Japan vs Germany cars, which are better?

[syms]

Hello,
I already did poll about ford cars. Now there are two car industry enemies - Japan cars and Germany cars. The question is which cars are better?
Power of Japan: Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Suzuki, Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Isuzu.
Power of Germany: Volkswagen, Vauxhall (Opel), Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and others.
YOU MUST EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK SO
Because, i maked a poll, but most of people didnt explain why they think so. And im not making poll, because of some dudes who clicking no just for fun. Sorry for this, but you must write a reply.
Thank you very much

[mips]

Define 'better'?

From a reliability point of view the Japanese brands of Honda, Toyota & Subaru win hands down.

[chucky chuckaluck]

i've had a bunch of VWs and hondas and loved them all.

[Vitamin-Carrot]

Is Nissan jap made?

I like nissan they have a hydro cell vehicle that can do a top speed of 150kph and a range of 500km

[billgoldberg]

German cars, hand down.

They look better and are of excellent quality.

--

I still prefer Italian (Alfa Romeo) or French (Peugeot) cars.

[gn2]

Japanese car brands are far superior in the most important area, reliability.

[Icehuck]

BMW 3 Series. Haven't found something better yet.

[mips]

I still prefer Italian (Alfa Romeo)

I love Alfa for all the wrong reasons. I do not think they make reliable cars though. I would probably buy one but would never recommend one to anybody.

[eternalnewbee]

I thought Vauxhall was British...
I like them both.

[etnlIcarus]

With Gran Turismo 3 being my only source, I can confidently say Japan sell a wider range of better-performing cars at a leaner price.

As you can no doubt tell by now, I know nothing about cars beyond what I've played in videogames.

[Circus-Killer]

Define 'better'?

From a reliability point of view the Japanese brands of Honda, Toyota & Subaru win hands down.

okay, overall i much prefer german cars.
and on the subject of reliability, i think german cars win here too. :popcorn:

[mips]

and on the subject of reliability, i think german cars win here too. :popcorn:

Think all you want but studies & comsumer reports indicate otherwise ;)

There are more toyotas than bmws sold in this country yet I personally see more bmws broken down or on the back of a recovery truck than toyotas.

Biase is a normal human trait so it's ok ;)

[Tamlynmac]

This is a really tough call because both offer quality here in the states but appear to target different markets. For high end - German no doubt. For the average car owner here that may turn their vehicles over every 4 or five years, the Japanese offer good quality at generally a more reasonable price.

Even the new VW's are pricey and with the number of miles driven per year, many US buyers elect to purchase based on cost alone.This may change in the future especially with the cost/availability of fuel and economy issues over the next few years. Hopefully, we will learn that large consumptions of fossil fuels (especially oil) is not in our best interest and will look to alternative sources of energy for our transportation needs. However, we are an extremely hard headed group. :smile:

[gn2]

I thought Vauxhall was British...
I like them both.

Vauxhall are part of General Motors.

[syms]

Thanks for opinions. I think that japan cars are way much better than germany's. i have pulled down many cars and i see that japan construction is much better than germany's cars. and we have drived germany cars like volkswagen, opel and now we are on honda accord. soon we gonna buy honda legend. when we tried honda we never looked back. Japan cars are the best in the world! Congratulations!

[Paul41]

I like German cars, I currently have a VW and had a OLD BMW before that. With that said the next car I am going to get is a Honda. They are less expensive and get better gas mileage. German cars also cost a fortune to fix (at least here in the US they do).

[blazercist]

I have a BMW, I've had 3 BMW's as a matter of fact, I've only had one problem which was a factory related problem and was promptly fixed. Reliability wise the consumer reports lean towards Japanese cars, but I think these numbers are somewhat fictitious and based on lining the magazine's pockets rather than reality.

That said, I honestly believe that each car has its own reliability factor individually and that reliability cannot be determined as a factor of region or car maker. For example a new model or a new line will always have problems for the first few years which is why I never buy or lease a car when they come out with a new make or they come out with a new body.

As far as bang for your buck, Japanese car are far "better" you get more features for your dollars hands down. You get more technology and better gas mileage for less money.

As far as comfort and luxury, German cars win. There is nothing more beautiful, luxurious or prominant than an expensive German car. Trust me the ladies will like your Mercedes Benz S550 AMG more than your Toyota Corola or even your Lexus GS or LS. Whether this is because they associate the car with your lease/financing payment and therefore your bank account balance is irrelevant.

"Better" is extremely subjective. Its not wise to asks questions like this, you should really clarify what your standard is.

[Thelasko]

I'm going with Japan on this one. The cars are more reliable, less expensive and rival the Germans for performance.

My favorite quote concerning Japanese vs. German cars comes from Consumer Reports. Consumerreports.org is a for pay site, so I found a paraphrased version on wikicars (http://wikicars.org/en/Lexus_LS).

In 2006, Consumer Reports awarded the Lexus LS as the highest ranked vehicle in reliability in the luxury car class and gave it the "Best Car We Ever Tested" title, continuing the Lexus trend of scoring highly on Consumer Reports surveys. Based on Consumer Reports a five year old Lexus LS is more reliable and dependable than a brand new BMW 7-series, Mercedes S-class and Audi A8, owing to the wide disparity in reliability scores between the top-ranked LS and below-average German makes.

However, I might consider buying one of VW's diesel cars, as they are the only company to offer a diesel car in the United States.

[apoth]

German. I'd rather have a BMW, Audi or Mercedes over a Nissan or Toyota any day. They cost a lot more, but with good reason.

[Paul41]

However, I might consider buying one of VW's diesel cars, as they are the only company to offer a diesel car in the United States.

I would check into the VW diesel before you buy. I knew someone that had one and he was shocked at his first oil change (it was $500). He promptly go rid of the car. That may have changed since it was several years ago, but I would at least find out before I got one.

[justin whitaker]

I love Alfa for all the wrong reasons. I do not think they make reliable cars though. I would probably buy one but would never recommend one to anybody.

I would buy Alfa, but I would never recommend them. Well earned reputation as problem children.

But...oh the lines. The performance. The fun of never knowing if it will start. :)

[blazercist]

I'm going with Japan on this one. The cars are more reliable, less expensive and rival the Germans for performance.

My favorite quote concerning Japanese vs. German cars comes from Consumer Reports. Consumerreports.org is a for pay site, so I found a paraphrased version on wikicars (http://wikicars.org/en/Lexus_LS).


However, I might consider buying one of VW's diesel cars, as they are the only company to offer a diesel car in the United States.

About diesel, you are wrong... There are a few trucks made by American manufacturers that take diesel. Also you can order Mercedes in diesel if you have some extra money because some of the models are shipped from Germany anyway such as the S-Class. There are also some Audi's IIRC that are diesel in the US.

[blazercist]

I would check into the VW diesel before you buy. I knew someone that had one and he was shocked at his first oil change (it was $500). He promptly go rid of the car. That may have changed since it was several years ago, but I would at least find out before I got one.

My little brother has a diesel VW Passat, there is no reason on Earth for an oil change to cost $500, your friend got duped. Its the same oil the same amount of oil and the same procedure to change it. The only difference between a diesel engine and a standard gasoline engine is the method by which the fuel is combusted.

[y@w]

I recently bought a new (well, new to me) Toyota.. The car I really wanted was the Volkswagen Passat. Unfortunately, ratings on the car were actually horrible as far as reliability in the years I could afford. I really wanted the car for looks/comfort, but it didn't look like the best investment. (Although, buying a car is one of the worst investments you could ever make.. short of getting you to work :) ) I ended up with a Toyota and really like it. It definitely doesn't have the power that the VW's I drove had, but I'm very pleased with it so far and reliability ratings are great.

So in short, I would have to say that the comfort, luxury, and performance definitely favored the German cars, but reliability seems to favor the Japanese. That seems to be true at least in my very limited experience thus far :)

[Paul41]

My little brother has a diesel VW Passat, there is no reason on Earth for an oil change to cost $500, your friend got duped. Its the same oil the same amount of oil and the same procedure to change it. The only difference between a diesel engine and a standard gasoline engine is the method by which the fuel is combusted.

I agree. This was the VW dealer that did it, and they told him that if he got it done any where else it would void the warranty. I asked them about that when I bought my VW (mine is gas, and it was a different dealer) and they said that only applied to the diesel. So two separate dealers said the same thing. Still sounds wrong to me though.

[Thelasko]

Reliability wise the consumer reports lean towards Japanese cars, but I think these numbers are somewhat fictitious and based on lining the magazine's pockets rather than reality.

Consumer Reports has been sued (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E3DB103FF934A35757C0A9669C8B 63) several (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6949993/) times (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-08-suzuki-cu_x.htm) over such allegations. They have yet to pay any damages. Usually the case is over the choice of words Consumer Reports chooses for it's reviews. If they actually accused Consumer Reports of making things up the case would go like this.


Company: They make this stuff up!

Consumer Reports: Here's our data (followed by massive amounts of data being hauled into the court room reminiscent of Miracle on 34th Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_34th_Street).)

Judge: case dismissed!

The reason you think BMW is so great may be because you have never owned a Lexus.

