No wonder Linux Netbook are returned 4 times more than windows

[bigbrovar]

I was at a computer store to get a webcam. i saw the linux based eeepc and a tech support for the store was demostrating it to an interested customer. what caught my attention was when the customer asked if the netbook had any software for word processing and the tech support went on to show him openoffice.org but to my disgust said that anything saved in openoffice.org can not be viewed in windows MS Office. I couldn't stand the obvious FUD. and i stepped in and showed them both how to save to .doc on OO.o . the customer ended up buying the eee. its so sad that many stores selling the linux based netbooks feed their customers with false informations when in fact a little infor on the device would go a long way in helping the customer in making an informed choice. going back home i wondered how may interested customers had been turned off by this obvious FUD by the very people that sell the linux eee.

ok maybe i shouldnt have posted this but i wanted to get it off my chest.

[LaRoza]

Interesting, but hardly conclusive.

It was only a particular model that was returned 4x more, not all netbooks.

[bigbrovar]

Re: No wonder Linux Netbook are returned 4 times more than windows
Interesting, but hardly conclusive.

It was only a particular model that was returned 4x more, not all netbooks.
my point is many people are feed with wrong informations when buying linux based netbooks mostly by sales people who know next to nothing about linux. the poor customer in my case was not even told that he was buying a Linux system. i had to inform him that the netbook was not windows and that it is linux based but very easy to use and secured. the so called tech support wanted him to feel that he was buying a form of windows PC.

add this to the poor implementation of linux on some of the netbook by their vendors and you get a situation where windows netbook is prefered over linux. believe me i have seen an xp based eeepc and it wasnt a pretty sight. but the guy who got it thought it was the better alternative.

[aysiu]

That is infuriating.

Neither is the truth, however.

It isn't the truth that OpenOffice cannot save documents in a form viewable by MS Office.

But neither is it the truth that OpenOffice has 100% compatibility with MS Office.

Consumers should get the whole truth. If they're just passing around simply-formatted documents (some bold, italics, and bullet points), they should be fine. But if the formatting is a bit more complicated, they may have some odd-looking documents if they're trading between Ooo and MSO.

[LaRoza]

It isn't the truth that OpenOffice cannot save documents in a form viewable by MS Office.

But neither is it the truth that OpenOffice has 100% compatibility with MS Office.

Consumers should get the whole truth. If they're just passing around simply-formatted documents (some bold, italics, and bullet points), they should be fine. But if the formatting is a bit more complicated, they may have some odd-looking documents if they're trading between Ooo and MSO.

When it uses rtf or other formats, they are (as far as I know) fine. Also, OOo has the option to export to pdf, something I can't find in Word.

MS Office (I think) will start to have ODF support. It doesn't have its own OOXML format supported yet.

[isaacj87]

my point is many people are feed with wrong informations when buying linux based netbooks mostly by sales people who know next to nothing about linux. the poor customer in my case was not even told that he was buying a Linux system. i had to inform him that the netbook was not windows and that it is linux based but very easy to use and secured. the so called tech support wanted him to feel that he was buying a form of windows PC.

add this to the poor implementation of linux on some of the netbook by their vendors and you get a situation where windows netbook is prefered over linux. believe me i have seen an xp based eeepc and it wasnt a pretty sight. but the guy who got it thought it was the better alternative.

First off, good for you for stepping in and correcting the mistake! I understand how irritating it is when people pass along false information as the truth, but I wouldn't say that the salesperson was necessarily trying to spread FUB. He just didn't know any better (not saying we should excuse ignorance).

[aysiu]

When it uses rtf or other formats, they are (as far as I know) fine. Also, OOo has the option to export to pdf, something I can't find in Word.

MS Office (I think) will start to have ODF support. It doesn't have its own OOXML format supported yet.
Yes, that's true, but .rtf is pretty limited in terms of formatting options, anyway, so the point is moot.

I love OpenOffice's PDF export option, but that's a one-way street. You can't send someone using MS Office a PDF and say, "Here. Make whatever changes you want and then send this back to me."

[bigbrovar]

That is infuriating.

Neither is the truth, however.

It isn't the truth that OpenOffice cannot save documents in a form viewable by MS Office.

