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View Full Version : Why "The Cloud", whatever happened to "Cyberspace"?



Haventfoundme
November 15th, 2008, 10:28 PM
Please indulge me with your opinions, I have read several different definitions and terms about cloud computing and cyberspace. Now its time to hear it come out of the horses mouth, you the users, the people who are being informed that cloud computing is coming, that it is the new revolution of computing infrastructure.
The concept has been around since the mid 20th century, but in the past few years the concept is becoming tangible. I would like to know what you know about these concepts and what the diffrence is between cyberspace and cloud computing.

PS: I forgot don't restrict your self so much, The internet comes into play somehow right?

HaventFoundMe

amauk
November 15th, 2008, 10:35 PM
marketing term
pure and simple

everyone knows what 'The Internet' is
most people use it on a daily basis
so any application served over the internet doesn't sound that impressive

But 'cloud computing'
ooh, shiny

same with 'Software as a Service'
that's 'hosted', surely

marketing term to attract venture capital

*edit*
and the name 'cloud' comes from those networking textbook diagrams
little fluffy cloud with "Internet" written in it
It's such a stupid name....cloud....

SunnyRabbiera
November 15th, 2008, 10:39 PM
marketing term
pure and simple

everyone knows what 'The Internet' is
most people use it on a daily basis
so any application served over the internet doesn't sound that impressive

But 'cloud computing'
ooh, shiny

same with 'Software as a Service'
that's 'hosted', surely

marketing term to attract venture capital

*edit*
and the name 'cloud' comes from those networking textbook diagrams
little fluffy cloud with "Internet" written in it
It's such a stupid name....cloud....

well cloud implies light computing, as opposed to grounded computing like most of us do.

amauk
November 15th, 2008, 10:45 PM
well cloud implies light computing, as opposed to grounded computing like most of us do.
sorry?
light?
grounded?

(aaarrgghh, more buzz words :))

inobe
November 15th, 2008, 10:50 PM
sounds like surfing toasted, wow the clouds are moving by so fast' whoa :shock:

SunnyRabbiera
November 15th, 2008, 10:54 PM
sorry?
light?
grounded?

(aaarrgghh, more buzz words :))

Well cloud computers offer very little because they are made to be cheap and not very power hungry.
They have small hard drives, limited memory and are mainly made for the person on the go or those who cant afford much.
A more traditional computer might be impractical to some people and in fact it is.
So personally I refer to more traditional computers grounded computers as they have a lot preloaded into them and then you have cloud computers who have next to nothing inside of them

amauk
November 15th, 2008, 11:05 PM
No no no, cloud computing is about applications
not actual computers
(well, as far as I understand it anyway)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Computing

You see
it's completely confusing & unnecessary term

Facebook / Myspace
Google Docs
etc.

applications whose very operation relies heavily on communication over the Internet

Use of these types of application is what's known as "Cloud computing"

but we already had multiple terms for them anyway
Hosted
Server side
Remote
Web-based

richg
November 15th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Google, your best friend. Plenty of opinions.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=cloud+computing&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=cyberspace&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

Rich

Capt. Mac
November 15th, 2008, 11:11 PM
I believe it has to do with the way many networking diagrams are drawn.


Clouds generally refer to wide area networks (WANs) such as the Internet, but can also be used to depict local networks (LANs). A cloud-like symbol in a network diagram is used to reduce an entire communications network into points of entry and exit. Clouds are drawn when the components within the network are not material to the illustration. Inside the cloud, there may be any number of routers, switches, trunks and other devices that make up the network infrastructure. See cloud computing.