[Icehuck]

I'm going with Japan on this one. The cars are more reliable, less expensive and rival the Germans for performance.


Name one Japanese car below $45,000 that will rival a BMW 3 Series in terms of performance. There is a reason why BMW is the standard for what a driving enthusiasts car should be.

[Depressed Man]

Aren't they both manufactured in the US now? So it's more the standards the company's enforce on the workers.

[blazercist]

Consumer Reports has been sued (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E3DB103FF934A35757C0A9669C8B 63) several (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6949993/) times (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-08-suzuki-cu_x.htm) over such allegations. They have yet to pay any damages. Usually the case is over the choice of words Consumer Reports chooses for it's reviews. If they actually accused Consumer Reports of making things up the case would go like this.



The reason you think BMW is so great may be because you have never owned a Lexus.

Wrong, I've test driven Lexus'; many, in fact. My grandpa has an Infiniti M35x, My friend has a Lexus GS, My father's friend has a LX450 and another friend has a GX. I've test driven the GS, IS, and LS at dealerships. I simply find the handling to be inferior, actually I feel that the BMW has the best handling I've ever tried save for some rather expensive sports cars. The suspension to me is much better on BMW's, Lexus' sedans have very "boaty" feeling handling and suspension to me and the sportier models are too rough, much more so than the BMW 3 series.

I find that BMW's have a fair balance between the two, also I feel like the transmission, particularly the first two gears transition much smoother on BMW than Lexus mainly because the BMW is heavier. BMW's have a much smoother ride in my opinion.


I don't mean to be argumentative, its MY OPINION which I am entitled to. You have your opinion, do not make statements like "you have never owned a Lexus" if you don't know, having driven one is enough to form a valid opinion. My next door neighbour is a leasing agent, I can test drive any car I want by knocking on his door.


As far as the Consumer Reports issue is concerned, I'm not surprised that they have lots of data to back up their claims, the validity of that data is questionable. The judge doesn't get in the car with a stopwatch to verify that it goes 0-60MPH in X seconds. The outcome of a lawsuit does not determine the truth. There are many convicts who have been released from prison because it was later determined that their convictions were wrong. And this was in criminal cases where the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt and not a civil case like you are suggesting where only a preponderance of the evidence is the standard. Please don't argue with me about law suits I'm typing this from Law School.

[cb951303]

quoting myself from another thread. it also reflects my idea about the ops question.



I did a 2 months of internship in a Reanult factory (the best one among all renault factories according to sales numbers). First day, they showed us the production volume of other companies. GM (general motors) is the biggest but also the only one losing money. The second one was Toyota. When I asked engineers about the quality of Toyotas, they all agreed that Toyota is at least 50 years ahead of its time's production technology. You can't get any more objective than that. Reanult engineers praising Toyota...so I don't know about Hondas but I know that Toyotas are good

another person replying me from the same thread

I did an internship at a Ford factory. Every production supervisor had a copy of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Way-Jeffrey-Liker/dp/0071392319) on his desk.

[Depressed Man]

As far as the Consumer Reports issue is concerned, I'm not surprised that they have lots of data to back up their claims, the validity of that data is questionable. The judge doesn't get in the car with a stopwatch to verify that it goes 0-60MPH in X seconds. The outcome of a lawsuit does not determine the truth. There are many convicts who have been released from prison because it was later determined that their convictions were wrong. And this was in criminal cases where the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt and not a civil case like you are suggesting where only a preponderance of the evidence is the standard. Please don't argue with me about law suits I'm typing this from Law School.

If your in Law School you should at least know that the existence of data itself usually outweighs the validity of it (sadly). Or what they may be teaching you is different then how the courts actually operate due to time constraints. For example the RIAA and MPAA's actions in court (their evidence is pretty flimsy usually).

[getaboat]

My ford has been to the moon and is still going OK - but I am going to replace it soon before it gets to 200K miles.

When I asked my garage what car they want to look after next they said Toyota. Yes there is wear and tear but the big bits are bomb proof.

And have you seen the price of a 2nd hand Lexus LS4x? They go on forever.

I still fancy a beamer though!

[Thelasko]

About diesel, you are wrong... There are a few trucks made by American manufacturers that take diesel.


However, I might consider buying one of VW's diesel cars, as they are the only company to offer a diesel car in the United States.

Diesels were were not offered in 2007 because they could not comply with EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions regulations. I've had a difficult time finding information on this, but Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/diesel/2008/beforebuy.html) says Jeep, Mercedes and VW are the only diesel options for 2008. As I said earlier, I might consider buying the VW, if I was in the market for a car.

Edit: The LA times (http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-neil26-2008sep26,0,532475.story)says

The Jetta TDI was the first European-made diesel car certified in all 50 states, passing even California's super-strict emissions standards. It went on sale in August.

[ugm6hr]

I thought Vauxhall was British...
I like them both.

I thought Vauxhall and Opel are merely national (or regional) brand identities of GM (General Motors), which is Detroit's finest car maker (probably). They are also the biggest in the world (or maybe that's Toyota by now).

[Thelasko]

German. I'd rather have a BMW, Audi or Mercedes over a Nissan or Toyota any day. They cost a lot more, but with good reason.

Apples to apples. You have to compare BMW, Audi, and Mercedes to Acura, Lexus, and Infinity.

[Thelasko]

Name one Japanese car below $45,000 that will rival a BMW 3 Series in terms of performance. There is a reason why BMW is the standard for what a driving enthusiasts car should be.

My RSX Type-S, and I saved $22,000.

[Icehuck]

My RSX Type-S

And you would notice you don't have anywhere near the handling

[Thelasko]

And you would notice you don't have anywhere near the handling

Keep telling yourself that.:lolflag:

[blazercist]

If your in Law School you should at least know that the existence of data itself usually outweighs the validity of it (sadly). Or what they may be teaching you is different then how the courts actually operate due to time constraints. For example the RIAA and MPAA's actions in court (their evidence is pretty flimsy usually).


What you've said about the existance of the data outweighing the validity of the data actually supports my contention, perhaps I misread or you miswrote your post and we agree? I have contributed to a discussion about an RIAA law suit that was recently in the news, I can't find the link ATM but, I did explain in that thread that just because they have evidence doesn't make their contention true, and even if the court rules in their favor doesn't mean that all the facts and data they asserted in court
are true.

[lisati]

My mother-in-law has a Mercedes and a van by Toyota. Get that!

[nnamdi]

dey both got their good sides but for now i prefer a japan made car cos i can afford it while i wish to own a good german car

[blazercist]

Keep telling yourself that.:lolflag:

Please do your research, there are MANY feature missing from the RSX that are standard on the 3 series.

http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe-hatchback/2006-acura-rsx-type/4507-10867_7-31351109.html?tag=mncol;rnav

Theres also a huge difference in horsepower http://www.rsportscars.com/acura/2005-acura-rsx-type-s/ 210HP for the RSX while the BMW 335ci has 300HP http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2009/3/335iCoupe/Features_and_Specs/Default.aspx


I'm a little pressed for time so I have to submit this post now but there are more things that the BMW 3 series has that the RSX lacks, I'm aware the link is for a 2006 and not the 2009. I'll be back.

[Icehuck]

Keep telling yourself that.:lolflag:

It has front wheel drive. Need I really say more?



I'm a little pressed for time so I have to submit this post now but there are more things that the BMW 3 series has that the RSX lacks, I'm aware the link is for a 2006 and not the 2009. I'll be back.

Don't bother its discontinued because the Civic was found to be superior.

[Thelasko]

Please do your research, there are MANY feature missing from the RSX that are standard on the 3 series.

http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe-hatchback/2006-acura-rsx-type/4507-10867_7-31351109.html?tag=mncol;rnav

Theres also a huge difference in horsepower http://www.rsportscars.com/acura/2005-acura-rsx-type-s/ 210HP for the RSX while the BMW 335ci has 300HP http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2009/3/335iCoupe/Features_and_Specs/Default.aspx


I'm a little pressed for time so I have to submit this post now but there are more things that the BMW 3 series has that the RSX lacks, I'm aware the link is for a 2006 and not the 2009. I'll be back.
Op said three series, he/she didn't specify which 3 series.
2006 325Ci is only 184hp (http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/Specifications/2006_BMW_3%20Series_29_Retail_Excellent.aspx?Selec tedTabIndex=1&Mileage=30000&SelectionHistory=29|29356|60445|0|0|) (2006 was the last year for an RSX, apples to apples)
2006 330Ci is 225hp (http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/Specifications/2006_BMW_3%20Series_43_Retail_Excellent.aspx?Selec tionHistory=43|29356|60445|0|0|&SelectedTabIndex=1&Mileage=30000)

[Depressed Man]

What you've said about the existance of the data outweighing the validity of the data actually supports my contention, perhaps I misread or you miswrote your post and we agree? I have contributed to a discussion about an RIAA law suit that was recently in the news, I can't find the link ATM but, I did explain in that thread that just because they have evidence doesn't make their contention true, and even if the court rules in their favor doesn't mean that all the facts and data they asserted in court
are true.

I guess I misread your post then (sorry I was reading it while there was a lull in class).