But neither is it the truth that OpenOffice has 100% compatibility with MS Office.

Consumers should get the whole truth. If they're just passing around simply-formatted documents (some bold, italics, and bullet points), they should be fine. But if the formatting is a bit more complicated, they may have some odd-looking documents if they're trading between Ooo and MSO.
i didnt say that OO.o was 100% compatible with MSOffice i just showed him how to save to .doc from openoffice


OOo has the option to export to pdf, yeah i showed him that too .

[LaRoza]

Yes, that's true, but .rtf is pretty limited in terms of formatting options, anyway, so the point is moot.

I love OpenOffice's PDF export option, but that's a one-way street. You can't send someone using MS Office a PDF and say, "Here. Make whatever changes you want and then send this back to me."

I didn't know which one to respond to, this is the first, in case you can't tell.

Yes, .rtf is limited, but I have yet to see the average person need more than it can offer :-) Of course, you get the same effect with .doc, but you get smaller files that are more compatible. If one needs MS Word, then it is a moot point. If people need a word processor, then it works fine.

Yes, that is the good thing. I write it in OOo, then when I'm finished, I export to pdf. Now it works everywhere just the way I wanted it.

[aysiu]

i didnt say that OO.o was 100% compatible with MSOffice i just showed him how to save to .doc from openoffice

yeah i showed him that too . I know you didn't say it, but I think it's a disservice to the person not to give him a proper disclaimer that there are some rare instances in which there isn't full compatibility.

[aysiu]

Yes, .rtf is limited, but I have yet to see the average person need more than it can offer :-) Of course, you get the same effect with .doc, but you get smaller files that are more compatible. If one needs MS Word, then it is a moot point. If people need a word processor, then it works fine. Well, the issue here is that many people (including that customer, who has probably never even heard of OpenOffice) don't know if they need MS Word or not. If you have never heard of an alternative to what you're using now, how can you know if that alternative can act as a proper replacement for what you're using?

[bigbrovar]

I know you didn't say it, but I think it's a disservice to the person not to give him a proper disclaimer that there are some rare instances in which there isn't full compatibility.
true but openoffice does that already when you try to save anything to .doc you get this "This document may contain formatting or content that cannot be saved in microsoft word"

[LaRoza]

Well, the issue here is that many people (including that customer, who has probably never even heard of OpenOffice) don't know if they need MS Word or not. If you have never heard of an alternative to what you're using now, how can you know if that alternative can act as a proper replacement for what you're using?

That is true, however, I would bet that a person buying a netbook isn't going to need such features anyway. Anyone doing it for business, would use company equipment. A person buying a netbook is likely a student or doing it for personal use, and just needs a word processor that works with others.

In truth, MS Word is the one not compatible. MS Word doesn't even support the standards that Microsoft paid so much to get.

[aysiu]

You're probably right, LaRoza, based on probability.

But I don't like to make assumptions about others' computing needs. I know nothing of that person's situation. It's very likely OpenOffice would work just fine for him, but I'd "sell" OpenOffice as an alternative as much as I could while also throwing in all the necessary disclaimers just so he knows exactly what he's getting into.

This is the spirit in which I also offer the Is Ubuntu for You? thread I wrote a few years ago. It's one thing to exaggerate benefits and overlook flaws and roadblocks to adoption if you are a corporate advertisement or VP of PR for a company. But if you're an everyday user like we are, it behooves you to be as straightforward as you can about what people are to expect in switching over to something new and ultimately that honesty is what is going to minimize the return rate of Linux-preinstalled netbooks.

[aysiu]

You're probably right, LaRoza, based on probability.

But I don't like to make assumptions about others' computing needs. I know nothing of that person's situation. It's very likely OpenOffice would work just fine for him, but I'd "sell" OpenOffice as an alternative as much as I could while also throwing in all the necessary disclaimers just so he knows exactly what he's getting into.

This is the spirit in which I also offer the Is Ubuntu for You? thread I wrote a few years ago. It's one thing to exaggerate benefits and overlook flaws and roadblocks to adoption if you are a corporate advertisement or VP of PR for a company. But if you're an everyday user like we are, it behooves you to be as straightforward as you can about what people are to expect in switching over to something new and ultimately that honesty is what is going to minimize the return rate of Linux-preinstalled netbooks.

