For The Return of Þorn!

[LaRoza]

Why is þis letter for a raþer uncommon sound in many languages, yet very common in English, replaced with a digraph? It makes sense for such a sound to have its own symbol.

Many ESL people speak it improperly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_th#Acquisition_problems). I even had one person who was not a native speaker tell me þat the sound for a word was an dental unaspirated D. Basically said you say þe "d" in a word as the one says "the". þis was a language that had distinctions between dental and retroflex and aspirated and unaspirated sounds, you can guess which language.

Giving it its letter back is only fair.

http://tiger.towson.edu/~apeak1/ww/thp/2008/forthereturnofthorn.html

(For USA internation layout, press right "alt + t", for others who don't have it, press "ctrl + shift + u" then type "00DE" or "00FE" (for upper and lower case). Lowercase is bigger than upper case in this letter. Þ == Upper (right alt + shift + t, or upper sequence) and þ == lowercase)

[Saint Angeles]

þats pretty cool! i Þought it was a p or a b at first. am i using Þis correctly?

[LaRoza]

þats pretty cool! i Þought it was a p or a b at first. am i using Þis correctly?

Yes, next lesson: proper capitalisation in English ;)

[zmjjmz]

I used Þis with my Norse stuff, it's pretty useful.

[LaRoza]

I used Þis with my Norse stuff, it's pretty useful.

Use it in English now. Go forþ and spread it to þe plebes!

[damis648]

Þere are many sounds in Þe the English language Þat deserve Þeir own character. I agree. :popcorn:

[LaRoza]

Þere are many sounds in Þe the English language Þat deserve Þeir own character. I agree. :popcorn:

Well, þis particular one is distinct. It had its own letter but lost it. It is extremely common and should be distinct. It would be like replacing every single "f" wiþ "ph".

[MaxIBoy]

The reason that character isn't used is because it resembles other letters too much. It looks like a cross between a "p" and a "D." This could be a source of confusion. It's not that we're too stupid to cope with another letter, but it would force people to slow down while reading. "Th" or "th" are very difficult to confuse with another letter, visually speaking.

Taking this further, I believe that the "U" should look much more dissimilar to the "V," as that is a similar problem. Also, the uppercase "I" should always have easily visible serifs to help differentiate it from a lowercase "l."

[Saint Angeles]

Yes, next lesson: proper capitalisation in English ;)
i've never been a fan of capital letters... if i had it my way, we'd only have lowercase.

i just Þink Þey're ugly. but when i am typing peoples' names, i will capitalize Þem out of respect.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B03E6DB143FEE3ABC4E51DFB166838B 699FDE

[LaRoza]

ive never been a fan of capital letters... if i had it my way, we'd only have lowercase.

i just think they're ugly. but when i am typing peoples' names, i will capitalize it out of respect.
Personal style, I dig þat. It used to be þat every noun was capitalised (still is in some languages). It was needless complexity, however, "th" is also needless complexity". Some writing systems have no such distinctions. þe original Latin alphabet for example, and Devanagari.

However, next lesson: apostrophes.

[elmer_42]

How would one go about remapping þe caps lock key to a "þ" key? It would also be nice if you could use shift to make þe "þ" key output a "Þ".

[MaxIBoy]

Capitals have their uses. I agree that having to capitalize proper nouns is an unjustified complication. However, capitals help to speed up the reading process, by serving as visual "landmarks." I find them very helpful when I've lost my place on a page.

[LaRoza]

How would one go about remapping þe caps lock key to a "þ" key? It would also be nice if you could use shift to make þe "þ" key output a "Þ".

That would be confusing I think. The most common remap of the caps lock is to be an "esc" key, as that was the original position.

"Alt + t" isn't that hard. (Right alt, everyone).

[Saint Angeles]

Personal style, I dig þat. It used to be þat every noun was capitalised (still is in some languages). It was needless complexity, however, "th" is also needless complexity". Some writing systems have no such distinctions. þe original Latin alphabet for example, and Devanagari.

However, next lesson: apostrophes.
my use of apostrophes is also part of my personal style

[LaRoza]

my use of apostrophes is also part of my personal style

I was just teasing you :-)

[Saint Angeles]

That would be confusing I think. The most common remap of the caps lock is to be an "esc" key, as that was the original position.

"Alt + t" isn't that hard. (Right alt, everyone).
right alt+t doesnt work for me... at least not in swiftweasel right now. i have to do ctrl+shift+uoode

[LaRoza]

right alt+t doesnt work for me... at least not in swiftweasel right now. i have to do ctrl+shift+uoode

If you use a US layout, changing it to "US International" will be helpful probably. If you use GNOME, you can use þe keyboard indicator to switch it.

[elmer_42]

right alt+t doesnt work for me... at least not in swiftweasel right now. i have to do ctrl+shift+uoode
Yeah, me eiþer. I have to use þe unicode code every time, which may or may not get annoying. However, I am interested in how to switch þe Caps Lock key and þe Esc key. But what key would be good for repurposing as a þ/Þ key?

[LaRoza]

Yeah, me eiþer. I have to use þe unicode code every time, which may or may not get annoying. However, I am interested in how to switch þe Caps Lock key and þe Esc key. But what key would be good for repurposing as a þ/Þ key?

Perhaps, if it is easily done, making it to "TH" is changed to þ? I don't know if þat is possible, but it would be optimal I þ for þe lack of "alt + t".

[cardinals_fan]

I was sent to a speech therapist at school in 2nd grade because I couldn't pronounce Þ properly. She was creepy, which provided excellent motivation to learn it correctly.

[LaRoza]

I was sent to a speech therapist at school in 2nd grade because I couldn't pronounce Þ properly. She was creepy, which provided excellent motivation to learn it correctly.

C'mon! You mean "þerapist"...

It is þe last sound to be learned usually by children.

[cardinals_fan]

C'mon! You mean "þerapist"...

It is þe last sound to be learned usually by children.
My apologies, o master of all that is þish :P

[LaRoza]

My apologies, o master of all that is þish :P

Don't mock me... Þe forum style issues make þe infraction text very large :evil:

[steveneddy]

So what about those of us who are educated and don't give a crap about letters from old English that don't really matter anymore?

Why don't you just start a national campaign to get all of the letters in the English speaking nations, USA included, to start using only Old English and old and forgotten text that no one really cares about?

This poll is insulting to those of us who know the difference between education and arrogance.

[LaRoza]

So what about those of us who are educated and don't give a crap about letters from old English that don't really matter anymore?
Well, I would expect more eloquence...



Why don't you just start a national campaign to get all of the letters in the English speaking nations, USA included, to start using only Old English and old and forgotten text that no one really cares about?

Some languages still use them, including quite modern and popular languages. This isn't the same thing as suggesting we use old runes, but use modern letters for a distinct pair of sounds that are common in the English language (although, the pair isn't usually thought of it that way by English speakers, hence the second option).



This poll is insulting to those of us who know the difference between education and arrogance.
Relax... It is not that serious. I don't expect everyone to know it, and that this thread is mainly for a slightly interesting subject and an oppurtunity to learn a small bit of information. If it only helps people understand what "ye olde" means, then it was successful.

[cardinals_fan]

Don't mock me... Þe forum style issues make þe infraction text very large :evil:
Was Þat a Þreat?

So what about those of us who are educated and don't give a crap about letters from old English that don't really matter anymore?

Why don't you just start a national campaign to get all of the letters in the English speaking nations, USA included, to start using only Old English and old and forgotten text that no one really cares about?

This poll is insulting to those of us who know the difference between education and arrogance.
But it takes less time to type "Þ" than to type "7#"...

[LaRoza]

Was Þat a Þreat?


Sure sounded like one to me ;)

[kyalee]

I could go for þis.

[Bölvaður]

Þe only confusion is wið þ and ð. In old english I have be shocked to see ð and weird places. I have actually used þ and ð when instant messaging some friends of the lower classes :) Þey cope wið it very well, so I hope you all will also, because I will probably use þ and ð on Commmmunity Cafe from now on.

Btw most people here are using only capital Þ, looks funny :P

[LaRoza]

Þe only confusion is wið þ and ð. In old english I have be shocked to see ð and weird places. I have actually used þ and ð when instant messaging some friends of the lower classes :) Þey cope wið it very well, so I hope you all will also, because I will probably use þ and ð on Commmmunity Cafe from now on.

Btw most people here are using only capital Þ, looks funny :P

Yes, I knew in English þey were mixable, but were not in other languages, hence the second option :-)

I use þ mostly, the capital form is awkward to type.