[gn2]

Name one Japanese car below $45,000 that will rival a BMW 3 Series in terms of performance.

These two :

Honda Accord Coupe

Honda S2000

And these two will rival supercars like Ferraris and Lamborghinis:

Subaru Impreza WRX Sti

Mitsubishi Evo X

[Icehuck]

These two :

Honda Accord Coupe

Honda S2000

And these two will rival supercars like Ferraris and Lamborghinis:

Subaru Impreza WRX Sti

Mitsubishi Evo X

You mentioned an Accord so I'm not taking your reply seriously. However, correct answer is the 135i from BMW. FYI the 135i is rated better all around then the EVO, which rates higher then the STI by MotorTrend.

[wersdaluv]

Where's the poll?

[kernelhaxor]

I've never owned a car so far so can't say ..
But if money wasn't an issue, I'd go for a German .. I guess in the long run, Japanese cars are more economical

[Thelasko]

These two :

Honda Accord Coupe

Honda S2000

And these two will rival supercars like Ferraris and Lamborghinis:

Subaru Impreza WRX Sti

Mitsubishi Evo X

I was about to say the same thing, but the forums went down. A buddy of mine just traded his 3 series, for an Accord. He wont say why. He was a huge BMW fanboy. My guess is that he finally realized he spent a bunch of money on a name. :lolflag:

[gn2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml

Fastest Mitsubishi 1.24.8
Fastest BMW 1.26.0

Stock WRX Sti 1.28.2
Stock Evo X 1.28.22

Stock BMW M3 1.31.8

The M3 is a much faster car than the US BMW 335i

But if you want to really go fast and can stretch to $65k, you'll not get better fun for your money than an Ariel Atom (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA).

[Icehuck]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml

Fastest Mitsubishi 1.24.8
Fastest BMW 1.26.0

Stock WRX Sti 1.28.2
Stock Evo X 1.28.22

Stock BMW M3 1.31.8

The M3 is a much faster car than the US BMW 335i

But if you want to really go fast and can stretch to $65k, you'll not get better fun for your money than an Ariel Atom (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA).

Ah yes the lap numbers from Top Gear whose Driver is known for not being able to stay on the track.

Ford Focus ST 1.34.9
Volvo S60R 1.35.0
Ferrari 575M 1.35.2

See something wrong with those numbers?

Or maybe how about these?

Roush Mustang 1.28.0
Marcos TSO GT2 1.28.2
Subaru WRX Sti 1.28.2
Mitsubishi Evo X 1.28.22
Dodge Viper SRT-10 1.28.5


Since when is the Roush Mustang better on a road course then the Viper SRT-10? The same Viper SRT-10 thats rated almost the same as the Corvette Z06 from Car and Driver, Road & Track, and MotorTrend? Yet here the Z06 is almost at the top of the list and the Viper is so far below?

The 1/4 mile time, figure 8,skip pad tests for the SRT-10 are a great indicator of how it beats the Roush.

Roush
Quarter mile 13.8 sec @ 100.9 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph 117 ft
Lateral acceleration 0.94 g (avg)
MT figure eight 25.5 sec @ 0.71 g (avg)

Viper
Quarter mile 11.7 sec @ 124.4 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph 102 ft
Lateral acceleration 0.99 g
MT figure eight 24.3 sec @ 0.80 g (avg)

From MotorTrend

Top Gear is interesting show but is continuously full of FUD.

[syms]

I should say that bmw is much worse than honda. Ive had challenge race with my 1987 honda accord 2.0 (94 kw) vs bmw 525 2.5 (not sure how many kw it has got). And you know what? My honda won the race. Because honda cars are way much more lightweight, and bmw cars are total pigs! Also my honda is much more economic and much more faster than bmw 525. I know that germany cars never be as good as japan cars.
P.S. I really did race and im not joking

[gn2]

Ah yes the lap numbers from Top Gear whose Driver is known for not being able to stay on the track.

Ford Focus ST 1.34.9
Volvo S60R 1.35.0
Ferrari 575M 1.35.2

See something wrong with those numbers?

Or maybe how about these?

Roush Mustang 1.28.0
Marcos TSO GT2 1.28.2
Subaru WRX Sti 1.28.2
Mitsubishi Evo X 1.28.22
Dodge Viper SRT-10 1.28.5


Since when is the Roush Mustang better on a road course then the Viper SRT-10? The same Viper SRT-10 thats rated almost the same as the Corvette Z06 from Car and Driver, Road & Track, and MotorTrend? Yet here the Z06 is almost at the top of the list and the Viper is so far below?

The 1/4 mile time, figure 8,skip pad tests for the SRT-10 are a great indicator of how it beats the Roush.

Roush
Quarter mile 13.8 sec @ 100.9 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph 117 ft
Lateral acceleration 0.94 g (avg)
MT figure eight 25.5 sec @ 0.71 g (avg)

Viper
Quarter mile 11.7 sec @ 124.4 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph 102 ft
Lateral acceleration 0.99 g
MT figure eight 24.3 sec @ 0.80 g (avg)

From MotorTrend

Top Gear is interesting show but is continuously full of FUD.

You have drifted off-topic to American cars...?
Straight line drag racing or round and round in circles is all they're good for.
Really good cars have a thing called handling.
By and large, American cars don't.

All TopGear laptimes are provided by The Stig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stig#Identity), a superhuman driving godmachine who never falls off the track.
The individual famed for his off track antics on Top gear is Michael Gambon (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002091/), an actor.

The challenge was to list two Japanese cars with better performance than a BMW335i for under $45,000.
The Evo X and the WRX Sti both do, for well under $45,000.

How much is a Viper or a Roush Mustang?

[tsali]

BMW 3 Series.

I currently own an Accord. I had a 330 before. The 330 was far better.

[mips]

You have drifted off-topic to American cars...?
Straight line drag racing or round and round in circles is all they're good for.
Really good cars have a thing called handling.
By and large, American cars don't.

All TopGear laptimes are provided by The Stig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stig#Identity), a superhuman driving godmachine who never falls off the track.
The individual famed for his off track antics on Top gear is Michael Gambon (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002091/), an actor.


The Stig I think still holds the lap time record on the F1 drivers board. I did however see him loose it in a corner before but it was not his fault. He was pushing the car but it lacked down force. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61FBFc0R-eM

Michael Gambons antics were funny, good they named the corner after him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfUliBQ1NN0

[Icehuck]

You have drifted off-topic to American cars...?
Straight line drag racing or round and round in circles is all they're good for.
Really good cars have a thing called handling.
By and large, American cars don't.

All TopGear laptimes are provided by The Stig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stig#Identity), a superhuman driving godmachine who never falls off the track.
The individual famed for his off track antics on Top gear is Michael Gambon (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002091/), an actor.

The challenge was to list two Japanese cars with better performance than a BMW335i for under $45,000.
The Evo X and the WRX Sti both do, for well under $45,000.

How much is a Viper or a Roush Mustang?

Its called discrediting his information with a source.

[gn2]

Its called discrediting his information with a source.

Who's information and what source?

How about some more evidence?

Nurburgring (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times#Production_vehicles )

WRX Sti 8.06
EVO VI 8.24 (the X would be quicker)
BMW335i 8.26

[Icehuck]

Who's information and what source?

How about some more evidence?

Nurburgring (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times#Production_vehicles )

WRX Sti 8.06
EVO VI 8.24 (the X would be quicker)
BMW335i 8.26

As what I said it was from MotorTrend. Guess you don't know anything about one of the biggest car magazine companies in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Trend

Those times I quoted above are from their numbers.

And about that link you gave, it corresponds with what I said about top gears numbers being pure BS.

NEXT!

[gn2]

As what I said it was from MotorTrend. Guess you don't know anything about one of the biggest car magazine companies in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Trend

Those times I quoted above are from their numbers.

And about that link you gave, it corresponds with what I said about top gears numbers being pure BS.

NEXT!

Big circulation, but not published many places though, unlike Top Gear magazine which is truly international and published in many countries.

I've never heard of Motor Trend till this thread, why would I, it don't exist here.

[tsali]

It's not about numbers unless you're actually racing these things.

My Accord is almost perfect in the way it goes about transporting me around. It handles well, get wonderful fuel economy and very comfortable. I don't regret buying it. However, its almost invisible. Boring. Sensible shoes. Borders on fuddy-duddy.

However, my previous BMW 330 handled, rode, accelerated and behaved wonderfully. Driving position was PERFECT. It had a few more mechanical quirks than the Accord, but driving and owning this machine was such a joy that they were really no bother. Both men and women looked at it...and me...with envy. It was most certainly NOT invisible.

If I had my last purchase to go over, I would have bought a BMW...even a used one. This doesn't make the Accord a BAD car...just a boring one.

[syms]

It's not about numbers unless you're actually racing these things.

My Accord is almost perfect in the way it goes about transporting me around. It handles well, get wonderful fuel economy and very comfortable. I don't regret buying it. However, its almost invisible. Boring. Sensible shoes. Borders on fuddy-duddy.