Though, this anecdote isn't about returning Linux netbooks so much as it is about not buying them in the first place. People return them because they expect 100% compatibility with Windows formats and Windows programs. We need to educate people to modify their expectations.

[cb951303]

I wonder now that MS released their binary office file format specs, will we see any improvement on openoffice side? It would be sad if OOo team decides to support/improve ooxml and forget about *.doc.

[zmjjmz]

OO.o 3 pretty much has perfect compatibility with the old .doc and .ppt and .xls now, but I suppose Asus in their infinite lack of care for a proper Linux setup didn't even bother to put OO.o 3 on their recent netbooks.

[LaRoza]

You're probably right, LaRoza, based on probability.

But I don't like to make assumptions about others' computing needs. I know nothing of that person's situation. It's very likely OpenOffice would work just fine for him, but I'd "sell" OpenOffice as an alternative as much as I could while also throwing in all the necessary disclaimers just so he knows exactly what he's getting into.


Well, I tend to assume people who really need something, know what they need. Those people returning the Linux Netbooks most likely don't need Windows at all, they are just used to it and were unwilling to take the time to change or find alternatives. It may be the time and effort would be too much as well.

If someone is looking at a Linux computer, then they don't need Windows. If they truly needed it, they'd know it.

Considering these stores would be pushing Microsoft Office and some Anti-virus software to anyone buying a Windows machine, whether they needed it or not (even me, when they knew I used Linux...), offering free software that may not work for them isn't that bad.

[aysiu]

If someone is looking at a Linux computer, then they don't need Windows. If they truly needed it, they'd know it. I have to disagree with you there. For all that guy knew, he might have been looking at a Windows computer. He may not have heard of Linux before or even realized there are different operating systems (I know some Windows users who don't even know they're using Windows when they use Windows).

[cb951303]

OO.o 3 pretty much has perfect compatibility with the old .doc and .ppt and .xls now, but I suppose Asus in their infinite lack of care for a proper Linux setup didn't even bother to put OO.o 3 on their recent netbooks.

I don't know with what kind of doc files you are working with but OOo is not even near perfect compatibility with the doc files I'm working with. So far I didn't even see one properly rendered table.

But in OP's condition they export to a doc file. It might be different case.

[LaRoza]

I have to disagree with you there. For all that guy knew, he might have been looking at a Windows computer. He may not have heard of Linux before or even realized there are different operating systems (I know some Windows users who don't even know they're using Windows when they use Windows).

I meant "truly needed" in the fullest sense of the word.

It may be Windows + MS Office is the only thing one is used to, and has absolutely no will to even look at something else, and in this case Linux or OOo wouldn't be appropriate, but it still isn't a "truly needed" situation.

[billgoldberg]

I was at a computer store to get a webcam. i saw the linux based eeepc and a tech support for the store was demostrating it to an interested customer. what caught my attention was when the customer asked if the netbook had any software for word processing and the tech support went on to show him openoffice.org but to my disgust said that anything saved in openoffice.org can not be viewed in windows MS Office. I couldn't stand the obvious FUD. and i stepped in and showed them both how to save to .doc on OO.o . the customer ended up buying the eee. its so sad that many stores selling the linux based netbooks feed their customers with false informations when in fact a little infor on the device would go a long way in helping the customer in making an informed choice. going back home i wondered how may interested customers had been turned off by this obvious FUD by the very people that sell the linux eee.

ok maybe i shouldnt have posted this but i wanted to get it off my chest.

If you are making the point that lots of people don't know what is possible with linux I agree.

I think the biggest reason is that people are expecting a windows clone.

Also the distro's used on those machines are just bad distro's.

[KiwiNZ]

One of the problems with the sale of the Netbooks is they are being sold as if they are mainstream Laptops , just very small. The buyers expectations are raised too high and they expect them to perform as a normal laptop when the reality is they are a high end PDA.