[snova]

þis is just silly.

Very interesting, þough. The annoying thing is how similar it looks to p, leading to some very odd words being used on these forums...

Of course, now I'm going to use it to annoy everybody. :)

[LaRoza]

þis is just silly.

Very interesting, þough. The annoying thing is how similar it looks to p, leading to some very odd words being used on these forums...

Of course, now I'm going to use it to annoy everybody. :)

No more þan a b resembles a p.

And it doesn't matter why you use it, just as long as you do.

[kevdog]

who cares?!!

[jomiolto]

I þink it is indeed too easily mixed up wiþ p. I actually misread þe title at first and I had a short "erm, what?" moment before I realized what it said :) (I knew the letter already, because I've seen Old English before and I þink þe letter is still used in Icelandic too).

I really like it þough! I þink it would be easier for some us foreign people to learn English if it was spelled more phonetically (or maybe not if your native language isn't phonetically spelled).

Hmm, perhaps þere should be an official "þorn day", on which we spell everything using the þorn? :)

[pp.]

And what about al the other digrafs and silent letrs usd in your language? Just reed þe þred from start to finnish, and yoo'll notice all sorts of inconsistensees.

[talsemgeest]

It was lucky I noticed þis when the forum messed up and figured out what it meant before coming to þis þread, otherwise I would have had no idea what þis was about...

[Aramroth]

Old English for þe win?

So maybe we shouldn't use 'you' as þe second person singular pronoun?
AFAIK 'you' is plural. 'þou' is singular.

Remember: þou shalt use þe 'þou' word!

BTW, when I saw the title of this thread, I þought it was 'for the return of porn' :D

[gn2]

ÞiÞ ÞuckÞ

[fiddler616]

Wikipedia doesn't say that it's illegal--so I will now use it in everyþing I write þat is not graded.
I also propose resurrecting the difference between þou and you--one's singular, the oþer's plural. Y'all is for wimps. Edit: I guess this was already covered.

[tom66]

Whilst I þink þat it's a nice þing to have, it is too easily confused wiþ þe letters 'b' and 'p'. Also, since it seems to lack a key on a common keyboard and you have to use þe Alt-Gr key or þe Alt-Number combination to get it, it could be troublesome to use.

[ratmandall]

:)

#!/usr/bin/python
# -*- coding: latin-1 -*-

Th = "Þ"
th = "þ"
inp = raw_input("Enter your text: ")
inpr = inp.replace("th", th)
done = inpr.replace("Th", Th)
print done


So what about þose of us who are educated and don't give a crap about letters from old English þat don't really matter anymore?

Why don't you just start a national campaign to get all of þe letters in þe English speaking nations, USA included, to start using only Old English and old and forgotten text þat no one really cares about?

Þis poll is insulting to þose of us who know þe difference between education and arrogance.
Þis is Fixed.

[koenn]

Þe only confusion is wið þ and ð. In old english I have be shocked to see ð and weird places.


Yes, I knew in English þey were mixable, but were not in other languages, hence the second option :-)

That 2nd option is the only one that actually makes sense, because it acknowledges that there are 2 pronunciations for 'th' in English.

Simply replacing the symbol 'th' with 'þ' is nothing but a superficial, cosmetic change. The logical thing to do would be to use 'þ' to represent 1 specific sound (and possibly 'ð' for another).

I salute the Scandinavian languages for doing the Right Thing.

[LaRoza]

That 2nd option is the only one that actually makes sense, because it acknowledges that there are 2 pronunciations for 'th' in English.

Simply replacing the symbol 'th' with 'þ' is nothing but a superficial, cosmetic change. The logical thing to do would be to use 'þ' to represent 1 specific sound (and possibly 'ð' for another).

I salute the Scandinavian languages for doing the Right Thing.

In English, þ and ð are allophones. There never was much of a distinction. English speakers aren't aware of the differences in everday speech. It does not need two letters for it for this reason, although ð should be understood.

If a sound isn't an allophone, then it makes sense to have separate characters. This is why Hindi for example has four letters for "t", four for "d", two for "k", two for "g", two "p" and two "b" and four "n" sounds. They make the distinction between them whereas English (and other languages) do not. English has these sounds in it, but they are not seen as different unless they are contrasted. Like the different beteen "nitrate" and "night rate".

[ZankerH]

I agree fully with ðe rein∫tatement of ðe variou∫s middle-Aenglisc letters ðat have ∫ince gone out of use, such as ðe long ∫, ðe letter eð and ðe letter þorn. I acknowledge ðat ðis might be a huge headache ∫ource for everyone, but I'm all for annoying native Aenglisc speaker∫s by challenging þeir pre∫umed perfect grammar every now and þen.

[pp.]

Moast sistematic ortthografees can be explaind in won paij.
CKS or chekt speling is no exseption.

A foneemic ortthografy can be fully explaind in wo'n chart. If thair is won and oanly won simbl for eech sound, then a simpl 6x8 [48 sel] taybl can sho it all. In a lineear form, the saym 48 cells can be iuzd tu compair alternate solutions tu the grafeem-foneem combination problem.

Wot has tu be explaind with CKS is how it is simpler than than other IPA baisd noataytions. The plaiss tu start is with the IPA notaytions of Jones and Sweet becaus CKS is won ov severl proposals for a fon-ASCII - a foneemic sistem that dus not requir eny nu carictiurs.

CKS employs tu inoavaytions: marking the chekt vouls with a dot [.] and marking the sentral vouls with an apostrofy [']. The chekt voul marking can iuzualy be dropd or clipd. The sentral voul marking for /ai/ ['y and 'I] can awlso be dropd. It has tu be retaind for /ou/ [o'], /3:/ ['r], /schwa/ a' and /^/ u'. [ritn in OGD]

Source (http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/vangogh/555/Spell/CCS-nut.html)

[koenn]

In English, þ and ð are allophones. There never was much of a distinction. English speakers aren't aware of the differences in everday speech.
Isn't there a clear distinction between the th in 'the' and the th in 'think' ? That would make them distinct phonemes, not allophones.
Or are you saying native speakers don't make that distinction and that it's only used to annoy people who learn English as a 2nd language ?

[ZankerH]

Moast sistematic ortthografees can be explaind in won paij.
CKS or chekt speling is no exseption.

A foneemic ortthografy can be fully explaind in wo'n chart. If thair is won and oanly won simbl for eech sound, then a simpl 6x8 [48 sel] taybl can sho it all. In a lineear form, the saym 48 cells can be iuzd tu compair alternate solutions tu the grafeem-foneem combination problem.

Wot has tu be explaind with CKS is how it is simpler than than other IPA baisd noataytions. The plaiss tu start is with the IPA notaytions of Jones and Sweet becaus CKS is won ov severl proposals for a fon-ASCII - a foneemic sistem that dus not requir eny nu carictiurs.

CKS employs tu inoavaytions: marking the chekt vouls with a dot [.] and marking the sentral vouls with an apostrofy [']. The chekt voul marking can iuzualy be dropd or clipd. The sentral voul marking for /ai/ ['y and 'I] can awlso be dropd. It has tu be retaind for /ou/ [o'], /3:/ ['r], /schwa/ a' and /^/ u'. [ritn in OGD]

Source (http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/vangogh/555/Spell/CCS-nut.html)


know may brane reeli hurtz

[Bölvaður]

Isn't there a clear distinction between the th in 'the' and the th in 'think' ? That would make them distinct phonemes, not allophones.
Or are you saying native speakers don't make that distinction and that it's only used to annoy people who learn English as a 2nd language ?

I agree, ðere are clear distinction between þ and ð as ðe ð is softer ðan ðe þ, as we can clearly hear in words like þink and þought. Þought and ðough are very similar words but ðey... oh boy, I þink we need an english professor to settle ðis, but I had an idea. Just list down words:


Þighs, þrust, þunder, þorn, þink, þrash, þursday, þought, þrough, þug, healþ, þousand, wiþ, boþ, strengþ, monþ, norþ,
Ðough, ðe, ðey, ðat, ðis, weðer, anoðer, raðer, deaþ, leþal,


I þink there is very clearly distinctive sound difference. I tried using ð in þ words for th and it just sounds silly.

[LaRoza]

Isn't there a clear distinction between the th in 'the' and the th in 'think' ? That would make them distinct phonemes, not allophones.
Or are you saying native speakers don't make that distinction and that it's only used to annoy people who learn English as a 2nd language ?

No, þere isn't. Native speakers don't þink about it. It is like the different "p" in "pit" and "spit". If you don't hear it, you now know what an allophone is :-) In some languages, the distinction is made.