However, my previous BMW 330 handled, rode, accelerated and behaved wonderfully. Driving position was PERFECT. It had a few more mechanical quirks than the Accord, but driving and owning this machine was such a joy that they were really no bother. Both men and women looked at it...and me...with envy. It was most certainly NOT invisible.

If I had my last purchase to go over, I would have bought a BMW...even a used one. This doesn't make the Accord a BAD car...just a boring one.

I totally disagree. Honda's cars are better than bmw's, also bmw looks ugly, its probably ugliest car in the world. Everyone says that bmw is boring, it has no style, so sport style, and honda have everythink what sport car should have, and of course sportish designe. Honda cars are very comfortable and lightweight, but bmw arent comfortably theres no enough space in car even in 7 series :O . bmw sucks my balls, honda is much better. And you think that bmw is better just because everyone looks at you when you driving it? :lolflag:

[CrazyArcher]

Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world for a reason :) IMO they deliver the biggets bang for the buck.

[user-max]

Ok, Im probably gonna get ripped apart for this one...

Anyone who thinks that Toyota (or Japanese) is THE BEST here's why:

QUOTE released by Consumer Report, which all of "educated" drivers abide by:

No More Automatic Recommendations for Toyota

Because of its findings, Consumer Reports will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker’s excellent track record, even if the publication didn’t have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, Consumer Reports said it may resume this practice.

Typically, the publication will only recommend a vehicle if the magazine has at least one year of reliability data for that specific model.

(http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/10/consumer-reports-toyota-quality-sees-cracks-in-its-armor.html)

To think, that they were AUTOMATICALLY recommending Japanese cars is very ridiculous and misleading practice. However, people are blind :)

There is no longer such a thing as "one car better than the other" or more reliable or anything to that extent. Especially in current market, when every soul out there is trying to squeeze out every profit penny out of the dealerships, and low sales across the world, which ultimately leads to cutting costs for all manufacturers. That means quality gets hindered globally. Back in the day I remember German cars were the most reliable cars ever. But nowadays, when both BMW and Mercedes make cars available for a very low price, they simply cant afford to produce at the standards that their business model was brought up to do.

Feature wise? Automatic headlight control? Factory remote start? Keyless trunk entry? Is that a Lexus? No, thats standard on MOST GM cars:)
To think that Hondas up untill 2002 or 2003 came standard with tape decks is ridiculous:) Wake up guys and gals, and smell the tomatoes. Do your own research, and think for yourself.



Im not even talking about maintenance and parts cost and overall cost of ownership comparing domestic vs foreign cars.


Thats it, I welcome constructive criticism:)

Just be gentle.

[hcaleman]

Depends on what you want. You want a reliable, economical, low maintennance, comfortable commuter get a japanese car.

You want a heavy touring sedan, I tend to like the german cars better. Sports cars, well it really depends on what you like.

I've had all kinds of cars, I have a japanese car for track only use (Nissan), my current commuter is an Audi S6 (C5 V8 model). I've always liked nissan sports cars, they are light, simple (up until the new GT-R), handle well, and take plenty of abuse. I can pull the car apart myself, swap what I need to and get it back on the road quickly, great car for the track/weekend sports car.

As a commuter the Audi is fun, it's built solid. I've had G35's and other Japanese sedans, they're stiff too and handle well, but don't compare to the S6. The interior is definitely nicer than most materials used in Japanese cars, and well the power is great compared to your usual V6 or used in Japanse sedans. However the maintenance costs, being german are a pain in the ***. My S6 uses four pads per caliper up front, just had to do the scheduled timing belt change (yeah fun), being AWD I have a front CV that is due for a change.

[user-max]

[QUOTE=gn2;6125063]You have drifted off-topic to American cars...?
Straight line drag racing or round and round in circles is all they're good for.
Really good cars have a thing called handling.
By and large, American cars don't.


Have you ever drove over a speed bump on on a rough road in a japanese car? Unless you like shaken baby syndrome, I highly doubt that japanese cars are better ride than say Impala? Crown Vic? even a starter car liek Cobalt:) Go test drive some stuff out there..

[gn2]

You have drifted off-topic to American cars...?
Straight line drag racing or round and round in circles is all they're good for.
Really good cars have a thing called handling.
By and large, American cars don't.


Have you ever drove over a speed bump on on a rough road in a japanese car? Unless you like shaken baby syndrome, I highly doubt that japanese cars are better ride than say Impala? Crown Vic? even a starter car liek Cobalt:) Go test drive some stuff out there..

I have driven a selection of American cars.
Speed bumps exist to make you slow down, not to demonstrate how soft your suspension is.
It is the soft suspension of typical American cars that make them handle so badly.

[rudihawk]

Japan. No doubt about it. They are reliable and solid.

[OMJD]

I am a BMW fan, so I'd say I prefer German cars. I love the styling (the aggressive looks), the way they perform, the handling, the build quality, and the smooth, quiet ride which the normal 3 series delivers.

My father has a BMW 325is, which is the sport model. It's fun to drive but its stiff suspension just makes it really uncomfortable for the longer trips. You literally feel every bump. I much prefer the ride of my 318i SE, even if it is a bit slower lol.

I have driven many different cars, and I've yet to drive one which I prefer. Although if I ever got the chance to drive a Mercedes, I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up being tempted lol.

[samjh]

I've put a lot of mileage in cars from both cars (Toyotas and Mercs, to be specific). They're both good.

My current car is a Toyota, which runs without any problems whatsoever. Previous Toyotas I've driven have also been of high quality.

Previous drives have included two generations of Mercs, which were very old, but still ran quite well. The problem with Mercs is that maintenance and parts are expensive, but they're as reliable as Toyotas.

Build quality is impressive from both makes.

Personally, I'd buy Japanese cars due to price. Sure, German cars are prestigious, but I place more value on practicality rather than illusionary status. :p Maybe in Germany where German cars are relatively cheap, I'd go for the locals. ;)

[tsali]

I totally disagree. Honda's cars are better than bmw's, also bmw looks ugly, its probably ugliest car in the world. Everyone says that bmw is boring, it has no style, so sport style, and honda have everythink what sport car should have, and of course sportish designe. Honda cars are very comfortable and lightweight, but bmw arent comfortably theres no enough space in car even in 7 series :O . bmw sucks my balls, honda is much better. And you think that bmw is better just because everyone looks at you when you driving it?

Sounds like you have extensive ownership experience with both cars...I bow to your wisdom...NOT


honda have everythink what sport car should have

Like front wheel drive?

[cloudybutnice]

Japan wins hands down for me. I've been driving Mazda MX5's for 15+ years, and just love them. Got a new one in June and love it to bits. The value for money is amazing and it goes like a dream.

[gn2]

Like front wheel drive?

As used on the multi winning Saab 93 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_93#Racing_history) and 96 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_96)?

And the Mini Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_Cooper#The_Mini_Cooper_and_Cooper_S:_1961-2000)?

[syms]

Sounds like you have extensive ownership experience with both cars...I bow to your wisdom...NOT



Like front wheel drive?

If car has front wheel drive, this dont means that its not fully sportish. Actualy lightweight cars must have front wheel drive. And bmw is doing big foult that it never manufactures cars with front wheel drive.

[gn2]

If car has front wheel drive, this dont means that its not fully sportish. Actualy lightweight cars must have front wheel drive. And bmw is doing big foult that it never manufactures cars with front wheel drive.

I know which I would rather have on a loose surface or in snow.

The fences and ditches fill up with BMW's during winter hereabouts :D

[Thelasko]

I know which I would rather have on a loose surface or in snow.

The fences and ditches fill up with BMW's during winter hereabouts :D

There's a reason why front wheel drive is so popular. If RWD was better, hands down, everyone would be driving RWD. After all, RWD is less complex, and therefore cheaper.

If a car has a good weight distribution, and a proper suspension, RWD can have it's advantages in high performance driving. In every day driving, I'm going with FWD.

I'm surprised there are no Audi fans praising AWD.

[andras artois]

Japanese cars are meant to be the balance between affordability and performance.

[tsali]

There's a reason why front wheel drive is so popular....After all, RWD is less complex, and therefore cheaper.


That reason has nothing to do with "handling" or "sportiness". It has to do with manufacturing ease and packaging efficiency. The handling of FWD cars is generally slow and predictable...just what is needed to inspire confidence in the majority of drivers. Additionally, it has some advantages off-road or in bad weather, but you'll notice the better rally cars are 4wd...including the Audi cars. There are practical limits to how much steering and driving work you can make the front tires do at the same time.

Manufacturing RWD cars is not "cheaper". The engine and transaxle assembly can be installed as unit in one fell swoop, unlike the effort needed to connect RWD drive components on the line.

I do not see very many front-wheel drive Corvettes, Vipers, S2000s, Miatas, Mustangs, Ferraris, etc. I do not see FWD GP or F1 cars. How many FWD MOTORCYCLES have you seen?

RWD does not necessarily make the car sporty...pickups and SUVs have RWD but I don't consider them "sporty".

Lastly, comparatively speaking, the Mini and the Saabs noted do not fall into my "sporting" category. Neither do any of the FWD Audis or VWs. The Quattros and the R32 certainly make the cut.