Cloud computing is a reference to this concept.

amauk
November 15th, 2008, 11:18 PM
which is why when I draw up sketches (I do a fair amount of network documentation for systems I manage) I use a curved triangle

Makes me look different, ahead of the curve
I tell people the next big thing will be my patented Distributed Deltoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deltoid_curve) Database

Haventfoundme
November 15th, 2008, 11:22 PM
My personal understanding of cloud computing is that is revolves aroung network connections. The concept is the same as mailservers, ftp servers, and print servers; but the underlying difference is that RDP/VNC/VPN concepts come into play.
You are rempotely accessing a computing environment in order to execute applications, that sounds alot like what we have now when I RDP/VNC. Also what SunnyRabbiera had to say about cloud computers is important too, even though we already have cloud computers, their called laptops or thin clients.
I agree with amauk though about his "marketing term" theory because come on people, who else knows about RDP and what it really is used for. People in office environments? Just last year I spoke with some people who were amazed that some IT guy in another location from another computer was moving there pointer around:(. Cloud computing is just a term to clarify and mainstream technical things that some people just don't want to understand or never wish to be interested in.
That's what I feel seperates everybody's underastanding of cloud computing. Its like pda's, they have been around a long time but mainstream terms and cost efficient technology dubs it a blackberry.

HaventFoundMe

Haventfoundme
November 15th, 2008, 11:24 PM
PS I am really enjoying this active Feedback, I am so glad people are out there with there eyes open and minds thinking.

lisati
November 15th, 2008, 11:31 PM
Way back "when", there was also the idea of the "black box" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box) which served some of the same purpose as the cloud in the diagrams, i.e. some device or mechanism where the function was more important to the concept being illustrated than the actual mechanics of achieving the function.

night_fox
November 17th, 2008, 03:27 AM
I feel very uncomfortable about cloud computing. I would certainly not give my files away to someone like Bill Gates, encrypted or not. My files are staying on my own hard drive which I have full control over. Cloud computing can only work with an internet connection, something which for many people is unreliable and having one with reasonable speed is even less likely, the servers working properly is even less likely. You will be forced into a contract which means that you will pay through the nose each month and when you stop, I can just imagine your computer being rendered useless or even permanently bricked. I can imagine receiving some stupid laptop with some stupid DRM infested firmware which displays a different advert every time you go to a different web page.

"Cloud computing means that you can access your files from anywhere in the world or any computer" - I can do this anyway with what I have now.

To me the idea of cloud computing makes very little practical sense and is purely a money making scheme. It goes entirely against everything we stand for in using Ubuntu. With enough marketing it will certainly take off and it will be dangerously detrimental to our freedom.

Grant A.
November 17th, 2008, 03:32 AM
I believe it has to do with the way many networking diagrams are drawn.



Cloud computing is a reference to this concept.

That picture is essentially a diagram of a torrent, as well.

Sporkman
November 17th, 2008, 04:17 AM
Please indulge me with your opinions, I have read several different definitions and terms about cloud computing and cyberspace. Now its time to hear it come out of the horses mouth, you the users, the people who are being informed that cloud computing is coming, that it is the new revolution of computing infrastructure.
The concept has been around since the mid 20th century, but in the past few years the concept is becoming tangible. I would like to know what you know about these concepts and what the diffrence is between cyberspace and cloud computing.

PS: I forgot don't restrict your self so much, The internet comes into play somehow right?

HaventFoundMe


The "Cloud" scheme addresses where & how server resources are allocated, and impacts the management and economics thereof.

"Cyberspace" is the abstract spatial conceptualization of network communications & interactions.

solitaire
November 17th, 2008, 05:22 AM
I think of it more like white fluffy "Cloud Computing" floats within "Cyberspace"......


above a sea of virtual pirates.... :D

joninkrakow
November 17th, 2008, 10:44 AM
My opinion, but when "cyberspace" was the buzzword, it was all about static, passive data. You would find static information that sat there passively in cyberspace. But with cloud computing, it's dynamic and active--and furthermore, it's _your_ data. You are working on the data that is "out there." It's not just some web page, but an active application that is storing your data, but more than just your data, the application that you use as well. So, static-passive vs. dynamic-active. That is with the change in capabilities that we have seen in recent years. Sure it's all buzzwords, but you have to name these things something, and you can't use the same term forever anyway...