Þere is a difference between "the" and "think", but we don't hear it as being distinct.

[Barrucadu]

I've been trying, but I really can't hear a difference between the th in 'ðe', and the th in 'þunder'. So I'll just use þ for all of them, raþer than use ð and þ and just get þem þe wrong way around.

[Bölvaður]

No, þere isn't. Native speakers don't þink about it. It is like the different "p" in "pit" and "spit". If you don't hear it, you now know what an allophone is :-) In some languages, the distinction is made.

Þere is a difference between "the" and "think", but we don't hear it as being distinct.

Check ðe list I made. For me it shows more contrast ðan w and v in english. English teachers and ðe people who are more concerned about pronunciation have been annoyingly nitpicking v and w as different sounds.
Þ is kind of harder sounds in contrast to ðe smooþness of ðe Ð.

[LaRoza]

I've been trying, but I really can't hear a difference between the th in 'ðe', and the th in 'þunder'. So I'll just use þ for all of them, raþer than use ð and þ and just get þem þe wrong way around.

Yes, English speakers never really distinguished between the sounds. Obviously, your language does ;)


Check ðe list I made. For me it shows more contrast ðan w and v in english. English teachers and ðe people who are more concerned about pronunciation have been annoyingly nitpicking v and w as different sounds.
Þ is kind of harder sounds in contrast to ðe smooþness of ðe Ð.
For me, "w" and "v" are much more distinct than þ and ð (oh, for those who don't know, right alt + d for ð). As I said, in English they are allophones.

Þis is why people have accents. The "b" in English is different from þe "b" in Spanish. In Hindi, þere are more precise sounds (which is the cause of þe Indian accent), and when þey speak English, þey use one of their sounds, instead of using þe allophones because they aren't allophones to þem. Obviously, to someone who doesn't hear þem as allphones, it isn't "right", but it is in English.

[Barrucadu]

While we're at it, why don't we bring back Eng (ŋ)?

[LaRoza]

While we're at it, why don't we bring back Eng (ŋ)?

Sure.

My main point isn't bring back "archaic" letter forms, but giving distinct sounds þat are in common use þeir letters back.

[pp.]

Sure.

My main point isn't bring back "archaic" letter forms, but giving distinct sounds þat are in common use þeir letters back.

I don't see the difference. The eng is a distinct sound for which there is a distinct glyph, the "ŋ". I would place a smallish bet that you pronounce the verb "sing" as "siŋ" rather than as "sink".

[koenn]

Yes, English speakers never really distinguished between the sounds. Obviously, your language does ;)


For me, "w" and "v" are much more distinct than þ and ð (oh, for those who don't know, right alt + d for ð). As I said, in English they are allophones.

Þis is why people have accents. The "b" in English is different from þe "b" in Spanish. In Hindi, þere are more precise sounds (which is the cause of þe Indian accent), and when þey speak English, þey use one of their sounds, instead of using þe allophones because they aren't allophones to þem. Obviously, to someone who doesn't hear þem as allphones, it isn't "right", but it is in English.

Still not convinced.

'th' in the is voiced, 'th' in think is voiceless. That would make the difference between the 2 sounds of the same order as the difference between b en p. I don't think you can call them allophones then. There are also separate IPA symbols for each of them.

One might say that ð and d are allophones, especially to people whose language doesn't have a ð-sound - which includes some English variants ("in da house"), whereas þ is clearly a different phoneme - even in English.

[the8thstar]

I think it's a stupid idea. There is no such phoneme on the default keyboards around the world. And given the number of non-native anglophones, the chances of adopting this are nil.

Icelanders kept their phonemes unchanged but I think it had to do with a prolonged isolation from other Nordic and Germanic languages which all dropped them eventually.

Also, if you really want to look into putting the right sound on the right letters, think of something to express the differences between read (infinitive form) and read (past participle).

[Stefanie]

our alphabet was developed for latin (well orginally for phoenician and ancient greek, but we use the latin variant), that's why there's no seperate letter for every phoneme. it's stupid but it would be very inconvenient to change everything because basically you would have to create an entire new alphabet (and make huge keyboards :-) )

if you want a letter for every phoneme you can have a look at the international phonetic alphabet (IPA) http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipachart.html . as a linguist i'm quite used to reading IPA symbols but still i don't think it's very convenient for everyday use.

[the8thstar]

I guess you should learn Korean if you want the best match between the written form and its pronunciation.

[LaRoza]

'th' in the is voiced, 'th' in think is voiceless. That would make the difference between the 2 sounds of the same order as the difference between b en p. I don't think you can call them allophones then.
þe entire point of þis þread is for English speakers. þey are allophones in English. þe symbols were used interchangably in English (when þey were used commonly).

Not all languages are like þis.



There are also separate IPA symbols for each of them.

þere are separate IPA symbols for all þe Hindi "d", "t", and "n" sounds. English uses "d" for various sounds. All of þose sounds are allophones in English. In Hindi, þey are not, þerefore, þey have separate symbols.



One might say that ð and d are allophones, especially to people whose language doesn't have a ð-sound - which includes some English variants ("in da house"), whereas þ is clearly a different phoneme - even in English.

Yes, in other non English (or some dialects) languages. The whole point this thread is in English.

þ and ð are allophones in English.


I think it's a stupid idea. There is no such phoneme on the default keyboards around the world. And given the number of non-native anglophones, the chances of adopting this are nil.

Chances of this adopting? Would you think all the "f"'s in use in English could be replaced across the board with "ph"? Do you think that could happen? This would eliminate the "f" from the English lettering system.

Sounds silly something could happen right? Well, it happened to þorn.

[LaRoza]

I guess you should learn Korean if you want the best match between the written form and its pronunciation.

Many languages have writing systems with clear pronounciation.

[pp.]

Many languages have writing systems with clear pronounciation.

... whereas some languages do not have a clear pronounciation, and no number of additional letters is going to change that.

Notably, there are some faraway states where people fancy they speak English. That wouldn't have been so astonishing before the advent of radio and similar broadcasting technologies which ought to have enabled them to hear how the language really was meant to be used.

[the8thstar]

Chances of this adopting? Would you think all the "f"'s in use in English could be replaced across the board with "ph"? Do you think that could happen? This would eliminate the "f" from the English lettering system.

Sounds silly something could happen right? Well, it happened to þorn.

You're missing the point. þ is not present on our keyboard by default, while f, h and p are. The shortcut Right Alt + d is not enabled on all keyboards. It doesn't work on mine for instance.

I'm not going to buy an Icelandic keyboard just to write two more letters.

[LaRoza]

You're missing the point. þ is not present on our keyboard by default, while f, h and p are. The shortcut Right Alt + d is not enabled on all keyboards. It doesn't work on mine for instance.

I'm not going to buy an Icelandic keyboard just to write two more letters.

I þhink you are missing the point. þis isn't a serious attempt to change English over þe globe. þis is an internet forum and I am some random person ;)

þe right alt + d isn't a shortcut. It is part of þe US International keyboard layout.

[LaRoza]

... whereas some languages do not have a clear pronounciation, and no number of additional letters is going to change that.


And how is subtracting letters going to help?

[ZankerH]

And how is subtracting letters going to help?

Simple, you remove the letters one by one until there are none left, and without a written record, the language fades into disuse and obscurity. :)

[pp.]

And how is subtracting letters going to help?

I don't think the numbr of letrs wil have a noticeable efect on that.

Long live nue speling.

[LaRoza]

Simple, you remove the letters one by one until there are none left, and without a written record, the language fades into disuse and obscurity. :)

Not so. There are languages without writing systems that are living.

[LaRoza]

I don't think the numbr of letrs wil have a noticeable efect on that.

Long live nue speling.

Ok, next letter to go will be "L". I hereby declare "l" will no longer be used (except for þis "l") and "rr" wirr be used instead. I hope y'arr wirr be happy now. Rretter murderers...

[pp.]

Ok, next letter to go will be "L".

Wastrel! Squandering valuable bandwidd and storage space!

Rader drop the ubiquitous letter "e". Dere's an overrated symbol.

Lt's abolish th lttr "".

Oops. Sould hav writn "Lt's abolis d ltr ''".

[MasterNetra]

lol prehaps we should use a symbol that doesn't look like one of the other letters for th. Because the title looks like "For the return of porn" XD

[LaRoza]

lol prehaps we should use a symbol that doesn't look like one of the other letters for th. Because the title looks like "For the return of porn" XD

Oh? It doesn't resemble it anymore þan a "b" ;)

I would say it is just your lack of familiarity wiþ it, so you'll get used to it (probably).