As with all front-wheel-drive cars, it's possible to make them go fast and drive well...but you know what they say about putting lipstick on a pig...

Don't get me wrong...I love my Accord. It's a good car...but it doesn't drive nearly as well as BMW I owned previously. The fact that I can't carry as much cargo is irrelevant...if I wanted to do that, I'd buy a van...

[mips]

I do not see very many front-wheel drive Corvettes, Vipers, S2000s, Miatas, Mustangs, Ferraris, etc. I do not see FWD GP or F1 cars. How many FWD MOTORCYCLES have you seen?

When moving to higher power ranges it is more likely that a vehicle will be rear wheel drive for several reasons, torque steer, putting power to the ground etc.

FWD for a motorcycle is less practicle than RWD. I did see a Yamaha in the Dakar race that had AWD but there was less power on the front wheel.

[gn2]

Lastly, comparatively speaking, the Mini and the Saabs noted do not fall into my "sporting" category.

12th place overall at Le Mans is pretty sporty, as is winning the Monte Carlo rally ;)

[tsali]

12th place overall at Le Mans is pretty sporty, as is winning the Monte Carlo rally


Links please. I do not find any FWD cars in the recent race result for either of these. Most of the cars in these races are 4wd versions of their road going counterparts.

Why are you guys so hung up on numbers? Like I said, they can be made to go fast...doesn't mean I'd want to drive one.

[kk0sse54]

neither, instead Swedish cars :D http://www.tuningnews.net/wallpaper/1024x768/koenigsegg_ccxr_special_edition-01.jpg

[gn2]

Links please.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=6167085&postcount=73

[tsali]

Ok...THOSE links

Did you notice those car are ANCIENT? Handling was a novel concept in those days.

Show me something recent.

[gn2]

Show me something recent.

Touring cars. World Touring Car 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_World_Touring_Car_Championship_season) Drivers Championship positions 1-4 FWD, best RWD driver 5th
Manufacturer's championship winner Seat FWD had double the number of race wins than BMW RWD.

That's just one series, FWD do well in most Touring car racing championships.

[user-max]

I have driven a selection of American cars.
Speed bumps exist to make you slow down, not to demonstrate how soft your suspension is.
It is the soft suspension of typical American cars that make them handle so badly.


I guess thats why cops drive american cars, because they handle worse than jap cars :)

Good ride doesnt mean it handles bad. I hate clunky rides, and quite frankly, my Jeep and Sunfire handle better than any Toyota or Honda for the same price. I used to sell cars, and driven every car out there.

When I see a person with brand new corolla coming to the dealership and begging to get out of it because they hate the way it drives, it makes you understand whats up.

[mips]

I hate clunky rides, and quite frankly, my Jeep and Sunfire handle better than any Toyota or Honda for the same price.

:lolflag:

[gn2]

I guess thats why cops drive american cars, because they handle worse than jap cars :)

Good ride doesnt mean it handles bad. I hate clunky rides, and quite frankly, my Jeep and Sunfire handle better than any Toyota or Honda for the same price. I used to sell cars, and driven every car out there.

When I see a person with brand new corolla coming to the dealership and begging to get out of it because they hate the way it drives, it makes you understand whats up.

Guess you like what's familiar to you.

Same reason people use Windows.

Doesn't make it better....

[user-max]

Guess you like what's familiar to you.

Same reason people use Windows.

Doesn't make it better....

Its not that I like familiar, just I've driven them all, and have owned a few cars in my life. I guess to each their own, just I hate to see people discarding things without even trying.

For example, I used to have an old 318 i came straight from Germany. Nice straight 6, AWD, 5 speed. Great car, until one day alternator went and it cost 900 bucks to fix it. On the other side, when alternator went in my Jeep, it only cost 250 bucks to fix, plus I could put it in myself, without having to take out the engine. Go figure...

Friend of mine is a great Integra enthusiast. I like my Camaros. And always, always is a big battle whats best. However, when time came to rebuld his vtech, he just sold the car, because it was way too pricey to do.

When we are talking about japanese cars of any sort, you have to take into consideration the maintenance on those cars. For example, are you guys aware that you have to replace timing belts every now and then? Do you know what it costs?

Quite contrary, on a domestic vehicle, there are no timing belts, there are timing chains, which will never rip or tear. I have yet to replace a timing chain:) My camaro has 250000 km on it and never had to do it.

Another analogy... What do you call 1979 Civic? A piece of junk. How about a 1979 Camaro or Corvette? A classic car. There must be a good reason why there arent so many old japanese cars on the road... Think hard why.

[user-max]

Someone mentioned something about Toyota being 50 years ahead of its time... Quite strange, cuz I would hate 50 years from now to still turn on my headlights manually and put down my groceries to open up a trunk:)

[gn2]

Wonder why there so few American built cars in Europe..... ?

[mips]

When we are talking about japanese cars of any sort, you have to take into consideration the maintenance on those cars. For example, are you guys aware that you have to replace timing belts every now and then? Do you know what it costs?


It does not cost much and is only done every 90 000km or so.

Price seems to be relative to where you live. The prices you quoted for alternators seem way excessive to me and I would never pay that amount of money for someting like a alternator.
I think you guys in the states get ripped off.

[phen]

Wonder why there so few American built cars in Europe..... ?

I think because they need too much fuel? they often have bad handling qualitites and they are way too big for the european streets and cities.

thats what most people over here think of us-cars ;-)

i opt for german cars, btw ;-)

[AllenGG]

Misleading !
The Nissan you buy might be made in Mexico.
The Honda ? Ohio or Ontario.
Had Nissans made in Japan, a Maxima, great car, expensive to repair, and rust, rust, rust.
VW's, no longer made in Mexico, now poor quality.
Me ? back to Ford. Boring, comfortable, quiet,safe. runs like new after 5 years.

[user-max]

Wonder why there so few American built cars in Europe..... ?

ok, here are a few of just GM brands in Europe: Chevrolet, Cadillac, Opel, Vauxhal, Hummer, Saab...

[user-max]

It does not cost much and is only done every 90 000km or so.

Price seems to be relative to where you live. The prices you quoted for alternators seem way excessive to me and I would never pay that amount of money for someting like a alternator.
I think you guys in the states get ripped off.

I didnt realize South Africa was very rich coutry, where prices were irrelevant:)

What I ment by 900 bucks for that alternator was that I couldnt fix it myself, so it had to be done at the dealership, because of the stupid way the car was built, that in order to get at the alternator, you had to take out the engine.

PS. Montreal is in Canada.

[user-max]

I think because they need too much fuel? they often have bad handling qualitites and they are way too big for the european streets and cities.

thats what most people over here think of us-cars ;-)

i opt for german cars, btw ;-)

I myself is from Europe, and that is a ridiculous thought. I remember people loved thought of nice powerful cars, that were either german or american. Maybe you guys prefer driving a daewoo where you are, i dont know. I like power, so i dont have to get out of the car and push it uphill if you know what i mean:)

Besides, that 318i burned as much fuel as my Jeep, so dont tell me your german cars are fuel efficient.

[user-max]

Misleading !
The Nissan you buy might be made in Mexico.
The Honda ? Ohio or Ontario.
Had Nissans made in Japan, a Maxima, great car, expensive to repair, and rust, rust, rust.
VW's, no longer made in Mexico, now poor quality.
Me ? back to Ford. Boring, comfortable, quiet,safe. runs like new after 5 years.

There you go:)

[mips]

I didnt realize South Africa was very rich coutry, where prices were irrelevant:)

It's not.




What I ment by 900 bucks for that alternator was that I couldnt fix it myself, so it had to be done at the dealership, because of the stupid way the car was built, that in order to get at the alternator, you had to take out the engine.

What year and model was the car?




PS. Montreal is in Canada.

I know. Apologies I just saw $ and did not look at your location, assumptions are a bad thing. Could just as well have been Zim$ which would have been for free. Some of your neighbours actually think you are part of the USA ;)

[gn2]

ok, here are a few of just GM brands in Europe: Chevrolet, Cadillac, Opel, Vauxhal, Hummer, Saab...

With the exceptions of Hummer and Cadillac, none of those brands market American cars in Europe.
Chevrolet in Europe is a re-brand of Daewoo and the cars are Korean.

Cars built in America do not sell well in Europe.
Anyway the thread isn't about American cars....

The answer to the thread question as far as the European market is concerned, in terms of reliability, it's definitely Japanese brands.

[user-max]

It's not.




What year and model was the car?




I know. Apologies I just saw $ and did not look at your location, assumptions are a bad thing. Could just as well have been Zim$ which would have been for free. Some of your neighbours actually think you are part of the USA ;)

Its ok :) Sorry if I seemed rude or anything.

It was an old 1986 BMW 318i E30 with sports package. I fell in love with that car for its power and cool features at the time.

[user-max]

With the exceptions of Hummer and Cadillac, none of those brands market American cars in Europe.
Chevrolet in Europe is a re-brand of Daewoo and the cars are Korean.

Cars built in America do not sell well in Europe.
Anyway the thread isn't about American cars....

The answer to the thread question as far as the European market is concerned, in terms of reliability, it's definitely Japanese brands.