-Jon

joninkrakow
November 17th, 2008, 10:49 AM
To me the idea of cloud computing makes very little practical sense and is purely a money making scheme.

Better to say "for me...." Because this is only for your particular situation. For me, I find GoogleDocs to be quite useful, even compelling--despite my resistance to them! I'm always a bit leery of these things, but have recently found that there are some occasions that I need to use GD simply because it's almost the only way I can simply share certain documents between my multiple computers and multiple locations, and with multiple co-workers who need to collaborate on these documents with me. Also, it is a safe off-site storage location, in that I need not worry about my pen drive, or memory card or CD dying on me.

Is "cloud computing" the "future" for "everybody"? No, but it is a useful tool to have in your tool chest for those occasions that need it. It can't and won't replace local apps and local storage, but it is a good supplement to that. It makes no sense to totally diss it just because you don't need it.

-Jon

Jay_Bee
November 17th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Cyberspace is the OLD word, like, so 90's...
Cloud is the NEW and SHINY and oh so everyone wants it... or not.

Junkieman
November 17th, 2008, 03:52 PM
i'm sure it will be a good few years before it's globally functional, especially in third world countries where robust + fast net access is a bit of a problem.

cyberspace was coined by William Gibson, his work is great :)

toupeiro
November 17th, 2008, 07:42 PM
I struggle with all these terms around computing, because they mean different things to different people. This is my spin on it:

Cyberspace is generally more of a laymens term for "REALLY HUGE NETWORK", relating each node on this network to a star in space. Its a conceptualization of Inter-networking that does not really apply to intra-networking, which if using "cyberspace" as a model, intra-networking would be more like a galaxy in cyberspace. Cloud computing is a term that can really be used in both areas.

The cloud, simply put, in terminology speak is a very large network of resources. It can refer to the internet, but it can also refer to resources on a WAN or MAN, but typically not a LAN.

Now, this is where it gets hairy is splitting this term into forms of computing. You have:

Cloud Computing: Little to no centralized infrastructure involved (P2P). (An Unmanaged Framework)

Grid Computing: An intentional clustering of compute and/or storage resources into one often times distinguished but also can be an undistinguished "mass-resource" which is then used for very large computations. (A Managed Framework)

Utility Computing: Basically the concept of taking Grid Computing and turning it into a utility, like water, gas, electricity etc etc. Making it on-demand, but also metered, most of the time for revenues, but in a Private utility model, it can also be used for trending the need to expand the utility model in certain areas based on usage fluxuations. (Managed)

Volunteer Computing: These are your Folding@home and SETI@home resources where the asset owner voluntarily makes his system a peer of a cloud computing network that is generally privately accessed cloud of public peers. (Unmanaged)

There are others out there as well...


There is A LOT of crossover between these models when you start labeling them to different systems or applications. IMO, most all of them are marketing ploys.

The two real ones I use are Cloud and Utility, because they are well defined and broad yet distinct from eachother,and its accurate enough to say that most all of the other models or frameworks fit into them. Almost all de-centralized volunteer resource pools can be clouds, but not all clouds will be de-centralized volunteer resource pools. Almost all grid computing resources can be utility computing resources, but not all utility computing resources will be grid computing frameworks.


I basically think of utility computing as diversification and even a little bit of decentralization with regard to usage, of grid computing, Grid computing models can be unstructured, but usually loosely centralized to a physical location with localized usage. Utility computing basically takes that model, but changes the usage scope to a more regional, national, and potentially global scale. The reason I don't say grid is that I think almost all grids created are used more like utilities. I think its just a more descriptive term as to what a grid does. It provides computation in whatever form as a utility much like a power "grid" provides electricity as a utility. I think Cloud and cloud models are a bit more straightforward in comparison to grid when trying to explain them which is why I digressed so much here.

... but industry terminology doesn't label it that way right now. I think more refinement to these terms will come with their continued exposure. So when I say cloud or utility, and its really a grid or volunteer computing model, I've simplified the definition, without being misleading about it.

anyway, thats just my ramblings on the topic. :)

-T.