An example http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/49133d4a00e07d4c2740c0a87f3b068c/Product/View/XC5809

[LaRoza]

One of the problems with the sale of the Netbooks is they are being sold as if they are mainstream Laptops , just very small. The buyers expectations are raised too high and they expect them to perform as a normal laptop when the reality is they are a high end PDA.

It depends on the netbook I think.

My Dell 910 has everything I'd expect from a laptop (including a card reader, which I didn't notice at first!) except not a lot of storage (and a small screen and keyboard).

I know someone who has an Acer One upgraded to the point where it is better than many computers, yet is still small.

The use of them may be different, but not because the netbooks can't, it is just often inconvenient (writing a lot, coding, etc). I'd have to hook mine up to my monitor and a full sized keyboard to use as I would my regular computer, but it can do it.

[t0p]

One of the problems with the sale of the Netbooks is they are being sold as if they are mainstream Laptops , just very small. The buyers expectations are raised too high and they expect them to perform as a normal laptop when the reality is they are a high end PDA.

An example http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/49133d4a00e07d4c2740c0a87f3b068c/Product/View/XC5809

The ad at that link is guilty of some exaggeration, sure. But it's exaggerating about the software, not the machine. I own an Eeepc, I hated the supplied Xandros, so installed Hardy and now have a lil computer that is as capable as my desktop on most fronts.

I don't believe you'd find an Intel Celeron M 900 MHz processor and 512 MB RAM in a "high-end PDA".

[LaRoza]

I don't believe you'd find an Intel Celeron M 900 MHz processor and 512 MB RAM in a "high-end PDA".

Or an Intel Atom 1.6 Ghz and 1 GB of RAM.

[zmjjmz]

One of the problems with the sale of the Netbooks is they are being sold as if they are mainstream Laptops , just very small. The buyers expectations are raised too high and they expect them to perform as a normal laptop when the reality is they are a high end PDA.

An example http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/49133d4a00e07d4c2740c0a87f3b068c/Product/View/XC5809

I beg to differ.
Alþough some of ðe Linux distributions put on þem may limit þem to being high-end PDAs, a good deal of þem are capable of far more.

[chucky chuckaluck]

i imagine the main reason linux netbooks get returned is due to unfamiliarity. even if something is better, if someone doesn't know how to use it, it's not much good to them. linux treats its users like responsible adults who are capable of taking the time to learn something. microsoft (i don't know about apple) sees the general user as a clueless moron who needs to be spoonfed, or hit over the head.

typical responses to a problem:

linux help: have you read the man page?

windows help: ok, i'm gonna want you to plug in your computer.

[LaRoza]

microsoft (i don't know about apple) sees the general user as a clueless moron who needs to be spoonfed, or hit over the head.


Apple has a "accept the defaults because you have no choice and be iHappy" attitude. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2466?viewlocale=en_US

[billgoldberg]

Apple has a "accept the defaults because you have no choice and be iHappy" attitude. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2466?viewlocale=en_US

The link you posted is one big "WTF!?".

[forrestcupp]

In truth, MS Word is the one not compatible. MS Word doesn't even support the standards that Microsoft paid so much to get.
That's only true in a Utopian world. Like it or not, MS Word is the standard, and OO.o isn't compatible with its macros, Visual Basic extendability, and a multitude of other things no matter what format you save it in.

I tend to agree with aysiu here. Linux is a great option, but it is a disservice to sugar coat it and make people think they're getting something they're not, only to have them mad about it when they find out the truth later. And I personally know many uninformed people who would go buy a Linux netbook without even knowing it's Linux. They would just assume that it's some new version of Windows made to run on smaller net machines. There are a lot of people who don't study things out before buying and even more people who have never even heard of Linux.

But I also agree with the OP that most sales people and IT guys make Linux look a lot less usable than it is. And that's not fair, either.

[LaRoza]

That's only true in a Utopian world. Like it or not, MS Word is the standard, and OO.o isn't compatible with its macros, Visual Basic extendability, and a multitude of other things no matter what format you save it in.

Word isn't standard. It is standard for some people, but many governments, institutions and people use other formats.

And my statement was true in this world, which certainly isn't Utopia. Microsoft tried so hard to get its OOXML (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML) a standard, despite there being existing and supported standards, and yet, their Office 2007 doesn't use this standard.