[LaRoza]

Wastrel! Squandering valuable bandwidd and storage space!

Rader drop the ubiquitous letter "e". Dere's an overrated symbol.

Lt's abolish th lttr "".

Oops. Sould hav writn "Lt's abolis d ltr ''".

We better stop before we are permanently handicapped...

[pp.]

the title looks like "For the return of porn"

No, it dosn't, not to m. And I'm waring glass. Bifocals, vn.

[No, it doesn't, not to me. And I'm wearing glasses. Bifocals, even.]

[cardinals_fan]

vv3 [0v1) 411 v53 13375|*34X

Hey, at least it's written like it sounds ;)

[Flying caveman]

All right, who "rick-rolled" the Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9E


If you copy and paste Þ into an text editing program, it will show: We're no strangers to love You know the rules and so do I A full commitment's what I'm thinking of You wouldn't get this from any other guy I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling Gotta make you understand Never gonna give you up Never gonna let you down Never gonna run around and desert you Never gonna make you cry Never gonna say goodbye Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you:lolflag:

[koenn]

þe entire point of þis þread is for English speakers.
Oh, sorry, must have missed the "foreigners not allowed here"-sign


þe symbols were used interchangably in English (when þey were used commonly).
This is correct, Anglo-Saxon writers used both symbols interchangeably for bot the voiced and voiceless 'th'.
Other languages, mainly the Nordic Germanic languages, used ð for the voiced, and the þ for voiceless.




þ and ð are allophones in English.

All English textbooks I've seen, including some English Phonology textbooks from US universities, distinguish between two different phonemes: the voiced dental fricative /ð/ and the voiceless dental fricative /θ/, both spelled as 'th'.
They may have been allophones of each other in Anglo-Saxon, but they aren't in Modern English, so it would make sense to reintroduce þ, but only if its distinct from ð, the way it's done in Icelandic.

Clearly option 2 is the only sensible choice.

[civillian]

Anglo-Saxon writers used both symbols interchangeably

I think to be honest most anglo saxon writers used almost all symbols that were roughly the same in terms of pronunciation interchangebly, since it only really (as far as my study of English has tought me at any rate)

[jpkotta]

What about 'θ'? I guess I'm more used to θat. Sometimes I abbreviate Θursday with Θ (I know it would be more appropriate to use 'Þ' in θat particular case).

[tuxxy]

Þ/þ is a worþy letter for everday English use
Þ/þ is worþy for general use, but only if it is distinct from ð
This letter shouldn't be used because I'm not used to it
I never thought about the phonemes of Englis

I was going to vote but then noticed there was no accurate answer included in the poll for someone disagreeing with the OP, maybe we could add any of the following

"This letter shouldn't be used because the modern digraph th has been used since 14th century"

"I prefer the modern digraph th"

"I prefer to use english than the language of germanic tribes" :)

[nvteighen]

þe entire point of þis þread is for English speakers. þey are allophones in English. þe symbols were used interchangably in English (when þey were used commonly).

Argh!!! Linguistic alert!!

A Phoneme is an abstraction made by Linguists. A phoneme is a sound that distinguish meanings. Allophones are different real pronounciations the phoneme has.

Classic example. Peninsular Spanish (Spain) vs. Latinamerican Spanish.

In Spanish, there's the phoneme /θ/ (written 'c' or 'z'), which is able to distinguish 'caza' /'kaθa/ = 'haunt' vs. 'casa' /'kasa/ = 'house'.

But, in Latinamerica (and also Southern Spain and Canary Islands, but let's simplify). /θ/ is replaced by the allophone [s] (note the use of brackets), so both 'caza' and 'casa' are pronounced ['kasa]... And there's no meaning issue because there's some consciousness that the "correct" sound is the /θ/ phoneme. (When that consciousness is lost, we're a step nearer to a new language, but that's another story).

[Grant A.]

In my opinion we need both é and þ returned to the english alphabet. É is still used in some cases, but isn't considered a real "letter" of the alphabet.

EDIT- The real key into reintroduction is use. The more we use it, the more it catches on.

[pp.]

Apropos this thread I would like to comment that in the German language the August Ulich wovel has been introduced what I believe to be some 100 years ago.

[Saint Angeles]

how is "Þ" pronounced. i know its called Þorn but is it the hard "th" like "thunder"? or is it the soft th like "The"

i'm sorry, i don't know all this technical stuff like some of you do

[Grant A.]

how is "Þ" pronounced. i know its called Þorn but is it the hard "th" like "thunder"? or is it the soft th like "The"

i'm sorry, i don't know all this technical stuff like some of you do

That sounds like a dialect issue tbh, as "the" can be pronounced both hard and soft. It sounds like it is hard to me, as in "thorn" for what it is named.

[pirattrev]

ok, if þis sentence can be correct þen I think we ʃʊld make all þese correct.

þ = th
ʃ = sh
ʊ = ou

[gn2]

Like the different beteen "nitrate" and "night rate".

The difference is that "nitrate" is one word and there is no gap between the syllables whereas "night rate" is two words so there should be a discernible pause between the two syllables.

There is no need whatsoever to replace th with your symbol in English.
Sadly some of the more impressionable forum members seem to have jumped on your bandwagon of affectation.

[Grant A.]

The difference is that "nitrate" is one word and there is no gap between the syllables whereas "night rate" is two words so there should be a discernible pause between the two syllables.

There is no need whatsoever to replace th with your symbol in English.
Sadly some of the more impressionable forum members seem to have jumped on your bandwagon of affectation.

saying that is the only difference is like saying the word ma'at = matt.

EDIT - If so called "impressionable" people didn't exist, your language would be a no show. In fact, we would be using this runic letter and all the runic letters.


So...
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bug.png

[SunnyRabbiera]

Porn! Where? ;)

[SunnyRabbiera]

Sorry duplicate post, please ignore.

[Grant A.]

Porn! Where? ;)

:lolflag:

þat's what I first þought when I came in here :P

[aaaantoine]

There are a lot of things that don't make sense in English. For instance...

- We have "f", and yet, for some reason we also have "ph". Photograph? Why not call it a fotograf?
- Each vowel represents at least two completely different sounds, some even overlapping. Need. Lead. Italian.

For this reason I have great respect for romance languages such as Spanish, where vowels each have one distinct sound, and the rules of pronunciation are simple.

Is there a way to type the letter "thorn" using the compose key?

[gn2]

There are a lot of things that don't make sense in English. For instance...

- We have "f", and yet, for some reason we also have "ph". Photograph? Why not call it a fotograf?

Because of the origin. Phos or photos, which I believe is Greek for light.

Old joke: "What's the French word for "entrepreneur"?

[aaaantoine]

Because of the origin. Phos or photos, which I believe is Greek for light.

Old joke: "What's the French word for "entrepreneur"?

Well, yes. But in response to this I bring in my good friend Spanish.

What the Americans call "soccer", the British call "football". The Spanish, to avoid any confusion in what is a widely international sport, also call it "football". But then they wrote it down. How did they write it?

Did they write "football"? No! Origins be damned! They maintained the integrity of their language and wrote "fútbol".

[Barrucadu]

Is there a way to type the letter "thorn" using the compose key?

Compose + t h

Though I'm not sure about how to do the upper case variant.

[Tux.Ice]

If this is to be incorporated, we need an easier shortcut.

[Grant A.]

If this is to be incorporated, we need an easier shortcut.

+1

Dead keys aren't my favorite þing in the world.

Any keyboard manufacturers here want to make us this key? :P

[ZankerH]

They maintained the integrity of their language and wrote "fútbol".

Transliterating a foreign language is just as much an act of linguistic prostitution as is accepting the foreign word alltogether. The only way to "maintain the integrity of your language" is to translate the damn thing!

[skipsbro]

Þorn: one þing we have lots of on the ubuntu forums! :lolflag:

[Viranh]

Honestly, I read this thread title as "For the Return of Porn!" and that is a perfect example of why we don't use this letter. I find it to be indistinguishable from "b" or "p," depending on the case. I find it as annoying as "u," "ur" and the like. I also can't type it without using a character map.

[Ripfox]

Honestly, I read this thread title as "For the Return of Porn!" and that is a perfect example of why we don't use this letter. I find it to be indistinguishable from "b" or "p," depending on the case. I find it as annoying as "u," "ur" and the like. I also can't type it without using a character map.

Yea, I was like...where did porn go anyway?

[chickengirl]

As a language geek, I approve of the use of thorn.

