers, no matter what they're trolling about and what they're bashing. Anyone who wants to make a case and be taken seriously has to come up in the appropriate mature manner, period.

[xequence]

To me, Linux and Windows both are worthy desktop OSes. They both can get the job done, though some things work better on a certain one.

Each has its bad points, and each has its good points.

In ubuntu I like the fact its secure and you dont need to worry about viruses. What I dont like is the fact that even though you do have 16,000 things in the repos, there is still a lack of programs. Also it is hard and bothersome to have to compile your own software if it isnt in the repos.

In windows I like the fact that almost every program ever made works with it. Take for example UT99. It can be installed on ubuntu and windows, but in windows you just put in the CD and have it pop up, then you click next a couple times and its done. In ubuntu, and linux in general, you have to go through a whole bunch of commands and scripts. Something bad about windows is you might have to use an antivirus. To me, norton antivirus acts extremly like a virus. It INSISTS on having some protection center thing on all the time, telling me to scan and turn auto protect on. Also windows, with the registry, gets the performance degraded ALOT over time.

[GreyFox503]

I liked your point about having many different distro choices. I've seen several new users who have a Windows mindset try to generalize about Linux based on one distro. But of course they would think that, because Windows is so monolithic, that if something does or does not work in it, it applies to all other copies of Windows. Example:

Friend: "What are you using?"
Me: "Ubuntu. It's a free linux distribution."
Friend: "Why can't you play MP3/DVD/whatever?"
Me: "Ubuntu's philosophy emphasizes being free, so they don't include proprietary codecs in the OS. But it's not hard to get them yourself."
Friend: "I don't like the start menu. It's at the top and looks weird."
Me: "That's part of Gnome, my desktop environment. It's very customizable, and there are many other GUIs to choose from."

Just from this conversation, my friend is thinking "Linux" sucks because it can't play MP3s and it uses Gnome. He doesn't know any better, and its hard to show people how they can almost certainly find a distro that caters to their own needs/philosophy.

People have no idea how different so many computers can look that all run linux. They're not used to that kind of choice. Choice for a windows user usually means blue, silver, or ugly green. (The 3 theme colors in XP)

[prizrak]

I have finally been able to locate the test that matches you with the distro you want (that's how I found out and tried Ubuntu, it was a perfect fit ^_^) it is located here http://eedok.voidofmind.com/linux/chooser.html

[aysiu]

I actually think your post was really just my well-intentioned troll but rephrased. However, you did phrase it quite well, so I really can't complain.

That said, I don't know if I agree 100% with this statement
you might think you are helping by telling the community what the distribution lacks, you are not, you are taking up the time that we could be using on solving actual problems. If people want to solve problems, they won't waste time arguing with trolls. Or if they have a lot of time, they can do both (solve problems and argue with trolls). As you said before, developers don't hang out at the forums, so trolls coming here doesn't impede development. They also don't help the development of Ubuntu either, which I can definitely agree with you on.


I have finally been able to locate the test that matches you with the distro you want (that's how I found out and tried Ubuntu, it was a perfect fit ^_^) it is located here http://eedok.voidofmind.com/linux/chooser.html This one's not too bad either:

http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/

[prizrak]

I actually think your post was really just my well-intentioned troll but rephrased. However, you did phrase it quite well, so I really can't complain.
Well it was sorta meant to be a derivative of that, which is why I referenced your post. I really just tried to create some kind of posting rules type thing. ^_^

[bwog]

When this is about posting rules, I would like to add that rants and trolls should be moved to the chat forum. The other forum sections are for questions.

[aysiu]

When this is about posting rules, I would like to add that rants and trolls should be moved to the chat forum. The other forum sections are for questions. Isn't that what the practice already is? If I see questions, I put them in support. If I see rants, I put them in Community Chat. If I see trolls, I put them in the Backyard.

[Malphas]

Isn't "well-intentioned troll" an oxymoron? Although the term "troll" itself has become practically meaningless these days anyway.

[aysiu]

Isn't "well-intentioned troll" an oxymoron? It may be, depending on what you consider a troll. I was thinking more of trolling behavior than trolling intentions.


Although the term "troll" itself has become practically meaningless these days anyway. Unfortunately, you may be right:
The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument ad hominem. Likewise, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives that may be incorrect. Regardless of the writer's motives, controversial posts are likely to attract a corrective or patronizing or outraged response by those who do not distinguish between real physical community (where people are actually exposed to some shared risk of bodily harm by their actions), and epistemic community (based on a mere exchange of words and ideas). Customs of discourse, or etiquette, originating in physical communities are often applied naively to online discourse by newcomers who are not used to the range of views expressed online, often anonymously. Hence, both users and posts are commonly, and sometimes inaccurately, labelled as trolls when their content upsets people. Also, people may be more inclined to use epithets like troll in online public discussion than they would be in person, because online forums may seem more impersonal. "Please do not feed the troll" images are meant to tell others not to encourage trolls by reacting to them.

When appropriately applied to purposefully disruptive online behavior, the word troll economically converts an abstract code of online manners into a concrete image. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts to that forum — hence the often-seen warning, "Please do not feed the Troll". Posting this warning publicly, in reply to a troll's behavior to discourage further replies, may discourage the troll. However, it can also have the reverse effect, becoming itself food for the troll. Therefore, when a forum participant sees an apparently innocent answer to a troll as potential troll food, it may be more prudent to deliver the "Please do not feed the Troll" warning in a private message to the answerer (e.g., by email, or to the answerer's wiki Talk page).

[prizrak]

There is another point that I completely forgot to make, which deals with the fact that many people claim that the reason Linux is not enjoying a significant market share on the desktop markte is because it's inferior to Windows.
The problem with such reasoning has a few flaws.
- Windows sets certain OEM policies for the hardware makers, one of them states that they are not allowed to preload anything but MS OS on their hardware. If the OEM is to renegotiate the contract then MS changes the pricing policy on them effectively making it more expensive for the end user to get a Windows machine.
- Windows has been preloaded on the x86 machines for years, it has to do with the bundling that has been done by IBM years ago. What we have to remember is that until 91 (when Linux was first introduced) there was no real alternative on the x86 market and when Linux did come out it was very much an OS for people to tinker with it was way more complicated to run than DOS (Windows?).
- Software and hardware companies are actually interested in the monopoly. If you watch TV and are in the States you must have seen millions of ads for A/V, firewall, anti-spyware software, just about every ISP runs commercials using the fact that they give you all that crap for free as a selling point. Windows is very hardware intensive which forces people to upgrade whenever new features come out (XP SP2 needs more RAM than SP1) especially when new OS comes out such as Vista that states in it's requirenments that it will need a 256MB vid card just to run the GUI. It is also much easier for the hardware makers to just make one type of driver that runs on Windows than make drivers for all kinds of different OS's.