In fact, ODF is on its way to World Wide Adoption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Worldwide_adoption), and will be used by MS Office. Microsoft's proprietary formats are not the future.

.doc will be floating around for a while, but it will die out. Every use Word for DOS? It saves in .doc, but it is not even near compatible with any version of Word in this century (I tried).

[MaxIBoy]

I've saved to Word 6.0 files from OpenOffice, and apparently Word '07 has no trouble with it.

[Tux Aubrey]

Apart from the OO.o issue, I'd say the biggest reasons for the return of Linux netbooks are:


unrealistic buyer expectations
poor or totally absent documentation; and
appalling implementation by the OEMs - some of the distros being distributed are like crippleware.


I have an Acer One and it runs Xubuntu just fine. I wouldn't use OO on it (Abiword is entirely adequate). The default OS - "Linpus Lite" was a bad choice IMO - a hacked and crippled version of an already hacked and crippled version of Fedora. I am encouraged by DELL and Canonical doing some genuine work on a more suitable OS. But do they provide any documentation suitable for new Linux users?

[saulgoode]

One of the problems with the sale of the Netbooks is they are being sold as if they are mainstream Laptops , just very small. The buyers expectations are raised too high and they expect them to perform as a normal laptop when the reality is they are a high end PDA.

An example http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/49133d4a00e07d4c2740c0a87f3b068c/Product/View/XC5809

It should be noted that the CEO of ASUS asserted in a recent interview (http://blog.laptopmag.com/asus-ceo-reveals-eee-pc-sales-numbers-plans-for-touch-eee-pcs-and-more-eee-family-products) that, unlike the MSI netbook return rate claim, there was little difference in return rates for the ASUS netbooks.


Can you share information on sales of the Linux Eee PCs versus Windows XP versions? What about return rates overall for Eee PC netbooks?

I think the return rate for the Eee PCs are low but I believe the Linux and Windows have similar return rates.

[jflaker]

SNIPPED.........what caught my attention was when the customer asked if the netbook had any software for word processing and the tech support went on to show him openoffice.org but to my disgust said that anything saved in openoffice.org can not be viewed in windows MS Office. I couldn't stand the obvious FUD. and i stepped in and showed them both how to save to .doc on OO.o ....SNIPPED

Unless you are technical, the average computer user is deaf, dumb and blind........they know little of the alternatives around them....they use windows at work because IT can't support FOSS yet, and at home because that is what was on the computer when it was purchased

The alternatives will never be explored because the average user is scared to change!

[samjh]

When it uses rtf or other formats, they are (as far as I know) fine. Also, OOo has the option to export to pdf, something I can't find in Word.

MS Office (I think) will start to have ODF support. It doesn't have its own OOXML format supported yet.

MS Office compatibility is the only thing that prevents me from recommending Linux distros to my associates and friends. Most of them need good MS Word compatibility, and no Linux word processor has it.

Even when reading or writing RTF, OpenOffice screws up. I exchange a lot of documents of various formats - doc, docx, rtf - and there is almost always a problem. Even a simple bullet/number-listed document can go awry, and don't even try documents with tables (you'll end up with wrong table sizes 99% of the time).

[crazyness003]

Apple has a "accept the defaults because you have no choice and be iHappy" attitude. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2466?viewlocale=en_US
The link you posted is one big "WTF!?".

Dude. no f****g way! Are they playing or is it serious?
And bill, you are right: WTF indeed?!

Anyway, i was at a CompUSA and saw an eeepc that had suse installed. So i went to check it out, but it was at the login prompt. so i asked an associate to log in for me so i can "play arround" a bit. Needless to say, the guy was clueless. He looked at it and looked at me and just had that "wtf is this? Novell? WTF does that mean?" look. So I just told him to "nevermind, im sure its awesome...if you had the username and password."
Immediate response after the guy walked away: WTF, LOL, n00b!

(sigh) i love this.

[zmjjmz]

MS Office compatibility is the only thing that prevents me from recommending Linux distros to my associates and friends. Most of them need good MS Word compatibility, and no Linux word processor has it.