But as a language geek, I also disapprove of using it for BOTH voiced and unvoiced "th". They EACH need their own letters!

[oedipuss]

Aaah so that's what that 'ye olde' thing is all about ! I never knew :P
(check the wikipedia article on 'thorn'. Basically, they printed thorn as 'y' because it looked similar in some scripts.)


As a language geek, I approve of the use of thorn.

But as a language geek, I also disapprove of using it for BOTH voiced and unvoiced "th". They EACH need their own letters!

Isn't there another letter for that? Edh or something, looks like δ (delta).

[aaaantoine]

Compose + t h

Though I'm not sure about how to do the upper case variant.

Thanks.

Upper case is Compose + Shift + t h.

Edit: I suppose you expected me to write "Þanks." But I'd rather not adopt a habit I'd have to spend 5 minutes explaining to every person I ever email.

[cardinals_fan]

Isn't there another letter for that? Edh or something, looks like δ (delta).
You mean eth (or edh)? It's mentioned on the poll (I voted for that option).

ð

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eth

[Grant A.]

Honestly, I read this thread title as "For the Return of Porn!" and that is a perfect example of why we don't use this letter. I find it to be indistinguishable from "b" or "p," depending on the case. I find it as annoying as "u," "ur" and the like. I also can't type it without using a character map.

F != E
I != l
U != V
W != V
K != X

But we still use þese similar characters.

[SomeGuyDude]

Sigh... If we want to make the case of having one letter for "th", then we'd better be prepared for a lot of other stuff:

1) Are we talking the "th" in "thick" or the one in "those"? Two different sounds. Better have two letters.

2) Why only th? What about sh and ch? You might be able to make the claim that a ch is a t in front of an sh, but that's still one sound. Also the "ng" noise.

3) You'd better be ready to separate the X into two letters. It's not one sound, after all, it's just a k and an s in sequence.

4) Lots of letters are simply voiced versions of other letters. Such as, a V is a voiced F, a Z is a voiced S. The S in "treasure" is a voiced 'sh' sound.

5) Some letters are redundant. The C is either a K or a S sound, the X we already covered.

6) We have, strictly speaking, 11 letters that cover vowel sounds (the short and long versions of the main five and the y) but at least two sounds that don't have their own letter: the 'oo' in "book" and the shwa sound (unless we start using the shwa again). There's also redundancy here in that the 'oo' in "pool" is also the 'u' in "duke".

7) Is a long 'I' its own sound? Vocalized as an American, it appears to be more of a short A terminated with a long E. Try it out loud. Sustain the long I sound for 10 seconds. It's "aaaaaaa" until you go "ee" at the very end.



...so, if we're really going to go on a "why don't we have one letter for 'th'" tirade, don't half-*** it. Rewrite the entire alphabet. Get back to me when you've figured out how to go about doing that and mapping it to your keyboard logically.

[Grant A.]

Sigh... If we want to make the case of having one letter for "th", then we'd better be prepared for a lot of other stuff:

1) Are we talking the "th" in "thick" or the one in "those"? Two different sounds. Better have two letters.

2) Why only th? What about sh and ch? You might be able to make the claim that a ch is a t in front of an sh, but that's still one sound. Also the "ng" noise.

3) You'd better be ready to separate the X into two letters. It's not one sound, after all, it's just a k and an s in sequence.

4) Lots of letters are simply voiced versions of other letters. Such as, a V is a voiced F, a Z is a voiced S. The S in "treasure" is a voiced 'sh' sound.

5) Some letters are redundant. The C is either a K or a S sound, the X we already covered.

6) We have, strictly speaking, 11 letters that cover vowel sounds (the short and long versions of the main five and the y) but at least two sounds that don't have their own letter: the 'oo' in "book" and the shwa sound (unless we start using the shwa again). There's also redundancy here in that the 'oo' in "pool" is also the 'u' in "duke".

7) Is a long 'I' its own sound? Vocalized as an American, it appears to be more of a short A terminated with a long E. Try it out loud. Sustain the long I sound for 10 seconds. It's "aaaaaaa" until you go "ee" at the very end.



...so, if we're really going to go on a "why don't we have one letter for 'th'" tirade, don't half-*** it. Rewrite the entire alphabet. Get back to me when you've figured out how to go about doing that and mapping it to your keyboard logically.

Wow, you didn't get the point of þis topic at ALL. Þe point of þis topic was to bring back a very useful letter back to the English alphabet, not rewrite it entirely. Please actually read þhe topic before posting. Þe WHOLE topic.

[LaRoza]

Oh, sorry, must have missed the "foreigners not allowed here"-sign


Why is everyone so touchy!? This is the internet. This thread isn't an official attempt to change anything.

It was for English speakers, not "foreigners", whatever that means. Why? Because this concerns English only. It would make little sense to have non native speakers Hindi/Marathi/Nepali giving input on whether Devanagari should have the Chandrabindu in all cases of nasalisation (except when following a character extents above the top line), or if the bindu alone is enough for proper writing, not because of any sort of "not allowed here" attitudes but because that is silly.


how is "Þ" pronounced. i know its called Þorn but is it the hard "th" like "thunder"? or is it the soft th like "The"


In English, both. In other languages that use ð and þ, "ðe" == The, and "þunder" == Thunder.


The difference is that "nitrate" is one word and there is no gap between the syllables whereas "night rate" is two words so there should be a discernible pause between the two syllables.

No there is no pause. The difference is aspiration. Didn't hear that did you?



There is no need whatsoever to replace th with your symbol in English.
Sadly some of the more impressionable forum members seem to have jumped on your bandwagon of affectation.

Um, "my symbol"? It was the original symbol for it ;) I don't think it is fair to judge people who happen to agree as "more impressionable", they have valid opinions and probably realise the less serious nature of the internet. It isn't a bandwagon. Why so judgemental? It is just an oppurtunity to learn, at least, that is how I found it, by trying to improve my knowledge.


Sigh... If we want to make the case of having one letter for "th", then we'd better be prepared for a lot of other stuff:

Why? This is just for getting rid of a past replacement, not replacing things that have stood for so long.



1) Are we talking the "th" in "thick" or the one in "those"? Two different sounds. Better have two letters.

Once again, both. In English of all forms, þ and ð are intermingled. They aren't in other languages.



2) Why only th? What about sh and ch? You might be able to make the claim that a ch is a t in front of an sh, but that's still one sound. Also the "ng" noise.

Do they have symbols in common use in the past? If so, please post them. I am interested in learning.



3) You'd better be ready to separate the X into two letters. It's not one sound, after all, it's just a k and an s in sequence.

In some words, yes. I think the varations in spelling in English words reflect their roots, so changing them should take into account it would obscure their origin.



4) Lots of letters are simply voiced versions of other letters. Such as, a V is a voiced F, a Z is a voiced S. The S in "treasure" is a voiced 'sh' sound.

So?



5) Some letters are redundant. The C is either a K or a S sound, the X we already covered.

Again, origins.



6) We have, strictly speaking, 11 letters that cover vowel sounds (the short and long versions of the main five and the y) but at least two sounds that don't have their own letter: the 'oo' in "book" and the shwa sound (unless we start using the shwa again). There's also redundancy here in that the 'oo' in "pool" is also the 'u' in "duke".

Again, origins.



7) Is a long 'I' its own sound? Vocalized as an American, it appears to be more of a short A terminated with a long E. Try it out loud. Sustain the long I sound for 10 seconds. It's "aaaaaaa" until you go "ee" at the very end.

Most English vowels are not pure.



...so, if we're really going to go on a "why don't we have one letter for 'th'" tirade, don't half-*** it. Rewrite the entire alphabet. Get back to me when you've figured out how to go about doing that and mapping it to your keyboard logically.
I am not rewriting the alphabet, just un-rewriting it ;)

Also, in the words of the immortal (performance of) Joker, "why so serious?"

[Le-Froid]

I think that the "þ" character looks too much like a p/b (depending on what word it is used on). Lets just keep things simple and use "th" :p

[SomeGuyDude]

I'm not "serious", but I -am- starting to notice people actually using that symbol in their posts and it's becoming a bit of an annoyance because my eyes aren't trained to parse that.

Also let's not forget how many OTHER symbols have changed over time, such as that goofy f-looking thing that was used as an S in a lot of words roundabout when the US Constitution was written.

[LaRoza]

and it's becoming a bit of an annoyance because my eyes aren't trained to parse that.

They will be.