Apologize, but one last post. In my last visit back to my mamaland Ukraine, I frequently say a yellow bowtie, not Daewoo. I even saw yellow bowtied dealerships. Go figure.

[user-max]

And the answer each person will find for themselves. If you like german cars, you will buy german cars. If you like japaneese cars, you will buy japaneese cars. No one person can make another person prefer other products. Its simple.

[phen]

I myself is from Europe, and that is a ridiculous thought. I remember people loved thought of nice powerful cars, that were either german or american. Maybe you guys prefer driving a daewoo where you are, i dont know. I like power, so i dont have to get out of the car and push it uphill if you know what i mean:)

Besides, that 318i burned as much fuel as my Jeep, so dont tell me your german cars are fuel efficient.


detroit is going bancrupt at the moment, so it seems other people share my thoughts.

by the way, mercedes have extra large engines built into their cars for the us customer. i think for the s-class.

what do you think about the plans to support detroit with government(tax)-money?


a last note: opel is a GM brand. it is cash flow positive at the moment, exept that GM owes opel about 7billion dollars. opel is developed and built in germany, and in the UK (vauxhall)

opel are not us-cars ;-)

[Yezinki]

Japanese cars are better, keeping in mind all features.

As far as extra safety & luxuries are concerned German are ahead.

My views,

Regards,

Yezinki.

[cityismine]

I'd have to take Japan over the Germans. Germans make very good machines, their printing presses are the best in the world. But they've lost the automotive reliability race to the Japanese.

Remember when Toyota rolled out Lexus in the 80s, and the Europeans laughed at them, after all who'd wanna buy a Japanese luxury car. Forward to today, Lexus is the #1 luxury brand.

[gn2]

Forward to today, Lexus is the #1 luxury brand.

You are offered use of a Rolls Royce or a Lexus for a year as a free gift.

Which one do you take?

Still think Lexus are number 1?

[Screwdriver0815]

Lexus? Number 1? Where?

I would say: Alfa Romeo! Okay its neither german nor japanese but its reliable, nice, sporty... its perfect! At least for me.

Everyone has to make this decision on his own - which car fits better to him. Thats it.

[mips]

You are offered use of a Rolls Royce or a Lexus for a year as a free gift.

Which one do you take?

Still think Lexus are number 1?

I would take the Rolls but it has nothing to do with reliability. I just want to sit in the back with my nose in the air and look down on people ;)

I would still say the lexus is a better car.

[mips]

I would say: Alfa Romeo! Okay its neither german nor japanese but its reliable, nice, sporty... its perfect! At least for me.


As much as I love Alfas I would definately not call them reliable. I actually think they are very unreliable, quirky etc. But yes, sporty, sexy, stylish and a great drive when it's actually working.

I would buy an Alfa for myself but I would NEVER recommend it to a friend.

[Screwdriver0815]

As much as I love Alfas I would definately not call them reliable. I actually think they are very unreliable, quirky etc. But yes, sporty, sexy, stylish and a great drive when it's actually working.

I would buy an Alfa for myself but I would NEVER recommend it to a friend.
okay... do you have one? So do you actually really know for sure if it is reliable or not?
I have one and no issues (not a single one!!) with it.

the image of Alfa being unreliable is the same like with Linux (commandline only) ;)

[RaZe42]

Lexus? Number 1? Where?

I would say: Alfa Romeo! Okay its neither german nor japanese but its reliable, nice, sporty... its perfect! At least for me.

Everyone has to make this decision on his own - which car fits better to him. Thats it.

Alfa Romeo? Reliable? They're the most unreliable cars in their price segment!

And the same with Fiat.

I'd take a BMW or Mercedes over an Alfa any day.

EDIT: Yes, they're sexy. But it sucks that you have to put the registration plate on the side(front).

[Screwdriver0815]

Alfa Romeo? Reliable? They're the most unreliable cars in their price segment!

And the same with Fiat.

I'd take a BMW or Mercedes over an Alfa any day.

EDIT: Yes, they're sexy. But it sucks that you have to put the registration plate on the side(front).
doesn't matter if you think its unrelieable. Its for sure not. :D the number plate on the side... yes because a central numberplate looks ugly at an Alfa.

Anyway, please make sure that you use the right lane on the Autobahn with your high-quality :lolflag: german supercar :D so that I can arrive faster :D

[PuddingKnife]

Never owned a German vehicle, but I will say that I love my Subaru's to death.

[cityismine]

Aren't Alfas Italian, not German? How can they be reliable then? I'm sorry but Italians aren't very good engineers. Their products might be fashionable, definitely not reliable.

In WWII, their tanks in North Africa broke down in record numbers, eventually the Germans had to go in and bail them out. Just look at Lamborghini, very nice car, but how many times has the company gone bankrupt? Too many times!

[Screwdriver0815]

Aren't Alfas Italian, not German? How can they be reliable then? I'm sorry but Italians aren't very good engineers. Their products might be fashionable, definitely not reliable.

In WWII, their tanks in North Africa broke down in record numbers, eventually the Germans had to go in and bail them out. Just look at Lamborghini, very nice car, but how many times has the company gone bankrupt? Too many times!
maybe because all the electronics is german? When I open the bonnet of my car, all I see is Bosch...
Again the question is: do you own an italian car, do you know for sure that it is unreliable?

and who tells you that the german tanks were not broken down too? ;)

Italians are great engineers. They can engineer engines and chassis where others look stupid in comparison.

[Dr_Deadmeat]

Anyone knows that Mazda with their RX-8 is the best car that have seen the light of day, with the possible exception of RX-7.

The reason I think so, is that it is sporty (sounds good as well), good looking and it is japanese, which proves that it is reliable. RX-8 even has 4 seats and you can get it to run 250kph which is more than fast enought for any reasonable person.

Yours sincerely ;)

[RaZe42]

doesn't matter if you think its unrelieable. Its for sure not. :D the number plate on the side... yes because a central numberplate looks ugly at an Alfa.

Anyway, please make sure that you use the right lane on the Autobahn with your high-quality :lolflag: german supercar :D so that I can arrive faster :D


German *supercar*? Hell no! Koenigsegg FTW ;)

[Screwdriver0815]

German *supercar*? Hell no! Koenigsegg FTW ;)
Koenigsegg is swedish ;)

Supercar... I mean such a nice Bmw 318i? Fuelconsumption like an old gas guzzler and absolutly no power? No? :D too bad ;) :D but at least its german ;)

[drawkcab]

Subaru.

AWD + reliability = ftw

[MikeTheC]

Not that the OP asked, but American cars definitely aren't. :(

[geoken]

Anyone knows that Mazda with their RX-8 is the best car that have seen the light of day, with the possible exception of RX-7.

The reason I think so, is that it is sporty (sounds good as well), good looking and it is japanese, which proves that it is reliable. RX-8 even has 4 seats and you can get it to run 250kph which is more than fast enought for any reasonable person.

Yours sincerely ;)

The RX-7 was known to be an extremely unreliable car. People commonly joked that the only way to get a reliable RX-7 was with an SBC swap. Apex seals will own your bank book.

[gn2]

If the wankel rotary engine is so good, how come no-one apart from Mazda uses it?

[Screwdriver0815]

but the RX7 and RX8 are japanese! They MUST be reliable!! ;)

[Slug71]

Tesla - Model S :popcorn:

[RaZe42]

Tesla - Model S :popcorn:
+1 That sure is a sexy car, with decent preformance AFAIK too.

[Vostrocity]

I like both but lean towards the Germans. I can't think of single "boring" German car (ahem Camry).

[cariboo]

I had an RX-3, It was a great little car, the drive train was super reliable, it only let me down once, and that was during -40° C - F weather, before I could install a block heater. The warranty was excellent, I got a replcement engine at 80,000 miles (128,728km) under warranty because of poor water seals. I just can't say anything good about the rest of the car, there were several spots where the body rusted completely through after only 5 years.

[Screwdriver0815]

Tesla - Model S :popcorn:
Tesla is good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG3bMKR5eXk

[Screwdriver0815]

I like both but lean towards the Germans. I can't think of single "boring" German car (ahem Camry).
no?

Vw Golf?

Vw Jetta?

Vw Polo?

Passat?

Opel Astra?

Opel Corsa?

Ford Focus?

all boring like hell

[Ro86]

German cars are probably better for cruising on the autobahn at 150mph :)

[izizzle]

Japan: Targeted toward the average driver. Great mileage and affordable price. Sleek designs with good reliability.

Germany: Target their cars to a more subsiding group of drivers. Higher class engines give German cars the lead in performance and the 'thrill' of driving (The thrill that some Japanese cars can't provide). The prices of the cars are higher. The designs are amazing (IMHO).

[Screwdriver0815]

German cars are probably better for cruising on the autobahn at 150mph :)
... as are the italian ;) :D

@izizzle: but only the high-priced german cars. The low priced german cars are like the japanese

[Vostrocity]

no?

Vw Golf?

Vw Jetta?

Vw Polo?

Passat?

Opel Astra?

Opel Corsa?

Ford Focus?

all boring like hell

Nuh uh. None of those are boring in my mind. I don't know about every single one, but Golfs and Focus and Astras all have nice handling and should be good on curvy roads.