Even when reading or writing RTF, OpenOffice screws up. I exchange a lot of documents of various formats - doc, docx, rtf - and there is almost always a problem. Even a simple bullet/number-listed document can go awry, and don't even try documents with tables (you'll end up with wrong table sizes 99% of the time).

MS Office 2007 can be run in WINE quite easily.

[zmjjmz]

Dude. no f****g way! Are they playing or is it serious?
And bill, you are right: WTF indeed?!

Anyway, i was at a CompUSA and saw an eeepc that had suse installed. So i went to check it out, but it was at the login prompt. so i asked an associate to log in for me so i can "play arround" a bit. Needless to say, the guy was clueless. He looked at it and looked at me and just had that "wtf is this? Novell? WTF does that mean?" look. So I just told him to "nevermind, im sure its awesome...if you had the username and password."
Immediate response after the guy walked away: WTF, LOL, n00b!

(sigh) i love this.

I ðought CompUSA went out of business a long time ago...

[bigbrovar]

MS Office compatibility is the only thing that prevents me from recommending Linux distros to my associates and friends. Most of them need good MS Word compatibility, and no Linux word processor has it.

Even when reading or writing RTF, OpenOffice screws up. I exchange a lot of documents of various formats - doc, docx, rtf - and there is almost always a problem. Even a simple bullet/number-listed document can go awry, and don't even try documents with tables (you'll end up with wrong table sizes 99% of the time).

this is while in the school where am linux admin i made OO.o the standard word processor and odt the default format.second to pdf. and so far its been perfect.

[crazyness003]

I ðought CompUSA went out of business a long time ago...
Nope, tigerdirect.com bought them out. Its basically a physical TigerDirect store...with the same red "CompUSA" sign on the front (tigerdirect is based out of florida, and the CompUSA i visit is in Altamonte Springs, Florida...so there might be a logical link there.)

But yes, CompUSA is no longer owned by CompUSA (i know right, at leased it not as bad as this: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2466?viewlocale=en_US. This is so going in my sig.

[chucky chuckaluck]

Apple has a "accept the defaults because you have no choice and be iHappy" attitude. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2466?viewlocale=en_US

do they have a list of places one can carry one's imac without violating a warranty?

i did ask on some mac forum a few years ago what the options were for customization and i did get an answer that amounted to "trust apple to know what's best for you".

[patrickballeux]

Again that rant about OpenOffice not being fully compatible with Office...

If you want full compatibility, use MS Office... What did I say? No, even MS Office is not fully compatible with MS Office!

It's always the same, you are writing a document in version X, send it to a colleague that will send it back modified with MS Office Y. Now you're stuck because your version of MS Office cannot read the document anymore...

So I need to upgrade to the latest because suddenly others are upgrading also... That's a mess...

And you can also have compatibility problem from one computer to another using the same version, depending on the printer driver and other specific setting of Windows.

So how can we expect OpenOffice to be fully compatible with MS Office when MS Office itself is not able to be fully compatible?

I use OpenOffice at work (using Ubuntu) and everybody is using MS Office. Since I don't have to produce complex document, everything works great. But the funny thing is that from time to time, someone comes to me and ask me to fix their MS Office document because it is corrupted (cannot open in MS Office at all). I then use OpenOffice to open it, and then save it into a new MS document...

So I say: If you want to use advance features of MS Office, stick with MS Office. If you want to have document portability, then use OpenOffice. It does not support some powerful features of MS Office, but for 95% of the users, they don't even know about those features or don't use them at all.

And about those documents/spreadsheets that contain complex macros: Ever tought about learning to code in Java/C#? In a real coding environment? Your macros would be a lot safer than in a Word/Excel document. I've seen some document so complex to use because of all the macros that is it a real nightmare to fix them when something goes wrong or needs to be updated.

If you find your macros are complex, then you should re-think your design. Always do your stuff to be simple. It will be easier to maintain and fix. A macro was meant to do simple stuff. When you need more power, that's time to code a real solution/software using a real language. It's not because Macros are able to create a mail server that it is a good idea to create one...

My 2 cents...
:guitar:

[KiwiNZ]

Thishas moved to a bashing thread . I am unsure how this relates to Mac. They dont make a netbook

Inline with the banner I am closing this