[schauerlich]

I think that the "þ" character looks too much like a p/b (depending on what word it is used on). Lets just keep things simple and use "th" :p

Wouldn't it be simpler to have one character instead of two?

[talsemgeest]

No there is no pause. The difference is aspiration. Didn't hear that did you?
I'm afraid I didn't hear it either. I say the words "Nitrate" and "Night Rate" exactly the same. But maybe that's just my New Zealand accent though...


Also, in the words of the immortal (performance of) Joker, "why so serious?"
Couldn't agree more. ;)

[schauerlich]

I'm afraid I didn't hear it either. I say the words "Nitrate" and "Night Rate" exactly the same. But maybe that's just my New Zealand accent though...

"Nitrate" has a slight "ch" sound with the tr part. "Nay-chrate". Opposed to "Nayt-rate"

[Grant A.]

"Nitrate" has a slight "ch" sound with the tr part. "Nay-chrate". Opposed to "Nayt-rate"

That is still one of those dialect-borderline words though.

Some people say potato and others say potato. :P

[LaRoza]

"Nitrate" has a slight "ch" sound with the tr part. "Nay-chrate". Opposed to "Nayt-rate"

No, it has more aspiration.

Put your hand in front of your mouth, and say both ;)

[talsemgeest]

No, it has more aspiration.

Put your hand in front of your mouth, and say both ;)
Sorry, still exactly the same for me...

[LaRoza]

Sorry, still exactly the same for me...

How would you say it if you wanted to be absolutely clear?

[schauerlich]

No, it has more aspiration.

Put your hand in front of your mouth, and say both ;)

I know. I sacrificed a degree of accuracy in order to explain it in simpler terms.

[LaRoza]

I know. I sacrificed a degree of accuracy in order to explain it in simpler terms.

Yes, because the only way to express aspiration in English would be with an "h". This leads to it being mistaken for "þ". See all Indic words in English. "thug" for instance. That is an aspirated "t", not "þ".

[cevans]

Taking this further, I believe that the "U" should look much more dissimilar to the "V," as that is a similar problem. Also, the uppercase "I" should always have easily visible serifs to help differentiate it from a lowercase "l."

In most cases, visual differentiation of U and V isn't necessary.


It was needless complexity, however, "th" is also needless complexity".

Adding an extra letter also adds to complexity.


Ok, next letter to go will be "L". I hereby declare "l" will no longer be used (except for þis "l") and "rr" wirr be used instead. I hope y'arr wirr be happy now. Rretter murderers...

At least in /usr/share/words/dict, 'l' is an order of magnitude more frequent than 'th'. 'f' has three times as many uses.


Oh? It doesn't resemble it anymore þan a "b" ;)

I would say it is just your lack of familiarity wiþ it, so you'll get used to it (probably).

I would say that from a quick look at the letter shapes, 'þ' does in fact appear to be confusing. If one considers a poorly written letter, 'p' and 'b' are differentiated because one has a clear descender and the other a clear ascender; if the letter is written such that there is a slight ascender on p or descender on b, it is still much smaller than the correct line. 'þ', however, has an ascender and descender of equal length. Making equal length lines is hard, and if one is longer than the other, it can become difficult to differentiate between it and a poorly written 'b' or 'p'. Also, if part of a 'þ' is obscured, it can very easily look like either a 'b' or 'p'; the spell checking system in Firefox makes it look like a b, for example, due to the underlining obscuring the descender.

Additionally, 'b', 'p', and 'þ' would all be used in similar places, and thus there would be numerous opportunities for confusion (born, porn, þorn; ban, pan, þan; and so on).


I was going to vote but then noticed there was no accurate answer included in the poll for someone disagreeing with the OP, maybe we could add any of the following

I tend to take a rather dim view of such polls.

I also tend to find taking things far too seriously to be rather amusing.

[t0p]

I tend to take a rather dim view of such polls.


Polls are great, so long as you remember that the results are meaningless. This is valid for all polls, whether they are for Community Cafe posts or elections in the "real world".

On a related note: all Americans please remember that no matter who you vote for in the upcoming presidential election, one of the candidates will win. So you may as well not bother participating. Vote in a Community Cafe poll instead - make your vote mean something!

[talsemgeest]

How would you say it if you wanted to be absolutely clear?
Honestly, if I was to record myself saying "night rate" as clearly as I could, then edited out the space between the words it would be exactly the same as if I had said "nitrate."

[kaldor]

Þorn is a very ancient looking letter and I love it :)

But on this topic, what is the difference between Þþ, Ðð and Ðđ?

[blithen]

Þorn is very fancy. At first I was like "For the return of porn" Uhh...Þen I was even more shocked when when I saw who made Þe Þread.
Also can I bind Þorn to a key somehow to make it easier Þen going Þrough the whole alt+shift+u business?

[kaldor]

Also, sorry for the double post, but why did English stop using the letters Þ and Ð? It seems so much easier to read when you do not have to join other letters together to make one sound.. makes learning a language easier too I think.

[LaRoza]

Also, sorry for the double post, but why did English stop using the letters Þ and Ð? It seems so much easier to read when you do not have to join other letters together to make one sound.. makes learning a language easier too I think.

It was used in Old English, and middle English to a degree, but became rarer and less distinguishable from "y" from middle English to modern English. From the little I can find, it seems to have been phased out slowly, and replaced with "y" because of typesets from countries who didn't use that sound (France and Germany), then became fully "th".

[schauerlich]

"thug" for instance. That is an aspirated "t", not "þ".

I pronounce ðe "th" in "thug" ðe same as I would ðe "th" in "think."

[LaRoza]

I pronounce ðe "th" in "thug" ðe same as I would ðe "th" in "think."

Þat is not how it is supposed to be said. Þat is exactly why þorn is needed.

"th" is þe transliteration of ठ, which is pronounced like þe last "t" in "lighthouse", but retroflex. It was written as "th", and the next þing you know, you have the British saying "þuggee", and spreading it around.

[FuturePilot]

Þis is starting to grow on me. :D

[kaldor]

We should start to use þe þorn as much as possible. We could try to revive þe old letter, I have always liked þe way it looks in Icelandic.

[schauerlich]

Þat is not how it is supposed to be said.

Þat's ðhe only way I've heard it pronounced. I have a generic "Midwestern" accent (even ðough I'm from California), so perhaps it's an east coast þing?

[kaldor]

From my knowledge, þe "Ð" is not supposed to be used at þe beginning of a word? Or is þis only in Icelandic/Old Norse?

[LaRoza]

Þat's ðhe only way I've heard it pronounced. I have a generic "Midwestern" accent (even ðough I'm from California), so perhaps it's an east coast þing?

No, it is spoken improperly by all English speakers (unless they know what it really is, or have a speech problem)

[John Jason Jordan]

In English, þ and ð are allophones.

First, in English until the middle of the Middle English period the thorn and the eth were used interchangeably. And oddly, either could be the voiced or the voiceless form (in IPA [ð] and [θ]).

But assuming you use þ as the voiceless sound and ð for the voiced sound, it is not correct to say that they are allophones in present day English. There are two proofs.

First, no English word with ð can be pronounced with a θ, and vice-versa. For segments to be allophones requires that they be interchangeable, at least in certain environments.

Secondly, there is a minimal pair for the two - 'thigh' and 'thy.' For linguists the existence of a minimal pair is the final proof.

English speakers know they are different sounds. They are not consciously aware of it, but they are not consciously aware of 99% of what they do when they speak their language. (Nor are speakers of any other language any more aware of what they do when they speak their languages.)

There is not a linguistics text that I know of that claims that ð and θ are allophones. They are totally phonemically contrastive in English.

The reason some people in this thread believe that they are the same sound is because they have confused the visual language with the spoken language. Phonemes exist in the spoken language. Orthography is irrelevant. That we spell both sounds with 'th' is a stupid accident of history which has nothing to do with English phonology.

[kaldor]

On another note, why did English lose letters like "æ" as well as þ?

[macogw]

Ðis letter is þe reason so many people þink signs in Medieval images say "Ye olde..." when in actuality they say "Þe olde..." A calligraphed Þ would have looked very similar to a calligraphed Y. Ðere's also the interesting abbreviations þat were used in þe past. For example, if you look at http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Library/2036/periodcallig.html you'll see þat a þ with a t on top is "þat" and a þ with an e on top is "þe".

[John Jason Jordan]

Ðis letter is þe reason so many people þink signs in Medieval images say "Ye olde..." when in actuality they say "Þe olde..." A calligraphed Þ would have looked very similar to a calligraphed Y. Ðere's also the interesting abbreviations þat were used in þe past. For example, if you look at http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Library/2036/periodcallig.html you'll see þat a þ with a t on top is "þat" and a þ with an e on top is "þe".