[zurack]

I would'nt have BMW given, unless I could sell it on :) seriously uncool car as it caters for a personality type, but yes the drivability is perfect and this and that are amazing blah blah!

I have had German and Japanese motors so pretty much on the fence

[speedwell68]

German cars, they last longer...

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/Speedwell68/DSCF5645.jpg

[HavocXphere]

Anything put into a German car invariably ends up in a Japanese brand the next year tech-wise.:rolleyes:

ABS, Stability control, Airbags etc

[WatchingThePain]

Audi's are good value for money but so are Toyota and most Japanese cars.
I once heard a rumour that Japan is good at copying and improving things.
Too many Ninja's is a good thing, now I want you to kiss a Ninja.

[dragos240]

Japanese cars hands down. :cool:

[WatchingThePain]

German cars, they last longer...

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/Speedwell68/DSCF5645.jpg

That is a beautiful photograph matey.

[Slug71]

+1 That sure is a sexy car, with decent preformance AFAIK too.

Yes it is and yes it does. I plan to start saving for a deposit for one soon.

No more gas for me in a few years. :p

[Tipped OuT]

German:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3361/bmwm3gtr.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bmwm3gtr.jpg)
Japan:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9093/supraatodogas.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supraatodogas.jpg)

I really don't know. If you want something cheap and reliable, I say Japan, if you want something expensive and good quality, I say German.

[dmizer]

If the wankel rotary engine is so good, how come no-one apart from Mazda uses it?

Probably nothing more than the complexity of manufacturing it. That and most shops are set up for the reciprocating engine. Also, early on, rotary engines got a bad press about failing apex seals to the point where the problem is still discussed today, even in this thread. Wankel managed to solve the problem, but not before significant PR damage had been done.

There have been several motorcycles and aircraft that use the Rotary engine though.

[AllenGG]

Time for a rude awakening !

How many of these cars are pure "Japanese", "German" etc ?
Hmmm ?
Almost all are composites.
Most of the German cars are made 'mostly' in Europe, or maybe Mexico ? Brasil?
The Japanese cars are made in:
1. Japan, 2. North America 3 Asia
So, let's look at the parts:
Engine, made where ?
Transmissions?

My Ford Sport Trac has a "Cologne engine". Made in Germany, now considered by Fomoco to be the most reliable engine, ever.
The car/truck will outlive me.
And yes, I blew the doors off: a BMW, and a Lexus.
HEHEHEH
from sunny Mazatlan
and nothing beats Ubuntu !8-)

[swoll1980]

US cars are the best.

[gn2]

There have been several motorcycles and aircraft that use the Rotary engine though.

And the bikes died a death because the fuel economy was dreadful.
In all the time I was involved in sport aviation, I never once saw a wankel aero engine.

[KiwiNZ]

I have a Japanesse car ( SUV) and a German . The later an Audi A6 and the SUV a Suzuki Grand Vitara. I have to say they are both very good vehicles.
I have had a few Japanese cars over the years and they are very reliable. I have also had a few German and the same applies. I believe they are equal

[Dr_Deadmeat]

I'd had one german car over the years, which is a Volkswagen Vento 1997mod (also called Bora or jetta), and it did cost me over 2000usd in repairs, while the car was worth 5000 usd (according to my insurance company), whilst our Toyota Hiace 1996mod didn't cause us any trouble until it reached 200 000km, and still haven't cost us more than 1000usd in repairs (I don't account for any routine services).

After my father crashed the VW vento, we got a Toyota Avensis 2008, and that works fine now... I'll post in about 10 years when I really know how reliable that car is.

Conclusion: Italian and french cars is the most reliable cars, whilst Japanese cars break if you look at them to harshly =P

[ohbuntu]

I used to own a Honda Accord and drive a Miata these days. IMO, Japanese cars are absolutely reliable. Heck, I could figure out most problems and repair them on my own. However, they aren't the cars I'd drive into town on a Friday night, IYKWIM. Most J cars are just too staid, too simple, too ordinary. Of course, there are some current exceptions like the S2000 and Miata but they are few and far between.

The "German" breed in my garage used to be a MINI CS (I consider German rather than English) which was replaced three months ago by the Audi A5. The G cars have a more rigorous maintenance schedule but if it weren't for the poor fuel economy, I'd drive them every single day. The A5 and MCS are cars that put a smile to your face every time you turn on the ignition.

Cars like the Accord and Corolla are meant for driving from A to B, whereas with cars like the A5, MCS and 335, you just want to drive and drive and drive.

[dmizer]

And the bikes died a death because the fuel economy was dreadful.
That's the truth. I rode a Suzuki RE5 on a trip once. Great/smooth ride, odd looking bike, interesting sound, but very thirsty.


In all the time I was involved in sport aviation, I never once saw a wankel aero engine.

This is the only production one I could find quickly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diamond-Katana-DA20.jpg

Others are admittedly "experimental".

[WatchingThePain]

I know the parts are from all over the world but...
when a company chooses parts that should mean that thay are saying..
"we could make that high quality part but why bother and we vet it and it's like we would make.."
So theoretically that should not matter.

Engine parts made by big Momma.

[Orlsend]

I live in the americas. both cars are not that popular over here. although parts wise I would think german cars are my choice.

[Jestersage]

Japan, of course. Who cares it can run on autobahn if it hits corner ALL THE TIME?

There's a good reason why a corolla is being called the best to run up and down mountains (though granted, it was the 1986 model...)

[Vostrocity]

I live in the americas. both cars are not that popular over here. although parts wise I would think german cars are my choice.

What are you talking about? The number of Japanese and German cars added together is definitely more than the Americans, especially now that only Ford is really standing.

[Regenweald]

Whichever has better gas consumption and better parts prices. American car makers just need to stop.

[Keith_Beef]

Vauxhall are part of General Motors.

Well, I think that Vauxhall is a part of Opel, which was part of General Motors for a while, but which is about to be set free and become part of Fiat.......


But to get back on topic.

German cars win for me.

I own a 1998 VW convertible, my wife has a 2006 Toyota Highlander. Two very different cars, for two very different uses. Each does its job well.

But although these are the only German or Japanese cars we've owned (others were Italian or French), I've ridden in and rented many, many different cars over the last thirty years. If I were to go out and look for another car, to buy with my own money, I'd take a German car over a Japanese car any day.

Japanese cars, all of them, look and feel cheap and plasticky. Even the so called "luxury" brands like Lexus.

As far as styling goes, the oriental brands are simply knock-offs of the European cars. I can't be the only person to have noticed how the Lexus is a Merc copy, the Hyundai Sonata is a counterfeit Jag...

The technology in the Japanese cars is on a par with the Germans, and maybe the quality is nearly on a par, but the feeling of solidity and good engineering in an VW/Audi, Merc or Porsche far outstrips that of a Toyota, Honda, Nissan or Lexus.

The Japanese get it right, though, in the Mazda MX-5 (Miata, for the US). But what were the Japanese engineers doing there? They were trying to update the 1960s small British sports cars like the Sprite, Spitfire and MGB! The RX-7 and RX-8 are probably almost as good.


K.

[MadCow108]

fiat actually lost the "bid".
Opel is now going to be part of the canadian auto part builder Magna.

New numbers from the (german) automobile club also say that german cars are more reliable then japanese (for the first time in years).
(german link: http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,528201,00.html
translation of the first paragraph (no warranty for errors):
Astonishing turnaround in the breakdown statistics of the ADAC(german automobile club): German cars are according to information of Spiegel (german news magazine) again the world most reliable. Far more reliable than the long unbeatable japanese competitors.)

but of course it's the german automobile club which reports that and the german auto lobby is very powerful ;)

edit: quoted article is of 2008 I just noticed :/
but 2009 is similar (again german link: http://www.rp-online.de/public/article/auto/ratgeber/697197/Die-zuverlaessigsten-Autos-2009.html)

[gn2]

Well, I think that Vauxhall is a part of Opel

Nope, both were part of GM Europe.

[Daremo_06]

US cars are the best.

You dont read news very often do you? Two of the 3 major american car companies are requiring life support due to their own bungling and utter mismanagement of their products over many years.

Ford is the only one of the 3 that is forward thinking and is still competitive.

So no, American cars are NOT the best. Unless the best to you means substandard materials/construction in comparison to similar cars at a similar price.

The American car companies are finally having to face the reality that years of junk like the Malibu and the Dodge Caliber and other utter disasters that have been sold to the American people under the guise they were good cars has driven them nearly out of business.

[Daremo_06]

Japan, of course. Who cares it can run on autobahn if it hits corner ALL THE TIME?

There's a good reason why a corolla is being called the best to run up and down mountains (though granted, it was the 1986 model...)

I highly doubt any Corolla in 86 would compete with Audi and its quattro AWD on *ANY* mountain. It dominated the Pikes Peak race for several years, was also extremely strong on the rally circuit. It was so dominating that after 3 years of racing in IMSA/GTO in the late 80s, AWD was banned.

Don't get me wrong, Toyota makes a good car and leads the world in some of their manufacturing techniques, but either your misquoting someone, or they are just flat out wrong.