From Algeo and Pyles, The Origin and Development of the English Language, Thomson-Wadsworth, 2005, relating to the ME period:

"In a few words, especially _the_ and _thee_ but also a number of others, early printed books sometimes used _y_ to represent the sounds usually spelled _th_. This substitution was made because the letter _ƿ_ was still much used in writing English, but the early printers got their type fonts from the Continent, where the letter _ƿ_ was not a part of normal orthography. So they substituted for the _ƿ_ the closest thing they found in the foreign fonts, namely _y_. For example, _the_ was sometimes printed ye [e is superscript] and that same spelling was used for the pronoun _thee_. The plural pronoun meaning 'you all,' on the other hand, was written _ye_ [without superscript]. When the _e_ was above the line, the _y_ was always a makeshift for _ƿ_, and never to be interpreted as [y]."

Somewhere I also have a reproduction of a letter written during this period in which the thorn is written as a y. The problem was that in handwriting the thorn and the y are written so much the same that people confused them. Ultimately the issue discussed by Algeo and Pyles and the letter (that I cannot find) resulted in modern obscenities such as "Ye Olde Pie Shoppe." The "Ye" was really "The."

[koenn]

Sigh... If we want to make the case of having one letter for "th", then we'd better be prepared for a lot of other stuff:

1) Are we talking the "th" in "thick" or the one in "those"? Two different sounds. Better have two letters.

2) Why only th? What about sh and ch? You might be able to make the claim that a ch is a t in front of an sh, but that's still one sound. Also the "ng" noise.


5) Some letters are redundant. The C is either a K or a S sound, the X we already covered.

[....]

...so, if we're really going to go on a "why don't we have one letter for 'th'" tirade, don't half-*** it. Rewrite the entire alphabet. Get back to me when you've figured out how to go about doing that and mapping it to your keyboard logically.

Sounds like a plan, a lot of languages do this (and have corresponding keyboard maps ) :
- The Cyrillic alphabet was developed to easily represent the sounds used in Slavic languages. E.g. they use separate characters to represent their s, sh and ch sounds, a.o.
- Slavic languages that use a Latin alphabet also have specific characters for those sounds, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_alphabet
- Scandinavian languages also use extended alphabets to include typical vowels such as ø,ö,æ,å,ä, ... These are considered characters in their own right, not just a special form of a or o.

[mthakur2006]

@ La Roza:

Are you from India? Or do you know hindi?

[lyceum]

In old English they used a letter that looked like a fancy "y" for "th". So when you see "Ye Old Shopppe" it should really be pronounced "Thee Old Shop". I have always hated that "they" took that letter out. How "T" and "H" make a "th" sound is beyond me.

so, +1 for your Nordic letter.

[gn2]

The difference is that "nitrate" is one word and there is no gap between the syllables whereas "night rate" is two words so there should be a discernible pause between the two syllables.



No there is no pause. The difference is aspiration. Didn't hear that did you?

In nitrate the t flows into the r.

In night rate it doesn't, it's two separate words and there should be an identifiable gap between the two.

Gap in the words, gap in the speech.

Otherwisethemeaningwouldbelostandyouwouldnaekenwha tthehellpeoplewereonaboutwouldyou?.

[pp.]

Otherwisethemeaningwouldbelostandyouwouldn'tknowwh atthehellpeoplewereonaboutwouldyou?.

Thats not all that unlike the way people usually speak. As far as I can tell no one does audible gaps between words in those languages I am accustomed to hearing.

People doing gaps between words come across as unnaturally speaking. Gaps used to be needed when speaking to speech recognition systems.

[Bölvaður]

Otherwisethemeaningwouldbelostandyouwouldnaekenwha tthehellpeoplewereonaboutwouldyou?.

In the old days this would have been the normal way of writing with a small differentiation. It would have had capital letter in beginning of words, that is why I is written wiþ capital I still today.

OtherWiseTheMeaningWouldBeLostAndYouWoludNaekenWha tTheHellPeopleWereOnAboutWouldYou?

But þid þread is about ðe Þorn which was first used in the English as part of ðe normal alphabet. It later got changed because, first of all, ðe monks began trying to write þ in a fancy way ðat later got confused wiþ oþer letters. And also because of latin which used th for ð and þ. So þ got tossed out for ðe th (I'd blame ðe France and ðe Caþolic church).

So tossing it out could be viewed as a mistake unless if your village has ðe strangest accent ever and saying th as Thhhhh, like toe that replaces the "oe" with hhhh....


Þ should also not be confused wiþ Ð. I cannot remember anyone saying th wið only þ sound.. scots go for ðe Ð more þan þ, but ðey still use different sounds.

As I am in Iceland now I cannot ask people if ðey can hear ðe difference so I asked ðem on IM.

Yorkshire :


Yorkshire guy: we say theft feft
Yorkshire guy: and we say the the

Manchester :


Me: does "the" and "thieve" have the same sound for th?
Manchester guy: no

I'll get more people later. But it seems regional, perhaps LaRoza is from one of ðose ðat do not hear ðe difference.

[LaRoza]

@ La Roza:

Are you from India? Or do you know hindi?

I am learning Hindi :-)


In nitrate the t flows into the r.

In night rate it doesn't, it's two separate words and there should be an identifiable gap between the two.

Gap in the words, gap in the speech.

Otherwisethemeaningwouldbelostandyouwouldnaekenwha tthehellpeoplewereonaboutwouldyou?.

Not, it is more aspirated, unless you speak like espeak.

[gn2]

Not, it is more aspirated, unless you speak like espeak.

I'm unable to discern what you mean from this comment.

[LaRoza]

I'm unable to discern what you mean from this comment.

Most people when speaking do not pause between words. To prove this, watch any monologue in a movie in a language you don't know, and tell me the individual words that are being spoken. Their may be pauses occasionaly, if there is thinking or hesitation, but most of the time, there are no pauses.

The "t" in "night" is more aspirated than the first "t" in "nitrate".

[talsemgeest]

Most people when speaking do not pause between words. To prove this, watch any monologue in a movie in a language you don't know, and tell me the individual words that are being spoken. Their may be pauses occasionaly, if there is thinking or hesitation, but most of the time, there are no pauses.

The "t" in "night" is more aspirated than the first "t" in "nitrate".
Not the way I say it...

[LaRoza]

Not the way I say it...

Well, I'm sure you will work on that ;)

[gn2]

The "t" in "night" is more aspirated than the first "t" in "nitrate".

What do you mean by "aspirated" in this context?

[LaRoza]

What do you mean by "aspirated" in this context?

It is a more emphasised exhalation. Often described as a "puff of air" when you say the letter.

[gn2]

It is a more emphasised exhalation. Often described as a "puff of air" when you say the letter.

In which case, yes the t in night would have more emphasis.

As for speaking words without pauses, as someone who has a safety critical job where voice communications are "mission critical" I can assure you that speaking without proper pauses only leads to misunderstanding and inaccuracy.

Just as one should strive to write clearly one should strive to communicate clearly.
Using obsolete archaic characters doesn't assist with clarity in communications.

So I'm firmly against the use of Þ.

[LaRoza]

In which case, yes the t in night would have more emphasis.
It is an entirely different sound in other languages (various Chinese languages and Hindi for example). They have those sounds, "t" and "th" (th as aspirated t, not þ) as separate as English has "r" and "l" separate.



As for speaking words without pauses, as someone who has a safety critical job where voice communications are "mission critical" I can assure you that speaking without proper pauses only leads to misunderstanding and inaccuracy.

Pauses are usually reserved for clauses, not words, in conversation. For air traffic controllers, dispatchers, etc, it may be different of course ;)



Just as one should strive to write clearly one should strive to communicate clearly.
Using obsolete archaic characters doesn't assist with clarity in communications.

Why are the obsolete and archaic if they are in standard common use in other languages?

[gn2]

Why are the obsolete and archaic if they are in standard common use in other languages?

Because English is not other languages.

[LaRoza]

Because English is not other languages.

I would say the ancient runes are obsolete and archaic, not anything that is in widespread modern use. Going by definitions. þ is not obsolete or archaic, because the definitions: http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=obsolete, http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=archaic

[gn2]

I would say the ancient runes are obsolete and archaic, not anything that is in widespread modern use. Going by definitions. þ is not obsolete or archaic, because the definitions: http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=obsolete, http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=archaic

Definitely obsolete and archaic as far as English is concerned.

It's no longer in use in English, hasn't been for hundreds of years.

Other languages are irrelevant.

But I suppose it does have a use as an emoticon for a man in a bowler hat (-:þ

[LaRoza]

Definitely obsolete and archaic as far as English is concerned.

It's no longer in use in English, hasn't been for hundreds of years.

Perhaps, but the character itself isn't.



Other languages are irrelevant.
Well, I wouldn't put it that way ;)

[mssever]

I haven't read ðis entire þread, so perhaps ðis has been stated already. Ð is the voiced th sound, while þ is unvoiced. Ðerefore, writing “þis” or someþing similar is incorrect.

By ðe way, ðe spelling th is perfectly reasonable, since h is often used as a modifier. For example, f is aspirated and p is unaspirated. Otherwise, ðey're ðe same sound. So ph is an aspirated p. Likewise, th is an aspirated (voiced or unvoiced) t.

[John Jason Jordan]

I haven't read ðis entire þread, so perhaps ðis has been stated already. Ð is the voiced th sound, while þ is unvoiced. Ðerefore, writing “þis” or someþing similar is incorrect.

By ðe way, ðe spelling th is perfectly reasonable, since h is often used as a modifier. For example, f is aspirated and p is unaspirated. Otherwise, ðey're ðe same sound. So ph is an aspirated p. Likewise, th is an aspirated (voiced or unvoiced) t.

First, the last time the thorn and the eth were used in English was the early Middle English period. From the beginning of English (Old Eglish or Anglo-Saxon) the thorn and the eth were used interchangeably, and either could be voiced or voiceless. Strange that the speakers did not distinguish them, but having studied the Old English corpus extensively I know what I am talking about. Having said that, in other languages where they are used, the thorn is voiceless and the eth is voiced. It's just that that is not the way they were ever used in English. Either could be voiced or voiceless.

As for f and p, they are not at all the same in English. The sound of f is a voiceless labiodental fricative. The sound of p is a voiceless bilabial stop. So both the place and manner of articulation are different. Only the voicing is the same.

To further clarify, in English the p and the b (both stops) are the same except for voicing. The f and the v (both fricatives) are the same except for voicing.

[DanTheFlyingMan]

Why did you have to start this horribly obnoxious fad? It's really irritating seeing people using archaic letters in an attempt to look clever.

[Daggo]

is þ a vowel? Cuz I tried to buy one while playing Wheel of Fortune and they wouldnt let me.

[schauerlich]

Why did you have to start this horribly obnoxious fad? It's really irritating seeing people using archaic letters in an attempt to look clever.

Why so serious?

[LaRoza]

Why did you have to start this horribly obnoxious fad? It's really irritating seeing people using archaic letters in an attempt to look clever.

It isn't a fad. Look up the definition of "fad" ;) And don't assume intention. So many times people are telling me why I do things, without really thinking about it, or understanding. It is really irritating to see people being overly serious on the internet ;) If you don't like it, don't use it. No need to post to look clever.

And, in the words of the immortal Joker, "Why so serious?"


is þ a vowel? Cuz I tried to buy one while playing Wheel of Fortune and they wouldnt let me.

No, it is the "th" sound ;)

[pp.]

...being overly serious on the internet ;) If you don't like it, don't use it.

Thanks for the advice. From now on, I won't read that particular glyph anymore when and wherever I see it in a text I am reading.

If any text is worth reading it is worth writing in a manner that it can, in fact, be read by the target audience.

[jespdj]

It looks too much like the P.

I thought your post said "For the Return of Porn!" :eek:

[LowSky]

Languages evolve. Lets not use þ, its nostalgic to maybe someone from 1100CE but in the 2008 it rather stupid to try to resurrect a letter that looks like Dilbert's ear. http://www.trendsspotting.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/dilbert.jpg

Lets move on, and shorten words farther and all write like we do in cell phone instant messages. l8r

[ZuLuuuuuu]

Sorry, I couldn't read all of the posts but this mentallity leads to a change of the whole English language. Namely, you suggest making the English "read as you write". So every sound has its own letter, and does not change depending on context, like "o" in "love" and "own".

If you are interested in such languages, I suggest learning Turkish :) We have a letter for every sound -we use- which does not change in context. We don't have "th", though. Interesting letters in Turkish (actually these are sounds which you use but don't have a letter for it):

sh => ş (sch in German)
ch => ç
eu => ö (Like in word "Europe")

Also you create a rare vowel when sayin "the" (the sound you create after the þ sound). You create it also in "tion" like in "caption", "transition" etc. but you don't have a letter for it, which is in Turkish, "ı", i without dot.

[LaRoza]

If you are interested in such languages, I suggest learning Turkish :) We have a letter for every sound -we use- which does not change in context. We don't have "th", though. Interesting letters in Turkish (actually these are sounds which you use but don't have a letter for it):

Hindi is like that as well :-)



sh => ş (sch in German)
ch => ç
eu => ö (Like in word "Europe")

sh == श
ch == च

"eu" sounds like a dipthong which doesn't exist in Hindi or Sanksrit, so writing it would be awkward.

There are two other letters for the above sounds, because the sounds of Hindi are more precise than English, but English speakers wouldn't be able to hear the difference.

[Idefix82]

Lets move on, and shorten words farther and all write like we do in cell phone instant messages. l8r

You have a pretty nostalgic style of writing. What you should have written is:
les muv on an shortn words father an al rite like we do in sms.

On a serious note, considering that typing on a keyboard is very fast, I really don't see why we should mutilate the language and make it so much harder to read. Personally, it would take me some time to decipher something like
u 8 my biscit m8

[pp.]

"eu" sounds like a dipthong which doesn't exist in Hindi or Sanksrit, so writing it would be awkward.

From the description I think that by "ö" as in "Europe" the french pronounciation of "Europe" was meant. That would - very roughly indeed - correspond to the vowel in "turn" in english ("real" english english). Perhaps someone can come up with a closer equivalent.

[LaRoza]

From the description I think that by "ö" as in "Europe" the french pronounciation of "Europe" was meant. That would - very roughly indeed - correspond to the vowel in "turn" in english ("real" english english). Perhaps someone can come up with a closer equivalent.

I don't know how the French say it, but from your description, उ would be close enough.

I don't know what "real" english english is. If you are referring to one of the many British accents, it would help to specify which one ;)

[-grubby]

It isn't a fad. Look up the definition of "fad" ;) And don't assume intention. So many times people are telling me why I do things, without really thinking about it, or understanding. It is really irritating to see people being overly serious on the internet ;) If you don't like it, don't use it. No need to post to look clever.


It is incredibly annoying to see these characters used outside of this thread

[pp.]

It is incredibly annoying to see these characters used outside of this thread

Yes, I can see some hoþeads starting a war on proper abuse of hiëroglyvs.

[LaRoza]

It is incredibly annoying to see these characters used outside of this thread

Well, I don't use them outside this thread...

[DanTheFlyingMan]

It isn't a fad. Look up the definition of "fad"

I don't need to look up the word fad, I know perfectly well what it means. The forums are littered with idiots using an obsolete letter, and in a month or so (probably even less) most of them will have stopped. That is pretty much the definition of a fad. And don't pull any of that "it isn't a fad because the letter has existed for a very long time" crap; the letter itself isn't the fad, using it in modern English is.


And don't assume intention. So many times people are telling me why I do things, without really thinking about it, or understanding.

You started a thread promoting the use of an obscure letter in a forum filled with some of the most impressionable dolts with giant superiority complexes on the Internet. If you couldn't predict this would happen, then something is wrong with you.


It is really irritating to see people being overly serious on the internet

While unintentional, it feels good to see I've annoyed you.


If you don't like it, don't use it. No need to post to look clever.

Not using it doesn't stop me stumbling across this crap. Half the posts that include the letter seem to be so devoid of content that I am convinced they were made simply so the poster can show off.


And, in the words of the immortal Joker, "Why so serious?"

Oh good, I hadn't heard a movie catchphrase in such a long time.

[pp.]

Oh good,

While I find the abuse of obscure glyphs somewhat annoying, I think you are taking that a bit too serious.

[gn2]

Well, I don't use them outside this thread...

But other posters do.

You started this nonsense therefore you are responsible.

[Joeb454]

I think a couple of people need to cool down a little. This is only one of many webpages on the internet.

I'll re-open the thread later today or tomorrow.

[KiwiNZ]

I think a couple of people need to cool down a little. This is only one of many webpages on the internet.

I'll re-open the thread later today or tomorrow.

It is better to put it to rest permanently