[Orlsend]

What are you talking about? The number of Japanese and German cars added together is definitely more than the Americans, especially now that only Ford is really standing.

Most of the cars here a Ford,Chrysler,Fiat,Peugeot... as far as I know they are not Japanese nor German

[Daremo_06]

Most of the cars here a Ford,Chrysler,Fiat,Peugeot... as far as I know they are not Japanese nor German

Which America are you talking about? Because in North America (mainly, USA) there are no current model fiats or peugeots as they havent been imported in years.

[BazookaAce]

German. Fine, Japan has Toyota which is the "ever-running machine", but i prefer Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Bugatti (Bugatti is Italian, but the Volkswagen-Audi group owns it).

Just so we have a overview of Japanese and German cars, here's the brands:

GERMANY:

- Volkswagen
- Audi
- BMW
- Merecedes
- Maybach
- Opel (Vauxhall)
- Smart
- Porsche

JAPAN:

- Daihatsu
- Dome
- Honda
- Acura
- Isuzu
- Mazda
- Mitsubishi
- Nissan
- Infiniti
- Subaru
- Suzuki
- Takeoka
- Toyota
- Lexus
- Scion

I think i got them all. :)

I like german cars better. Japan has the cars who runs and runs for years without any problems, but german cars has better build quality.

[dspari1]

I love the Audi R8, but the Nissan GT-R Premium is a better car in almost every aspect and can be gotten at a much cheaper $80,000 price range instead of the $120,000 price range the Audi R8 is asking for.

However, it all depends on what you want.

The GT-R is a Japanese Tuner that has better steering.

The R8 is a German Exotic that's really in between American Muscle and Japanese Tuners when it comes to acceleration and steering.

I personally prefer the Chevy Corvette ZR1 for it's acceleration and top speed, but it's going to take a while before GM gets back on track with them filing for chapter 11 bankruptcy.

[Regenweald]

German. Fine, Japan has Toyota which is the "ever-running machine", but i prefer Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Bugatti (Bugatti is Italian, but the Volkswagen-Audi group owns it).

Just so we have a overview of Japanese and German cars, here's the brands:

GERMANY:

- Volkswagen
- Audi
- BMW
- Merecedes
- Maybach
- Opel (Vauxhall)
- Smart
- Porsche

JAPAN:

- Daihatsu
- Dome
- Honda
- Acura
- Isuzu
- Mazda
- Mitsubishi
- Nissan
- Infiniti
- Subaru
- Suzuki
- Takeoka
- Toyota
- Lexus
- Scion

I think i got them all. :)

I like german cars better. Japan has the cars who runs and runs for years without any problems, but german cars has better build quality.

I don't think many in here knew that Nissan, Lexus and honda especially were Japanese :) I'll stick with japan for quality/gas consumption.

[geoken]

I highly doubt any Corolla in 86 would compete with Audi and its quattro AWD on *ANY* mountain. It dominated the Pikes Peak race for several years, was also extremely strong on the rally circuit. It was so dominating that after 3 years of racing in IMSA/GTO in the late 80s, AWD was banned.

Don't get me wrong, Toyota makes a good car and leads the world in some of their manufacturing techniques, but either your misquoting someone, or they are just flat out wrong.

Racing cars are tuned to the point where comparisons to their real world counterparts are useless (with the exception of leagues where the cars are very close to stock ie SCCA stock *). I have a B5 A4 Quattro and I prefer my old 1st Gen Talon and WRX to the A4. The A4 makes you fight to induce oversteer and fight even harder to maintain it. It doesn't matter how superior torsen is on paper, if it's tuned toward understeer (like my A4) the car will drive worse than cars with "inferior" AWD systems.

[Vostrocity]

The GT-R is a Japanese Tuner that has better steering.

The R8 is a German Exotic that's really in between American Muscle and Japanese Tuners when it comes to acceleration and steering.

I personally prefer the Chevy Corvette ZR1 for it's acceleration and top speed, but it's going to take a while before GM gets back on track with them filing for chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Imo supercars aren't segregated into "tuner" and "muscle" etc. They do everything extremely well, and that's why they're super. :D


I don't think many in here knew that Nissan, Lexus and honda especially were Japanese :)
Uh.. wrong.

[tsali]

That's the truth. I rode a Suzuki RE5 on a trip once. Great/smooth ride, odd looking bike, interesting sound, but very thirsty.



This is the only production one I could find quickly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diamond-Katana-DA20.jpg

Others are admittedly "experimental".

Interesting seeing the RE5 mentioned...I actually OWNED one of these beasts.

It was horribly thirsty, but awfully fast for its day. I had electrical problems with mine.

The RE5 used a single rotor wankel. NOT smooth...vibrated like hell at a frequency that would remove your fillings.

While it was interesting, it was certainly not superior to the piston engines available.

[gn2]

~ (Bugatti is Italian, but the Volkswagen-Audi group owns it). ~

The original Bugatti company was French.
Ettore Bugatti was an Italian, but he established the company in France.



I personally prefer the Chevy Corvette ZR1 for it's acceleration and top speed, but it's going to take a while before GM gets back on track with them filing for chapter 11 bankruptcy.

That thing has the finesse and engineering of a tractor.
It still has LEAF SPRINGS! for goodness sake.
source (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/0805gmhtp_2009_chevy_corvette_zr1_the_once_and_fut ure_king/zr1_suspension.html)

No wonder the dinosaurs died out.

[Metallion]

My bicycle is better.

[rookcifer]

German cars. Because it's like Vince of "Sham-WOw" fame says, "You know, the Germans always make good stuff."

So, if Vince says it, I believe it.

[Pasdar]

I've heard from many car mechanics and dealers that the Japanese make the best cars. They need the least maintenance and stay great for very long. I've especially heard Toyota mentioned a lot. Just look at many Asian countries, they sometimes have Toyota's from 30 years ago and it still has the same power it had the day it was bought.

[gn2]

Top Gear famously tried to kill a Toyota HiLux......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrk6vsb77xk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk&NR=1

The best car I ever had was a Toyota Carina E 1.6.

When I sold it the mileage was over 200,000 and in all that time the only non consumable part that needed to be replaced was the water pump.

The car is still in daily use by the guy I sold it to and it must be getting close to 300,000 miles by now.

[Daremo_06]

This thread never was going to turn into anything other than (insert car name here) is the best in the world and is better than any other. Which then is accompanied by various supporting "facts".

That being said... I'll say this about longevity. My experience is nearly all with VW/Audi and I am currently driving a 95 A6 with 260k miles on it with the only issues being a crack in the exhaust behind one of the cats that I have to try to weld, the engine leaking a bit of oil (a qt a month or so) and the AC being a royal PITA to get charged without going to a dealer (its not your standard setup). It is not unheard of for these engines and the previous 5cyl inline engines to go over 300k miles.

[swoll1980]

You dont read news very often do you? Two of the 3 major american car companies are requiring life support due to their own bungling and utter mismanagement of their products over many years.

Ford is the only one of the 3 that is forward thinking and is still competitive.

So no, American cars are NOT the best. Unless the best to you means substandard materials/construction in comparison to similar cars at a similar price.

The American car companies are finally having to face the reality that years of junk like the Malibu and the Dodge Caliber and other utter disasters that have been sold to the American people under the guise they were good cars has driven them nearly out of business.

I'm talking about cars, not business models. IMO the Chevy Corvette, and the Cadillac De ville are the two best cars in the world, and they are both made by GM. Whether GM is bankrupt, or not, has nothing to do with my opinion.

[Pasdar]

American cars are known to be some of the worst cars in the world. You'd have to be an American to think American cars are anywhere near the top. I'm not talking about looks or sound, even though it takes a particular person to like something so big with that many dBs coming out of it. I'm talking about how many Km/l (miles per gallon) it can go and require as little maintenance as possible.

Some of the worst cars in Europe and Asia go what, 40+ miles per gallon, now compare that to even the new American cars.

[carpenocte]

Very easy: from all angles japanese cars are better, in fact every tech stuff is better made in Japan. The reasons are:

1. Business kind of minds (prices are better in relation to benefits. Always. (and we all know that this is the most important fact, price/quality.

2. Best made manuals, so if you use your brain you can fix your own japanese car with cheap tools.

3. Guarantee: according to the price, japanese cars come with the longest warranty. It does not mean "the car is better" It means the one who made it TRUSTS on what has been built.

4. Spectrum: from the cheapest to the high-end japanese cars, everyone is reliable. The rest of the countries, nowdays, will only produce really good cars for the high-end models.

5. Everyone steals from Japanese cars, there must be a reason for it...

6. Every competence is earned by japanese brands, and the harshest kind, which is Rally... is always owned by japanese cars, there must be a reason.

7. Every japanese vehicle is good in the whole, not only chassis or engine or whatever... every part is designed and manufactured in Japan. Trucks, small cars, vans... everyone is good, not only "some"...

8. The car that will come with lots of technology and yet last for longer, in the same price range, is always Japanese.

9. And finally, what to say about consumption rates and parts prices... Japanese, they truly know what they are doing.

[overdrank]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5451/necromancing.jpg
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